Post/Author/DateTime	Post
megatherion 01-30-06, 05:49 AM	Final version: The Diplomat PrC "Yes, I've been expecting you. I knew you'd change your mind. Very wise. Shred the veil of dread from your face, my friend, for as long as we are reasonable I'm sure we can come to an arrangement. And to no bodily harm." - Miresan, the elven diplomat, excercising a Subtle Threat to a human noble. The fine art of diplomacy - like everything else on Athas - has gone wild. People who call themselves diplomats do exist, but the art has long gone to brutality and then further into the art of savagery. Extortions, psionic pressures, murders and destruction are all parts of the modern art called - The Athasian Diplomacy. The Athasian Diplomat is an elaborate individual, he's very proud of what he can do without resorting to violence. He collects fame and reputation like any veteran mercenary and let it do it's job for him. His skills include the sweet art of persuasion, followed by subtle threats, and then intimidation. If all fails, only then will the Diplomat resort to direct, brutal and often very messy violence. Even the violence strengthens the Diplomat's reputation and teaches others a lesson about refusing a good negotiator. Needless to say, Diplomats are very powerful agents in any endeavor, be it merchant agreements, negotiations, or persuaders. Humans, dwarves and elves are natural Diplomats. The dwarven focus is a strong tool when he receives a job that will take a lot of time and effort to negotiate. Charismatic and intelligent humans as well as elves, that have a streak for cruelty, will often become Diplomats and are very capable at their jobs. Their lack of telephatic talents are often a prerequisite at the negotiations table, and the fees for their services are often very generous. Other races are uncommon in this "profession". NPC Diplomats are common in almost all diplomatic relations between cities and major groups like the Merchant Houses. Since they do not necessarily have links to any city's templarate, and are known to generally lack the telepathic or any other powers, they are easy to trust and are natural messengers and negotiators of prices between the city-states. True telepaths rarely pursue this profession since psionics would easily be sensed and would most certainly ruin any serious negotiation. Hit Die: d6 Requirements Alignment: Any non-good. Skills: Diplomacy +8, Bluff +8, Sense Motive +5, Intimidate +5 Feats: Negotiator or Persuasive, Iron Will Special: Must be fluent in at least 4 languages other than Common. Must be literate with Common and at least one other language. Class Skills: The Diplomat's class skills are: Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Psionics), Move Silently, Open Lock, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Psicraft Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier. CL BAB F R W Special 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Patron Type, Unfinished businesses 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Quick Re-negotiation 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Powerful Elaboration, Slippery Mind 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Reputation +2 5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Resist Temptation 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Subtle Threat 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Forced Intimidation 8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Reputation +4 9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Unrefusable Offer, Mind Blank 10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Brutal and Messy Violence Class features Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Athasian Diplomats gain no additional weapon, armor or shield proficiencies. Powers known: At every even level the Diplomat gains the additional power points and powers known as if he had gained a level in what ever manifester class that he belonged to before he gained the prestige class. If he has more than one manifester class then he must choose only one to which to apply the increase. He does not gain any other benefit that a character of that class would normally gained, such as bonus feats or metapsionic feats. Patron type: There are three general types of patrons - Nobles, Merchant houses and Templars. A Diplomat has to choose one of them as his favorite Patron type, and the choice is permanent. Against his favorite patron type the Diplomat gains +1 bonus on Intimidate, Bluff and Sense Motive checks. Against other patron types the Diplomat gains +1 bonus on Diplomacy checks. Against his current employer, no matter his patron type, the Diplomat gains no bonuses of either kind. Definition of the employer, is "an individual or a representative of a group responsible for hiring the Diplomat". Definition of the Diplomat's target is "an individual or a representative of a group which has to yield to the employer's pressure". Both the employer and the target can be in the same group, and in fact it is allowed that an individual from a group hires the Diplomat to "force" his own group to some agreement (example: a merchant agent wants to force his own merchant house to raise his salary by 300%, so he hires a Diplomat). Unfinished business: When a diplomat is hired, he will not take another job until the current one is concluded. Be it his sense of duty in a lawful Diplomat or sense of pride in a more chaotic one, once he takes a job he'll pursue it to the resolution. Quick Re-negotiation (Ex): Seeing he made a mistake in his opening dialogue, at 2nd level the Diplomat can retry his Diplomacy check, but at -5 penalty. He also gains +2 bonus on Disguise check made to act in character. Powerful Elaboration (Ex): At 3rd level the Diplomat can force a persuasive argument. The diplomat gains +2 on his first Diplomacy check against an opponent. If the