Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stargate525 02-05-08, 04:22 PM	Alright, I've got a bit of an issue with the internal logic in my campaign setting. Long story short, my Gnomes have airships. No envelopes of gas, so you can't take them down by puncturing thsoe. They're essentially sailing ships (with masts on the sides and bottom) flying around in the sky. My issue becomes; if the gnomes have these airships, why haven't they taken over the world? I need suggestions on land-based defenses for the other races, since they don't have flying machines. The setting is low powered, 1-10th level expected, so no high level spells.
Eldritch_Lord 02-05-08, 07:50 PM	Alright, I've got a bit of an issue with the internal logic in my campaign setting. Long story short, my Gnomes have airships. No envelopes of gas, so you can't take them down by puncturing thsoe. They're essentially sailing ships (with masts on the sides and bottom) flying around in the sky. My issue becomes; if the gnomes have these airships, why haven't they taken over the world? I need suggestions on land-based defenses for the other races, since they don't have flying machines. The setting is low powered, 1-10th level expected, so no high level spells. 1) Do the gnomes want to take over the world? They're usually portrayed as flighty, capricious folk, which doesn't lend itself well to conquering nations. 2) Are the airships magically created? Dispel magic or variations on that would at least suppress the enchantment and send it falling for a few rounds, and the disenchanting rods would work as well. 3) Are the airships technologically created? Blow up steam pipes, cut ropes, etc.--sabotage could be a common possibility, so they don't want to take over for fear of other races disabling their claim to power. Hope that helps; more ideas if I have any.
Delfedd 02-05-08, 08:10 PM	Also, Dragons. If the gnomes started to claim they ruled the skies or whatnot, the proud dragons would get... a little miffed.
stargate525 02-05-08, 08:25 PM	Well the gnomes as a race don't want to take over, but the other races realize the existence of possible pirates, and so defense would be a good thing. That, and defense for the orcs. I'm just curious, does dispel magic have the kind of range needed to hit a ships hundreds of feet in the air? They're held up by a number of magical rods, and those can be tampered with, but I'd rather not their only weakness be internal sabotage. As for dragons, no dice. They're relegated, isolationists on one continent.
steventirey1985 02-05-08, 08:41 PM	How high do the airships fly on average? The range of Dispel Magic is 100 ft + 10 ft/level. Long Range spells (like fireball) have a ranged of 400 ft + 40ft/level. So how high do you mean when you say "hunderds of feet in the air"?
Eldritch_Lord 02-05-08, 08:42 PM	I'm just curious, does dispel magic have the kind of range needed to hit a ships hundreds of feet in the air? They're held up by a number of magical rods, and those can be tampered with, but I'd rather not their only weakness be internal sabotage. Well, at the kind of range they'd be a problem, they can hit; if the airships are hundreds of feet in the air, you don't need to worry about them 'til they get closer to the ground.
stargate525 02-05-08, 08:51 PM	Long range spells would hit, and if they were flying low, the mediums would probably hit too. Problem is, they can simply sit at about 500 feet, and drop rocks on the city, or arrows with detonation enchantments.
Learned_Barbarian 02-05-08, 09:49 PM	Maybe the gnomes are merchants. Perhaps they are like the Shipping Guild in Dune. They dominate the sky, but act as transporters and (at times) couriers. I personally can't see gnomes as conquers, raining ruin down from their flying fortresses. Then again, there could be gnomish pirates who raid cities, towns, ground caravans, and other sky ships.
Learned_Barbarian 02-05-08, 09:50 PM	Maybe the gnomes are merchants. Perhaps they are like the Shipping Guild in Dune. They dominate the sky, but act as transporters and (at times) couriers. I personally can't see gnomes as conquers, raining ruin down from their flying fortresses. Then again, there could be gnomish pirates who raid cities, towns, ground caravans, and other sky ships.
Learned_Barbarian 02-05-08, 10:15 PM	Woopsie, double post.
