Reversing the Condition of Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reversing the Condition of Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GoriceXII
04-16-07, 03:39 AM Is it possible to reverse the condition of an undead? My players may very well wish to do so in an upcoming game as some they will encounter will be NPCs that have been friendly to them.
Magrus
04-16-07, 03:45 AM Wish, Miracle, Divine Intervention...those are all possibilities I would say. Polymorph Any Object would be a temporary alteration. I would lean heavily towards the Divine Intervention end though. Getting a 17th level wizard to burn oodles of XP and gold to turn a zombie into a wood elf isn't a likely scenario. Questing to get a benign deity to see the undead character deserves it is more likely...if the DM wants it to happen.
kelvinaw273
04-16-07, 03:55 AM Well, you can make them dead again by smashing them up, I think. That reverses the condition of being UNdead, and makes them just plain dead.

... oh you want to make them alive ... hmmm. Not easily. So far as I know many forms of undead creation destroy, warp, rend or replace the soul, so they are then un-resurectable. It may be doable by way of using a Wish, but otherwise, not easy at all ...
Daydreamer
04-16-07, 04:09 AM i dont even think a wish could do this?

Id say an epic spell.
Definately a diety can do it.-and perhaps for his reason a miracle spell maybe....

if your dms lax on the rules, kill the undead , and raise the soul when its free with some other spell ;)
GoriceXII
04-16-07, 04:10 AM that's pretty much what I figured. The npc in question is the daughter of an old warlord the pcs are somewhat in debt to, and I felt sure they would not want to casually destroy her...however the spells you guys mention is certainly giving me the inklings of a quest for later of some kind.
Fuzzypaws
04-16-07, 04:13 AM Also, even though no spell currently exists to do this I think that a spell could certainly be researched in-game to perform the feat, and that 9th level sub-epic would not be out of line for it. Even if your party is not that powerful, there may be a 17th level caster in the world who might be able to research and cast such a thing. With a quest or two on his or her behalf or some other form of persuasion, he or she may not only be able but actually willing.
GoriceXII
04-16-07, 04:14 AM The pcs know of such a spellcaster, though certainly they also know him as a difficult and powerful old man who is not lightly bothered. Which is about perfect for what you suggest.
Magrus
04-16-07, 04:17 AM i dont even think a wish could do this?

Id say an epic spell.
Definately a diety can do it.-and perhaps for his reason a miracle spell maybe....

Technically a wish shouldn't be able to do it. For a plot type thing that has no true significance on game play or balance, why not though? Given the reason just listed, I wouldn't be picky. It's not like they're trying to bring the death knight of uberville back as a human or something.

Epic spell would be a definate yes with this though. It would be a hefty spell too. Transmutation and Necromancy blended with the Life Seed I think would work. That, or beg Pelor to forgo the smiting and save a wee girl.
GoriceXII
04-16-07, 04:59 AM Nevertheless I think it should be a LITTLE epic at least...I certainly don't want the pcs to just do the equivalent of popping the young woman in the 'de deadifier' and having her good as new.
Kouk
04-16-07, 06:20 AM Why are you all making such a fuss about this? True Resurrection says "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead and destroyed" it says you can't resurrect undead creatures, but that means you can't resurrect a lich and he will still be a lich. He would be human again.
GoriceXII
04-16-07, 06:40 AM Obviously I missed that particular phrase. Thank you for pointing it out.
Millennium
04-16-07, 06:50 AM You'd probably need an epic spell, or at the very least a wish or miracle, to reverse the condition of an undead being without destroying it first. However, others have already pointed out that you can use resurrection or true resurrection to revive a (previously) undead creature as whatever they were before becoming undead, if you destroy the undead first and its soul is willing.
Magrus
04-16-07, 06:52 AM Why are you all making such a fuss about this? True Resurrection says "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead and destroyed" it says you can't resurrect undead creatures, but that means you can't resurrect a lich and he will still be a lich. He would be human again.

Quoted from the sentance directly after your quote. This is why...
"This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures."
Dazzer
04-16-07, 07:04 AM Originally by: (SRD) Monsters Manual pg 317:
Ressurection and True Ressurection can effect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

These spells I believe have restriction either. Like: 1year/caster level for ress or 10 years/CL for true ress. That is the normal restriction.

