Post/Author/DateTime	Post
qstor 12-15-05, 03:50 PM	has anyone playtested Leroy Van Camps combat rules from spelljammer.org? Do they play out well? Mike
qstor 03-20-07, 04:05 PM	*HUGE bump* no replies????? Mike
Jaid 03-20-07, 05:42 PM	these boards don't exactly have a large number of people reading them, you know. many of those who do read them are probably old 2e players, for that matter. furthermore, if you want people to comment on a given subject, you should probably make sure they can tell what you are talking about... for example, in this case, you might consider linking (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/) to the rules in question so that people can look it over. anyways, i personally have not tested them. keep in mind they are 3.0 by the look of things, and not 3.5, which may have some minor effects on how things would work, i suppose...
Arcanda 03-21-07, 05:17 PM	Ship combat rules from 2ed Spelljammer boxed set rock! They perfectly work, and there is no need to have 3e rules. There is no need of a 3e at all!
bigmac 03-25-07, 11:30 AM	Ship combat rules from 2ed Spelljammer boxed set rock! They perfectly work, and there is no need to have 3e rules. There is no need of a 3e at all! Well that is one side of the arguement, but if we assume that this thread is for people who actually like 3e (or 3.5e before anyone mentions that) then those new rules are a good attempt to make SJ combat compatible with the d20 System. However, I have to say that while I am a big fan of SJ, I always thought the combat system played more like a wargame than part of a RPG. While I am impressed by Leroy Van Camp's rules, I'd rather see a 3e combat system that works on exactly the same timescale as 3.*e D&D. That might change a few things to keep the feel the same as 2e. (Tactical speed of ships might need to be altered under the conversion rules in order to get hex movement and weapon range to stay the same). Making a ship function in a similar way to a creature or character makes it easier to do combat between a ship and an airborn creature, such as a dragon. A change from AR to AC makes sense as 3e players understand this. Stationary ships that are unmanned (nobody on the helm) might need to be treated as unattended objects instead of having an AC based on AR. The ships AC could be something partially generated by the actions of the helmsman. The same probably applies for any one who boards a ship and then tries to attack it (for example a dwarf who tries to cut a ship in two with an axe). Once someone is onboard the helmsman can not swerve away or shake them off. The ships gravity will make their attacks easy. Manoverabilty Class needs to be changed to make it compatible with flying creatures (although ships should probably perform better in the void than in atmosphere). Hull Points are harder for 3e players to understand and don't fit in with anything else. I'd probably try to use hit points instead. However, you shouldn't be able to cut a ship apart with a dagger, so I'd probably build in a hardness to stop small damage affecting the ship. For a first-off attempt I'd go for multiplying Hull Points by 10 to create hit points and giving all ships a hardness of 10. This doesn't work exactly the same as the previous system, but I think the difference in damage is 1 Hull Point per attack. I'd like the helmsman (PC or NPC) to be responsible for the ship's initiative roll. Saving throws need be looked at. A ship is an attended item, so I'd like to make him/her roll any saving throws the ship makes. There was originally no saving throw for spelljammer shock, but that doesn't fit in with 3e, so I'd give the helmsman one (I'm not sure what type yet - reflex would be used if you wanted to jump off of the helm and will would be used to resist the shock). The saving throw DC could be a high one if necessary, but the helmsman should get a chance to resist. I'd also make the helmsman responsible for ramming attacks and would give them a d20 attack roll of some sort. (I might be tempted to make this similar to a grapple attack, but would prefer a vanilla attack vs AC rule.) I'd allow helmsmen to use the Weapon Focus feat to improve their ramming attack rolls and I'd allow multiclass spellcaster/fighters to use the Weapon Specialisation feat to add 2 to damage rolls (although as it would be 2 hp rather than 2 Hull Points that would probably be a waste of a feat). I can't imagine a multiclass spellcaster/rogue getting a chance to "backstab" another ship, but they don't have vital organs so I wouldn't allow this sort of attack. For each ship's weapon to be run by a PC or NPC who is assisted by anyone