Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Terminus Vortexa 06-13-07, 04:53 PM	I'm attempting to design a UNIQUELY ATHASIAN underdark, and would greatly appreciate any ideas anyone might have. I'm trying to avoid Forgotten Realms type creatures as much as possible. So...... Help me out, guys!
Dirk00001 06-13-07, 05:33 PM	1) Don't have it "universally connected" - different sections of the underdark are unique, and for the most part separate from the others. In cases where they connect it should be over an extremely long distance (miles upon miles) of "subway tunnels" - we know from at least one source that the Green Age Athasians used psionically-powered "subway systems" to move from city to city. 2) I suggest starting the underdark areas primarily as the "under-cities" of the major city-states as well as any other sites of ancient cities. Just like Tyr has the temple and such underneath, I personally believe that each of the other city-states also has something (unique) going on under it that are the remnants of the Green Age or even pre-Green Age "builds" of the city, upon which new structures had been built (and sunk, only to be built upon again) time and time again. As far as unique goes, I suggest giving a theme of some sort to each one (not just a "caverns caused by ancient underground lakes, sewer systems and buildings") - for instance, in my world Under-Balic is an ancient jade mine. 3) "Layer" the underdark - sorta like dungeon levels, in a sense, with each layer representing the underdark from a specific time in Athasian history. So, the "upper layer" would be the remnants of the Cleansing Wars - including undead and such appropriate to that time - then the Age of Magic, Green Age, and so on as you get deeper and deeper. 4) There's more than enough underground (or suitable for conversion to such) Athasian creatures to populate the underdark with - the idea of bringing in new critters just for that use seems "wrong" to me. In fact, given the general nature of most Athasian campaigns (above-ground action with the occasional ghoulie-filled ruins to dungeon crawl through) I think you could probably get some real use out of seldom-used critters. Dark spiders definitely pop to mind - they're intelligent, uniquely Athasian, and I could even see "dark spider societies" relying on slaves or something (...although that's starting to get FRish). *shrug*
Galek Sandstrider 06-13-07, 05:55 PM	I'm attempting to design a UNIQUELY ATHASIAN underdark, and would greatly appreciate any ideas anyone might have. I'm trying to avoid Forgotten Realms type creatures as much as possible. So...... Help me out, guys! TV I love the idea, my DM has an underdark/underworld in the area near Bodach. it stretches for 100's of leagues under the tablelands. He (DM) went to a lot of trouble detailing it. there are Drow and Illithids, but not in GR8 numbers. There are many Athasian type creatures as well. There is an entrance across a sunken bridge in the silt and two exits found so far are one in the Kreen lands, about a mile up and one on the Black isle, Which is run by a group known only as the circle. very impressive work
Terminus Vortexa 06-13-07, 06:03 PM	Excellent ideas, Dirk! Thank you! I'll definitely use all of these ideas. I like the idea of Dark Spider slavers, as long as I don't have them connected to elves in any significant way (except maybe as slaves......) the idea doesn't have that Realms flavor that I'm trying to avoid, or at the very least,if it does, it puts such a dark and Athasian twist on it that it's an appealing idea. We're on the same page about the layers-by-age, I had thought of that too. Galek, I am very interested in any more detail you could provide about your DM's Underdark. That's pretty cool that he went into a lot of detail, i'll bet his campaigns are a lot of fun! Great stuff so far, anyone else have any cool ideas?
Zardnaar 06-13-07, 06:43 PM	If one did include Drow IMHO they would have fled there in the Cleansing Wars. Change their culture from a typical D&D setting. Perhaps they onloy have a single city ruled by an undying Psion, defilers and humans get the death penalty or something similar. As a general rule most underdark beasties on other worlds don't exist on Athas- no Drow, Beholders, Duergar, Illithids, Aboleth, Goblins, Orcs.
Ruhl-Than Sage 06-13-07, 08:18 PM	One part of the Athasian Underdark is already detailed: New Guistenal. The 1st generation Dray that were 'discarded' as failed attempts by Dregoth could have spread to other connected parts of the Underdark. I think a second area of the Athasian Underdark is detailed in the Black Spine adventure. Acient Temples protected by Wraiths or Meortys like in Verdant Passage and the Crimson Legion would be common in the Undercities of the tablelands. Other sites of wholesale slaughter could have generated ghosts and other types of undead as well. Since dwarves lived underground there would probably be a large number of Banshee and other dwarven undead. Hedge-kin live in underground grottos. There may be underground caverns in the area surrounding the Pristine tower, if those connected to other areas then you have an excuse for all sorts of mutant freaks living in the Athasian Underdark. Perhaps there are Braxat communities in the underdark around the ringing mountains, not a lot has been done with them. And of course the Gith's stooped posture would make more sense if it was because of time spent deep underground in cramped caverns.
Terminus Vortexa 06-13-07, 08:22 PM	Great ideas and thoughts, Sage! I'll include aspects of what you've said as well in my Underdark. I'm thinking about having a ghostly-white race of subterranean adapted elves which will commonly be used as slaves to the Dark Spiders. I'm toying with the idea of having them be blind due to their eyes unsuccessfully trying to adapt over generations in the darkness, (so they have no useful vision but bright lights will cause them intense pain in their eyes which will disrupt their echolocation) but have Blindsight, due to their echolocation ability., and be used as a type of warrior-slave and taskmaster for other slave-races. Not necessarily like a gladiator, more like a conscripted fighting force bred for the task, having a bonus to Strength and Constitution, and a penalty to charisma and either intelligence or wisdom. Maybe I'll add in some fluff stating that their unusual eyes and extra-pale (maybe even transparent or translucent!) skin are a result of selective breeding forced by the Dark Spiders, so their slaves wouldn't be able to escape to the surface due to the aforementioned pain and disruption of their senses and also the fact that they would recieve agonizing and possibly lethal damage from any exposure to the strong Athasian sun. Heck, maybe I'll have them be entirely translucent, kinda like a jellyfish...... And maybe cold-blooded as well, so Darkvision won't be of much use detecting them at a distance. They will definitely different enough from drow , or even any other type of elf in general, to avoid any Realms-like flavor from infecting my Underdark! Also, I'm thinking of having the in-game name for the Athasian Underdark be the Netherworld, instead. By this I mean to infer that it is a physically low place (e.g. like the Netherlands, (Nederland in Dutch) which means the Low Lands). The name alone may influence many Athasians who don't know about the Grey to think that the place is some kind of subterranean afterlife realm (like the Ancient Greek Hades), an opinion which would only be reinforced if they were to catch sight of my adapted Elves.