check doesn't succeed, the Diplomat can try an immediate Intimidate check at -5 penalty to push things through. If both fail, the Diplomat can try a desperate Bluff attempt at -10 penalty to cover up his failed Intimidate check. Slippery Mind (Ex): Use of mind-affecting powers is as common as illegal at the negotiations table. At 3rd level the Diplomat receives the Slippery Mind ability, as the rogue's special ability in the Player's Handbook. Reputation (Ex): At 4th level, as the Diplomat becomes more successful, his preferences become known along his successful negotiations. The Diplomat adapts. He gains a +2 bonus to his Diplomacy checks against his Patron Type, and a +2 bonus to his Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks against other patron types. The bonus increases to +4 at 8th level. Against his current employer he still does not gain any bonuses of either kind. Resist Temptation (Ex): At 5th level the Diplomat becomes quite adept at resisting telephatic intrusions. He gains +4 on Will saves against all mind-affecting powers. Subtle threat (Ex): Seeing the opponent is thick-headed, the 6th level Diplomat gains +3 bonus on Sense Motive checks, towards the effort to see what the opponent holds dear and valuable. Once the check is successful the Diplomat uses fear of destruction of property or killing of loved ones to aid his persuasion, gaining additional +3 bonus on Intimidate checks against that particular target. If the Sense Motive was unsuccessful, the Diplomat can retry as many times as he wishes, with a cumulative -5 penalty for each try. Forced Intimidation (Ex): If the target has nothing valuable to be destroyed, or is too confident in his bodyguard's abilities, force should be applied. At 7th level the Diplomat gains +2 on initiative checks against any person he had negotiations with. The Diplomat also loses any penalty on dealing subdual damage with a blunt weapon against that particular target. For every 10 points of subdual damage the Diplomat (ever) inflicted on the target, he gains +1 bonus on any charisma based check against that opponent. Once the opponent regains consciousness the Diplomat can try to re-open the negotiations. Unrefusable Offer (Ex): If a target is stubborn as a crodlu, and physically unaccessible, at 9th level the Diplomat can force destruction of that person's property and family, either singlehandedly or by hiring someone to do it. For every 1000Cp of property destroyed and every family or household member killed, the diplomat gains +2 on all charisma based skills against that opponent, if the opponent is still willing to listen. Mind blank (Sp): At 9th level The Diplomat becomes immune to psionic manipulations, having resisted the deed numerous times. The Diplomat's mind becomes completely sealed against involuntary intrusions as per Mind Blank spell. This spell-like ability is always considered active. Brutal and Messy Violence (Ex): After having been repeatedly refused, and if destruction of property didn't help, the Diplomat at 10th level can resort to violence as a last option. For every melee or ranged attack against a target that refused his Unrefusable Offer, the Diplomat gains +4 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on confirming of threat rolls, and +4 on damage rolls.
megatherion 01-30-06, 07:52 AM	One thing is bothering me - is he too powerful or not? Should I perhaps remove the whole sneak attack prerequisited and sneak attack increase? After all, this is not a fighter per se, he's a telepath by default, so should I dump that out?
Methvezem 01-30-06, 10:13 AM	First of all, I find that your PrCs' concepts are great. :thumbsup: Here's my comments about the diplomat PrC: I think it would be more appropriate to find a name without the term 'athasian' in it, something like intimidator, coercer, harrier, or hector, or something similar, since it's the specific niche addressed by this PrC. Please do the 3 introductory paragraphs like the standard PrCs, see those in the DS Prestige Class appendix 1, or in other PrCs posted, like mine, or Kalthandrix, or any other that follows that format. Perhaps the Linguist feat and 4 languages known requirements could be included in only one requirements, like 4 or 5 languages known. What is the definition of an employer? Is it specific, like a person, or general, like urik's templarate? Since a couple of abilities rely on this term, it needs to be easy to understood. IMO you can make more manifesting level available, perhaps even for the ten levels, because the abilities seems balanced. Good thing you got rid of the sneak attack and the poison use ability. About Subtle Threat, is the bonus to Diplomacy available against a person once the Sense Motive check is successfull? Isn't a Intimidate bonus more appropriate as the way to get the bonus is more for using intimidation? Can a dipomat retry against an opponent? If so, how many times? Shoudn't the Forced Intimidation and the Unrefuseable Offer abilities gives only bonus to Intimidate? Keep up the good work megatherion! :D
