Advice: My villain is smarter than me! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice: My villain is smarter than me! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Basilisk
02-26-07, 12:04 PM I need some advice on which direction to move my campaign. Right now, there are only 2 PCs. They have lots of allies, and might be aquiring more. My question is this: My villain (a 20th level, ancient lich of great intelligence and power) Is trying to provoke the PC's into attacking him before they get too strong. He already kicked them out of thier headquarters (too complicated to explain that) and kidnapped the pregnant wife of one of the PCs. They snuck into his tower and rescued her. I had hoped they would see it as 'The last straw!' but they still have decided to wait until they are even more prepared to destroy him. How should the lich provoke them to attack? (He is too afraid to attack them when they are home, he is too smart for that)
Azreil Nightshade
02-26-07, 12:10 PM maybe on't attack them at ome?? maybe attack there home. Start taking things away through the lich. Know what i mean? They have a dog? kill it. Cat? Eat it and kill it. Favored magc item. DOnt eat it. But destroy it none the less. Make them get the idea. Either that or just have the lich leveling up each time they do. Oh! Like create a spirit link to one of them or cast a curse so that they die unless they kill him
rironin
02-26-07, 12:33 PM Hmm, well there are other reasons that might put a time crunch on the PCs, forcing them to act even if they thought that the lich was too dangerous. Have the lich put some doomsday device into action - some sort of very dangerous spell or process that will threaten the whole city the PCs live in or an entire country. The PCs will somehow learn that the process has begun (prophecies, dark storms on the horizon, whatever) and that if they don't stop the lich from doing whatever he's doing soon, the whole town will be destroyed or something like that. That's at least one classic way to get unwilling heroes to rise to the occasion :)
77IM
02-26-07, 03:24 PM - Poison them or someone they love, and only the Lich has the cure.

- Curse them or someone they love, and it's the kind where you basically have to kill the curser to remove it.

- Reverse Psychology: They stumble upon the Lich (or his simulacrum or something) and he flees in terror and moves his headquarters, leading the PCs to think that he is vulnerable.

- Tempting Lure: A "seer" to tell the PCs that the Lich will be weakend during the night of the lunar eclipse or something (it's a lie though; the seer is working for the enemy).

-- 77IM
HellflameArcanite
02-26-07, 04:40 PM Make the lich insanely dramatic, sterotypical villain that's evil for evil's sake. Kidnap somebody again, then tell them that he has a certain spell that, if not deactivated in 7 days, will plane shift the kidnappee's prison into the harem of a powerful demon, where they will be eaten alive. Or some other time-limit, undesireable consequence.
Next step: the lich tells them that the only way to stop the spell is to cast Greater Dispel Magic on a rune tied to the spell. However, he says, the rune has been imprinted upon the inner lining of his stomach by a tiny undead. His skin is protected and has actually been made into magic armor, so you can't just cast GDM through the skin. You will actually have to cut him open, take out the bit of stomach that has the rune, and cast GDM on that.
This will create an urgent, epic, and dramatic adventure that will make for a memorable session. However, don't kidnap the same person as last time, or don't go with kidnapping at all - you don't want the PCs to feel that either a. You are out to get them through what they love or b. You are just trying to get them to attack the lich. I know that you are trying to do b., but you have to make an in-game reason for that and make that seem evident. Perhaps hold the king's life hostage, or set a delayed summoning spell that will open a rift in the planes to allow thousands of Devils to invade the Material Plane.
The_Basilisk
02-26-07, 07:30 PM Thanks a lot for the advice guys! I think I really do need to put some sort of time-dependant doomsday type thing in effect. In fact I believe there is a scary spell in the BoVD that does something like 10d10 damage to everything within hundreds of miles, at the cost of near death for the caster. (Which is a non-issue for a lich) so maybe the PCs can discover that he is making the preparations to cast it. Also, they haven't quite figured out that he is collecting souls to pay a big debt to an evil god in exchange for his lichdom :D
GakkiSai
02-27-07, 01:08 AM Have the local government align itself with the lich and declare them outlaws. If you need an excuse you can say he promised them autonomy in his coming wave of destruction and conquering.
AhzRiael
02-27-07, 12:26 PM I'm a big fan of the "Super Badguy". Why should they try and take him on? Instead allow them to fight him in nonlethal combat again and again, with him escaping each time with a line reminiscent of "Ill get you next time Gadget!".
Nemesis are always more fun than just a normal encounter. When I DM I always have a character that I play, a Dragon or some other humanoid or shapeshifter, that follows the party around and sets up long and drawn out plots for their demise. Eventually they overcome them and the master plot is revealed, along with him pulling the strings, and the party's hatred for him deepens. Each session they have a reason to hate him, and each session they want to find him.
Let them fight and win, but every time, have him escape. By the time the great epic battle you've engineered comes, they'll fight to the death, and it'll be great!
rironin
02-27-07, 12:51 PM Ahzriael's plan is a good one - having the villain escape multiple times definitely allows the PCs to hate him all the more each time around. One thing you need to be careful about is how the villain escapes. If the PCs get the feeling that you're going to force the villain to magically escape every single time until the end, they'll feel rail-roaded, and they'll know that no matter how clever or lucky they are, the villain is still going to get away because this isn't the final climactic battle in the castle of doom (or wherever).