Terminus Vortexa 06-13-07, 08:39 PM	I think I'm going to have natural rifts to the Gray and the Black be fairly common in the Netherworld, adding to its Hades-like feel. This would provide for all kinds of horrible undead and shadow creatures. Maybe even have some kind of a shadow-giant enclave, where SGs who have become disillusioned with Rajaat and his plans reside, resigned to their form of existence and making the best of it by conquering other denizens of the Netherworld.
Razor767 06-13-07, 11:57 PM	If one did include Drow IMHO they would have fled there in the Cleansing Wars. Change their culture from a typical D&D setting. Perhaps they only have a single city ruled by an undying Psion, defilers and humans get the death penalty or something similar... Athasian drow... I don't know whether to be repulsed or thrilled. Honestly. I can't decide. They'd have to be VERY different without the back story from other settings. Eg... Llolth worship and all. Egads... I like it AND hate it.
Razor767 06-14-07, 12:04 AM	I'm thinking about having a ghostly-white race of subterranean adapted elves which will commonly be used as slaves to the Dark Spiders. I'm toying with the idea of having them be blind due to their eyes unsuccessfully trying to adapt over generations in the darkness, (so they have no useful vision but bright lights will cause them intense pain in their eyes which will disrupt their echolocation) but have Blindsight, due to their echolocation ability., and be used as a type of warrior-slave and taskmaster for other slave-races. Not necessarily like a gladiator, more like a conscripted fighting force bred for the task, having a bonus to Strength and Constitution, and a penalty to charisma and either intelligence or wisdom. Maybe I'll add in some fluff stating that their unusual eyes and extra-pale (maybe even transparent or translucent!) skin are a result of selective breeding forced by the Dark Spiders, so their slaves wouldn't be able to escape to the surface due to the aforementioned pain and disruption of their senses and also the fact that they would recieve agonizing and possibly lethal damage from any exposure to the strong Athasian sun. Heck, maybe I'll have them be entirely translucent, kinda like a jellyfish...... And maybe cold-blooded as well, so Darkvision won't be of much use detecting them at a distance.. It might be cool if they could climb like the creepy crawlers in that movie, "The Descent".
j0lt 06-14-07, 01:36 AM	I love the idea of connecting the Gith's stooped posture to slouching around through underground caverns. The Banshees also fit. Perhaps a whole buried Dwarven city now populated entirely with Banshees? I don't like the idea of a DS-ified Drow. IMO it's been done to death, not to mention that it kind of goes against what it means to be an Athasian Elf.
Zardnaar 06-14-07, 01:47 AM	Athasian drow... I don't know whether to be repulsed or thrilled. Honestly. I can't decide. They'd have to be VERY different without the back story from other settings. Eg... Llolth worship and all. Egads... I like it AND hate it. Eberron Drow are quite intereting without the whole Lolth worship bit. In DS make em albinos or something.
Razor767 06-14-07, 02:33 AM	Yeah, DS drow would hardly resemble any traditional drow in any sense. The one thing you could keep is thier malevolence though. IMO you can't beat'em for that in any other humaniod. Albinoism (sp?) makes alot of sense too. I've often wondered why drow had black skin anyways.
cnahumck 06-14-07, 02:38 AM	Why make them elves at all? Athasian elves aren't made for caves. Don't use dwarves either. How about halflings? or pterrans? Of course, there are Tari, an often under used race, and also I liked the suggestion of Gith.
Zardnaar 06-14-07, 02:40 AM	Magic curse/radiation burns is the general reason given for Drow skin.
Razor767 06-14-07, 02:46 AM	Tari sounds good. You could still give them all of the traits previously listed as well.
