Making Magic More Mutable [Archive] - Wizards Community

Making Magic More Mutable [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
adimeadozen
08-06-05, 06:35 PM Making Magic More Mutable as a force.
One thing, straight off, I'm sorry if this isn't the most appropriate forum, I figured maybe it'd fit better in Unearthed Arcana and House Rules, but it seemed to contain a little wider range of things.

My group and I have been considering some variant rules and I have been considering trying some different setting aspects. Before I start to explain let me say that my group understands the system quite well and they're all fairly experienced players, understanding and coming to grips with the changes from normal most likely wouldn't be an issue. Though we've got no issues with the game I'm currently running, making a world takes time and it's something I've been looking into doing a little bit here and there.

So, the main two things we've been wanting to try are the Unearthed Arcana variants Recharge Magic and Generic Classes. After working around with these two for a while I've moved in quite a bit, so, let me try and explain the basics of this:

The universe this is set in is completely lacking Inner Planes (Positive/Negative/Fire/Water/Air/Earth) but instead of causing limits by this, I instead wanted to make elemental energy be derived from the Material plane (For example, without an Elemental plane of Earth, Manual of the Planes suggests you require an amount of homogenous soil or stone equal to that of an earth elemental, your spell would simply pull an earth elemental from the hillside).

In this same light, magic, in this world, is a very tangible, present force which basically flows from all things in nature (Usually linked to one element or another) and in this I've been considering having a varying existance of Elemental Plane-like features, for instance, certain places may have Enhanced or Impeded magic based upon thier terrain features (High mountain tops may cause [Air] magic to work as if Enhanced, and [Earth] magic to be impeded, maybe even to the extent of a torrential downpour creating a similar area affecting [Water] and [Fire] spells).
The above situations would also be manipulatable, but only if done so by non-magic means, for instance, if you set an forest on fire (while you may have more to worry about), [Fire] spells would be considered Enhanced if cast from or into that area, [Water] spells would be impeded, however this wouldn't happen if the forest had been caught on fire by use of a Fireball spell, because its magical fire manipulates the surrounding magical energies differently (Possibly then, creating a rainstorm with a spell may or may not be considered magical water, since the water is not created as with, say, create water)

Also, where places have been stripped bare of thier natural existance, spells would work differently as well, for instance, a city with stone walls, cobbled streets and compacted dirt ground would very likely be (technically) earth-dominant in this system, however, being stripped of everything else all spells that do not have an elemental type (or use positive/negative energy) would be considered Impeded, as well as [Air] spells because of the earth dominance. Magical energy still exists in cities, and those who wish to channel it in one way or another may still do so, it simply takes a little focus, for instance perhaps temples to good dieties (or maybe only those like Pelor) would be Postive-Dominant inside, those dedicated to evil dieties (or likewise only to those such as Nerull) would be Negative-Dominant. To accomodate those who wish not to interfere with nature, structures, roads and the like built with the distinct purpose of not interfering with the natural magical forces could be built in such a way that this did not happen.

In all of this I wanted Spellcasters (which is what all spell casters would be) to be powerful, but more affected by their surroundings. I would like magic to be quite present, but distinctly a primal force (it's constant existence going towards the explanation of Recharge magic). There is, of course, much more but this is all that I'm really iffy on, I like the sound of this idea, but I'm not sure how it will work in game, I've discussed it with two of my three players and they like the sound of it as well, however I figured I would see what others thought, and see if anyone here has used any of the variants I'm considering.

So, I suppose, what I'm really wondering is, has anyone used Generic Classes or Recharge Magic (though I didn't mention either much in here), and if so, how did it work/what did you think/etc., whether or not you feel the above system would work (or if its effects would be very present at all), if you feel it is sufficiently limiting spellcasters (for the sake of making up for the high-powered system of recharge magic, and that I would prefer spellcasters to be somewhat more uncommon than typical DnD) or, just anything else you would like to add, for instance, should you feel this is the worst idea in the history of the game, please let me know.

I'm almost certain I've left something out, if I figure it out, well, this line will be gone, but if you feel I'm missing an important link or piece of information, well, just say so.
Red_Bird_of_Chaos
08-06-05, 07:15 PM don't have access to unearthed arcana , so can't give my opinion on those optional rules.

your magic system sounds like it would be fun to play in though.

how would you change the power levels of spells? by increasing decreasing caster level ; or by a flat percentage , say +-10%. i kind of like percents more than caster levels , justs souds more interesting.
adimeadozen
08-06-05, 07:37 PM don't have access to unearthed arcana , so can't give my opinion on those optional rules.

Unfortunately they're both complicated to explain in short form, but Generic Classes (fairly well) cuts the number of classes down to three, Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster, allowing players to choose their class skills/good-poor saves/proficencies and using a system of bonus feats to let the players choose thier own class abilities.

What this means for Spellcasters is you can pick your caster ability score (Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma), you always cast like a sorceror and can choose your known spells from any of the Druid/Cleric/Wiz-Sor spells.

