Half-Giant racial class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Half-Giant racial class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
huntercc
05-06-06, 02:11 PM Follow-up to my earlier post of the Thri-kreen racial class. Please keep in mind that this is based on the idea that the Half-Giant is growing a little at each level.

Half-Giant Class
A level in this class only grants hit dice as shown below in Table 1. Feats and ability score adjustments are not included in this table, and should be granted according to Table 2-5 in Savage Species.

Optional: A Half-Giant can choose to take another class level in between each level of Half-Giant. However, the total class levels can not exceed a character’s current number of levels of Half-Giant until all levels of Half-Giant are obtained. For example, Mongo has reached 2nd level and can now decide between taking a 2nd level of Half-Giant, or taking his first class level – he eventually chooses to take a level in Barbarian. He can not take another class level until he has gained at least one more level of Half-Giant.

Base Traits
Hit Die: d8
Favored Class: Barbarian
Ability Scores: +4 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha
Size: Medium – start play as Medium size, growing to Large size by 3rd level
Type: Giant
Speed: Base land speed is 30ft
Darkvision to 60ft
Axis Alignment
Proficiencies: proficient with all simple and martial weapons
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus languages: Dwarven, Gith, Giant, Tarek.

Class Skills
A Half-Giant's racial class skills are: Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot

Skill points at each level: (2+Int)x4 at 1st level, (2+Int) at 2nd, and none at 3rd.

Table 1:
Level BAB Fort/Ref/Will Skill Pts Special
1st +1 +2/+0/+0 (2+Int)x4 Racial Hit Die, Natural Armor +1
2nd +2 +3/+0/+0 2+Int Racial Hit Die, +2 Str, Natural Armor +2
3rd +2 +3/+0/+0 none Large Build, Speed 40ft, +2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha

Class Features
Racial Hit Die: A Half-Giant gains 1d8 Racial HD at 1st level, another at 2nd level, and none at any level thereafter, except those gained from class levels.

Large Build (Ex): A Half-Giant becomes Large size at 3rd level. This means he gains a 10ft reach, -4 penalty to all Hide checks, -1 penalty to attack rolls, -1 penalty to AC. He now requires larger than normal weapons and armor, and his lifting and carrying limits are now double that of a medium character.

(all other features are as described in the athas.org rules)

*************************

Comments? Let me know if I missed something.

And like I mentioned at the top, this is based on the idea that the Half-Giant is growing a little at each level. IMHO part of the reason a Half-Giant gets a big penalty to Charisma is because of their size, hence the -2 Cha at 3rd level.
huntercc
05-08-06, 09:34 AM I must say I'm surprised to have no feedback on this and the Aarakocra, and only one response to the Mul... I was sure there would be some things that would need changing...
Bengeldorn
05-08-06, 11:16 AM I must say I'm surprised to have no feedback on this and the Aarakocra, and only one response to the Mul... I was sure there would be some things that would need changing...Actually, I have some problems with the class, especially the ability changes (for example -2 Cha), but unfortunatelly, I have no idea how it could be done better.
In addition, if I recall the MM, than a size increase usually provides a +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, but if these will happen within a class level, the base traits are awfully bad.
And as for the arakocra, PC in my group are not allowed to use them, basically because it's hard enough to manage the standard combat rules, but then adding arial combat would drive me mad.
huntercc
05-08-06, 01:35 PM In addition, if I recall the MM, than a size increase usually provides a +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, but if these will happen within a class level, the base traits are awfully bad.
I don't remember that from the MM, I'll have to look when I get the chance. I was basing those on the examples I saw in Savage Species.

And as for the arakocra, PC in my group are not allowed to use them, basically because it's hard enough to manage the standard combat rules, but then adding arial combat would drive me mad.
I allow them, but nobody in my group likes them -- they think they are too wimpy. And I can see where the aerial combat could be a pain, luckily I haven't had to deal with it.

