Simple yet "forgotten" tricks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Simple yet "forgotten" tricks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
boozerker
08-04-06, 05:08 PM Some obvious real world challenges are seemingly forgotten in D&D. And not any problems associated with communication, either. Nor those dealing with fear, pain or lust. No, these are far less personal and we tend to forget them until wham! it hits us, a common occurence in the real world that could be dropped into an adventure, with interesting results.

For instance, creative uses of lighting/shadow can enhance the DC of sneak checks. Sneaking across an open field when the sun is lower might cast long shadows that increase the "virtual" size of a PC -- and though a PC can be camouflaged, a lone dark shadow can't.

Imagine sneaking up to the guard's room, but your approach is given away by your own shadow? You'd have to put out the light first, but that also would be noticed.

The question is, if your shadow would betray your presence, do you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check to anticipate that before it's too late? I'd probably rule either.

Anyway, what other such tricks have you realized are so common in real life yet often overlooked in D&D?
necrom99
08-04-06, 05:16 PM umm....its really just a game.....and that is makin it too rules heavy, assume your skill point which are somewhat based on Int are just that
Archmage Atrus
08-04-06, 05:20 PM Er, dude, can't you simply conceptualize that this is what the Hide skill does for you?

The guy with the 20 ranks would know how to move with the light and shadow to avoid this. The guy with just the Dex bonus... not so much.
boozerker
08-04-06, 05:43 PM umm....its really just a game.....and that is makin it too rules heavy, assume your skill point which are somewhat based on Int are just that

It's not to make it rules heavy, but to enhance the DC. In the example of sneaking up to the guard's room, the PCs can lower the DC if they find a creative way to avoid the shadow problem (such as circle around to approach from the other way, spider climb over the doorway, etc).

Er, dude, can't you simply conceptualize that this is what the Hide skill does for you?

The guy with the 20 ranks would know how to move with the light and shadow to avoid this. The guy with just the Dex bonus... not so much.

As stated above, it's simply an enhancement for the DC, subject to change. For example, when sneaking across the field earlier in the day the DC would be easier, so that becomes an option, if night time would be too late.

Such nuances can add a touch of realism. However, you don't want to overuse these types of things, that's fine. But I still want to see ideas from other people.
Archmage Atrus
08-04-06, 05:45 PM Sure, except you already can't use Hide in a room that is well lit that doesn't have anywhere for you to hide behind. You likewise can't use Hide in a well lit room while you move if you don't have something concealing you from the bad guys.

So you're essentially stacking a penalty on top of an already existing penalty.
necrom99
08-04-06, 05:52 PM Sure, except you already can't use Hide in a room that is well lit that doesn't have anywhere for you to hide behind. You likewise can't use Hide in a well lit room while you move if you don't have something concealing you from the bad guys.

So you're essentially stacking a penalty on top of an already existing penalty.

right on the money!......if you really want to add to DC's I believe there is a list of things that add difficulty
boozerker
08-04-06, 06:26 PM Sure, except you already can't use Hide in a room that is well lit that doesn't have anywhere for you to hide behind. You likewise can't use Hide in a well lit room while you move if you don't have something concealing you from the bad guys.

So you're essentially stacking a penalty on top of an already existing penalty.
You're right when it comes to hiding on the field, but you can do it with camouflauge or Hide in Plain Sight. Yet you make a decent point, so let's say the full DC is applies for when shadows are longest, and earlier in the day you get a more desirable DC.

However, your logic doesn't apply to the guard's room. When sneaking up to it the wall covers you all the way to their door.

I'd just like to provide a way for the PCs to finagle with their surroundings to alter the DC creatively, in ways not normally done, for a fresh and unexpected result.

If you don't like the idea, can you provide better ones?
Archmage Atrus
08-04-06, 06:54 PM Nope. I think the system works fine as is. But, minor penalties/bonuses due to environmental causes are a good alternative.

I still don't think it should apply to hide checks, but I can see (and have used it to apply to) move silently checks. Particularly noisy ground - such as ground that has been deliberately made "crunchy" by the application of dried leaves, wet wood, whatever - should apply a penalty to move silently checks when trying to move through it.
Kradlo
08-04-06, 06:56 PM Well, in a game I ran, a blind diviner agreed to help a PC in return for his shadow. The PC agreed, and so the diviner withdrew a tiny silver scalpel and cut along the edge of the shadow. Then he scooped it up and stuffed it wriggling into his pouch with an evil grin.

When the PC returned to the group, he was happy to tell them the news he'd learned through divination magic. His elation turned to a different emotion when the other PCs reacted to their now shadowless comrade.

"He's not casting a shadow! He's turned into a vampire or something! Maybe we should kill him!"

