Alternative ways to power Helms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative ways to power Helms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
goldomark
09-23-07, 05:15 PM When a spellcaster sits on a spelljamming Helm to power it, all of prepared spells are taken away. Same goes for psion and PSP.

I was wondering if anybody scaled this drain. Instead of losing all the spells in a one shot deal, have them absorb by the Helm gradualy, along the voyage. This way more powerful casters could power a Helm longer and a character powering a Helm wouldn't be unarmed when a battle happens.

Shure, the caster can't power a ship and cast on a opponent's ship, but if his ship gets boarded, he is in alot of trouble.

I was thinking one spell level per hour, but it seems to easy. Any math wiz with a complecated, but viable, alternative system?
Silverblade The Enchanter
09-23-07, 09:10 PM 1 spell level per CASTER level/hour? :)
goldomark
09-24-07, 12:04 AM So your saying that a 12th level caster would need 12 spell levels per hour to power a Helm and a 3rd level caster would spend 3 spell levels per hour?

My only question is why would somebody more powerfull would need to spend more energy then a weaker one, to move a ship at the same speed? The ship moves at the same speed wether it is powered by 3 levels of spells or 12 levels of spells. It is very counter intuitive.

But thanks Silverblade :) . God back in the day, one of my character was a multi-class fighter/wizard elf named Khanos Silverblade. Cool name I guess :cool: .
Nerik
09-24-07, 07:22 AM I've been considering a similar idea myself, but haven't worked all the detauils out yet - something like:

Spend a spell of level X to give the ship a Spelljamming Rating (SR) of X (Major Helm) or 2/3 X (Minor Helm) for (say) 1 hour per level per spell. (The helmsman gets to choose which spell they 'spend').
If multiple spells are spent SR is based on the highest level of spell spent. (So if you spend a low level spell for Cruising, then get into a battle, you can 'top up' the helm to get a higher SR.

Quick Analysis: (using 2nd edition values)

Caster Level Max. Duration
1 1 hour (2 for specialists)
2 4 hours (6 for specialists)
3 9 hours (15 for specialists)
4 16 hours (24 for specialists)
5 25 hours (40 for specialists)

Duration needs tweaking I think!

Charles
goldomark
09-24-07, 12:47 PM So Nerik, if I understand, with a Major Helm, if I spend a 3rd level spell, the ship would get a SR of 3 for 3 hours. For a Minor Helm it would be a SR of 2 for 3 hours with that same 3rd level spell.

Hummm, I like the idea, alot :) .

Now the job is doing the same thing with:

Furnaces (150 xp = one spell level?)

Psionic Helms (does 10 PSP = 1 spell level? Maybe more 15 or 20)

That life draining Helm (what it's name :confused: ) (one level/HD = 2 spell levels? Maybe 3? Necromancy is so powerful :devil: and it would compensate the fact that not alot of the slaves/prisonners on those ships have alot of HD).

This needs more tweeking, help is more then welcome :) . Have I forgetten any Helm?
Jaid
09-24-07, 01:33 PM That life draining Helm (what it's name :confused: ) (one level/HD = 2 spell levels? Maybe 3? Necromancy is so powerful :devil: and it would compensate the fact that not alot of the slaves/prisonners on those ships have alot of HD).

a direct translation would be 1 SR/3 levels, iirc. it did power the ship for a full day though.

the advantage to lifejammers, however, was not so much in their speed... it was that you didn't need to use a spellcaster (also, it was cheap, and it could power a 100 ton ship... that was nice too). it took a fairly high HD monster to get a decent SR out of a lifejamming helm, ultimately. in any case, the lifejammer helm has plenty of power imo, simply based on the fact it doesn't use spell levels at all.

the idea of the original post seems to be that the way helms works makes it not very fun to be a spellcaster who's had to man a helm in the last 24 hours, not that we need to totally revamp everything.... which i can agree with (unless you hand out wands, scrolls, and staffs like they're halloween candy, that is). this is somewhat mitigated in 3rd edition, (you no longer have to be level 10 and go on a quest in order to make something) but it is equally problematic because now you're basically relying on burning your XP to be useful 100% of the time (and especially since you probably need at least 2, maybe 3 spellcasters who are going to be totally useless in terms of spellcasting).