else in the crew (i.e. assume that the +2 adjustment is built into SJ weapon stats and subtract it if the weapon is undercrewed). Again I'd allow the Weapon Specialisation and Weapon Focus feats to be used to improve attack rolls and damage (Weapon Specialisation would be more worth while when you can do 2 hp per attack rather than per combat). With the helmsman and crew getting different initiative rolls you get a problem. Do weapon crewmen get to do a similar thing to a Shot on the Run or Rideby Attack for free? I'd say no. I'd say that if they have a lower initiative than the helmsman they are too slow to react to the ships movement. If they have a higher initiative, I'd allow them to hold on action and wait for an event to happen, but unless you have someone shouting orders it would be very hard for someone on a weapon to work out the best time to shoot. Attacks from one ship to the crew or weapons of another need looking at. From one point of view it could be argued that a ship's crew gets cover from the ship. From another point of view attacks on weapons could be treated the same as striking a weapon. However, both of these need looking at to make sure the feel of SJ combat is retained (and the new rules are not overly complex). Flying a ship into or through another ships hex should probably create an attack of opportunity that could be used by anyone on the other ship. Feats are feature of 3rd edition rules and it makes sense to consider creating feats that improve space combat. Helmsmen should be able to get an Improved Spelljammer Shock Resistance feat. Weapon crewmen should be able to use most of the ranged combat feats and maybe get new ones. A Ride by Attack/Shot on the Run style feat should really be in there. After a bit of thought I've realised that Ride by Attack applies to the rider rather than the mount, so I think that a Fly by Attack feat should apply to the passengers manning the ship's weapons rather than the helmsman. Ship grappling rules should be compatible with the normal rules so that you can have a grappling combat between a ship's helmsman and creatures as well as between two helmsmen. Compatible rules would also allow crew with grappling hooks to make grappling attacks against the helmsman of another ship. If a helmsman got "pinned". This means that crew with grappling hooks need an exception to the rules that normally make them automatically fail. You also need to increase the number of people who can enter a grapple if crew are using lines to grapple another ship. And just when you think you have everything sewn up you will realise that the Spelljammer spells that affect ships will need to be altered to fit in with the changes. That is a lot of work, so Leroy Van Camp's rules are the way to go until it gets done. But I'll be looking forward to the time when the Ships in Wildspace (http://www.spelljammer.org/sj3e/#h_ShipsinWildspace) PDF gets finished.
Arcanda 03-26-07, 05:40 PM	Well if we assume that this thread is for people who actually like 3e (or 3.5e before anyone mentions that) then those new rules are a good attempt to make SJ combat compatible with the d20 System. Only a Kobold would like 3.x ed rules! And only a stupid Kobold would mention 3.5e becouse you mentioned only 3e, and not 3.0 nor 3.5! P.S.: as far as I know, Kobolds are not a major spelljamming race!
Ialdabaoth 03-28-07, 08:58 PM	While I am impressed by Leroy Van Camp's rules, I'd rather see a 3e combat system that works on exactly the same timescale as 3.*e D&D. Hull Points are harder for 3e players to understand and don't fit in with anything else. I'd probably try to use hit points instead. I'd also make the helmsman responsible for ramming attacks and would give them a d20 attack roll of some sort. On Beyond the Moons I am the author of two 3e combat systems. From your comments I am getting the impression you are referring to the 2e-to-3e “minimal changes” version. That article was designed specifically to make as much use as possible of the 2e combat rules in 3e. It was “work for hire” in that Static asked me to whip something up. The timing rules are odd, and if I was writing it now, I would do it differently. The other system is a full-blown 3e replacement. It addresses some of the things you mention, but not all, though some of that stems from a difference in view. It uses hit points, DR, normal combat rounds, and so on, though I kept the SJ maneuver system, since it offers a wider range, for example. It is not perfect, but I have used it and it works well, and I have had emails from people who have used it and liked it. Plus, it meshes with my 3e ship design system, also on BtM.