Jaysyn 06-14-07, 08:51 AM	Possible Underdark dwellers: Tari, Dark Spiders, Wall Walkers, Hej-Kin, Gith, Crysmals, Mongrelfolk, Dray, Genie, Dao, Cloakers, Areana, Magmin, Spider Eater, Aballin, Thoqqua, Yuan-Ti, Grue; Chaggrin, Decapus, Lurkers, Oozes, Puddings, Jellies, Gelatinious Cubes, Slimes, Mihstu, Piercers, Phycomid, Rot Grub, Stegocentipede, Tunnel Worm, Earth Glider, Giant Cockroach, Giant Maggot, Lith, Maur, Stone Flyer, Cistern Fiend, Earth Drake, Earth Elemental Beast, Flailer, Lizardfolk, T’Chowb, Puddingfish, Antloids, Cave Fisher, Boring Beetle, Magma Drake, Magma Paraelemental Beast
Terminus Vortexa 06-14-07, 09:11 AM	I'd like to re-iterate the point that the elves I plan on having in the Netherworld are not at all meant to be like the Drow. I'm trying to make a uniquely Athasian subterranean elven race, descended from elven stock that fled underground during the Cleansing Wars, before the Elves became swift runners and such. IIRC, Green Age elves were supposed to be much like standard Elven stock. My Netherworld Elves will be nothing like Drow, as they are very stark white or translucent, heavily muscular, completely blind, and rely on echolocation for their perception of the world around them. The only magic they tend to use is the way of the Shadowcaster and the Necromancer specialist wizard, and I'm giving them a racial ability to fuel arcane spells by tapping into the Grey.As a culture they have no knowledge of Preserver or Defiler magic, though they could learn it if instructed.Most rely heavily on the Way, with the most common classes being Psychic Warrior, Ardent and Erudite. Those who can cast spells or use Shadowcaster magic tend to take prestige classes like Cerebremancer and Mind Mage, as their culture has a strong drive for the efficient use of resources in their sometimes barren subterranean lands. The only aspect that even remotely resembles the Drow is the connection to Dark Spiders, which is of a very different nature then Lolth worship, and does not include the whole race., though they are all descended from elves that were captured and mutated by psionic means, natural evolution and close proximity to the Grey and the Black into their current form, over many generations. Because they have intimate knowledge of the Grey, and the doom it holds for all who die and go there, most of those who use magic attempt to become powerful forms of undead such as Kaisharga and Tliz, and those who do not have their souls stored inside a communal, psionically-charged black crystal of gargantuan proportions, occasionally emerging to take possession of crystalline constructs made for that very purpose, when their race has great need of their magical or psionic prowess or combat skills(similar to the Eldar in Warhammer 40k) These constructs will be made of transparent crystal with intricate patterns etched on the surface and permeating throughout, entirely created by psionics from energy and matter drawn from the Grey and the Black. I'll flesh out more details about Netherworld Elves as I come up with more ideas about them. I'm going to make them a force to be reckoned with in this deadly and mysterious subterranean realm, one of many. The traits I'm borrowing from the Eldar gave me another idea...... What do you all think about the possibility of Orks living down there? Not Realmsy orcs like those in the Drizzt books, but Warhammer 40k style Orks, living only to fight, generating a powerful psychic field as a race that their shamans can tap into as a source of power for their spells, and reproducing by constantly emitting spores!!! Perhaps they could be the descendants of some Orcs who escaped the Cleansing Wars, only to be mutated when travelling past the Pristine Tower and subsequently hiding underground for the duration of the war, degenerating into a savage, bestial race to cope with their harsh new lives and perilous environs......
Jaysyn 06-14-07, 09:48 AM	I liked your ideas until I got to here... .. and I'm giving them a racial ability to fuel arcane spells by tapping into the Grey.... And here... What do you all think about the possibility of Orks living down there? Not Realmsy orcs like those in the Drizzt books, but Warhammer 40k style Orks, living only to fight, generating a powerful psychic field as a race that their shamans can tap into as a source of power for their spells, and reproducing by constantly emitting spores!!! Perhaps they could be the descendants of some Orcs who escaped the Cleansing Wars, only to be mutated when travelling past the Pristine Tower and subsequently hiding underground for the duration of the war, degenerating into a savage, bestial race to cope with their harsh new lives and perilous environs... Let's leave the Genocided races dead folks. They make good undead however.
Razor767 06-14-07, 10:02 AM	I like all that you've thought of for this subterranian elf race. I'm curious as to what sort of cultural personality you intend on giving them. How you might role-play one if your characters try to talk with it.
Terminus Vortexa 06-14-07, 02:15 PM	I'm thinking they should have a wide variety of personality types. Those who are enslaved by the Dark Spiders or others probably will lean towards a Lawful Good bent, while individuals in the Free Clans will lean towards the following alignments - with those with a higher number of Shadowcasters will tend towards an Evil alignment, and those with more Arcane spellcasters(who fuel their spells from the Grey) lean towards a more Neutral Evil alignment, and those who are primarily Psionic tend towards Lawful Good. I know it's kind of unusual for a people that have been enslaved to lean towards a Good bent when they are usually Neutral or Evil when free, but my rationale is this. When the Netherworld Elves become enslaved by the Dark Spiders, they are absolutely forbidden on pain of death to discuss their culture and heritage. Not only does this result in them not learning magic (because they are not allowed to teach each other their spellcasting lore), it therefore results in more of them become more powerful in The Way. Aside from this, a new religion has been invented by the enslaved ones, and it is based on the idea that if they purify their spirits, the Elemental Lords and their servants will come and help them free themselves. So they try to be as good to each other as possible, and have become very self-sacrificing and generous with each other, all the while training themselves for combat when their Elemental Liberators come for them. This cult belief had its origins when, in an incident that was merely coincidence, some N. Elf clans that were enslaved had decided that if they all helped each other out, their survival chances and opportunuty for escape would greatly increase, and made a pact to give of themselves for each other in all things, for the good of their descendants, and swore it by the four elements. Immediately thereafter, a group of Fire Elementals raged out of a nearby planar fissure and began attacking their Dark Spider masters, because they had been tampering with clerical magic and provoked the elementals. The N. Elves joined in the fray, but during the battle, a few tried to leave the others behind and flee for freedom, and somehow drew the attention of the Elementals to themselves, and were annihilated. The others lost the fight for freedom, and their new belief system was thus formed, they believed that ALL of them must adhere to their vows to assist each other, or freedom would never be theirs. So they "evangelize" and proselytize to each other constantly, always trying to make sure their brethren are in the correct spiritual state and are behaving in a self-sacrificing Lawful Good manner towards each other, and wait for the Elementals to return...... Those who are free are quite different. the Wizards and Shadowcasters tend towards their respective LE and NE alignments because the Shadowcasters seek to become undead through the help of their fellows, and care only for this goal, obeying the laws of their Cabal and working together, and having no respect or regard for anything not of their own race, seeing outsiders only as potential slaves, sacrifices for rituals, and even food, depending on the tribe. They are courteous to a fault amongst their own race, and quite talkative and inquisitive. They never harm thier own kind, because they will still need the community after they become undead. The Wizards tend to work alone in their quest for undeath, and care only for themselves in most regards, and are quite willing to exploit anyone for this cause, while they tend not to harm their fellow Netherworld Elves, if they see a need for it, they won't hesitate to do anything short of killing their own direct family members to further their path to Undeath. Thew more powerful of these two groups usually become Kaisharga, while those who die before reaching that state are brought back by their fellows as Thinking Zombies. Those who focus on Psionics tend to be more interested in the fate of the community as a whole, because it is the community who protects the crystal where their souls will reside after death. They have no wish to become undead. The eternal welfare of their souls depend on their family, friends and descendants being alive, healthy, loyal, so that the Soul Crystal of their clan will be protected and maintained. Therefore they are very kind and helpful to each other, to re-enforce the bonds of loyalty. They will try to slay anyone or anything that tries to harm their clan-mates, but amongst each other, they are cheerful, helpful, and energetic in their daily lives. They treat the Shadowcasters and Wizards the same way they treat everyone else, knowing that if they achieve their goals of undeath, they could be powerful and eternal allies of the Clan. In an unusual racial quirk, those that achieve undeath gravitate towards a more Lawful neutral alignment, eventually leaning towards good, as their quest for immortality has been achieved, and they come to realize that their chances of staying that way increase greatly with the whole Clan to back them up against outside threats, and vice-versa. I'll flesh out their culture more as I conjure up more material.