megatherion 01-30-06, 10:27 AM	First of all, I find that your PrCs' concepts are great. I think it would be more appropriate to find a name without the term 'athasian' in it, something like intimidator, coercer, harrier, or hector, or something similar, since it's the specific niche addressed by this PrC. I, in fact, rather like the name "diplomat", since it implies one of great skill and prestiege, while in fact they are brutal (though intelligent) thugs. The name is ironic and I would leave it for that very reason. I could remove the "Athasian" though. Please do the 3 introductory paragraphs like the standard PrCs, see those in the DS Prestige Class appendix 1, or in other PrCs posted, like mine, or Kalthandrix, or any other that follows that format. No problem, I simply wasn't aware there was a specific format for me to follow. I will check and fix those immediately. Perhaps the Linguist feat and 4 languages known requirements could be included in only one requirements, like 4 or 5 languages known. This is the tricky part. Even with the linguist feat this requirement implies the diplomat has to have at least 12 int. They are smart. They are persuasive. They only resort to violence as a last option. I think you're right, I'll dump the linguist and force the requirement to 5 languages - meaning a person with the feat will have a lower int requirement. What is the definition of an employer? Is it specific, like a person, or general, like urik's templarate? Since a couple of abilities rely on this term, it needs to be easy to understood. this is a general aspect, and is treated flexibly. You're right: more explanation is required: 1. If templar Hera hired a diplomat to force templar Pavek to sell stuff cheaply from Quarite directly to her, they both are in urikite templarate and are treated as individuals. 2. If Merchant house agent Keron hired the diplomat to force cheaper goods from Pavek, then one is a group, other an individual. 3. If merchant house Keron hired a diplomat to force cheap goods from Quarite itself, both are groups, and diplomat's bonuses apply to any representative from quarite who is authorised to negotiate. IMO you can make more manifesting level available, perhaps even for the ten levels, because the abilities seems balanced. Good thing you got rid of the sneak attack and the poison use ability. I think 5 levels are more than enough, but if more people think a few more wouldn't hurt I'll add it. About Subtle Threat, is the bonus to Diplomacy available against a person once the Sense Motive check is successfull? Isn't a Intimidate bonus more appropriate as the way to get the bonus is more for using intimidation? Can a dipomat retry against an opponent? If so, how many times? Yes. One has to see what the other holds dear in order to threaten it. You're right, it should be intimidation, I'll fix that. Yes, the diplomat can retry but each subsequent attempt is made with cumulative -5 penalty. I'll add that too. Shoudn't the Forced Intimidation and the Unrefuseable Offer abilities gives only bonus to Intimidate? No. Since once the diplomat proved he's quite capable of delivering damage, he then returns to the peaceful manner of conversation, giving the opponent the chance to "act reasonably", before more damage occurs. Keep up the good work megatherion! :D My thanx for the corrections! :D
Kalthandrix 01-30-06, 11:24 AM	Here are my two bits- You do not need the +1 manifester material in there the way you have it. Following the general PrC format, it should appear more like this Powers known: A psiologist gains a the additional power points and powers known as if he had gained a level in what ever manifester class that he belonged to before he gained the prestige class. If he has more than one manifester class then he must choose only one to which to apply the increase. He does not gain any other benefit that a character of that class would normally gained, such as bonus feats or metapsionic feats. Except you would add on the first line that "At each even level within this class, a diplomat gains additional power points and powers known..." Why do they have to be evil- this does not really sit well with me. It might have been a better fit when you had the sneak attack and posion use, but I do not think evil should be a requirement now. How about adding literacy to the class skills- they would be working with educated people more often and using written contracts would be the norm- so they should be able to read- maybe it should be required that they can read like two of the languages they can speak as well. Some of the negatiotion abilities you have seem to go counter to having psionic ability at all- why require psionics when most of the abilities seem to stem from physical action and violence? If you keep the skills this way, you should change the ability modifier that effects diplomacy from Cha to Str. I was really thrilled with the PrC at first until it seemed to degenerate into a bullying thug. IMO you would do greater justice to this PrC is you kept your focus on the psychological aspects of negotiation rather then just beating consessions out of someone- remember, the people he is working for still have to work together and if the negotiator is nothing but a brutal thug then who would really stick with a contract made between houses? In the beginning of some of the skills, you switch between using words and numbers (second and 2nd) when talking about the class feature and what level it is gained at- I would suggest making them all the same. Overall, nice concept, but IMO the requirements and the class features and abilities seem to differ greatly from one another- I would like to see it less the thug and more the sly, nimble-tounged diplomat type. Keep it up though :D
megatherion 01-30-06, 11:42 AM	Here are my two bits- You do not need the +1 manifester material in there the way you have it. Following the general PrC format, it should appear more like this Except you would add on the first line that "At each even level within this class, a diplomat gains additional power points and powers known..." Why do they have to be evil- this does not really sit well with me. It might have been a better fit when you had the sneak attack and posion use, but I do not think evil should be a requirement now. How about adding literacy to the class skills- they would be working with educated people more often and using written contracts would be the norm- so they should be able to read- maybe it should be required that they can read like two of the languages they can speak as well. Done, done, done and done. :) Some of the negatiotion abilities you have seem to go counter to having psionic ability at all- why require psionics when