But seriously, post any suggestions you might have... I struggled with this one to try and balance it at each level.
Bengeldorn
05-08-06, 07:59 PM I don't remember that from the MM, I'll have to look when I get the chance. I was basing those on the examples I saw in Savage Species.MM, page 291, Table 4-1: Changes to Statics by Size.
But seriously, post any suggestions you might have... I struggled with this one to try and balance it at each level.That's the problem, I don't have any suggestions. The only thing that comes into my mind, is that if the base is medium sized, you could add an ability that would allow wielding large weapon without penalty, and that Half-Giants must use large armor. Although medium sized, they are much bigger than usual medium creatures.
MysticTheurge
05-08-06, 09:27 PM MM, page 291, Table 4-1: Changes to Statics by Size.
That's the problem, I don't have any suggestions. The only thing that comes into my mind, is that if the base is medium sized, you could add an ability that would allow wielding large weapon without penalty, and that Half-Giants must use large armor. Although medium sized, they are much bigger than usual medium creatures.

Goliaths from Races of Stone, and maybe XPH Half-giants have a racial feature called Large Build or something. Basically it lets them use large weapons, and they are considered large when it would benefit them, so for Grappling, but I don't think it gives them the standard -1 to Hit/AC and the -4 to hide and stuff and also kept them from being 10x10' creatures. I don't know if that's something you looked into or if you wanted to stick with them actually being Large.
huntercc
05-09-06, 09:00 AM hmm... that entry in MM makes it very difficult to balance a class such as this, if you follow that. I was basing my class on the Frost Giant progression found in Savage Species, pg 171 Table A-20. That one gives a +2 Str almost every other level, and upon becoming Large size (at 11th level) all he gets is a 10ft reach, +2 Con, and a +2 increase to Natural Armor (for a total of +8 natural armor). I followed what Savage Species was doing in order to spread out the +8 Str.

Complete Psionic gives their Half-giant the Powerful Build ability at 2nd level, which makes it sort of halfway between Medium and Large size... basically it's only considered Large if it actually benefits the half-giant. I could come up with something similar to this... call it "Little Giant" or something :D

When I get home from work tonight I'll do 2 things... work in MysticTheurge's suggestion to do something similar to the XPH half-giant, and I'll also try to work up a second version that starts at Large size rather than medium. Not sure how that will look... but we'll see :thinks:
Bengeldorn
05-09-06, 11:15 AM hmm... that entry in MM makes it very difficult to balance a class such as this, if you follow that. I was basing my class on the Frost Giant progression found in Savage Species, pg 171 Table A-20. That one gives a +2 Str almost every other level, and upon becoming Large size (at 11th level) all he gets is a 10ft reach, +2 Con, and a +2 increase to Natural Armor (for a total of +8 natural armor). I followed what Savage Species was doing in order to spread out the +8 Str.

Complete Psionic gives their Half-giant the Powerful Build ability at 2nd level, which makes it sort of halfway between Medium and Large size... basically it's only considered Large if it actually benefits the half-giant. I could come up with something similar to this... call it "Little Giant" or something :D

When I get home from work tonight I'll do 2 things... work in MysticTheurge's suggestion to do something similar to the XPH half-giant, and I'll also try to work up a second version that starts at Large size rather than medium. Not sure how that will look... but we'll see :thinks:I don't know Savage Species, but if they had done it that way, it should be ok. Although, I see the mechanical reason, as Charisma influences at least any "basics" (saves, attack bonus, skill points per level, etc...), I still see no logical reason for the -2 Cha penalty at 3rd level.
huntercc
05-09-06, 11:31 AM Although, I see the mechanical reason, as Charisma influences at least any "basics" (saves, attack bonus, skill points per level, etc...), I still see no logical reason for the -2 Cha penalty at 3rd level.
Well there were a couple of reasons I did this.
(1) I like to think that part of the charisma penalty is due to the half-giant's size, which goes to Large at 3rd level... there is nothing in any book that says this, it's more of an opinion than anything
(2) I had to find a way to balance the ability scores at 1st level