Try to make sure that the villain is still playing by the rules - if he's got superior equipment and spells (and he should, since he's probably not "levelling up" like the PCs and is just as strong in every fight as he's going to be at the end of the campaign) then he should have the resources to escape even if you do roll badly, but you never know what PCs will come up with to thwart him. Try to make it so that even if the PCs have no chance of winning the battle, they can affect the outcome in some way by trying their best. That way they won't feel like it's futile. Maybe if they destroy his minions fast enough in one of the early encounters, the villain is forced to flee the scene earlier and doesn't finish some dastardly activity he was engaged in. If they don't destroy the minions fast enough, the big bad villain zaps a few more puppies in town or something equally evil. Either way the villain escapes, but at least the PCs will feel like they had a meaningful effect on the outcome of the battle.

Also, since the villain is probably not levelling up along with the PCs (although he could be if you want) he ought to be very very strong compared to the PCs in those first meetings. Work out some reasons why such a powerful villain doesn't just kill the PCs outright right then and there. There are a million reasons why he might not (prophecies, he's busy doing something else, the ever-popular overconfident villain who is sure his minions can take care of the job, or perhaps the villain knows via magical divination that these PCs might one day defeat him, and doesn't want to face them until he's even more powerful, to ensure victory). Having the villain reveal himself early on is cool, but if that villain could fry all the PCs with a single spell, he ought to have a good reason why he doesn't. :)
AhzRiael
02-27-07, 12:57 PM Yeah let them kill him if they get the chance. Who says he cant come back? You cant help but love movies where the villian comes back after certain death ala James Bond.
That might not work with a Lich, but hey its your world! Ive found the psychotic cults can often solve that problem.
planetouched
02-27-07, 02:56 PM I got one that trumps all. You say he kidnapped a pregnant wife? Kill the wife and raise the son in the time it takes them to grow stronger. Or threaten to do so. Use advanced litch magics to speed up the gestation period, or turn the baby undead.
Azreil Nightshade
02-27-07, 10:46 PM undead baby skeletons? Thats creepy is that mature board stuff?
The_Basilisk
02-28-07, 12:29 PM Sweet. Thanks for advice all. I think I will use a little bit of everything that was said here. You guys have some great ideas. Looking around the boards however (Im kinda new to the boards, despite DMing for 'bout 10 years) I noticed this question was better suited to "What's a DM to Do?" So this will be my last post in this thread. Thanks!
Thought
02-28-07, 12:55 PM Well it sounds like this is a bit late, but if I might offer anywho...