Razor767 06-14-07, 04:14 PM	I'd be interested in hearing what you have in mind for these communal soul crystals. My first thought was, "could a Sorceror King use them as fuel?"
cnahumck 06-14-07, 04:39 PM	TV you might just want to use the stats for Guardians from ToA. They would work the same, mechanically.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 09:15 AM	I'd be interested in hearing what you have in mind for these communal soul crystals. My first thought was, "could a Sorceror King use them as fuel?" That depends on the particular DM's viewpoint on the source of power for defiler magic and Dragon Magic. If you go with the viewpoint of the Prism Pentad, since Sadira could draw power from the specters while in the Grey for use as spell-fuel, than one would assume that any defiler could tap these crystals, until you read into their nature and find out that they are psionically created. So, in order to tap these soul crystals, one would have to be capable of using psionics to manipulate life energy and souls. So.... Any body with the Energy Storing special quality could tap these crystals, but I would allow the crystal a will save (DC=the DC to save against the SK's highest level power)for every 1d20 HD worth of energy drawn from it, with a will save modifier equal to whatever an NPC Ardent or Psychic Warrior of level equal to the d20 roll would have (or just assign the crystal an ad-hoc will save to save trouble)representing the will to survive of the soul being leeched out, and the fact that it is intimately more familiar with the crystal matrix it resides within, allowing it to "dig its nails in, kicking and screaming" and trying to resist. The Crystal Matrix is like an SK's obsidian Orbs for energy storing with one heck of a mental lock. Also, just the attempt to steal energy from the Crystal Matrix provokes it to manifest Crystal Shard as a lv20 manifester, targeting the person trying to do this, it also psychically alerts the entire community of Netherworld Elves who maintain the crystal, and on top of this, the souls in the crystal immediately start to channel themselves along crystal conduits embedded in the floor under the Matrix into any available Crystalline Avatars (the crystal bodies made available to them for when their clan needs them), each clan maintains as many as they possibly can, at least equal to upwards of approximately half of their current population or more, with members of wealthier clans spending considerable sums on their own Avatar for when they die, and less affluent Netherworld Elf families pooling their resources to create avatars for the communal use of their deceased kin) who will immediately start to defend the crystal with every iota of power available to them. Even an SK would find himself in serious danger for perpetrating this heinous crime, though if well prepared, they may be able to pull it off. Consider each Crystal Matrix to have a supply of souls in the tens of thousands(representing most of the clan's ancestry, except only those who have become Undead)), with several HD each. Consider also that some especially wealthy and industrious clans may have Crystalline Avatars outnumbering their current living population. Most of the time, the Ancestors prefer to rest along corridors of thought and in dreamscapes created in the Crystal Matrix, but an attack on the Matrix will always provoke them to rush out into Avatars, and they WILL DO EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to slay the perpetrator(s).So, bring a BIG army if you want this prize, bolster your power resistance, and be prepared to deal with angry undead that make Szass Tam look like a sissy, and would garner the respect of Dregoth himself.
cnahumck 06-15-07, 09:25 AM	TV, I like your ideas here, but I am wondering why elves. I understand that they are not like Drow, but to me, anytime I hear about elves underground I get nervous. I think you could do very similar things with something else. Tari could make great replacements, as they already exist but have little background at this point. It could even be a group that mutated in someway to create this alternate version. and if you are wanting to take things from Warhammer, you could definitely do the Skaven thing with them. That said, do what you like, it's your world.
Dragoloth 06-15-07, 09:52 AM	Large underground cities of sarkrith would be great. They are a reptilian race who believe only they should weild magic. They can be found on page 145 of the fiend folio.
Zardnaar 06-15-07, 09:58 AM	Large underground cities of sarkrith would be great. They are a reptilian race who believe only they should weild magic. They can be found on page 145 of the fiend folio. Always liked those dorks. Liek alot of 3.0 things they're easy for their supposed CR.
Razor767 06-15-07, 11:45 AM	Wow. Talk about contingency plans! LOL I was only considering that anyone who dared to draw from the crystal might need to pass a will save or become possessed by a random number of the inhabitants. I like your ideas though. Seems like your thinking on a larger scale with this society that I was.