bigmac 04-03-07, 04:43 PM	On Beyond the Moons I am the author of two 3e combat systems. From your comments I am getting the impression you are referring to the 2e-to-3e “minimal changes” version. That article was designed specifically to make as much use as possible of the 2e combat rules in 3e. It was “work for hire” in that Static asked me to whip something up. The timing rules are odd, and if I was writing it now, I would do it differently. The other system is a full-blown 3e replacement. It addresses some of the things you mention, but not all, though some of that stems from a difference in view. It uses hit points, DR, normal combat rounds, and so on, though I kept the SJ maneuver system, since it offers a wider range, for example. It is not perfect, but I have used it and it works well, and I have had emails from people who have used it and liked it. Plus, it meshes with my 3e ship design system, also on BtM. I didn't realise there were two systems written by you. I've only seen the one that is mentioned in Appendix A of the unfinished Ships in Wildspace SJ3e netbook (http://www.spelljammer.org/sj3e/#h_ShipsinWildspace). This is your Spelljammer Combat in 3e D&D (http://www.spelljammer.org/rules/simpleSTS.html) rules. That is the version that says "A turn is 12 seconds long, which is equal to two normal combat rounds." I've had a look around, but that is the only system I can find that has your name on it. Is the other system something that was put up without a credit to you? Or could it be something that Static hasn't got round to uploading yet? I couldn't find your other rules for ages, but then stumbled onto them on the 3e Ship Construction and Combat Rules (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/) page. There is a PDF called 3e Spelljammer: Ship Combat (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/3eShipCombat.pdf) there and it does seem to be more updated than the other page. However, it is currently in Lost Spheres section, so looks like it is older material. If [B]that is the newer system (and I think it is), then Static will need to put that one into Ships of Wildspace. Between that PDF and your 3e Spelljammer: Ship Construction (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/3eShipConstruction.pdf) PDF you have at least a third of Ships of Wildspace sorted.
bigmac 04-03-07, 05:06 PM	From your 3e Ship Construction and Combat Rules (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/) page: [B]How You Can Help These systems are being made available in the hopes that people will offer feedback. Here is how you can help. * Read everything and offer your feedback. Anything can help, except for possibly insults. Even if you never use it for anything, offering up criticism might spark ideas. * Use the ship construction system, possibly aided by The Ship Yard, to create new ships or convert old ships to the new system. Look for anything that seems odd. Try to work or break the system. Imagine an amount of gold you might have as a character and build the best ship you can with that gold. Try different amounts, say: 15,000 gp, 15,000 gp, 50,000 gp, 100,000 gp and 250,000 gp. * Use the sample stats for crew and ships and run a few combats. There are no helm rules, so either use the old rules or simply give each ship a speed, which should work fine (ranges from 2 to 6 should work best). Try and look for stuff out of the ordinary. Generally speaking, when all things are equal, ships that cost more should win more often. If not, there is a flaw in the system. Offer any feedback on how your combats went. * Create new ships and try them in combat. If you have someone who can help, each of you take a given amount of money to build a ship and see who wins with their design. Try it with each person having two or more of their designed ships. Offer any feedback on how your combats went. * Use The Ship Yard to build a number of ships and check the results for accuracy. Perhaps build three ships with paper, pencil and calculator, then build the exact same ships with The Ship Yard, and see if there are any discrepancies. If you don't mind, I suggest that we hijack this thread and turn it into a place to get your rules out of beta. You also say this: There is no system for helms. The systems here were written to be essentially independent from how helms work (perhaps with the exception of hit points and an assumed stress on the ship). I will write up my helm rules and make them available, but you should be able to make whatever you currently use work with these systems, unless you have something in mind far and away from the old 2e version. Here is something I made earlier (note that I've changed SR into TR as per the instructions on the Spelljammer for D&D 3e page): Spellcasters and Spelljamming Spelljamming is a process that allows a ship to fly through space. Magical devices on the ships, known as helms, convert mystical energy into motive power. Magical energy, psionic energy and even the energy from the life force of living beings have all been used by various helm types. Arcane and divine spellcasters are able to use spelljamming helms that take energy from their prepared spells. Spelljamming is a vital part of spacefaring civilisation, and helms do not work without spellcasters to power them. In wildspace spellcasters may find that they are more in demand for their ability to spelljam than their ability to cast spells. While any spellcasting character can move a ship, characters of higher level gain more control over the ship during take off, landing and combat. A high level spellcaster may be able to move a ship so fast that they can avoid combat altogether. The two main types of helm a spellcaster is likely to use are the minor helm and the major helm. Both types look like ornate chairs with recesses for the head and limbs. Any spellcaster can use a helm without having to learn any new skills, all they need to do to use the helm is sit down on it. A person using a spelljamming helm is known as a helmsman. These helms (and other types) are explained in more detail in Ships in Wildspace, Chapter 5: Ship Equipment and Magic. Helmsmen Sitting on the helm creates a mental connection between the helmsman and the ship. This gives the helmsman the feeling they are in two places and in two forms at once. The helmsman feels like they are both themself and the ship. They gain helmsight, which enables them to see what is happening on and around the deck of their ship - a helmsman has a general sense of movement on the deck but needs to concentrate to look at an individual crew member. The helmsman retains their normal