It may be that the undead type postpones this restriction, or that it doesn't. That would be a DM's call in my opinion.

I hope this helps!
Magrus
04-16-07, 07:08 AM Bah for WiZo contradictions. :mad:
Kouk
04-16-07, 07:15 AM Ah, so even normal Res does it. Smash the thing's face in, then resurrect her.
daggeroflath
04-16-07, 08:22 AM Kill, then ressurrect. If you don't want it to look ugly and messy just get the cleric to cass cure "this is no laughing matter" wounds until the thing dies and then hit it with a raise ded.
RobbyPants
04-16-07, 10:24 AM Ah, so even normal Res does it. Smash the thing's face in, then resurrect her.
My players did this in a game I was running a couple months back. A close friend of one of the PCs became a vampire (but retained her neutral good alignment). She was ashamed of her status, and was fearful of reencountering the vampire that created her. So the PCs killed her creater, brought her to a powerful enough cleric, killed her, and ressurected her. That, and the following plot, made for a great month and a half of gaming!
GoriceXII
04-16-07, 01:47 PM That's kind of what I'm talking about--I'd rather have an adventure plot come of it than a fait accompli.
Thubby
04-16-07, 02:43 PM i thaught true res could un-undead a person
*scuries off to go check books*
EDIT: nope, my bad. you have to kill them first, then res them.
Daydreamer
04-16-07, 06:48 PM ya thats what i said earlier, you can destroy the ud and then bring the person back.
revnk
04-16-07, 07:59 PM Is it possible to reverse the condition of an undead? My players may very well wish to do so in an upcoming game as some they will encounter will be NPCs that have been friendly to them.

What do you think?

Seriously.

As a DM, you decide how the world works. Your only boundaries are what's fair, what's consistent, what's interesting, what's fun--the almighty rules are really only there to help you keep things fair and consistent.

If the rules don't explicitly have what you're looking for--and others here have suggested they might not--then use your imagination and your good judgment. Perhaps it's not possible to restore normal undead to life, but these undead are under a witch's curse and can be returned to life once a suitable quest has been performed. Perhaps any undead can be returned to life if certain extra-planar substances are combined on the Altar of Y'g'moraz--which lies within a mysterious temple that only appears one night a century... and is expected to reappear when the planets align in the constellation The Widow's House next month. Perhaps the dead god Ghaariim, Keeper Of Souls, will return an undead being's soul to it--restoring it to life--if a supplicant can offer something "equal" in trade. Perhaps any character of any level and class can do it if they perform the ritual set forth in the forbidden seventh volume of the Libris Infernus. Etc.

So ask yourself, is it possible? And how? Any answer you give that's fair and fun is correct!

Good luck!
Edymnion
04-16-07, 08:34 PM Technically a wish shouldn't be able to do it.Technically, Wish can do *ANYTHING*. The only limits are what it can safely do.Why are you all making such a fuss about this? True Resurrection says "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead and destroyed" it says you can't resurrect undead creatures, but that means you can't resurrect a lich and he will still be a lich. He would be human again.Quoted from the sentance directly after your quote. This is why...
"This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures."No contradiction here.
You can resurrect someone that used to be undead, but you cannot resurrect them AS undead.

As has been said, if you destroy a Lich and use it, you will get them back as a human/elf/whatever, you will not bring them back as a Lich.
GoriceXII
04-17-07, 03:26 AM I really appreciate all the advice. Thanks for those who have given it. I was mostly having trouble thinking outside the box and I hadn't access to my books and couldn't quite remember any of the spells that might have covered that. A lot of the ideas are very helpful.
Andorxor
04-17-07, 07:43 AM Technically, Wish can do *ANYTHING*. The only limits are what it can safely do.No contradiction here.
You can resurrect someone that used to be undead, but you cannot resurrect them AS undead.

As has been said, if you destroy a Lich and use it, you will get them back as a human/elf/whatever, you will not bring them back as a Lich.

This is a great way to get rid of of a Lich when you can't find his little soulbox.
Senevri
04-17-07, 08:18 AM This is a great way to get rid of of a Lich when you can't find his little soulbox.

Well... but is the lich destroyed, if you haven't broken his phylactery? If this works, what happens to the now-mortal lich after he dies? After all, he still HAS that whole phylactery of his.