Dirk00001 06-15-07, 12:02 PM	General thoughts regarding the way this thread is headed: - I think rather than "elves" per se, you totally knock off the racial aspect and make them an entirely new race, perhaps somewhat elf-like in appearance, but which don't even *know* where they originally came from...maybe they were humans, maybe elves, maybe otherwise, but now they're just blind albino humanoid servants of the Dark Spiders. It's been over 2000 years since they would have been above-ground dwellers, and given human history I see no reason why any sort of "true history" necessarily would have had to survive when a Dark Spider "revisionist history" could have been put in its place. This would also give credence to the Lawful Good alignment - just like the citizens of the city-states can follow evil leaders because they believe in an extremely secluded, revisionist-history environment, the same could be said for these guys...and perhaps the Dark Spiders, being as smart as they are, are actually pushing the whole religion/"eventual freedom" aspect in such a way that it imposes a lawful, good-oriented society of slaves that ultimately are easier to control than neutral or evil slaves would be. - I'd suggest starting with the Grimlock creature and then modifying it from there, rather than starting with elves. They're already blind and "tougher" so that'd be more fitting. - I'd also suggest replacing Blindsight with an "at will" Touchsight or synesthete power - much more fitting for a blind underground Athasian race, IMO, and it also means that the Dark Spiders, through magic and/or psionics, would have a means of "stopping" it and thus giving them another means of controlling their slaves (a "taskmaster" Dark Spider might have Null-psi Field or an equiv spell - maybe even something custom - that'd make it difficult or impossible for the slave-race to keep their psi-like going, and thus they could temporarily "blind" them as punishment). - Society-wise, I'm inclined to suggest a Lord-Serf relationship more-so than a Master-Slave one between the Dark Spiders and this slave-race. True, the slave-race are in essence slaves, but the relationship isn't quite that bad - the Dark Spiders provide protection and a "government" for them, and in return they provide the Dark Spiders with food, materials, etc. And, just like in classic feudal systems, occasionally the slave-race rebels due to "poor conditions" or what not...but eventually things balance back out and it goes back to the preexisting condition/relationship. - I suggest making "uber-Dark Spiders" for this; a "Colony Queen" that is basically a hyped-up Queen and of course much more powerful than the normal DS queens, and also a "taskmaster" DS that is similar to the currently-existing DS queens but with powers, spells and perhaps new abilities better tailored to dealing with/controlling this slave-race (such as a Null-Psi field or equiv, as mentioned above, perhaps).
brun01 06-15-07, 12:32 PM	I think rather than "elves" per se, you totally knock off the racial aspect and make them an entirely new race, perhaps somewhat elf-like in appearance, but which don't even *know* where they originally came from. You mean reggelids? :D
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 01:21 PM	I definitely understand that any form of subterranean elf will always seem to scream "I'm a Drow!!!". I have no illusions about that. I may end up picking another ancestor race, if I find one that really holds the image I want. The reason I chose Elves in the first place is that in almost all D&D worlds, Elves as a RACE tend to really evolve into an ecological niche they are introduced into. Look at Drow, Wood Elves, Moon Elves, Sun Elves, etc. They all have very different aspects to their appearance, racial ability modifiers, and other special qualities. While humans as individuals tend to adapt to new circumstances well, in game terms they do this by developing traits that do not pass on to their descendants. Elves just seem to have an inborn capability to evolve on a genetic level, so their offspring pick up traits the parents acquired during their lifetimes. Like the Running Elves of Athas. They supposedly developed from ancestral stock much like the elves of other worlds, and over the course of a single generation, became the marathon running, desert dwelling raiders they are today. But, I may change my mind on this. I'm trying to keep a relatively appealing visage for them, which is another reason for Elven heritage. While many other races could have been the gene-stock for a creature with similar traits, most of the other candidates are rabid-looking snaglgle-toothed monstrosities. The other possibility I've been thinking about is that they could be descendants of Githyanki that escaped the worst effects of the Psionic Devastator, and continued to evolve into something aesthetically more similar to their very distant human ancestors, while retaining Githyanki traits like pointed ears, strong racial loyalty and innate use of psionics, as well as a tendency to adapt well to planar environments that are present in their habitats. So, I want to have a vote... Will Elves or Githyanki be the forerunners of these potent and mysterious denizens of the Netherworld below Athas?
Razor767 06-15-07, 03:21 PM	I'll vote for elves.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 04:08 PM	I'm going to partially incorporate and expan upon a suggestion by Dirk0001 into the Netherworld Elves(or whatever race they end up being :)) Some of the clans will be vassals to the Dark Spiders, living in a feudal type society with the Spiders occupying the position of King, or Emperor for large multi-clan nations. Some of the clans will be treated as slaves by their masters, these societies are kept separated and hidden from others of their race, as even those fiercely loyal to their King may disobey him in order to free their kin. Some Dark Spider kings of free nations frequently declare war on the slavers, knowing the freed slaves would join the nations of their liberators. These Slave Clans are the ones with the mythos about the Elementals coming to free them if their souls and minds are pure and good. It is possible that the "Elementals" who inspired this myth were actually Ardents, Psychic Warriors and magic users from a Free Clan who were attempting to liberate their distant kin. They were probably from a clan that favors the use of Elemental psionics and spells. A translucent Ardent manifesting Energy Bolt(electricity) would appear much like an air elemental to someone with only a cursory knowledge of such creatures, and a Cerebremancer with Fire Shield and a host of psionic buffs active who starts tossing around Fireballs and Energy Ray(fire) would be easily mistaken for a fire elemental. The Dark Spider slavers are adamant that the invaders were Elementals when questioned, because they do not want their slaves to know that they are not the only members of their race. Slaver Spiders are isolationist in the extreme. The entirely Free Clans have decent relations with the clans under a Spider King, if the Spider King treats his subjects with dignity and respect. Any signs of true oppression provoke a relentless assault. Consequently, Spider Kings with Netherworld Elf vassals are very fair and generous lords, knowing that their leadership is at the suffrage of the surrounding clans.They benefit greatly from the efforts of their vassals, and are satisfied with maintaining the status quo, for the most part. Many even consult the Ancestors in the Crystal Matrix for advice. Free Clans are loosely ruled by a council of Elders who commune with the souls in the Crystal Matrix. Unjust Elders risk being denied entry into the Matrix upon their demise.
Lafarallin 06-15-07, 04:40 PM	So if you put drow in your underdark, will they be 7' tall? Or will they be even smaller then other world elves, like 5' or less? Just curious how you'll alter them if you are adding them.