vision, although some helmsmen prefer to close their eyes while on the helm. They can talk and act normally with their own body, but at the same time the ship acts like an additional part of their body that they can move at will. All a helmsman has to do is decide where to move the ship and it will follow their commands, moving in the speed and direction that they will it to. A helmsman feels a warm feeling, as if immersed within warm water, while sitting in the helm. They also feel a sensation similar to pins and needles (but painless) when moving the ship. If the ship is damaged the helmsman feels it. These sharp bursts of pains can scare people that have not experienced them before, but do not harm or distract a helmsman. However, when the ship takes a critical hit, there is a posibility that the pain is so intense that the helmsman suffers from something called spelljammer shock and falls into a coma. Spelljammer shock and other critical hits on ships are explained in Ships in Wildspace, Chapter 4: Combat Among the Stars. The helm draws a helmsman's spells off slowly throughout the day. However, a spellcaster can not get on a helm for a few minutes, then get off and access the rest of their spells. The mystical connection between a helmsman and a ship is not totally broken when a helmsman leaves the helm. Spells contine to be absorbed slowly by the helm and are not available for casting - most spellcasters feel as if all their spells vanish the instant they sit on the helm. A helmsman needs a good rest to break the connection, until then spells continue to flow into the helm (although the helmsman looses helmsight, the ability to control the ship, the pain of ship damage and the risk of spelljammer shock when they are not on the helm). The speed that a helmsman can move a ship varies according to the environment it is flying through (and sometimes depends on the helmsman's spellcasting level. In the depth of wildspace, where ships spend most of their time, the ship accellerates to spelljamming speed (100 million miles per day). Outside a crystal sphere any ship can enter fast moving phlogiston rivers that take the ship to much faster speeds (because of the nature of the flow, the exact speeds are very difficult to calculate). At spelljamming speed and in the phlogiston, the abilty of the helmsman makes no difference - a helmsman really comes into their own when the ship is forced to slow down. When a ship is taking off or landing, or when it comes close to a large object like another ship, the ship drops to what is known as 'tactical speed'. At tactical speed, the speed of the ship is partly dependent on the casting level of the spellcaster using the helm and partly dependent on the type of helm. Generally, a spellcaster with a higher casting level can move a ship faster than a spellcaster of a lower level, and generally a spellcaster on a major helm can move a ship faster than a spellcaster of equal level on a minor helm. Bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards (including specialist wizards) have a casting level equal to their class level. However, paladins and rangers both have casting levels that are half their class level (with characters below 3rd level having no spelljamming ability and characters that are 4th and 5th level only gaining spelljamming ability if they qualify for bonus spells). Table 1 (Caster Levels of Spellcasting Characters) shows the casting level for all standard spellcasting classes. Multiclass characters with more than one spellcasting class should add up all their casting levels for spelljamming purposes. Table 1: Caster Levels of Spellcasting Characters Casting Casting Level Level Class Paladin or Other Level Ranger Spellcasters 1 +0 +1 2 +0 +2 3 +0 +3 4 +2/+0* +4 5 +2/+0* +5 6 +3 +6 7 +3 +7 8 +4 +8 9 +4 +9 10 +5 +10 11 +5 +11 12 +6 +12 13 +6 +13 14 +7 +14 15 +7 +15 16 +8 +16 17 +8 +17 18 +9 +18 19 +9 +19 20 +10 +20 * Paladins and rangers at 4th and 5th levels only gain spells (and therefore spelljamming ability) if they qualify for bonus spells. With bonus spells they gain +2 casting levels for spelljamming purposes, but without them they gain nothing and can not spelljam until they reach 6th level. Tactical Raiting (TR) At tactical speed, the amount of movement a ship gains from its combination of helmsman and helmtype is called the tactical raiting (TR). Tactical raiting limits the amount of movement and turns that a helmsman can make (although the ships manouverability class (MC) has a limiting effect on turns). Because all combat occurs at tactical speed, the amount of ships raiting a helmsman generates is important. Tactical raiting is especially important if a helmsman's ship is grappled (or grapples another ship). When two ships grapple, their mass becomes one larger connected mass - the helmsman with the highest TR gains control of both ships (if their helm type can cope with a mass that large). As long as ships remain grappled, the strongest helmsman can tow or push the ship of the weaker helmsman. The exact details of what a helmsman can achive with TR during combat is explained in Ships in Wildspace, Chapter 4: Combat Among the Stars. A minor helm converts a helmsman's spells into tactical raiting at a rate of 1 level of TR for every 3 caster levels. A major helm converts a helmsman's spells into tactical raiting at a rate of 1 level of TR for every 2 caster levels. Both types provide a minimum of 1 TR. These are not the only differences between the two helms - a major helm can move a more massive ship than a minor one. Full details of helms are explained in Ships in Wildspace, Chapter 5: Ship Equipment and Magic. Table 2 (Tactical Raiting Generated by Main Helm Types) shows the TR that a spellcaster can generate on a minor and major helm. Table 2 (Tactical Raiting Generated by Main Helm Types) Helmsman Major Minor Casting Helm Helm Level SR SR 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 1 1 4 2 1 5 2 1 6 3 2 7 3 2 8 4 2 9 4 3 10 5 3 11 5 3 12 6 4 13 6 4 14 7 4 15 7 5 16 8 5 17 8 5 18 9 6 19 9 6 20 10 6 A spellcaster needs to be rested and have their full quota of spells memorised for their ship to benifit from maximum TR. Two things cause a helmsman to suffer a loss of TR: 1) Spells cast before spelljamming cause a drop of 1 TR per spell. 2) Spelljamming for more than 12 hours causes a drop of 1 TR per hour. TR does not drop below 1. A helmsman who stays on the helm for a full 24 hours passes out from exaustion and looses the ability to spelljam again until fully rested. Please note that this text refers to chapters of the SJ3e rules that are not yet published.