It took a lot to keep them from killing him there and then. As it was, the PC then became something of a pariah in the city, as people were showing open aversion to the shadowless character.
boozerker
08-05-06, 09:12 AM :rofl: :heehee That some funny ****. The shadow wiggling, after cutting it, pretty creative.
swallowyersoul
09-03-06, 05:28 AM dude, you got hammered for your example when this post is a great idea.

skill checks can get pretty flat sometimes. setting up a situation where character decisions can create or alter a circumstance bonus is really very clever.

other examples i can think of...

a door out of the guard's line of sight. if the rogue can shut it quietly, the armored oafs get a nice, fat +10 or so to their move silently checks.

the locked and trapped chest is in deep shadows, but could probably be carried out into bright sunlight if anybody thinks of it.

an encounter with an animal that fears a single party member. if the character takes a walk, the ranger gets a reduction in his handle animal dc.

etc.
theblindman
09-03-06, 10:07 AM Yeah, I think finding ways to adjust environmental modifiers is a great idea. It adds an element of puzzle-play to an otherwise fairly drab roll.
boozerker
09-04-06, 03:56 AM dude, you got hammered for your example when this post is a great idea.

skill checks can get pretty flat sometimes. setting up a situation where character decisions can create or alter a circumstance bonus is really very clever.

other examples i can think of...

a door out of the guard's line of sight. if the rogue can shut it quietly, the armored oafs get a nice, fat +10 or so to their move silently checks.

the locked and trapped chest is in deep shadows, but could probably be carried out into bright sunlight if anybody thinks of it.

an encounter with an animal that fears a single party member. if the character takes a walk, the ranger gets a reduction in his handle animal dc.

etc.
Excellent examples. And what a surprise to see this post alive on the second page :)

Looking at it again, it might've gotten better reception in the skills section, since all the examples so far deal with skills. So we'll add some non-skill problems this time (instead of solutions).

The DC to lift a wooden crate doubles because it sat on mud a while.
Reflex save in knee-deep mud to prevent loose footwear from remaining stuck beneath.

Anyone who's experienced the above knows exactly how mud affects simple things like walking with sandals or lifting something wide even if it's only slightly stuck in it. Ha, if the DM wants the PC needs a reflex save to keep from falling backwards when the crate suddenly plops out of the mud (if the PC doesn't succeed at the Strength check by 5 or more).

Remember, use the problems once in a while only -- to add fun, and not too often! Just rarely enough to tickle..

That applies to the "solutions" to lower DCs too. Don't overuse!
RecycledDM
09-05-06, 12:39 PM Boozerker,

Environmental modifiers are awesome ways to spice up the mundane. I allow my PC's to try as many wacky ideas to boost their chances--on skills, attack rolls, defenses, even saving throws--as they can come up with.

Two recent examples (SPOILERS ALERT...):

1) I ran some newbies through the "What's Cooking" free adventure. When they met the calzone golem in the basement, one of the PC's broke a barrel of wine over the monster. It did minimal damage, but one of the other players said "doesn't that soften the crust?" Good idea...what the heck, take 2 off the monster's AC.

2) I later ran the same PC's through a modified form of the "Eye of the Sun" free adventure. After crossing the raging river, the rogue wants to sneak up on a lizardfolk guard. He says, "does the sound of the river give me a bonus to my Move Silently?" Hadn't thought of that...sure, +4 modifier.

These players now will try anything for a boost. They don't always get one, but I love to hear their creative pleas!
boozerker
09-05-06, 01:44 PM That is awesome RecycledDM. The river churning noise is an excellent idea, works with waterfalls too.

When they met the calzone golem in the basement, one of the PC's broke a barrel of wine over the monster. It did minimal damage, but one of the other players said "doesn't that soften the crust?" Good idea...what the heck, take 2 off the monster's AC.
:D :D Oh that's funny.
Arganis
09-05-06, 01:52 PM Any and all examples you could possibly think of are already accounted for in the rules for favorable and unfavorable conditions.

Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check.

The chance of success can be altered in four ways to take into account exceptional circumstances.

-Give the skill user a +2 circumstance bonus to represent conditions that improve performance, such as having the perfect tool for the job, getting help from another character (see Combining Skill Attempts), or possessing unusually accurate information.
-Give the skill user a –2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information.
-Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar.
-Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder, such as having an uncooperative audience or doing work that must be flawless.

Conditions that affect your character’s ability to perform the skill change the skill modifier. Conditions that modify how well the character has to perform the skill to succeed change the DC. A bonus to the skill modifier and a reduction in the check’s DC have the same result: They create a better chance of success. But they represent different circumstances, and sometimes that difference is important.