I did notice a couple of examples in Savage Species that give +2 to charisma at various levels, but I didn't see anything that gave a penalty to it. My logic is probably flawed... in fact, now that I look at it again, I could probably have the half-giant start with +2 Con and -4 Cha, and at 3rd level give him a +2 Con instead of the -2 Cha... I've convinced myself, how about you?
Bengeldorn
05-09-06, 11:40 AM Well there were a couple of reasons I did this.
(1) I like to think that part of the charisma penalty is due to the half-giant's size, which goes to Large at 3rd level... there is nothing in any book that says this, it's more of an opinion than anything
(2) I had to find a way to balance the ability scores at 1st level

I did notice a couple of examples in Savage Species that give +2 to charisma at various levels, but I didn't see anything that gave a penalty to it. My logic is probably flawed... in fact, now that I look at it again, I could probably have the half-giant start with +2 Con and -4 Cha, and at 3rd level give him a +2 Con instead of the -2 Cha... I've convinced myself, how about you?I'm not quite sure, +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int ,-4 Wis ,-4 Cha as base traits are pretty bad IMO.
I was thinking about a logical reason for a while, and the only reason I could see, is that the -2 penalty is based on the Axis Alignment. IMO Size shouldn't change Charisma.
Well, I don't know.....The Half-Giant is a hard nut to crack. The racial HD and level adjustment are basically based on his ability scores. Otherwise he has no real benefits expcept being Large.
huntercc
05-09-06, 11:48 AM I'm not quite sure, +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int ,-4 Wis ,-4 Cha as base traits are pretty bad IMO.
I was thinking about a logical reason for a while, and the only reason I could see, is that the -2 penalty is based on the Axis Alignment. IMO Size shouldn't change Charisma.
Well, I don't know.....The Half-Giant is a hard nut to crack. The racial HD and level adjustment are basically based on his ability scores. Otherwise he has no real benefits expcept being Large.
Yeah it's not easy to spread that stuff out. And I like your suggestion that the axis alignment would affect the charisma. Although, according to MM pg 291, Large size does give +4 Con... so I can see an argument for either way.
Bengeldorn
05-10-06, 07:04 AM Yeah it's not easy to spread that stuff out. And I like your suggestion that the axis alignment would affect the charisma. Although, according to MM pg 291, Large size does give +4 Con... so I can see an argument for either way.
I recently got a look inside Savage Species and found the Half-Ogre. Looking at the racial traits, I'm not sure, if the Half-Giant's traits are that good. The Savage Species' Half-Ogre has no racial Hit Dice, and still a level adjustment +1. Considering the Half-Ogre has no Axis Alignment, which IMHO is a penalty and not a benefit, 2 points less on Str and Con, but no penalty on Wisdom and 2 points less penalty on Int and Cha, 2 HD and +1 LA doesn't seem to equal things out. Besides that the Half-Ogre's is higher than the Half-Ginat's one.

So taking the Savage Species' Half-Ogre as base, a Half-Giant with following traits would be fine to me:

+6 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha
Large: As Large creature, half-giants have a -1 penalty to AC and a -1 penalty on all attack rolls. They also have a reach of 10 feet.
Half-giant base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision 60 feet.
Natural Armor +2
Giant Type
Axis Alignment
Favored Class: Barbarian
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gith, Giant, Tarek.
LA +1

IMHO +6 on Str would be still enough for Half-Giants.
huntercc
05-10-06, 08:49 AM That would be doable, but my goal was to make these "classes" so at the final level you would be equal to the athas.org version of the race. If you want a custom half-giant for your campaign I could help you put together a new race/class for that too.

As for the half-ogre's hit dice and LA... don't forget that hit dice don't count towards LA, only towards ECL. LA is affected by ability scores and special abilities (fly speed, spells, etc). It sounded like you had that a little confused, maybe not.