Ialdabaoth 04-04-07, 07:21 PM	I couldn't find your other rules for ages, but then stumbled onto them on the 3e Ship Construction and Combat Rules (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/) page. There is a PDF called 3e Spelljammer: Ship Combat (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/3eShipCombat.pdf) there and it does seem to be more updated than the other page. However, it is currently in Lost Spheres section, so looks like it is older material. If [B]that is the newer system (and I think it is), then Static will need to put that one into Ships of Wildspace. Between that PDF and your 3e Spelljammer: Ship Construction (http://lost.spelljammer.org/TBLIV/lsccs3e/3eShipConstruction.pdf) PDF you have at least a third of Ships of Wildspace sorted. That’s the one. I believe that version is slightly out of date, though the latest is barely different, mostly just a few clarifications. It has been so long since I worked on it, I forget. I know a number of people have worked out their own combat and ship systems, but I have yet to see anything I like better than my own. But, part of that stems from the fact that I am not looking to make it as close to 3e as possible, such as using squares instead of hexes, or using 3e maneuverability instead of the 2e lettered approach. My 2e ship construction system was wildly popular back in the day. Despite the fact my 3e ship construction system is based on the 2e version, but well adapted to 3e, in my opinion, it is not as popular as the 2e version was. Still, I have received some feedback on both systems since I made them available, and have fine-tuned them as a result. More feedback would be cool, though.
Ialdabaoth 04-04-07, 07:24 PM	If you don't mind, I suggest that we hijack this thread and turn it into a place to get your rules out of beta. I am certainly amenable to feedback, but I am not so sure the system will ever be out of beta. That would require me to either get much more feedback from people using the system, or for me to run a full Spelljammer campaign using the system. The latter is possible, but not in the cards for the next few years. But, again, I would be happy to discuss the system and listen to feedback. My systems are not perfect, and every time I read them over I see things I want to change. Lately, though, I have not put much energy into Spelljammer. You also say this: “There is no system for helms. The systems here were written to be essentially independent from how helms work (perhaps with the exception of hit points and an assumed stress on the ship). I will write up my helm rules and make them available, but you should be able to make whatever you currently use work with these systems, unless you have something in mind far and away from the old 2e version.” That page has the basics of the helm system I use. Either way, I am not inclined to closely tie my systems for ship construction and combat into specific 3e helm rules, for the reasons in the quote above. The 2e rules for helms are not something I am fond of any more, and thus am not inclined to use them or anything else closely based on them. I know my helm rules are not going to be to most people’s tastes, but I like them quite a bit, and they meet my own needs and preferences for helms in 3e. Most notably, I want anyone to be able to pilot the ship with the right skill; spells and spellcasters still provide the raw power to the helm, but anyone with the skills can pilot a spelljamming ship.