What more is there to say, really, except that yes, this rule is an often forgotten trick. Everyone here appears to have forgotten it while trying to reinvent the wheel.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boozerker 08-04-06, 05:08 PM	Some obvious real world challenges are seemingly forgotten in D&D. And not any problems associated with communication, either. Nor those dealing with fear, pain or lust. No, these are far less personal and we tend to forget them until wham! it hits us, a common occurence in the real world that could be dropped into an adventure, with interesting results. For instance, creative uses of lighting/shadow can enhance the DC of sneak checks. Sneaking across an open field when the sun is lower might cast long shadows that increase the "virtual" size of a PC -- and though a PC can be camouflaged, a lone dark shadow can't. Imagine sneaking up to the guard's room, but your approach is given away by your own shadow? You'd have to put out the light first, but that also would be noticed. The question is, if your shadow would betray your presence, do you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check to anticipate that before it's too late? I'd probably rule either. Anyway, what other such tricks have you realized are so common in real life yet often overlooked in D&D?
necrom99 08-04-06, 05:16 PM	umm....its really just a game.....and that is makin it too rules heavy, assume your skill point which are somewhat based on Int are just that
Archmage Atrus 08-04-06, 05:20 PM	Er, dude, can't you simply conceptualize that this is what the Hide skill does for you? The guy with the 20 ranks would know how to move with the light and shadow to avoid this. The guy with just the Dex bonus... not so much.
boozerker 08-04-06, 05:43 PM	umm....its really just a game.....and that is makin it too rules heavy, assume your skill point which are somewhat based on Int are just that It's not to make it rules heavy, but to enhance the DC. In the example of sneaking up to the guard's room, the PCs can lower the DC if they find a creative way to avoid the shadow problem (such as circle around to approach from the other way, spider climb over the doorway, etc). Er, dude, can't you simply conceptualize that this is what the Hide skill does for you? The guy with the 20 ranks would know how to move with the light and shadow to avoid this. The guy with just the Dex bonus... not so much. As stated above, it's simply an enhancement for the DC, subject to change. For example, when sneaking across the field earlier in the day the DC would be easier, so that becomes an option, if night time would be too late. Such nuances can add a touch of realism. However, you don't want to overuse these types of things, that's fine. But I still want to see ideas from other people.
Archmage Atrus 08-04-06, 05:45 PM	Sure, except you already can't use Hide in a room that is well lit that doesn't have anywhere for you to hide behind. You likewise can't use Hide in a well lit room while you move if you don't have something concealing you from the bad guys. So you're essentially stacking a penalty on top of an already existing penalty.
necrom99 08-04-06, 05:52 PM	Sure, except you already can't use Hide in a room that is well lit that doesn't have anywhere for you to hide behind. You likewise can't use Hide in a well lit room while you move if you don't have something concealing you from the bad guys. So you're essentially stacking a penalty on top of an already existing penalty. right on the money!......if you really want to add to DC's I believe there is a list of things that add difficulty
boozerker 08-04-06, 06:26 PM	Sure, except you already can't use Hide in a room that is well lit that doesn't have anywhere for you to hide behind. You likewise can't use Hide in a well lit room while you move if you don't have something concealing you from the bad guys. So you're essentially stacking a penalty on top of an already existing penalty. You're right when it comes to hiding on the field, but you can do it with camouflauge or Hide in Plain Sight. Yet you make a decent point, so let's say the full DC is applies for when shadows are longest, and earlier in the day you get a more desirable DC. However, your logic doesn't apply to the guard's room. When sneaking up to it the wall covers you all the way to their door. I'd just like to provide a way for the PCs to finagle with their surroundings to alter the DC creatively, in ways not normally done, for a fresh and unexpected result. If you don't like the idea, can you provide better ones?
Archmage Atrus 08-04-06, 06:54 PM	Nope. I think the system works fine as is. But, minor penalties/bonuses due to environmental causes are a good alternative. I still don't think it should apply to hide checks, but I can see (and have used it to apply to) move silently checks. Particularly noisy ground - such as ground that has been deliberately made "crunchy" by the application of dried leaves, wet wood, whatever - should apply a penalty to move silently checks when trying to move through it.
Kradlo 08-04-06, 06:56 PM	Well, in a game I ran, a blind diviner agreed to help a PC in return for his shadow. The PC agreed, and so the diviner withdrew a tiny silver scalpel and cut along the edge of the shadow. Then he scooped it up and stuffed it wriggling into his pouch with an evil grin. When the PC returned to the group, he was happy to tell them the news he'd learned through divination magic. His elation turned to a different emotion when the other PCs reacted to their now shadowless comrade. "He's not casting a shadow! He's turned into a vampire or something! Maybe we should kill him!" It took a lot to keep them from killing him there and then. As it was, the PC then became something of a pariah in the city, as people were showing open aversion to the shadowless character.