And I didn't get anywhere on this last night, hopefully tonight I'll get the chance :(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
huntercc 05-06-06, 02:11 PM	Follow-up to my earlier post of the Thri-kreen racial class. Please keep in mind that this is based on the idea that the Half-Giant is growing a little at each level. Half-Giant Class A level in this class only grants hit dice as shown below in Table 1. Feats and ability score adjustments are not included in this table, and should be granted according to Table 2-5 in Savage Species. Optional: A Half-Giant can choose to take another class level in between each level of Half-Giant. However, the total class levels can not exceed a character’s current number of levels of Half-Giant until all levels of Half-Giant are obtained. For example, Mongo has reached 2nd level and can now decide between taking a 2nd level of Half-Giant, or taking his first class level – he eventually chooses to take a level in Barbarian. He can not take another class level until he has gained at least one more level of Half-Giant. Base Traits Hit Die: d8 Favored Class: Barbarian Ability Scores: +4 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha Size: Medium – start play as Medium size, growing to Large size by 3rd level Type: Giant Speed: Base land speed is 30ft Darkvision to 60ft Axis Alignment Proficiencies: proficient with all simple and martial weapons Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus languages: Dwarven, Gith, Giant, Tarek. Class Skills A Half-Giant's racial class skills are: Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot Skill points at each level: (2+Int)x4 at 1st level, (2+Int) at 2nd, and none at 3rd. Table 1: Level BAB Fort/Ref/Will Skill Pts Special 1st +1 +2/+0/+0 (2+Int)x4 Racial Hit Die, Natural Armor +1 2nd +2 +3/+0/+0 2+Int Racial Hit Die, +2 Str, Natural Armor +2 3rd +2 +3/+0/+0 none Large Build, Speed 40ft, +2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha Class Features Racial Hit Die: A Half-Giant gains 1d8 Racial HD at 1st level, another at 2nd level, and none at any level thereafter, except those gained from class levels. Large Build (Ex): A Half-Giant becomes Large size at 3rd level. This means he gains a 10ft reach, -4 penalty to all Hide checks, -1 penalty to attack rolls, -1 penalty to AC. He now requires larger than normal weapons and armor, and his lifting and carrying limits are now double that of a medium character. (all other features are as described in the athas.org rules) ************************* Comments? Let me know if I missed something. And like I mentioned at the top, this is based on the idea that the Half-Giant is growing a little at each level. IMHO part of the reason a Half-Giant gets a big penalty to Charisma is because of their size, hence the -2 Cha at 3rd level.
huntercc 05-08-06, 09:34 AM	I must say I'm surprised to have no feedback on this and the Aarakocra, and only one response to the Mul... I was sure there would be some things that would need changing...
Bengeldorn 05-08-06, 11:16 AM	I must say I'm surprised to have no feedback on this and the Aarakocra, and only one response to the Mul... I was sure there would be some things that would need changing...Actually, I have some problems with the class, especially the ability changes (for example -2 Cha), but unfortunatelly, I have no idea how it could be done better. In addition, if I recall the MM, than a size increase usually provides a +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, but if these will happen within a class level, the base traits are awfully bad. And as for the arakocra, PC in my group are not allowed to use them, basically because it's hard enough to manage the standard combat rules, but then adding arial combat would drive me mad.
huntercc 05-08-06, 01:35 PM	In addition, if I recall the MM, than a size increase usually provides a +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, +2 natural armor, but if these will happen within a class level, the base traits are awfully bad. I don't remember that from the MM, I'll have to look when I get the chance. I was basing those on the examples I saw in Savage Species. And as for the arakocra, PC in my group are not allowed to use them, basically because it's hard enough to manage the standard combat rules, but then adding arial combat would drive me mad. I allow them, but nobody in my group likes them -- they think they are too wimpy. And I can see where the aerial combat could be a pain, luckily I haven't had to deal with it. But seriously, post any suggestions you might have... I struggled with this one to try and balance it at each level.