Recharge magic is a fairly powerful system, which removes the limit on how many spells you can cast per day, instead giving each spell a "recharge time," which dictates how long before you can cast a spell of that level again, a first level spellcaster, for example, casts a 1st level spell, they then must roll 1d4+1 to determine how many rounds before another 1st level spell may be cast, a 10th level sorceror doing the same would only have to wait 1d3 rounds, this is "General" recharge time, which is the set time for most combat and "expensive" spells, others have longer times, sometimes measured in hours (for instance, Wall of Iron has a recharge time of 12 hours, it's in the upper limits). The advantage being that there is no limit to how many such spells you can cast, only how often.

how would you change the power levels of spells? by increasing decreasing caster level ; or by a flat percentage , say +-10%. i kind of like percents more than caster levels , justs souds more interesting.

Well, if you're talking about the "enhanced" areas, typical "planar" settings say that they have some linked metamagic (usually extended, sometimes maximized/enlarged) effect applied to them, I was considering looking for something weaker, but it depends on how prevalent these changes would be, I figure.
If you mean simply making magic more powerful, magic itself has a greater connection to the material world than in typical DnD, for instance a spellcaster, given enough time to properly align his or her surroundings, and recite certain mundane rituals could manipulate the traits of the magic in their home, perhaps a particularly powerful spellcaster could cause his keep to have traits similar to a Subjective Directional gravity type (To each person within the area "Down" is thier own direction, and they may change it at will, basically), this is simply a random idea, shooting from the hip, but maybe it will help explain.
Red_Bird_of_Chaos
08-06-05, 07:49 PM yes i meant the enhanced areas.