Heros_Backpack 02-06-08, 06:19 AM	Problem is, they can simply sit at about 500 feet, and drop rocks on the city, or arrows with detonation enchantments. A heavy catapult has a range increment of 200ft and gains +2 to hit with every successive miss at the same target. Make three sighting shots, fill the fourth load with alchemist's fire and you end up with barbequed gnome.
narack 02-06-08, 08:27 AM	Gnome could be pacifist civilization. But some evil creature would certainly like put their hands on one of those machines. That's could make gnome have flying cities. And biggest enemies would be Evil dragons and Gyanthi Pirates which come from the plane of air. Or also there is the mix, Red Dragon Gyhanti mounted, Gyhanti favored mount
Naderion 02-06-08, 10:46 AM	Alright, I've got a bit of an issue with the internal logic in my campaign setting. Long story short, my Gnomes have airships. No envelopes of gas, so you can't take them down by puncturing thsoe. They're essentially sailing ships (with masts on the sides and bottom) flying around in the sky. My issue becomes; if the gnomes have these airships, why haven't they taken over the world? I need suggestions on land-based defenses for the other races, since they don't have flying machines. The setting is low powered, 1-10th level expected, so no high level spells. Unfortunately, there are real world examples: You can let rain down much destruction on the enemies, but you can't get controll of the land by these means. Eventually they will hide out of reach and face them on the ground, and then gnomes will have a hard time. Also if there are air ships, then there are likely a lot of wizards around in all nations and fireballs and lighning bolts should be able to take them down rather quickly.
Orchomenos 02-06-08, 10:53 AM	How expensive a flying ship? Perhaps no one want to risk 2M gp to possibly take over a town or city...
james_gaines 02-06-08, 02:48 PM	Perhaps they can't hold much weight, or go below a certain speed (no hovering). Perhaps the cities would have their own flying armada (thinking griffon riders from WarIII). Nothing fancy or long range, but kept there in order to keep the random dragon-welp or skypirate away.
taradusis 02-06-08, 07:51 PM	Small balloons with a stick of dynamite. Eagles or bats with explosive devices attached,during WWII bats were tried. Illusionary terraign to confuse enemies? Artificial fog bank generators? Send hippies to gnomish homeland to sing "Give peace a chance" untill the gnomes crack under the pressure. :)
Tovec 02-09-08, 12:32 PM	Alright, I've got a bit of an issue with the internal logic in my campaign setting. Long story short, my Gnomes have airships. No envelopes of gas, so you can't take them down by puncturing thsoe. They're essentially sailing ships (with masts on the sides and bottom) flying around in the sky. My issue becomes; if the gnomes have these airships, why haven't they taken over the world? I need suggestions on land-based defenses for the other races, since they don't have flying machines. The setting is low powered, 1-10th level expected, so no high level spells. I agree with many of the earlier comments made. Sorry for repeats but I feel they are worth repeating. Why do the gnomes Want to rule the world? Back in the days when water travel was supreme the pirates didn't rule the world, they ruled the waves. I think the US has the most powerful air force in the world right? No matter if they think it or not they don't rule the world. They can exercise muscle but again that comes back to why the gnomes would want to rule. And of course to echo the How the ships exist.
Space_Dragon 02-09-08, 03:51 PM	I always assumed that large cities and fortresses in DnD would keep a small pack of griffons or hippogriffs as mounts for an aerial dragoon corps of some kind. If these skyships are relying on rocks and arrows to damage the cities under them (ie, no giant omega lasers or anything), some griffon riders should be able to take them out.
dawnbringer 02-09-08, 05:21 PM	Maybe the gnomes are merchants. Perhaps they are like the Shipping Guild in Dune. They dominate the sky, but act as transporters and (at times) couriers. I personally can't see gnomes as conquers, raining ruin down from their flying fortresses. Then again, there could be gnomish pirates who raid cities, towns, ground caravans, and other sky ships. Haha, i love the dune books. That said, make the gnomes like a trade/shipping guild. They haul cargo from one place to another, and act as couriers for a price. Anyone who hurts the gnomes gets cut off and isolated.