Bengeldorn 05-08-06, 07:59 PM	I don't remember that from the MM, I'll have to look when I get the chance. I was basing those on the examples I saw in Savage Species.MM, page 291, Table 4-1: Changes to Statics by Size. But seriously, post any suggestions you might have... I struggled with this one to try and balance it at each level.That's the problem, I don't have any suggestions. The only thing that comes into my mind, is that if the base is medium sized, you could add an ability that would allow wielding large weapon without penalty, and that Half-Giants must use large armor. Although medium sized, they are much bigger than usual medium creatures.
MysticTheurge 05-08-06, 09:27 PM	MM, page 291, Table 4-1: Changes to Statics by Size. That's the problem, I don't have any suggestions. The only thing that comes into my mind, is that if the base is medium sized, you could add an ability that would allow wielding large weapon without penalty, and that Half-Giants must use large armor. Although medium sized, they are much bigger than usual medium creatures. Goliaths from Races of Stone, and maybe XPH Half-giants have a racial feature called Large Build or something. Basically it lets them use large weapons, and they are considered large when it would benefit them, so for Grappling, but I don't think it gives them the standard -1 to Hit/AC and the -4 to hide and stuff and also kept them from being 10x10' creatures. I don't know if that's something you looked into or if you wanted to stick with them actually being Large.
huntercc 05-09-06, 09:00 AM	hmm... that entry in MM makes it very difficult to balance a class such as this, if you follow that. I was basing my class on the Frost Giant progression found in Savage Species, pg 171 Table A-20. That one gives a +2 Str almost every other level, and upon becoming Large size (at 11th level) all he gets is a 10ft reach, +2 Con, and a +2 increase to Natural Armor (for a total of +8 natural armor). I followed what Savage Species was doing in order to spread out the +8 Str. Complete Psionic gives their Half-giant the Powerful Build ability at 2nd level, which makes it sort of halfway between Medium and Large size... basically it's only considered Large if it actually benefits the half-giant. I could come up with something similar to this... call it "Little Giant" or something :D When I get home from work tonight I'll do 2 things... work in MysticTheurge's suggestion to do something similar to the XPH half-giant, and I'll also try to work up a second version that starts at Large size rather than medium. Not sure how that will look... but we'll see :thinks:
Bengeldorn 05-09-06, 11:15 AM	hmm... that entry in MM makes it very difficult to balance a class such as this, if you follow that. I was basing my class on the Frost Giant progression found in Savage Species, pg 171 Table A-20. That one gives a +2 Str almost every other level, and upon becoming Large size (at 11th level) all he gets is a 10ft reach, +2 Con, and a +2 increase to Natural Armor (for a total of +8 natural armor). I followed what Savage Species was doing in order to spread out the +8 Str. Complete Psionic gives their Half-giant the Powerful Build ability at 2nd level, which makes it sort of halfway between Medium and Large size... basically it's only considered Large if it actually benefits the half-giant. I could come up with something similar to this... call it "Little Giant" or something :D When I get home from work tonight I'll do 2 things... work in MysticTheurge's suggestion to do something similar to the XPH half-giant, and I'll also try to work up a second version that starts at Large size rather than medium. Not sure how that will look... but we'll see :thinks:I don't know Savage Species, but if they had done it that way, it should be ok. Although, I see the mechanical reason, as Charisma influences at least any "basics" (saves, attack bonus, skill points per level, etc...), I still see no logical reason for the -2 Cha penalty at 3rd level.