it souds like your giving what might seem like some serious buffs to spellcasters. what kind of compensation will the warriours/experts have? could this fluctuation in magic strengths also be aplied to there magic items , ie a fire aligned sword being more powerfull where fire is enhanced but being weeker where water is enhanced???
adimeadozen
08-06-05, 08:12 PM it souds like your giving what might seem like some serious buffs to spellcasters. what kind of compensation will the warriours/experts have? could this fluctuation in magic strengths also be aplied to there magic items , ie a fire aligned sword being more powerfull where fire is enhanced but being weeker where water is enhanced???
I've got a few things set up to hopefully balance out the class difference, hopefully that shouldn't be an issue as long as the casting itself is balanced.
And, no, I figured it would be best to leave magical items out of it, magical items have their own unique properties in this world, it's just another one of those things I didn't go into, sorry.
adimeadozen
08-08-05, 03:44 PM Heh, I hate to, but *bump*
The only aspect I worry about Generic classes is the idea that they may run into a lack of interest in later levels, I've been thinking of using prestige classes on top of them, but there are many that wouldn't work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
adimeadozen 08-06-05, 06:35 PM	Making Magic More Mutable as a force. One thing, straight off, I'm sorry if this isn't the most appropriate forum, I figured maybe it'd fit better in Unearthed Arcana and House Rules, but it seemed to contain a little wider range of things. My group and I have been considering some variant rules and I have been considering trying some different setting aspects. Before I start to explain let me say that my group understands the system quite well and they're all fairly experienced players, understanding and coming to grips with the changes from normal most likely wouldn't be an issue. Though we've got no issues with the game I'm currently running, making a world takes time and it's something I've been looking into doing a little bit here and there. So, the main two things we've been wanting to try are the Unearthed Arcana variants Recharge Magic and Generic Classes. After working around with these two for a while I've moved in quite a bit, so, let me try and explain the basics of this: The universe this is set in is completely lacking Inner Planes (Positive/Negative/Fire/Water/Air/Earth) but instead of causing limits by this, I instead wanted to make elemental energy be derived from the Material plane (For example, without an Elemental plane of Earth, Manual of the Planes suggests you require an amount of homogenous soil or stone equal to that of an earth elemental, your spell would simply pull an earth elemental from the hillside). In this same light, magic, in this world, is a very tangible, present force which basically flows from all things in nature (Usually linked to one element or another) and in this I've been considering having a varying existance of Elemental Plane-like features, for instance, certain places may have Enhanced or Impeded magic based upon thier terrain features (High mountain tops may cause [Air] magic to work as if Enhanced, and [Earth] magic to be impeded, maybe even to the extent of a torrential downpour creating a similar area affecting [Water] and [Fire] spells). The above situations would also be manipulatable, but only if done so by non-magic means, for instance, if you set an forest on fire (while you may have more to worry about), [Fire] spells would be considered Enhanced if cast from or into that area, [Water] spells would be impeded, however this wouldn't happen if the forest had been caught on fire by use of a Fireball spell, because its magical fire manipulates the surrounding magical energies differently (Possibly then, creating a rainstorm with a spell may or may not be considered magical water, since the water is not created as with, say, create water) Also, where places have been stripped bare of thier natural existance, spells would work differently as well, for instance, a city with stone walls, cobbled streets and compacted dirt ground would very likely be (technically) earth-dominant in this system, however, being stripped of everything else all spells that do not have an elemental type (or use positive/negative energy) would be considered Impeded, as well as [Air] spells because of the earth dominance. Magical energy still exists in cities, and those who wish to channel it in one way or another may still do so, it simply takes a little focus, for instance perhaps temples to good dieties (or maybe only those like Pelor) would be Postive-Dominant inside, those dedicated to evil dieties (or likewise only to those such as Nerull) would be Negative-Dominant. To accomodate those who wish not to interfere with nature, structures, roads and the like built with the distinct purpose of not interfering with the natural magical forces could be built in such a way that this did not happen. In all of this I wanted Spellcasters (which is what all spell casters would be) to be powerful, but more affected by their surroundings. I would like magic to be quite present, but distinctly a primal force (it's constant existence going towards the explanation of Recharge magic). There is, of course, much more but this is all that I'm really iffy on, I like the sound of this idea, but I'm not sure how it will work in game, I've discussed it with two of my three players and they like the sound of it as well, however I figured I would see what others thought, and see if anyone here has used any of the variants I'm considering. So, I suppose, what I'm really wondering is, has anyone used Generic Classes or Recharge Magic (though I didn't mention either much in here), and if so, how did it work/what did you think/etc., whether or not you feel the above system would work (or if its effects would be very present at all), if you feel it is sufficiently limiting spellcasters (for the sake of making up for the high-powered system of recharge magic, and that I would prefer spellcasters to be somewhat more uncommon than typical DnD) or, just anything else you would like to add, for instance, should you feel this is the worst idea in the history of the game, please let me know. I'm almost certain I've left something out, if I figure it out, well, this line will be gone, but if you feel I'm missing an important link or piece of information, well, just say so.
Red_Bird_of_Chaos 08-06-05, 07:15 PM	don't have access to unearthed arcana , so can't give my opinion on those optional rules. your magic system sounds like it would be fun to play in though. how would you change the power levels of spells? by increasing decreasing caster level ; or by a flat percentage , say +-10%. i kind of like percents more than caster levels , justs souds more interesting.
adimeadozen 08-06-05, 07:37 PM	don't have access to unearthed arcana , so can't give my opinion on those optional rules. Unfortunately they're both complicated to explain in short form, but Generic Classes (fairly well) cuts the number of classes down to three, Expert, Warrior, and Spellcaster, allowing players to choose their class skills/good-poor saves/proficencies and using a system of bonus feats to let the players choose thier own class abilities. What this means for Spellcasters is you can pick your caster ability score (Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma), you always cast like a sorceror and can choose your known spells from any of the Druid/Cleric/Wiz-Sor spells. Recharge magic is a fairly powerful system, which removes the limit on how many spells you can cast per day, instead giving each spell a "recharge time," which dictates how long before you can cast a spell of that level again, a first level spellcaster, for example, casts a 1st level spell, they then must roll 1d4+1 to determine how many rounds before another 1st level spell may be cast, a 10th level sorceror doing the same would only have to wait 1d3 rounds, this is "General" recharge time, which is the set time for most combat and "expensive" spells, others have longer times, sometimes measured in hours (for instance, Wall of Iron has a recharge time of 12 hours, it's in the upper limits). The advantage being that there is no limit to how many such spells you can cast, only how often. how would you change the power levels of spells? by increasing decreasing caster level ; or by a flat percentage , say +-10%. i kind of like percents more than caster levels , justs souds more interesting. Well, if you're talking about the "enhanced" areas, typical "planar" settings say that they have some linked metamagic (usually extended, sometimes maximized/enlarged) effect applied to them, I was considering looking for something weaker, but it depends on how prevalent these changes would be, I figure. If you mean simply making magic more powerful, magic itself has a greater connection to the material world than in typical DnD, for instance a spellcaster, given enough time to properly align his or her surroundings, and recite certain mundane rituals could manipulate the traits of the magic in their home, perhaps a particularly powerful spellcaster could cause his keep to have traits similar to a Subjective Directional gravity type (To each person within the area "Down" is thier own direction, and they may change it at will, basically), this is simply a random idea, shooting from the hip, but maybe it will help explain.
Red_Bird_of_Chaos 08-06-05, 07:49 PM	yes i meant the enhanced areas. it souds like your giving what might seem like some serious buffs to spellcasters. what kind of compensation will the warriours/experts have? could this fluctuation in magic strengths also be aplied to there magic items , ie a fire aligned sword being more powerfull where fire is enhanced but being weeker where water is enhanced???
adimeadozen 08-06-05, 08:12 PM	it souds like your giving what might seem like some serious buffs to spellcasters. what kind of compensation will the warriours/experts have? could this fluctuation in magic strengths also be aplied to there magic items , ie a fire aligned sword being more powerfull where fire is enhanced but being weeker where water is enhanced??? I've got a few things set up to hopefully balance out the class difference, hopefully that shouldn't be an issue as long as the casting itself is balanced. And, no, I figured it would be best to leave magical items out of it, magical items have their own unique properties in this world, it's just another one of those things I didn't go into, sorry.
adimeadozen 08-08-05, 03:44 PM	Heh, I hate to, but bump The only aspect I worry about Generic classes is the idea that they may run into a lack of interest in later levels, I've been thinking of using prestige classes on top of them, but there are many that wouldn't work.