in the interest of fun, i agree that the standard helms should work differently, but the other helm types work just fine as far as allowing helmsman PCs to be useful (and therefore allowing them to have fun). the rest of them, it seems to me that it's only adding work to change anything. work should be avoided unless it is going to provide some benefit, imo, and changing *all* of the helms doesn't really provide much benefit from the standpoint of fun if you ask me.
goldomark
09-24-07, 02:41 PM Guess your right Jaid :doh: . I just got over enthousiastic :D with the homebrew rules for the Major and Minor Helms, presented by Nerik.

Just the psionic Helm (don't have my books with me), you shure it doesn't drain all of the PSP out of the psion?

And if it does drain them all, then how much PSP = 1 spell level. Back in 2ed, a psion gain 20 PSP at level one and 10 each other level. High Wisdom gave you bonus PSP at each level, but not that much.

Hummm, I guess 5 PSP would add up to one spell level. Not shure.
Jaid
09-24-07, 05:49 PM there is no psionic helm. or at least, not as such. the closest thing is either the pool helm, or the series helm (the two kinds used by illithid, the major psionic spelljamming force).

someone made up a psionic power that allows you to power a standard helm psionically, iirc, and that can be found on BtM somewhere =P

if we're talking 2e (and it appears we are), there is a power that lets you pretend to be someone else. i might consider allowing said power to fool certain helm types (the ones that require you to be a certain race, such as the thri-kreen crystal throne, the insectare's helm, and i think a few others) as well as possibly allowing psionic characters to generate some chi (assuming the chi helm was de-realmified into the region of not being totally and horribly overpowered, that is), but both of those would be house rules really.

alternately, psionic types could also use one of several other types of helms that don't require a spellcaster (other than the pool and series helm, there's dominated orbi, pump helms, lifejammers/death helms, furnace helms etc). in fact, psionicists could also use the wormhole power to achieve more-or-less instant travel anywhere within the same sphere, and just use these other helm types for travelling through the phlogiston only (obviously not an option with the furnace helm though =P )
goldomark
09-25-07, 03:07 AM No psionic Helm? I was shure I saw one in the Encyclopedia Magica under Helm. Argggg, why do my friends has so many of my books!
Nerik
09-25-07, 07:03 AM So Nerik, if I understand, with a Major Helm, if I spend a 3rd level spell, the ship would get a SR of 3 for 3 hours. For a Minor Helm it would be a SR of 2 for 3 hours with that same 3rd level spell.

Hummm, I like the idea, alot :) .

Actually, my idea was that speed (SR) would be dependent on spell level (and helm type) while duration would be based on caster level. So if your mage was 5th level, a 3rd level spell would give you SR 3 for 5 hours on a major helm, or SR 2 for 5 hours on a minor helm. I hope that clears it up a bit.

On the subject of other helms - I hadn't considered any change (but basing the SR of a furnace helm on the power of its 'fuel' is an interesting idea. I've always considered that the series helms/pool helms used by illithids were psionically powered, but kept the stats as written for simplicity.

Charles
goldomark
09-25-07, 12:39 PM Thanks for the clarification Nerik :) and thank you for the incouragement for the revision of the different Helms.

I must say, I am suprise that nobody ever thought of these changes. I wonder why?