Silverblade The Enchanter 04-09-07, 02:55 AM	hm Good stuff here :) We need sizes larger than Colossal, SJ ships must be kept inline with 3rd ed sizes, as mentioned elsewhere. One flaw of D&D combat is that moving targets do not get an AC penalty (or attack penealty if you are moving), alas that is not 3rd ed cannon, but should be. if ship hulls are expressed as hit points, and with hardness, that will make things easier to work out. I like that. i'd preffer if siege engines did damage based off the size of the projectile, plus a hefty strength bonus. Just like a gun, they don't fire "magically powerful/strange" ammunition, they use simple mechanical advantage to hurl a bolt or stone with the force of a giant or more. -Was reading a book with photographs of a soild stone block wall, with holes in it punched by ballistas balls or bolts (I mean, SOLID stone blocks 2'x4' with holes smashed into them) -Thus I believe a Light Ballista should do 1d8+8 damage, Medium 1d10+16, and heavy 1d12+24, or the like, with corresponding bonuses to hit, but with penalties to hit based on size (large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12). -Reconstructions of the big rock hurling ballistae are truly massive things! -Again, damage equated with strength isn't cannon, see d20 Modern and guns, but it bugs me, because it's ignoring the facts and even D&Ds system. A balista bolt is just a short but stout spear, hurled very VERY hard. I loved 2nd ed, but 3rd ed is better, as long as you have a Dm who tells the group munchkin his "half troll-half dragon, lycanthropic undead doombunny" character is NOT going to be allowed! ;)
Jaid 04-11-07, 07:21 PM	my personal opinion on how to handle hit points/hull points: 1 spatial ton = 1 inch worth of hit points, based on material. hardness based on material also. i would also grant natural armor bonus to harder ships. naturally, all this means that the less sturdy ships need some fairly hefty mobility bonuses (maybe even give a bonus to speed in addition to MC), because stronger materials are going to do a heck of a lot to improve the toughness of the ships. ship's sizes should probably also be based on spatial tons... for example, 1-2 is huge, with a doubling in tonnage equating to an increase in size by 1 or something like that.
qstor 04-17-07, 10:04 PM	These are all good comments. One of the issues I have with Beyond the Moons is there's no good single source for all the 3.x conversions like the Dark Sun Community has done with their .pdf. I'd love to see the ship combat rules worked out and put together with some other playtested conversions of the Spelljammer rules for 3e. Mike
Calmar 04-22-07, 06:27 PM	Would not the rules for naval combat from Stormwrack work well enough? Just add a third dimension and adjust the speed... :)
bigmac 05-07-07, 10:23 AM	That’s the one. I believe that version is slightly out of date, though the latest is barely different, mostly just a few clarifications. It has been so long since I worked on it, I forget. That is the version up on your BtM Lost Sphere website. Have you got a copy of your "clarified version" somewhere else? I know a number of people have worked out their own combat and ship systems, but I have yet to see anything I like better than my own. It is the best I've seen too (so far). But, part of that stems from the fact that I am not looking to make it as close to 3e as possible, such as using squares instead of hexes, or using 3e maneuverability instead of the 2e lettered approach. I think that hex maps are essential for Spelljammer ship to ship combat. The 2e system uses those hexes to divide turning ability into 60 degree, 120 degree and 180 degree turning ability. This gives 3 different turning angles. Switching to square maps would cut that down to 90 or 180 degrees. (If ships grapple and combat moves from ship-to-ship combat to person-to-person combat then using square maps would make more sense.) I think I saw someone (it might have been Night Druid) who mapped the 3e manoverability class names onto the 2e MC letters and that seemed to work fairly well. I don't think the letters are needed as much as the hex maps. My 2e ship construction system was wildly popular back in the day. Despite the fact my 3e ship construction system is based on the 2e version, but well adapted to 3e, in my opinion, it is not as popular as the 2e version was. I think that your "3e" version is a lot harder to find than your "2e" version and that the names of both versions do not initially make it clear which is the most up to date version. Your "3e" version is also buried in the Lost Spheres while your "2e" version is on BtM (and listed in Appendix A of the partially complete Ships in Wildspace netbook). I think that is mostly what is holding your 3e rules back. Although the newer rules also "look" unfinished (with tables being called "Table XXX"). Your first book was good, but I'd like to see most of your rules in the 3e netbook put into the Ships in Wildspace book as they are 10 times better than your 2e book. I think that Chapter 1 and Chapter 4 of Ships in Wildspace would be mostly done if your 3e rules were ported over. I'd probably want to haggle over one or two minor details. Still, I have received some feedback on both systems since I made them available, and have fine-tuned them as a result. More