If the Lich is so smart, he wouldn't want to get the PCs to come out to fight him. That is bad business, letting your enemies prepar to fight against you. Instead, have him engineer for them to travel forth to stop an army of Elementals or a horde of demons, etc. When they get there with the proper equipment for those beasts, they find a lich with a legion of undead instead. Heck, better yet, have the Lich "buy off" the people who the PCs will most likely want to recruit for helping them take care of the other menace.
malignor
02-28-07, 10:23 PM Your Lich should get some spies to act as the friends of the PCs, and help against the Lich, only to betray the party at the last minute.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Basilisk 02-26-07, 12:04 PM	I need some advice on which direction to move my campaign. Right now, there are only 2 PCs. They have lots of allies, and might be aquiring more. My question is this: My villain (a 20th level, ancient lich of great intelligence and power) Is trying to provoke the PC's into attacking him before they get too strong. He already kicked them out of thier headquarters (too complicated to explain that) and kidnapped the pregnant wife of one of the PCs. They snuck into his tower and rescued her. I had hoped they would see it as 'The last straw!' but they still have decided to wait until they are even more prepared to destroy him. How should the lich provoke them to attack? (He is too afraid to attack them when they are home, he is too smart for that)
Azreil Nightshade 02-26-07, 12:10 PM	maybe on't attack them at ome?? maybe attack there home. Start taking things away through the lich. Know what i mean? They have a dog? kill it. Cat? Eat it and kill it. Favored magc item. DOnt eat it. But destroy it none the less. Make them get the idea. Either that or just have the lich leveling up each time they do. Oh! Like create a spirit link to one of them or cast a curse so that they die unless they kill him
rironin 02-26-07, 12:33 PM	Hmm, well there are other reasons that might put a time crunch on the PCs, forcing them to act even if they thought that the lich was too dangerous. Have the lich put some doomsday device into action - some sort of very dangerous spell or process that will threaten the whole city the PCs live in or an entire country. The PCs will somehow learn that the process has begun (prophecies, dark storms on the horizon, whatever) and that if they don't stop the lich from doing whatever he's doing soon, the whole town will be destroyed or something like that. That's at least one classic way to get unwilling heroes to rise to the occasion :)
77IM 02-26-07, 03:24 PM	- Poison them or someone they love, and only the Lich has the cure. - Curse them or someone they love, and it's the kind where you basically have to kill the curser to remove it. - Reverse Psychology: They stumble upon the Lich (or his simulacrum or something) and he flees in terror and moves his headquarters, leading the PCs to think that he is vulnerable. - Tempting Lure: A "seer" to tell the PCs that the Lich will be weakend during the night of the lunar eclipse or something (it's a lie though; the seer is working for the enemy). -- 77IM
HellflameArcanite 02-26-07, 04:40 PM	Make the lich insanely dramatic, sterotypical villain that's evil for evil's sake. Kidnap somebody again, then tell them that he has a certain spell that, if not deactivated in 7 days, will plane shift the kidnappee's prison into the harem of a powerful demon, where they will be eaten alive. Or some other time-limit, undesireable consequence. Next step: the lich tells them that the only way to stop the spell is to cast Greater Dispel Magic on a rune tied to the spell. However, he says, the rune has been imprinted upon the inner lining of his stomach by a tiny undead. His skin is protected and has actually been made into magic armor, so you can't just cast GDM through the skin. You will actually have to cut him open, take out the bit of stomach that has the rune, and cast GDM on that. This will create an urgent, epic, and dramatic adventure that will make for a memorable session. However, don't kidnap the same person as last time, or don't go with kidnapping at all - you don't want the PCs to feel that either a. You are out to get them through what they love or b. You are just trying to get them to attack the lich. I know that you are trying to do b., but you have to make an in-game reason for that and make that seem evident. Perhaps hold the king's life hostage, or set a delayed summoning spell that will open a rift in the planes to allow thousands of Devils to invade the Material Plane.
The_Basilisk 02-26-07, 07:30 PM	Thanks a lot for the advice guys! I think I really do need to put some sort of time-dependant doomsday type thing in effect. In fact I believe there is a scary spell in the BoVD that does something like 10d10 damage to everything within hundreds of miles, at the cost of near death for the caster. (Which is a non-issue for a lich) so maybe the PCs can discover that he is making the preparations to cast it. Also, they haven't quite figured out that he is collecting souls to pay a big debt to an evil god in exchange for his lichdom :D