most of the abilities seem to stem from physical action and violence? If you keep the skills this way, you should change the ability modifier that effects diplomacy from Cha to Str. I was really thrilled with the PrC at first until it seemed to degenerate into a bullying thug. IMO you would do greater justice to this PrC is you kept your focus on the psychological aspects of negotiation rather then just beating consessions out of someone- remember, the people he is working for still have to work together and if the negotiator is nothing but a brutal thug then who would really stick with a contract made between houses? They are thugs, but only as a last resort. Out of 9 special abilities only 2 promote violence, and one of those is subdual in nature. Diplomat is intelligent, he won't kill a person who he has to make an ally, and basically all of his abilities are based on charismatic and intelligent speech. He's not a sort of person who will go back to his employer without finishing the contract, and if he indeed uses violence to that goal it's often to solve those issues which won't be hurt if the target is dead. Remember. role-play intelligently. And as for the psionic abilities, hey, they're here to be used. He's a telepath! Of course he can use them whenever he wishes but during important high-up negotiations the target will undoubtedly have psionic protection and/or a psionic bodyguard. Inteligence and charisma prevails here, not raw psionic power. In the beginning of some of the skills, you switch between using words and numbers (second and 2nd) when talking about the class feature and what level it is gained at- I would suggest making them all the same. Fixed, thanx. Overall, nice concept, but IMO the requirements and the class features and abilities seem to differ greatly from one another- I would like to see it less the thug and more the sly, nimble-tounged diplomat type. This is Athas. :) A sly nimble-tongued diplomat could very well be played by a common rogue or a bard. This specific diplomat is all that and more. backed with psionic powers together with the extreme ability at negotiation, he's as sly as you're going to get, I'm afraid. He's not a common thug, so don't look at him like that. Rather as an thug in a suit, with a silver tongue and a mission.
Kalthandrix 01-30-06, 11:47 AM	But- why even require psionics in the first place if none of the class features they gain have noting to do with psionics. It just looks like you added psionics 'just because'. You have one ability that gives them a +2 to their power DC for charm and other mind effecting powers but that is it.
megatherion 01-30-06, 11:51 AM	But- why even require psionics in the first place if none of the class features they gain have noting to do with psionics. It just looks like you added psionics 'just because'. You have one ability that gives them a +2 to their power DC for charm and other mind effecting powers but that is it. Ah, so you would have me either remove the psionics entirely and add.. sneak damage again? Or put in more psionics? I see your point - please make a suggestion. I put it in since I thought telepaths would have an edge over any 'normal' negotiator, and that's it. They'd know when they were targets of psionic powers - and in fact i think that's exactly what I'm going to add: resistance to mind-influencing powers! Edit: done and done. slippery mind and mind blank, as special protections at the negotiations table. Now you see why they have to have high charisma bonuses - their psionics won't work on another diplomat. *snicker* :D
megatherion 01-31-06, 07:22 AM	I have slept on this and woke up not much smarter. So, this is a tepelath psion, which traded 5 levels for a bit better attack bonus, excellent mental protections and excellent bonuses concerning all kinds of diplomacy, be it bluffing, sensing lies or intimidation, along with standard smooth-talk. He didn't gain any fighter-like bonuses except the one at 10th lvl which again is only usable against a person he already spent days talking to. I think this is a very balanced PrC and neither too powerful nor too weak to be unable to defend himself. He can always intimidate the enemy into submition. Are there any additional ideas or corrections? Suggestions? I'd appreciate any new and interesting idea! :)
megatherion 02-01-06, 03:03 AM	Tis been a couple of days without anyone commenting or pointing at bugs, and since I tried and failed to improve it further I think this is it. I'll leave it like this for a couple of days then submit it. I thought about it a bit further - what if I remove completely the psionic advancement and requirewments and leave the slippery mind and mind blank? I think it would be better.... eh?
megatherion 02-01-06, 03:38 AM	But- why even require psionics in the first place if none of the class features they gain have noting to do with psionics. It just looks like you added psionics 'just because'. You have one ability that gives them a +2 to their power DC for charm and other mind effecting powers but that is it. Ye were damn right Kal, look at the beauty now. Nobility and brutish behaviour, melded as one. Even practically prohibits telepaths!
Ruhl-Than Sage 02-01-06, 07:57 AM	Makes for a good bard PrC, as it should :)
Kalthandrix 02-01-06, 08:12 AM	Makes for a good bard PrC, as it should :) I concure- this would be excellent for a bard prc, if they decided to diverge slightly from their core class abilities. I will have to spend some additional time reading it all over again (no time now, darn audits) but I will be sure to give it a good look over again soon and let you know if I see anything else.
megatherion 02-05-06, 02:51 PM	Kal, did you by any chance manage to read it through, shake it a bit? I see it's not getting any more comments so if it's fine by you and others i'll wrap it up for the PrC2.
Shatter Star 02-06-06, 08:25 PM	I like it.