huntercc 05-09-06, 11:31 AM	Although, I see the mechanical reason, as Charisma influences at least any "basics" (saves, attack bonus, skill points per level, etc...), I still see no logical reason for the -2 Cha penalty at 3rd level. Well there were a couple of reasons I did this. (1) I like to think that part of the charisma penalty is due to the half-giant's size, which goes to Large at 3rd level... there is nothing in any book that says this, it's more of an opinion than anything (2) I had to find a way to balance the ability scores at 1st level I did notice a couple of examples in Savage Species that give +2 to charisma at various levels, but I didn't see anything that gave a penalty to it. My logic is probably flawed... in fact, now that I look at it again, I could probably have the half-giant start with +2 Con and -4 Cha, and at 3rd level give him a +2 Con instead of the -2 Cha... I've convinced myself, how about you?
Bengeldorn 05-09-06, 11:40 AM	Well there were a couple of reasons I did this. (1) I like to think that part of the charisma penalty is due to the half-giant's size, which goes to Large at 3rd level... there is nothing in any book that says this, it's more of an opinion than anything (2) I had to find a way to balance the ability scores at 1st level I did notice a couple of examples in Savage Species that give +2 to charisma at various levels, but I didn't see anything that gave a penalty to it. My logic is probably flawed... in fact, now that I look at it again, I could probably have the half-giant start with +2 Con and -4 Cha, and at 3rd level give him a +2 Con instead of the -2 Cha... I've convinced myself, how about you?I'm not quite sure, +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int ,-4 Wis ,-4 Cha as base traits are pretty bad IMO. I was thinking about a logical reason for a while, and the only reason I could see, is that the -2 penalty is based on the Axis Alignment. IMO Size shouldn't change Charisma. Well, I don't know.....The Half-Giant is a hard nut to crack. The racial HD and level adjustment are basically based on his ability scores. Otherwise he has no real benefits expcept being Large.
huntercc 05-09-06, 11:48 AM	I'm not quite sure, +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int ,-4 Wis ,-4 Cha as base traits are pretty bad IMO. I was thinking about a logical reason for a while, and the only reason I could see, is that the -2 penalty is based on the Axis Alignment. IMO Size shouldn't change Charisma. Well, I don't know.....The Half-Giant is a hard nut to crack. The racial HD and level adjustment are basically based on his ability scores. Otherwise he has no real benefits expcept being Large. Yeah it's not easy to spread that stuff out. And I like your suggestion that the axis alignment would affect the charisma. Although, according to MM pg 291, Large size does give +4 Con... so I can see an argument for either way.
Bengeldorn 05-10-06, 07:04 AM	Yeah it's not easy to spread that stuff out. And I like your suggestion that the axis alignment would affect the charisma. Although, according to MM pg 291, Large size does give +4 Con... so I can see an argument for either way. I recently got a look inside Savage Species and found the Half-Ogre. Looking at the racial traits, I'm not sure, if the Half-Giant's traits are that good. The Savage Species' Half-Ogre has no racial Hit Dice, and still a level adjustment +1. Considering the Half-Ogre has no Axis Alignment, which IMHO is a penalty and not a benefit, 2 points less on Str and Con, but no penalty on Wisdom and 2 points less penalty on Int and Cha, 2 HD and +1 LA doesn't seem to equal things out. Besides that the Half-Ogre's is higher than the Half-Ginat's one. So taking the Savage Species' Half-Ogre as base, a Half-Giant with following traits would be fine to me: +6 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha Large: As Large creature, half-giants have a -1 penalty to AC and a -1 penalty on all attack rolls. They also have a reach of 10 feet. Half-giant base land speed is 40 feet. Darkvision 60 feet. Natural Armor +2 Giant Type Axis Alignment Favored Class: Barbarian Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gith, Giant, Tarek. LA +1 IMHO +6 on Str would be still enough for Half-Giants.
huntercc 05-10-06, 08:49 AM	That would be doable, but my goal was to make these "classes" so at the final level you would be equal to the athas.org version of the race. If you want a custom half-giant for your campaign I could help you put together a new race/class for that too. As for the half-ogre's hit dice and LA... don't forget that hit dice don't count towards LA, only towards ECL. LA is affected by ability scores and special abilities (fly speed, spells, etc). It sounded like you had that a little confused, maybe not. And I didn't get anywhere on this last night, hopefully tonight I'll get the chance :(