Dirk00001 06-15-07, 04:57 PM	I think that sounds good, man.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 05:16 PM	So if you put drow in your underdark, will they be 7' tall? Or will they be even smaller then other world elves, like 5' or less? Just curious how you'll alter them if you are adding them. If they still sound like Drow, I have to work harder. But as far as height goes, I think the males will be about 6'6, and the females will be around 5'6" to 6' tall.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 06:42 PM	I am also incorporating the idea into the Netherworld Elves that they do not know what their ancestry is, they only have ancient legends which often do not agree with each other, which tell them that their ancestors, which were very different from them, fled persecution and genocide at the hands of armies led by bloodthirsty immortals, and found solace and safety in the dark Netherworld. They believe their close brush with extinction gave them their affinity for Shadows (the Black) and the Realm where Souls Die (the Grey, which they never end up going to when they die because of their spellcaster's transition to undead and the Crystal Matrix(es) which house and protect the mind/souls of the rest of their population). The clans in the Dark Spider kingdoms believe that their sovereign arachnids were the ones that welcomed them into the safety of darkness, taught them to see without eyes (echolocation), and taught them about the Grey and the Black, but the Netherworld Elves know for a fact that they created the Crystal Matrixes without help or instructions from the Dark Spiders, because the ancestors who created the crystals reside therein and know the entire history of their people from the creaton of the Matrixes on.However, they do credit their kings with informing them of the oblivion that awaits all living things in the Grey, thus inspiring them to find a way to avoid that dismal fate. The clans who are enslaved by Dark Spiders do not know that they created the Crystal Matrixes on their own, because the Dark Spiders slew the ones who created them, and did not allow the clans to make use of the matrix for several generations, and later taught their descendants how to bond with the Matrix so they would enter it when they died, as well as how to create the avatars for their spirits to activate. They "taught" them this by giving their elders tomes written by the creators of the Matrixes detailing these things. The Dark Spiders did this because Netherworld Elf souls in Crystal Avatar bodies make durable and tireless workers, since a soul which wishes to rest can simply return to the Matrix, and another can immediately occupy the Avatar. The slaves are taught that the Dark Spiders saved them from genocide in a land far beneath the one they currently occupy (a lie), and that the rest of the Netherworld is a horrible place populated by undead and monsters (True, but some of those undead would be their allies, give them their freedom and welcome them into their clan. And the Netherworld can be a better and safer place to live than most of the surface world, which they do not even know exists, IF one lives in the realms of a Vassal or Truly Free clan. The Truly Free clans believe that their ancestors fled genocide on the surface, spent a time as vassals in service to the Dark Spiders while adapting to the Netherworld, and then struck out on their own with no animosity between them and their former kings, and interact frequently with their vassal kin for trade and diplomacy. However, the clans who originated from escaped slaves of the more tyrannical Spiders generally mistrust the Dark Ones, but acknowledge the difference between Sovereigns and Slavers, and carry on limited trade relations with their vassal kin. They know that they developed their ways of avoiding oblivion in the Grey on their own, but acknowledge that the Dark Spiders did teach them much about the Black and the Grey to help them survive, because of the common rifts between the Grey, the Black and the vast caverns and caves in their subterranean realm (which is why it is called the Netherworld). Free and Vassal clans attempt to overthrow Slavers wherever they discover them, and welcome their liberated kin into their clans, informing them of their "true" history, and teaching them their culture. They are patient and kind with those who are reluctant to accept the truth. There has been absolutely NO interaction with the surface world for thousands of years. The Netherworld Elves' ancestors found there way into their new home via psionic and arcane methods of travel, making a blind leap of faith that they would find a new land in which they could survive and make a good life, a gamble that paid off better for some of them than others. Surfacers would likely be judged on their individual merits, and stealthily psionically probed. Evil ones would be killed outright, while those who were worthy of their respect would most likely be treated like honored guests, and given the choice to permanently join the clan or leave forever. If they choose to leave, they would be psionically wiped of any memory of the Netherworld at all, and magically sent back to the surface via the Black, where they would awaken with ample supplies, a nice amount of gold and jewels(which are fairly common in the Netherworld) and perhaps some metal weapons, along with a story implanted in their heads of how they were attacked by raiders, miraculously overcame their attackers with help from a nomadic elf tribe(The Netherworld Elves would know about from their thorough psychic probes of their guests), who split the loot with them and went their separate ways. In extraordinary circumstances, the N. Elves could decide not to purge the memories of their guests, but would always imbue them with psionic defenses against mind probes of anyone but N. Elves, as well as adding a psionic compulsion preventing them from speaking to anyone about the Netherworld. Anyone welcomed by the clans is likely to wish to remain, though, aslife in a Free or Vassal Clan is much, much better than life on the surface. This is not to say that life in the Netherworld is generally safe . Alone and in strange lands, nobody could last more than a handful of hours without potent magic or psionics to defend themselves from the myriad of monsters that dwell therein, and stand a good chance of wandering into a rift to the Grey or the Black. But life in the Free and Vassal clan cities is quite safe, as long as one doesn't stray outside of Clan lands.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 07:00 PM	Regarding the Orks of the Netherworld, they are not in fact descended from the extinct race of surface orcs, but were given their racial name by the ancestors of the Netherworld Elves, noted the vague physical resemblance between Netherworld Orks and Surface Orcs. Netherworld Orks are dangerously aggressive and violent, living only to fight, kill and eat. Reproduction takes care of itself, as the Orks constantly generate spores which implant themselves in cave walls and floors and develop into young Orks. Orks have an innate understanding of Psionics, and are all, except for their Witch Doctors, Psychic Warriors, using their powers on an instinctual level. Ork Witch Doctors are Wilders, or occasionally Wilder/Fire cleric multiclassed. They tend to the wounds of their kin, (with a low success rate) and give advice(usually poor) to the clan leaders. Ork Chiefs are much larger than regular Orks, and are obeyed without question. If the Chief dies, he releases a cloud of spores which will eventually grow into new Chiefs, which will fight to the death until only one remains. Orks have an instinctual understanding of how to make crude weapons, such as axes and clubs, as well as rudimentary metalworking skills, which result in very poor quality metal weapons, which the Chiefs carry with pride. They have no concept of armor whatsoever. Orks attack anything and everything on sight. Ork spores can be destroyed by fire or acid, and young Orks are very small(about the size of Goblins), extremely stupid, easily killed, and grow slowly. The race survives by sheer quantity of offspring, which are sometimes eaten by older Orks and not reared or cared for in any way. Those that do survive do so by staying with the pack, hiding when prey is scarce, and proving their worth in battle as they grow older. Netherworld Elves absolutely detest Orks and do their best to exterminate them. Casualties in battle with Orks are usually about 20 orks dead for every elf that falls, because the common Ork is a very low-level psychic warrior, rarely living long enough to pass level 5 or so. Witch Doctors and Clan Chiefs have been known to reach epic levels, and are responsible for the bulk of Netherworld Elves killed by Orks. Common Orks are basically "cannon fodder" I based these Orks on those of Warhammer 40K.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 07:04 PM	It might be cool if they could climb like the creepy crawlers in that movie, "The Descent". Those who are Psychic Warriors will make use of feats like Up the Walls and Run on Air, and the power Spider Climb (psionic). Wizards will make use of Spider Climb.