If anybody is familliar why the Psionic handbook of 2ed, any suggestions on how many PSP equal one level of spell. I think 5 PSP equal one spell level. This would make Nerik's system work on a newly design Psionic Helm in my game.
Jaid
09-25-07, 09:01 PM there may very well be a psionic helm in the encyclopedia magica actually... i don't have access to it right now, but i do remember lots of items that i haven't seen in spelljammer but which were most definitely spelljammer-related (for example, magical pellets to fuel a furnace helm; iirc, the Jammers PBEM campaign had a find of those. but you won't find them in any of the published spelljammer books that i am aware of). iirc, there was some kind of "unpublished" book, which was planned, but never made it anywhere. (iirc, there was a helm that used potions, with various types of potions giving better results, for example... not in any published spelljammer book, i'll tell you that much!)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goldomark 09-23-07, 05:15 PM	When a spellcaster sits on a spelljamming Helm to power it, all of prepared spells are taken away. Same goes for psion and PSP. I was wondering if anybody scaled this drain. Instead of losing all the spells in a one shot deal, have them absorb by the Helm gradualy, along the voyage. This way more powerful casters could power a Helm longer and a character powering a Helm wouldn't be unarmed when a battle happens. Shure, the caster can't power a ship and cast on a opponent's ship, but if his ship gets boarded, he is in alot of trouble. I was thinking one spell level per hour, but it seems to easy. Any math wiz with a complecated, but viable, alternative system?
Silverblade The Enchanter 09-23-07, 09:10 PM	1 spell level per CASTER level/hour? :)
goldomark 09-24-07, 12:04 AM	So your saying that a 12th level caster would need 12 spell levels per hour to power a Helm and a 3rd level caster would spend 3 spell levels per hour? My only question is why would somebody more powerfull would need to spend more energy then a weaker one, to move a ship at the same speed? The ship moves at the same speed wether it is powered by 3 levels of spells or 12 levels of spells. It is very counter intuitive. But thanks Silverblade :) . God back in the day, one of my character was a multi-class fighter/wizard elf named Khanos Silverblade. Cool name I guess :cool: .
Nerik 09-24-07, 07:22 AM	I've been considering a similar idea myself, but haven't worked all the detauils out yet - something like: Spend a spell of level X to give the ship a Spelljamming Rating (SR) of X (Major Helm) or 2/3 X (Minor Helm) for (say) 1 hour per level per spell. (The helmsman gets to choose which spell they 'spend'). If multiple spells are spent SR is based on the highest level of spell spent. (So if you spend a low level spell for Cruising, then get into a battle, you can 'top up' the helm to get a higher SR. Quick Analysis: (using 2nd edition values) Caster Level Max. Duration 1 1 hour (2 for specialists) 2 4 hours (6 for specialists) 3 9 hours (15 for specialists) 4 16 hours (24 for specialists) 5 25 hours (40 for specialists) Duration needs tweaking I think! Charles
goldomark 09-24-07, 12:47 PM	So Nerik, if I understand, with a Major Helm, if I spend a 3rd level spell, the ship would get a SR of 3 for 3 hours. For a Minor Helm it would be a SR of 2 for 3 hours with that same 3rd level spell. Hummm, I like the idea, alot :) . Now the job is doing the same thing with: Furnaces (150 xp = one spell level?) Psionic Helms (does 10 PSP = 1 spell level? Maybe more 15 or 20) That life draining Helm (what it's name :confused: ) (one level/HD = 2 spell levels? Maybe 3? Necromancy is so powerful :devil: and it would compensate the fact that not alot of the slaves/prisonners on those ships have alot of HD). This needs more tweeking, help is more then welcome :) . Have I forgetten any Helm?
Jaid 09-24-07, 01:33 PM	That life draining Helm (what it's name :confused: ) (one level/HD = 2 spell levels? Maybe 3? Necromancy is so powerful :devil: and it would compensate the fact that not alot of the slaves/prisonners on those ships have alot of HD). a direct translation would be 1 SR/3 levels, iirc. it did power the ship for a full day though. the advantage to lifejammers, however, was not so much in their speed... it was that you didn't need to use a spellcaster (also, it was cheap, and it could power a 100 ton ship... that was nice too). it took a fairly high HD monster to get a decent SR out of a lifejamming helm, ultimately. in any case, the lifejammer helm has plenty of power imo, simply based on the fact it doesn't use spell levels at all. the idea of the original post seems to be that the way helms works makes it not very fun to be a spellcaster who's had to man a helm in the last 24 hours, not that we need to totally revamp everything.... which i can agree with (unless you hand out wands, scrolls, and staffs like they're halloween