aotrscommander 02-09-08, 06:55 PM	Simple answer, as several posters have mentioned. Air superiority doesn't let you conquer anything. In order to take control (and therefore rule), you need ground troops. Bombing the crap out of people only goes so far (even less so when people are less dependant on resources like electrical power). You can burn down their cities - maybe - but you can't control people. Air power is really only any good at striking precision targets (waaay beyond what gnomes in airships are doing aside from magically, and by that point, you hardly need an airship) and suppressing the enemy and preventing them from going anywhere. You can't control anything, because you only get to the point where you say "do this or I'll drop a rock on you" and that only work to an extent. And that only works in the short term, while you're literally flaoting over their heads, and you can't control anything that's not right in your immediate area (and often not even then). Dropping rocks onto fortifications is not likely to be all that effective, either, since even as low as 500' up, your accuracy is pretty dire. Note catauplts and trebuchets don't splifflicate things with one hit, so tossing a few boulders is not going to do much good (even if you assume very heavy magic which would allow you to cart umpteen-twiddly boulders around with you to drop). Supply is a problem too, because unless you've got scads of magic (which again, pretty much make the point you've got airships moot), you can't keep them flying forever ('cos the crew needs to eat, rearm etc). You'd have to nearly outnumber the rest of the world with an economic system to match to be able to keep airship hovering over everywhere. You can burn a few cities down, yes, and kill people, but in order to win the war, you have to force people to surrender. And histroically, air power has done a poor job of that on the strategic scale. Some examples: The bombing campaigns in Europe in WW2. Despite bombing the crap out of cities, the bombing failed to deal much significant effect to either morale or war effort, for various reasons, on both sides. It killed a lot of people, but ultimately, this made the survivors more determined. (In fact, a point not often raised is that during the RAF bombing campaigns was that actually, much of Germany had not been bombed at all, so were hardly likely to crack under the pressure. In fact, the Germans pretty much did exactly what the British did when bombed; stiffen their upper lip and struggle on). The Allied campaigns stemmed in large part from the mistaken belief from the inter-war period where one noted Italian scholar has said that "the bomber will always get through" and projected the next war would involve civilian casualties in the millions in mere days. A lot of governments (notably the British) bought this line completely and went into a mad panic about bombers, pretty much to the exclusion of everything else. It turned out they were about as wrong as they could be. Daftly, at the time of the war, the Germans didn't even have any long-range strategic bombers. They were about the only crowd who didn't buy the treatise. (Apparently, the standing joke amoung the Germans (who had a fairly low opinion of their erstwhile allies) was that perhaps the reason this fellow (who's name escapes me) came up with this idea was because the Italians would collapse in such a fashion under such pressure, unlike a 'hardier' nation.) Vietnam; the air war being a class example of How Not To Fight An Air War (sorry America, but it was), manhandled at the top level as it was. Aside from that, it proved that you can't defeat a man on a bicycle with a B-52. Air power doesn't give you enough to kill everyone. And finally the first Gulf War, where despite heavy aerial bombardment, the real advances only occurred when the ground troops moved in. Some Iraqi soldiers did attempt to surrender to unmanned drones on occasion, yes, and they had their morale shattered. But they were merely units, mostly of fairly poor morale in the first place, and had more or less been totally abandoned. The air campaign did nothing to weaken Saddam's actual control of the country. In order to rule, you need to get in on the ground, occupy areas and co-opt the infrastructure - and that requires ground troops. So then, stargate525, your gnomes airship power might make them a force of considerable concern to other nations, but without a equally awesome army to back it up, they can't achive much. (On the other hand, invade gnome-land at your peril, because air-power is quite good at knobbling actual armies!) They probably can enjoy a significany economic benefit though. If they're the only ones with airships, it's quite likely they are an economic, not military, superpower. They might have a lot of political clout due to potential trade sanctions. If you're making a Fat Pile Of Cash off Johnny Big Foreigner, you kind of want him to keep giving you his money, and it's so much easier if he gives it to you willingly, rather than after a costly war to loot it from his corpse which you can only get once. Hope that offers some helpful perspective. (You can tell I'm a wargamer, can't you.)
Chaosepoch 02-10-08, 01:40 PM	Assuming you don't want to make any power-holder changes to your wolrd, how about this; If the gnomes went out to conquer the world the others would unite against them... Throw in an old story of a group of gnomes who broke off and set about conquest only to find elves and orcs working together to slaughter them all.
Werral 02-12-08, 04:41 PM	Aotrscommander makes great points also: Unfortunately, there are real world examples: You can let rain down much destruction on the enemies, but you can't get controll of the land by these means. Eventually they will hide out of reach and face them on the ground, and then gnomes will have a hard time. Also if there are air ships, then there are likely a lot of wizards around in all nations and fireballs and lighning bolts should be able to take them down rather quickly. Lots of D&D monsters live underground, which makes a lot more sense if the gnomes really are bombing people. You could have a dark campaign where vicious gnomes have bombed the other races into wither submission or forced them underground. The survivors are fighting the traditional underground races for territory all the while planning to get their hands on the airships. With conventional gnomes they probably wouldn't want to conquer as others have said but other races would probably start researching anti-airship measures (and their own airships) just in case. Another interesting idea is the Chinese and gunpowder- the Chinese had gunpowder long before Europe but never really developed a military use for it. AS soon as Europeans got their hands on it they immediately used it for military ends with great success. MAybe the same could happen with airships? The gnomes never apply them to military ends but at some point humans/drow/Sahaughin/hobgoblins or whatever do.