Lich's life force is explicitly contained in his phylactery, which costs 120K, and thus is out of the set limits of what a Wish can do. I'd have to rule that as "No, you must destroy the phylactery first."

Perhaps you could, with a carefully worded wish, bring the lich's current body to a semblance of life: whole flesh, breathing, beating heart, needing to eat... OTOH, how long it would survive is questionable, since Liches run on negative energy. Tomb-tainted soul might be of use there.
Edymnion
04-17-07, 12:43 PM Well... but is the lich destroyed, if you haven't broken his phylactery? If this works, what happens to the now-mortal lich after he dies? After all, he still HAS that whole phylactery of his.If you haven't destroyed his phylactory, then you have not destroyed the lich. You have only destroyed his current body. Hence, the lich still "exists" and you can't bring him back. You must first DESTROY the undead, which in the case of a Lich means you have to first destroy his/her phylactory.
Lich's life force is explicitly contained in his phylactery, which costs 120K, and thus is out of the set limits of what a Wish can do. I'd have to rule that as "No, you must destroy the phylactery first."Again, outside the *SAFE* limits of what a Wish can do. People always forget that. What is spelled out in the spell description is simply what you can get without question, every time you cast the spell. If you want to Wish for a million gold pieces, odds are that you would get it, but the wish would be perverted, likely into having all 1 million gold pieces appear directly over your head.

There is *NO* set limit on what Wish can do. It's power concievably surpasses that of even the most powerful Epic level spell. Its just insanely difficult to control.
Corpsekin
04-18-07, 12:30 PM kill the undead creature then use a reserect spell on it, this only works if the undead wants to return to being alive again however.other then that i dont know of any other way of reversing an undead back down into a mortal. i do know that if you use resserection on an undead pc it loses any undead templates or monster levels it had
kyeudo
04-18-07, 12:38 PM Turning an undead back into a living creature requires that you first kill the undead creature, then use either Resurection, True Resurection, or a Wish used to duplicate a Resurection spell.