candy, that is). this is somewhat mitigated in 3rd edition, (you no longer have to be level 10 and go on a quest in order to make something) but it is equally problematic because now you're basically relying on burning your XP to be useful 100% of the time (and especially since you probably need at least 2, maybe 3 spellcasters who are going to be totally useless in terms of spellcasting). in the interest of fun, i agree that the standard helms should work differently, but the other helm types work just fine as far as allowing helmsman PCs to be useful (and therefore allowing them to have fun). the rest of them, it seems to me that it's only adding work to change anything. work should be avoided unless it is going to provide some benefit, imo, and changing all of the helms doesn't really provide much benefit from the standpoint of fun if you ask me.
goldomark 09-24-07, 02:41 PM	Guess your right Jaid :doh: . I just got over enthousiastic :D with the homebrew rules for the Major and Minor Helms, presented by Nerik. Just the psionic Helm (don't have my books with me), you shure it doesn't drain all of the PSP out of the psion? And if it does drain them all, then how much PSP = 1 spell level. Back in 2ed, a psion gain 20 PSP at level one and 10 each other level. High Wisdom gave you bonus PSP at each level, but not that much. Hummm, I guess 5 PSP would add up to one spell level. Not shure.
Jaid 09-24-07, 05:49 PM	there is no psionic helm. or at least, not as such. the closest thing is either the pool helm, or the series helm (the two kinds used by illithid, the major psionic spelljamming force). someone made up a psionic power that allows you to power a standard helm psionically, iirc, and that can be found on BtM somewhere =P if we're talking 2e (and it appears we are), there is a power that lets you pretend to be someone else. i might consider allowing said power to fool certain helm types (the ones that require you to be a certain race, such as the thri-kreen crystal throne, the insectare's helm, and i think a few others) as well as possibly allowing psionic characters to generate some chi (assuming the chi helm was de-realmified into the region of not being totally and horribly overpowered, that is), but both of those would be house rules really. alternately, psionic types could also use one of several other types of helms that don't require a spellcaster (other than the pool and series helm, there's dominated orbi, pump helms, lifejammers/death helms, furnace helms etc). in fact, psionicists could also use the wormhole power to achieve more-or-less instant travel anywhere within the same sphere, and just use these other helm types for travelling through the phlogiston only (obviously not an option with the furnace helm though =P )
goldomark 09-25-07, 03:07 AM	No psionic Helm? I was shure I saw one in the Encyclopedia Magica under Helm. Argggg, why do my friends has so many of my books!
Nerik 09-25-07, 07:03 AM	So Nerik, if I understand, with a Major Helm, if I spend a 3rd level spell, the ship would get a SR of 3 for 3 hours. For a Minor Helm it would be a SR of 2 for 3 hours with that same 3rd level spell. Hummm, I like the idea, alot :) . Actually, my idea was that speed (SR) would be dependent on spell level (and helm type) while duration would be based on caster level. So if your mage was 5th level, a 3rd level spell would give you SR 3 for 5 hours on a major helm, or SR 2 for 5 hours on a minor helm. I hope that clears it up a bit. On the subject of other helms - I hadn't considered any change (but basing the SR of a furnace helm on the power of its 'fuel' is an interesting idea. I've always considered that the series helms/pool helms used by illithids were psionically powered, but kept the stats as written for simplicity. Charles
goldomark 09-25-07, 12:39 PM	Thanks for the clarification Nerik :) and thank you for the incouragement for the revision of the different Helms. I must say, I am suprise that nobody ever thought of these changes. I wonder why? If anybody is familliar why the Psionic handbook of 2ed, any suggestions on how many PSP equal one level of spell. I think 5 PSP equal one spell level. This would make Nerik's system work on a newly design Psionic Helm in my game.
Jaid 09-25-07, 09:01 PM	there may very well be a psionic helm in the encyclopedia magica actually... i don't have access to it right now, but i do remember lots of items that i haven't seen in spelljammer but which were most definitely spelljammer-related (for example, magical pellets to fuel a furnace helm; iirc, the Jammers PBEM campaign had a find of those. but you won't find them in any of the published spelljammer books that i am aware of). iirc, there was some kind of "unpublished" book, which was planned, but never made it anywhere. (iirc, there was a helm that used potions, with various types of potions giving better results, for example... not in any published spelljammer book, i'll tell you that much!)