feedback would be cool, though. I'd like to have Tactical Raiting (the BtM name for Ships Raiting) included in the rules because I feel that a 20th level cleric should be able to push a ship faster than a 1st level cleric (at tactical speed). You don't want that in your 3e rules, but it could still be added into "Ships in Wildspace" because you left a space for people to put in whatever they wanted. I am certainly amenable to feedback, but I am not so sure the system will ever be out of beta. That would require me to either get much more feedback from people using the system, or for me to run a full Spelljammer campaign using the system. The latter is possible, but not in the cards for the next few years. Maybe Ships in Wildspace is a way to get more people beta testing your 3e rules and also a way to allow people to see how your combat rules fit in with specific helm rules. But, again, I would be happy to discuss the system and listen to feedback. My systems are not perfect, and every time I read them over I see things I want to change. Lately, though, I have not put much energy into Spelljammer. You have done so much for Spelljammer that you have earned some time off! That page has the basics of the helm system I use. Either way, I am not inclined to closely tie my systems for ship construction and combat into specific 3e helm rules, for the reasons in the quote above. Fair enough. I hope you don't mind other people tacking helm rules onto the end of your 3e rules (as long as you get due credit for your bits). The 2e rules for helms are not something I am fond of any more, and thus am not inclined to use them or anything else closely based on them. I know my helm rules are not going to be to most people’s tastes, but I like them quite a bit, and they meet my own needs and preferences for helms in 3e. Most notably, I want anyone to be able to pilot the ship with the right skill; spells and spellcasters still provide the raw power to the helm, but anyone with the skills can pilot a spelljamming ship. Spelljammer does conflict with itself sometimes, because this sort of skill is kind of implied. Teldin Moore isn't a spellcaster, but is able to learn how to control a helm and the description of Death Helms implies that the victim gets to control the ship even if they are not a spellcaster. So I do agree that anyone should be able to learn a spelljamming skill, although I think that the skill should be useless to non-spellcasters unless they have access to a helm that takes power from somewhere else. (For example a Dwarven Citadel could have an "officer" called the Forgemaster who gets to control the movement of the ship and has a spelljamming skill even if he/she is not a spellcaster.) One of the issues I have with Beyond the Moons is there's no good single source for all the 3.x conversions like the Dark Sun Community has done with their .pdf. I'd love to see the ship combat rules worked out and put together with some other playtested conversions of the Spelljammer rules for 3e. So would I. Keep watching the Spelljammer for D&D 3rd Edition (http://www.spelljammer.org/sj3e/) page because that is where they will appear.
bigmac 05-07-07, 12:01 PM	Would not the rules for naval combat from Stormwrack work well enough? Just add a third dimension and adjust the speed... :) As far as I know there is no open game content in Stormwrack. It would be better to convert the 2e Spelljammer rules to avoid stepping on Wizard of the Coast's toes. We need sizes larger than Colossal, SJ ships must be kept inline with 3rd ed sizes, as mentioned elsewhere. I think that size becomes pretty meaningless once you get over colossal. I think that ships need to be treated in two ways. During ship to ship combat they need to have some sort of size scale that relates ship sizes to each other. But if a PC/NPC boards an enemy ship and decides to chop it up with an axe then they are pretty much guaranteed to have an automatic success with any attack rolls. I'm quite happy for a "tiny ship" to be equal to a "huge creature" at distance, but once a character boards a ship it should be treated as an immobile object. One flaw of D&D combat is that moving targets do not get an AC penalty (or attack penealty if you are moving), alas that is not 3rd ed cannon, but should be. That is moving into the realm of house rules. I'd rather see the core SJ rules created and discussions of house rules left until everyone has a set of SJ Conversion PDFs to flip through and argue over. if ship hulls are expressed as hit points, and with hardness, that will make things easier to work out. I like that. I think I'd be tempted to start off with calculations that a ship's hit points are equal to 10 times the number of Hull Points it got under 2e. I like the idea of using hardness too. It gives a better reason for ships to be made out of alternative materials. An iron Hammership should be harder to damage than a wooden one. i'd preffer if siege engines did damage based off the size of the projectile, plus a hefty strength bonus. Just like a gun, they don't fire "magically powerful/strange" ammunition, they use simple mechanical advantage to hurl a bolt or stone with the force of a giant or more. I think I'd be tempted to carry start with similar calculations to before and either use the damage given for crew strikes or (if that