boozerker 08-05-06, 09:12 AM	:rofl: :heehee That some funny ****. The shadow wiggling, after cutting it, pretty creative.
swallowyersoul 09-03-06, 05:28 AM	dude, you got hammered for your example when this post is a great idea. skill checks can get pretty flat sometimes. setting up a situation where character decisions can create or alter a circumstance bonus is really very clever. other examples i can think of... a door out of the guard's line of sight. if the rogue can shut it quietly, the armored oafs get a nice, fat +10 or so to their move silently checks. the locked and trapped chest is in deep shadows, but could probably be carried out into bright sunlight if anybody thinks of it. an encounter with an animal that fears a single party member. if the character takes a walk, the ranger gets a reduction in his handle animal dc. etc.
theblindman 09-03-06, 10:07 AM	Yeah, I think finding ways to adjust environmental modifiers is a great idea. It adds an element of puzzle-play to an otherwise fairly drab roll.
boozerker 09-04-06, 03:56 AM	dude, you got hammered for your example when this post is a great idea. skill checks can get pretty flat sometimes. setting up a situation where character decisions can create or alter a circumstance bonus is really very clever. other examples i can think of... a door out of the guard's line of sight. if the rogue can shut it quietly, the armored oafs get a nice, fat +10 or so to their move silently checks. the locked and trapped chest is in deep shadows, but could probably be carried out into bright sunlight if anybody thinks of it. an encounter with an animal that fears a single party member. if the character takes a walk, the ranger gets a reduction in his handle animal dc. etc. Excellent examples. And what a surprise to see this post alive on the second page :) Looking at it again, it might've gotten better reception in the skills section, since all the examples so far deal with skills. So we'll add some non-skill problems this time (instead of solutions). The DC to lift a wooden crate doubles because it sat on mud a while. Reflex save in knee-deep mud to prevent loose footwear from remaining stuck beneath. Anyone who's experienced the above knows exactly how mud affects simple things like walking with sandals or lifting something wide even if it's only slightly stuck in it. Ha, if the DM wants the PC needs a reflex save to keep from falling backwards when the crate suddenly plops out of the mud (if the PC doesn't succeed at the Strength check by 5 or more). Remember, use the problems once in a while only -- to add fun, and not too often! Just rarely enough to tickle.. That applies to the "solutions" to lower DCs too. Don't overuse!
RecycledDM 09-05-06, 12:39 PM	Boozerker, Environmental modifiers are awesome ways to spice up the mundane. I allow my PC's to try as many wacky ideas to boost their chances--on skills, attack rolls, defenses, even saving throws--as they can come up with. Two recent examples (SPOILERS ALERT...): 1) I ran some newbies through the "What's Cooking" free adventure. When they met the calzone golem in the basement, one of the PC's broke a barrel of wine over the monster. It did minimal damage, but one of the other players said "doesn't that soften the crust?" Good idea...what the heck, take 2 off the monster's AC. 2) I later ran the same PC's through a modified form of the "Eye of the Sun" free adventure. After crossing the raging river, the rogue wants to sneak up on a lizardfolk guard. He says, "does the sound of the river give me a bonus to my Move Silently?" Hadn't thought of that...sure, +4 modifier. These players now will try anything for a boost. They don't always get one, but I love to hear their creative pleas!
boozerker 09-05-06, 01:44 PM	That is awesome RecycledDM. The river churning noise is an excellent idea, works with waterfalls too. When they met the calzone golem in the basement, one of the PC's broke a barrel of wine over the monster. It did minimal damage, but one of the other players said "doesn't that soften the crust?" Good idea...what the heck, take 2 off the monster's AC. :D :D Oh that's funny.
Arganis 09-05-06, 01:52 PM	Any and all examples you could possibly think of are already accounted for in the rules for favorable and unfavorable conditions. Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check. The chance of success can be altered in four ways to take into account exceptional circumstances. -Give the skill user a +2 circumstance bonus to represent conditions that improve performance, such as having the perfect tool for the job, getting help from another character (see Combining Skill Attempts), or possessing unusually accurate information. -Give the skill user a –2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information. -Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar. -Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder, such as having an uncooperative audience or doing work that must be flawless. Conditions that affect your character’s ability to perform the skill change the skill modifier. Conditions that modify how well the character has to perform the skill to succeed change the DC. A bonus to the skill modifier and a reduction in the check’s DC have the same result: They create a better chance of success. But they represent different circumstances, and sometimes that difference is important. What more is there to say, really, except that yes, this rule is an often forgotten trick. Everyone here appears to have forgotten it while trying to reinvent the wheel.