GakkiSai 02-27-07, 01:08 AM	Have the local government align itself with the lich and declare them outlaws. If you need an excuse you can say he promised them autonomy in his coming wave of destruction and conquering.
AhzRiael 02-27-07, 12:26 PM	I'm a big fan of the "Super Badguy". Why should they try and take him on? Instead allow them to fight him in nonlethal combat again and again, with him escaping each time with a line reminiscent of "Ill get you next time Gadget!". Nemesis are always more fun than just a normal encounter. When I DM I always have a character that I play, a Dragon or some other humanoid or shapeshifter, that follows the party around and sets up long and drawn out plots for their demise. Eventually they overcome them and the master plot is revealed, along with him pulling the strings, and the party's hatred for him deepens. Each session they have a reason to hate him, and each session they want to find him. Let them fight and win, but every time, have him escape. By the time the great epic battle you've engineered comes, they'll fight to the death, and it'll be great!
rironin 02-27-07, 12:51 PM	Ahzriael's plan is a good one - having the villain escape multiple times definitely allows the PCs to hate him all the more each time around. One thing you need to be careful about is how the villain escapes. If the PCs get the feeling that you're going to force the villain to magically escape every single time until the end, they'll feel rail-roaded, and they'll know that no matter how clever or lucky they are, the villain is still going to get away because this isn't the final climactic battle in the castle of doom (or wherever). Try to make sure that the villain is still playing by the rules - if he's got superior equipment and spells (and he should, since he's probably not "levelling up" like the PCs and is just as strong in every fight as he's going to be at the end of the campaign) then he should have the resources to escape even if you do roll badly, but you never know what PCs will come up with to thwart him. Try to make it so that even if the PCs have no chance of winning the battle, they can affect the outcome in some way by trying their best. That way they won't feel like it's futile. Maybe if they destroy his minions fast enough in one of the early encounters, the villain is forced to flee the scene earlier and doesn't finish some dastardly activity he was engaged in. If they don't destroy the minions fast enough, the big bad villain zaps a few more puppies in town or something equally evil. Either way the villain escapes, but at least the PCs will feel like they had a meaningful effect on the outcome of the battle. Also, since the villain is probably not levelling up along with the PCs (although he could be if you want) he ought to be very very strong compared to the PCs in those first meetings. Work out some reasons why such a powerful villain doesn't just kill the PCs outright right then and there. There are a million reasons why he might not (prophecies, he's busy doing something else, the ever-popular overconfident villain who is sure his minions can take care of the job, or perhaps the villain knows via magical divination that these PCs might one day defeat him, and doesn't want to face them until he's even more powerful, to ensure victory). Having the villain reveal himself early on is cool, but if that villain could fry all the PCs with a single spell, he ought to have a good reason why he doesn't. :)
AhzRiael 02-27-07, 12:57 PM	Yeah let them kill him if they get the chance. Who says he cant come back? You cant help but love movies where the villian comes back after certain death ala James Bond. That might not work with a Lich, but hey its your world! Ive found the psychotic cults can often solve that problem.
planetouched 02-27-07, 02:56 PM	I got one that trumps all. You say he kidnapped a pregnant wife? Kill the wife and raise the son in the time it takes them to grow stronger. Or threaten to do so. Use advanced litch magics to speed up the gestation period, or turn the baby undead.
Azreil Nightshade 02-27-07, 10:46 PM	undead baby skeletons? Thats creepy is that mature board stuff?
The_Basilisk 02-28-07, 12:29 PM	Sweet. Thanks for advice all. I think I will use a little bit of everything that was said here. You guys have some great ideas. Looking around the boards however (Im kinda new to the boards, despite DMing for 'bout 10 years) I noticed this question was better suited to "What's a DM to Do?" So this will be my last post in this thread. Thanks!
Thought 02-28-07, 12:55 PM	Well it sounds like this is a bit late, but if I might offer anywho... If the Lich is so smart, he wouldn't want to get the PCs to come out to fight him. That is bad business, letting your enemies prepar to fight against you. Instead, have him engineer for them to travel forth to stop an army of Elementals or a horde of demons, etc. When they get there with the proper equipment for those beasts, they find a lich with a legion of undead instead. Heck, better yet, have the Lich "buy off" the people who the PCs will most likely want to recruit for helping them take care of the other menace.
malignor 02-28-07, 10:23 PM	Your Lich should get some spies to act as the friends of the PCs, and help against the Lich, only to betray the party at the last minute.