Note: the killing of the undead may cause significant pain to the subject, especialy to any intelligent undead, so your NPCs may remember being hacked apart by the PCs. Problematic with vampires, ghouls, and other spawning undead.
Senevri
04-18-07, 05:39 PM "Revive Undead", spell compendium.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoriceXII 04-16-07, 03:39 AM	Is it possible to reverse the condition of an undead? My players may very well wish to do so in an upcoming game as some they will encounter will be NPCs that have been friendly to them.
Magrus 04-16-07, 03:45 AM	Wish, Miracle, Divine Intervention...those are all possibilities I would say. Polymorph Any Object would be a temporary alteration. I would lean heavily towards the Divine Intervention end though. Getting a 17th level wizard to burn oodles of XP and gold to turn a zombie into a wood elf isn't a likely scenario. Questing to get a benign deity to see the undead character deserves it is more likely...if the DM wants it to happen.
kelvinaw273 04-16-07, 03:55 AM	Well, you can make them dead again by smashing them up, I think. That reverses the condition of being UNdead, and makes them just plain dead. ... oh you want to make them alive ... hmmm. Not easily. So far as I know many forms of undead creation destroy, warp, rend or replace the soul, so they are then un-resurectable. It may be doable by way of using a Wish, but otherwise, not easy at all ...
Daydreamer 04-16-07, 04:09 AM	i dont even think a wish could do this? Id say an epic spell. Definately a diety can do it.-and perhaps for his reason a miracle spell maybe.... if your dms lax on the rules, kill the undead , and raise the soul when its free with some other spell ;)
GoriceXII 04-16-07, 04:10 AM	that's pretty much what I figured. The npc in question is the daughter of an old warlord the pcs are somewhat in debt to, and I felt sure they would not want to casually destroy her...however the spells you guys mention is certainly giving me the inklings of a quest for later of some kind.
Fuzzypaws 04-16-07, 04:13 AM	Also, even though no spell currently exists to do this I think that a spell could certainly be researched in-game to perform the feat, and that 9th level sub-epic would not be out of line for it. Even if your party is not that powerful, there may be a 17th level caster in the world who might be able to research and cast such a thing. With a quest or two on his or her behalf or some other form of persuasion, he or she may not only be able but actually willing.
GoriceXII 04-16-07, 04:14 AM	The pcs know of such a spellcaster, though certainly they also know him as a difficult and powerful old man who is not lightly bothered. Which is about perfect for what you suggest.
Magrus 04-16-07, 04:17 AM	i dont even think a wish could do this? Id say an epic spell. Definately a diety can do it.-and perhaps for his reason a miracle spell maybe.... Technically a wish shouldn't be able to do it. For a plot type thing that has no true significance on game play or balance, why not though? Given the reason just listed, I wouldn't be picky. It's not like they're trying to bring the death knight of uberville back as a human or something. Epic spell would be a definate yes with this though. It would be a hefty spell too. Transmutation and Necromancy blended with the Life Seed I think would work. That, or beg Pelor to forgo the smiting and save a wee girl.
GoriceXII 04-16-07, 04:59 AM	Nevertheless I think it should be a LITTLE epic at least...I certainly don't want the pcs to just do the equivalent of popping the young woman in the 'de deadifier' and having her good as new.
Kouk 04-16-07, 06:20 AM	Why are you all making such a fuss about this? True Resurrection says "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead and destroyed" it says you can't resurrect undead creatures, but that means you can't resurrect a lich and he will still be a lich. He would be human again.
GoriceXII 04-16-07, 06:40 AM	Obviously I missed that particular phrase. Thank you for pointing it out.
Millennium 04-16-07, 06:50 AM	You'd probably need an epic spell, or at the very least a wish or miracle, to reverse the condition of an undead being without destroying it first. However, others have already pointed out that you can use resurrection or true resurrection to revive a (previously) undead creature as whatever they were before becoming undead, if you destroy the undead first and its soul is willing.
Magrus 04-16-07, 06:52 AM	Why are you all making such a fuss about this? True Resurrection says "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead and destroyed" it says you can't resurrect undead creatures, but that means you can't resurrect a lich and he will still be a lich. He would be human again. Quoted from the sentance directly after your quote. This is why... "This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures."
Dazzer 04-16-07, 07:04 AM	Originally by: (SRD) Monsters Manual pg 317: Ressurection and True Ressurection can effect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. These spells I believe have restriction either. Like: 1year/caster level for ress or 10 years/CL for true ress. That is the normal restriction. It may be that the undead type postpones this restriction, or that it doesn't. That would be a DM's call in my opinion. I hope this helps!
Magrus 04-16-07, 07:08 AM	Bah for WiZo contradictions. :mad:
Kouk 04-16-07, 07:15 AM	Ah, so even normal Res does it. Smash the thing's face in, then resurrect her.
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 08:22 AM	Kill, then ressurrect. If you don't want it to look ugly and messy just get the cleric to cass cure "this is no laughing matter" wounds until the thing dies and then hit it with a raise ded.
RobbyPants 04-16-07, 10:24 AM	Ah, so even normal Res does it. Smash the thing's face in, then resurrect her. My players did this in a game I was running a couple months back. A close friend of one of the PCs became a vampire (but retained her neutral good alignment). She was ashamed of her status, and was fearful of reencountering the vampire that created her. So the PCs killed her creater, brought her to a powerful enough cleric, killed her, and ressurected her. That, and the following plot, made for a great month and a half of gaming!