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 07:09 PM	Possible Underdark dwellers: Tari, Dark Spiders, Wall Walkers, Hej-Kin, Gith, Crysmals, Mongrelfolk, Dray, Genie, Dao, Cloakers, Areana, Magmin, Spider Eater, Aballin, Thoqqua, Yuan-Ti, Grue; Chaggrin, Decapus, Lurkers, Oozes, Puddings, Jellies, Gelatinious Cubes, Slimes, Mihstu, Piercers, Phycomid, Rot Grub, Stegocentipede, Tunnel Worm, Earth Glider, Giant Cockroach, Giant Maggot, Lith, Maur, Stone Flyer, Cistern Fiend, Earth Drake, Earth Elemental Beast, Flailer, Lizardfolk, T’Chowb, Puddingfish, Antloids, Cave Fisher, Boring Beetle, Magma Drake, Magma Paraelemental Beast Thanks for the list, Jaysyn! I'll try to incorporate as many as possible. Most will be modified in some way to reflect the nature of the Netherworld ( heavy connections to the Grey and the Black). Keep the ideas coming, everyone, I plan on developing this idea as far as possible, and compiling a sort of Guide to the Netherworld when I feel the concept is finished enough to do so. So please, give me lots of ideas and feedback!
Brian 06-15-07, 08:37 PM	i ran a group of PCs on a campaing into my own version of the athasian underdark...wherein they encountered the dark spiders...who IMC WERE the descendants of elves that fled underground during the cleansing wars. altered by underground "run-off" from the pristine tower...their own tampering with magics...and the discovery of a very ancient blue-age bioweapon...
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 08:42 PM	PLEASE post as much info as you can remember, I like the idea of the Dark Spiders being Elf descendants as well......Makes the relationship between the two more valid....I may incorporate that idea , with your permission! And please give me more info on this bioweapon, as well!!
Ruhl-Than Sage 06-15-07, 09:31 PM	I think it's kind of strange to make them a subrace as there aren't really any subraces in DS (other then a few different kinds of Giants and the two types of Dray, but they are created). I don't think there is anything in the setting that is decended from one race, but is another unless the pristine tower was invovled. Though you could always go that route, the T'luk is already a pristine tower mutation of elves. Why not have them be decended from Humans?
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 09:38 PM	Netherworld Elf Clerics are an important part of their society. While the N. Elves have no need or use for religion (They know exactly what will happen when they die, and know there are no gods) , they do have uses for an alliance with the elements. The N. Elf Clerics are very different than other Athasian clerics.They are invariably Ardent or Divine Mind/Cleric multiclass characters, who seek to become Elemental Advanced Beings. They have no desire to become undead, and are willing to sacrifice(or at least greatly delay) their rest in the Crystal Matrixes in order to benefit their clan. N. Elf Clerics do not worship their patron element per se, they have a very honest and pragmatic relationship with their element. They propagate and protect their element, and in return receive ther cleric spells and abilities. Fire clerics maintain the community's fires, which are used for heat and cooking as well as waste disposal, using the ashes to fertilize fields for fungus growth. (the fields are maintained by the Earth Clerics). Fire clerics are also very active in the defense of the clan lands, and are greatly feared by the enemies of the N. Elves. They are also responsible for the cremation of the bodies of the dead if they are too far away from home for burial, ,and work in tandem with other clerics to produce metal weapons and other items.In that process, they create and maintain the necessary heat, with a greater degree of control and accuracy than mundane methods can allow.They are also responsible for the smelting of ore, and through their efforts, metal of purity unrivaled on Athas is produced. They work in tandem with Earth clerics to develop new alloys. A rare few manage to gather enough clerical and psionic power to become Fire Elemental Advanced Beings, who hold great respect in their community and are the primary instructors of new Fire clerics. Some fire clerics master a method of psionically altering the Light spell to produce light capable of sustaining plant growth, and those special few work in tandem with the Water and Earth clerics to produce crops. They have no religious dogma, and those who do not become ABs enter the Crystal Matrix upon their deaths. Earth Clerics are responsible for the growth of fungus for food, and work in tandem with Fire clerics to produce metal items and weapons, they do the physical act of hammering and forging the items, and use magic and psionics to hone blades to a razor sharp edge. They are responsible for the burial of their kin who die close to home, and for selecting new locations to make caverns for habitation. They are also among the best scouts in the clans, using their clerical powers to pass through the walls of the Netherworld's caverns, allowing them to take shortcuts others can't use,in order to get into good positions to spy on enemies. They frequently use Earth elementals as henchmen to scout for them and help in their work. Earth clerics are rarely front-line fighters, as their skills are more valuable in the Clan's holdings, and as spies. They have no religious dogma, and those who do not become Elemental ABs merge with the Crystal Matrix after death. Water Clerics are vital and respected, as they locate and provide water for drinking, agriculture and sanitation, as well as taking part in the creation of metal items, specifically the quenching, which they are highly skilled at. This is an often overlooked or trivialized part of the process, but improper quenching can warp or crack a weapon, rendering it dull and useless. They most skilled can conjure ice around a newly forged weapon, quenching it in an instant and making the steel much harder than is possible with mundane methods, and far more capable of holding a keen edge. They are also responsible for using magic and psionics to help keep the temperature cool in areas where natural heat sources can render it too hot for comfortable habitation. They do not usually take part in war, and are the most peaceful members of Netherworld Elf society.Water clerics are the best healers in the clans, and are also tasked with the responsibility of delivering babies and prenatal care. They have