wasn't given for a particular weapon) multiply Hull Point damage by 10. -Was reading a book with photographs of a soild stone block wall, with holes in it punched by ballistas balls or bolts (I mean, SOLID stone blocks 2'x4' with holes smashed into them) -Thus I believe a Light Ballista should do 1d8+8 damage, Medium 1d10+16, and heavy 1d12+24, or the like, with corresponding bonuses to hit, but with penalties to hit based on size (large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12). -Reconstructions of the big rock hurling ballistae are truly massive things! -Again, damage equated with strength isn't cannon, see d20 Modern and guns, but it bugs me, because it's ignoring the facts and even D&Ds system. A balista bolt is just a short but stout spear, hurled very VERY hard. It is amazing what you can see and here if you look around. I've been told that under the right circumstances a wet blanket thrown over a washing line can soak up the velocity of machine gun bullets. I've also heard that at short range an arrow fired from a longbow has more impact than a bullet fired from a gun. However, "how weapons should work under 3e" is more of a house rule discussion. Unless you are going to throw 3e out of the window you need a ship weapon system that matches the personal weapon system in some way. I'd suggest converting over the ships and then checking to see that the weapons that couldn't do hull damage under 2e are too "weak" to do damage under 3e. (By the way in 2e Spelljammer rocks are thrown by catapults and ballistae are giant catapults that throw things like spears.) my personal opinion on how to handle hit points/hull points: 1 spatial ton = 1 inch worth of hit points, based on material. hardness based on material also. An "inch worth of hit points"? So would you have locational damage for ships or would you total it up? Personally the only ton I trust is a "ton of air". Every other type of ton is based on fan assumptions of what the SJ designers meant. Real life has about 5 types of tons. The ton of air is the only type of ton that is defined. If I had to pick a ton for Spelljammer, I'd probably go with a ton of displacement of air. i would also grant natural armor bonus to harder ships. That is an interesting idea. Maybe it should also be the way that hull plating is dealt with. A ship works a bit like a second body for the helmsman, so it might also be appropriate for a helmsman to be able to grant the ship his/her dex bonus. You could even argue that a helmsman should be able to add his/her spellcasting levels to his/her dex bonus to represent the way that they get better at spelljamming at higher levels. Touch attacks (probably ranged touch spells) should be able to bypass a ship's "armor" and attacks in a suprise round should be able to bypass a ship's "dex bonus". naturally, all this means that the less sturdy ships need some fairly hefty mobility bonuses (maybe even give a bonus to speed in addition to MC), because stronger materials are going to do a heck of a lot to improve the toughness of the ships. Do standard ships need mobility bonuses? Wouldn't it be better for ships with additional armour to suffer some sort of armor check penalty instead? How about looking at the standard system for armor and making each type of hull material have a max dex bonus associated with it. If you did allow helmsman to boost their ship's AC with some sort of dexterity/spellcasting level bonus then thin ships would be ones that could dodge out of the way more easily than thick ships. ship's sizes should probably also be based on spatial tons... for example, 1-2 is huge, with a doubling in tonnage equating to an increase in size by 1 or something like that. (Ignoring for a second my distrust of a "spacial ton") when do ship sizes actually matter in game terms? Probably only in the calculation of Attack or AC modifiers. I'm happy to go with the sizes in Leroy Van Camp's PDF here.
Jaid 05-07-07, 09:50 PM	when i use the term "tons" in relation to spelljammer ship sizes, i am always referring to the 100 cubic yards version mentioned most often in the spelljammer books i have :P so, if you prefer, replace anywhere i said "tons" with "100 cubic yards of volume" :P i would not deal with hit points by location... the ship overall would have that many hit points. a 10 ton ship made of wood would be hardness 5, 100 hitpoints. a 15 ton steel ship would be hardness 10, 450 hit points. a 1 ton paper ship would be hardness 0, 2 hit points. and a 100 ton ship made of adamantine would be hardness 20, 4,000 hit points (and so ludicrously expensive it's not even funny). as far as giving bonus to maneuver for less sturdy ships vs penalty to maneuver for more sturdy ships... i can't really see any significant difference. just pick a starting point appropriate to whichever method you use, and it's mechanically the same.
nonuniquename 05-17-07, 11:12 PM	I haven't thought about D&D and Spelljammer in a long time. But I was out here looking around and I may something for you. I created this system a while ago and trot it every now and then. here you go : http://www.buddymurphy.com/OLD/Realspace%203e.rtf
Silverblade The Enchanter 05-18-07, 06:48 PM	oh, a sa PS, not making SJ art currently, as getting to PLAY D&D again ;) don't worry will do more art work and calculate tonanges from models ;)