GoriceXII 04-16-07, 01:47 PM	That's kind of what I'm talking about--I'd rather have an adventure plot come of it than a fait accompli.
Thubby 04-16-07, 02:43 PM	i thaught true res could un-undead a person scuries off to go check books EDIT: nope, my bad. you have to kill them first, then res them.
Daydreamer 04-16-07, 06:48 PM	ya thats what i said earlier, you can destroy the ud and then bring the person back.
revnk 04-16-07, 07:59 PM	Is it possible to reverse the condition of an undead? My players may very well wish to do so in an upcoming game as some they will encounter will be NPCs that have been friendly to them. What do you think? Seriously. As a DM, you decide how the world works. Your only boundaries are what's fair, what's consistent, what's interesting, what's fun--the almighty rules are really only there to help you keep things fair and consistent. If the rules don't explicitly have what you're looking for--and others here have suggested they might not--then use your imagination and your good judgment. Perhaps it's not possible to restore normal undead to life, but these undead are under a witch's curse and can be returned to life once a suitable quest has been performed. Perhaps any undead can be returned to life if certain extra-planar substances are combined on the Altar of Y'g'moraz--which lies within a mysterious temple that only appears one night a century... and is expected to reappear when the planets align in the constellation The Widow's House next month. Perhaps the dead god Ghaariim, Keeper Of Souls, will return an undead being's soul to it--restoring it to life--if a supplicant can offer something "equal" in trade. Perhaps any character of any level and class can do it if they perform the ritual set forth in the forbidden seventh volume of the Libris Infernus. Etc. So ask yourself, is it possible? And how? Any answer you give that's fair and fun is correct! Good luck!
Edymnion 04-16-07, 08:34 PM	Technically a wish shouldn't be able to do it.Technically, Wish can do ANYTHING. The only limits are what it can safely do.Why are you all making such a fuss about this? True Resurrection says "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead and destroyed" it says you can't resurrect undead creatures, but that means you can't resurrect a lich and he will still be a lich. He would be human again.Quoted from the sentance directly after your quote. This is why... "This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures."No contradiction here. You can resurrect someone that used to be undead, but you cannot resurrect them AS undead. As has been said, if you destroy a Lich and use it, you will get them back as a human/elf/whatever, you will not bring them back as a Lich.
GoriceXII 04-17-07, 03:26 AM	I really appreciate all the advice. Thanks for those who have given it. I was mostly having trouble thinking outside the box and I hadn't access to my books and couldn't quite remember any of the spells that might have covered that. A lot of the ideas are very helpful.
Andorxor 04-17-07, 07:43 AM	Technically, Wish can do ANYTHING. The only limits are what it can safely do.No contradiction here. You can resurrect someone that used to be undead, but you cannot resurrect them AS undead. As has been said, if you destroy a Lich and use it, you will get them back as a human/elf/whatever, you will not bring them back as a Lich. This is a great way to get rid of of a Lich when you can't find his little soulbox.
Senevri 04-17-07, 08:18 AM	This is a great way to get rid of of a Lich when you can't find his little soulbox. Well... but is the lich destroyed, if you haven't broken his phylactery? If this works, what happens to the now-mortal lich after he dies? After all, he still HAS that whole phylactery of his. Lich's life force is explicitly contained in his phylactery, which costs 120K, and thus is out of the set limits of what a Wish can do. I'd have to rule that as "No, you must destroy the phylactery first." Perhaps you could, with a carefully worded wish, bring the lich's current body to a semblance of life: whole flesh, breathing, beating heart, needing to eat... OTOH, how long it would survive is questionable, since Liches run on negative energy. Tomb-tainted soul might be of use there.
Edymnion 04-17-07, 12:43 PM	Well... but is the lich destroyed, if you haven't broken his phylactery? If this works, what happens to the now-mortal lich after he dies? After all, he still HAS that whole phylactery of his.If you haven't destroyed his phylactory, then you have not destroyed the lich. You have only destroyed his current body. Hence, the lich still "exists" and you can't bring him back. You must first DESTROY the undead, which in the case of a Lich means you have to first destroy his/her phylactory. Lich's life force is explicitly contained in his phylactery, which costs 120K, and thus is out of the set limits of what a Wish can do. I'd have to rule that as "No, you must destroy the phylactery first."Again, outside the SAFE limits of what a Wish can do. People always forget that. What is spelled out in the spell description is simply what you can get without question, every time you cast the spell. If you want to Wish for a million gold pieces, odds are that you would get it, but the wish would be perverted, likely into having all 1 million gold pieces appear directly over your head. There is NO set limit on what Wish can do. It's power concievably surpasses that of even the most powerful Epic level spell. Its just insanely difficult to control.
Corpsekin 04-18-07, 12:30 PM	kill the undead creature then use a reserect spell on it, this only works if the undead wants to return to being alive again however.other then that i dont know of any other way of reversing an undead back down into a mortal. i do know that if you use resserection on an undead pc it loses any undead templates or monster levels it had
kyeudo 04-18-07, 12:38 PM	Turning an undead back into a living creature requires that you first kill the undead creature, then use either Resurection, True Resurection, or a Wish used to duplicate a Resurection spell. Note: the killing of the undead may cause significant pain to the subject, especialy to any intelligent undead, so your NPCs may remember being hacked apart by the PCs. Problematic with vampires, ghouls, and other spawning undead.
Senevri 04-18-07, 05:39 PM	"Revive Undead", spell compendium.