a great love of living things, especially plants and herbivores, and are almost druid-like in their devotion to their ecosystem.They work with Earth and Fire clerics to produce crops. They are the most likely of the clerics to become ABs, entering the Crystal Matrix like everyone else if they do not "ascend" to elemental status.They have no religeous dogma. Air clerics are responsible for maintaining the purity of the air, as many parts of the Netherworld have vents where toxic gases leak into the air supply. They work in tandem with earth clerics to accomplish this. The air clerics locate the source of the gases and purify the air already present, then the earth clerics seal the vent. Air clerics are very fond of magic and psionics that produce electrical effects, using Chain Lightning and psionic Energy(electricity) powers to great effect in combat. They are among the most warlike of the Netherworld Elf clerics. They take part in the tempering process of metal weapons by using electricity spells and powers in an analog of modern induction heating, instantly heating the metal to a very high temperature. Then the Water Clerics conjure ice around the weapon, instantly cooling it. The process is repeated several times, and makes metal attain an almost supernatural hardness. However, air clerics of sufficient skill to do this properly are rare, so the weapons thus produced are very valuable and given only to the best warriors in the clan. Air clerics are the second most likely to attain AB status. They have no religeous dogma. All clerics are trained in locating the souls of those who for some reason are prevented from entering the Matrix. This sometimes occurs due to having their Soul Crystal smashed. (All Netherworld Elves have a Soul Crystal psionically implanted in their breastbone at birth, which is removed and psionically merged with the Soul Matrix at death.The crystal is entirely inside the body, though a faint light can be seen through the skin. Obviously, the N. Elves never actually see this light). Clerics also have special spells and psionic powers for the purpose of locating the soul crystals of N. Elves who die alone, since the Soul Crystal must be physically merged with the Matrix to transfer the soul inside The light-producing psi-spell combinations are a recent innovation by the Fire clerics, and the N. Elves developed for thousands of years before this discovery, thus they make use of light even though they cannot see it. Their extremely photosensitive skin allows them to percieve its presence as a warm feeling in their skin. The light produced by clerics is not strong enough to burn them like the harsh modern Athasian sun, and is in fact more similar to the light of the Blue Age sun. .
Terminus Vortexa 06-15-07, 09:48 PM	The reason I chose Elves is their quick adaptability as a race, as implied by the abundance of subraces in other settings, and their stealthiness. Also, I chose them for their facial and ear structure. Physically, they are built a lot like the Night Elves in Warcraft III, with very prominent pointed ears. The males are very large and muscular, built like professional bodybuilders, and the females are lithe and lean, with generous curves (but not so generous that they affect their dexterity or combat abilities). When I stat out their racial ability modifiers, the males will have a bonus to Strength , the females will have bonuses to Dexterity. Their other qualities (Blindness, echolocation, the affinity for the Black and the Grey) are a far departure from normal elves, but they do not result in much obvious physical difference, with the exception of the stark white(sometimes translucent, nearly transparent) skin and longer, pointed ears. The translucent elves bodies are translucent all the way through, kind of like a jellyfish, A creature with sight could easily overlook them at anything but close range. In addition, the very long lifespans of standard elves were appealing to me, because with such long lives, they would be able to make very profound advancements in psionics and magic, paving the way for their unique societal advantages like their weaponsmithing processes and the creation of the Crystal Matrixes. These processes were a long time in development, and it would have been longer if they had to keep passing incomplete work through the generations like shorter-lived races. The creation of the Crystal Matrixes kind of supplements this advantage, as they can now continue to be an active part of their community through the use of Avatars if they so chose, and they can share their wisdom and experience with the clan even while not in an Avatar. The Ancestors speak with each other in the matrixes, and are a vital resource of knowledge and wisdom they gained in their long lifetimes.But without the long lifespans to develop that innovation, they may never have been able to do this. Also, a long lifespan helps greatly when one enters a new and radically different environment, where it may not be immediately safe to try and raise children. Please keep in mind that they went underground before the Elves of Athas developed inot the shorter-lived, fast runnning creatures they are today.
cnahumck 06-16-07, 12:23 AM	My recomendation for the Crystal Matrix that you are talking about would be to make it an offshoot of the process that creates Guardians. Make it an alternate way to store the psyche of the individual. I am doing something similar for my Bastion region.
DarthCestual 06-18-07, 08:18 PM	Back when I was putting together my DS campaign, I kept my Underdark to just a few small pockets and an artificial connecting network that was ancient before the Blue Age. I had to ask myself what does the bleak world of Athas have in abundance other than sand and rocks. Psionics-more to the point, psionic brains. Illithids were the masters of the Athasian Underdark, and the brains of it's psionic people were super-food for the Mind Flayers. They'd abduct people in the night and bring them down to their psi-farms where they'd be bred with other psis for specific "tastes". One of the ways they kept their psi captives in line was a new breed of flayer I called the Olithid, whose talents either dampened psionics or reflect any used against them. I envisioned the Ulitharids gorging themselves and looking like some kind of opium den junkies and compelling the Illithids to bring them more brains.
Terminus Vortexa 11-25-08, 12:39 AM	guess I found an easier way to bring back this thread........score!