Ivellius 02-12-08, 06:25 PM	This thread is giving me such great ideas. Amazing. To the OP, do you have the airships statted up? I might be interested in seeing them sometime.
stargate525 02-13-08, 12:22 AM	Thanks for your help guys; I'll probably have a couple of roving pirate airships, but all large towns are defended by wand-wielding mages in high towers. To Ivellius, I unfortunately don't. My idea is essentially sailing ships in the sky (masts on 2-4 sides of the ship), that use sets of magic items to stay aloft and allow them to tack. Destroy the sails, therefore, and the ship is grounded, as it has no means of propulsion outside of air currents.
Slimgauge 02-13-08, 12:55 AM	Mayhap these ships of the air require periodic maintenance of the sort that you can't perform out in the field. I'm not sure what the equivalent of dry-dock for an ocean going ship would be, but whatever it is, I'm sure it's expensive :P How fragile are your ships of the air ? Do they need to ground themselves to weather a bad storm ? Or would that just let the storm beat it against the ground ? Would they be forced to try to outrun the storm instead ? What's the operational ceiling ? Can they go over the mountains, or do they need to go around/find a pass ?
stargate525 02-13-08, 02:17 AM	Mayhap these ships of the air require periodic maintenance of the sort that you can't perform out in the field. I'm not sure what the equivalent of dry-dock for an ocean going ship would be, but whatever it is, I'm sure it's expensive :P How fragile are your ships of the air ? Do they need to ground themselves to weather a bad storm ? Or would that just let the storm beat it against the ground ? Would they be forced to try to outrun the storm instead ? What's the operational ceiling ? Can they go over the mountains, or do they need to go around/find a pass ? Oh that is brilliant... The magic devices that keep the thing up are similar to immovable rods, with two exceptions. They allow movement, and they can burn out. I can make the rods much bigger, and a pain to replace. There are several, so that when more than half go down, so does the ship. Oh, nice. And they're naturally fragile, since the lighter they are the fewer lifters they need. Storms would work, as would sufficient blunt force... Thank you.
Orchomenos 02-13-08, 11:45 AM	Thanks for your help guys; I'll probably have a couple of roving pirate airships, but all large towns are defended by wand-wielding mages in high towers. Here's the image that popped in my mind. A low level, apprentice mage holding a wand of fireballs, just in case something like this appears. The point is the wand is actually more expensive that the apprentice mage. So whenever he uses the wand, he has a long report to complete to explain why he spent this precious charge... :P :mage: :ton:
taradusis 02-15-08, 06:34 PM	Giant woodpeckers to drill holes in airships? :D
MorandirNailo 02-16-08, 04:07 AM	Another thing to consider from a game mechanics standpoint is that these ships are powered by magic items, and you've said it's a low-level kind of world. Remember that making magic items takes XP, and unless you're actively adventuring XP is very hard to come by. Craft Rod requires you to be a 9th level caster so only the most powerful mages in your world are capable of crafting these rods. How many of those are gnomes, and of those, how many are willing to spend their time (assuming the same numbers as an Immovable Rod, 8 days per rod) and precious Life Force (300 XP per rod) crafting rods for a few flying ships? Since it takes several rods to lift a ship you're going to have a very small fleet of flying ships, especially since they burn out. And at 7500 GP a pop (Immovable Rod numbers again) the whole endeavor is going to get expensive very quickly. Personally, I'd go with the courier idea, and have the rods be permanent. Since you can't exactly craft them by the boatload anyway, it's that or eventually the fleet comes down when your Rod Crafting Crew runs out of XP and has to find some dungeons to clear out so they can craft more, assuming they're willing to take time away from their all-important tomes and research in the first place. Mor
turalisj 02-17-08, 08:05 PM	Perhaps they can't hold much weight, or go below a certain speed (no hovering). Perhaps the cities would have their own flying armada (thinking griffon riders from WarIII). Nothing fancy or long range, but kept there in order to keep the random dragon-welp or skypirate away. Not to go off topic, but the average dragon 'whelp' has a cr of 3, even with a tiny size. You get into larger dragons, and suddenly you have trouble. And in 4e, dragons get better!
Garandene_Lyrandar 02-18-08, 12:27 AM	How about you use the same excuse I did to explain the fact that firearms can only be used in the major city, manifest zone. The airships only function in a manifest zone to your plane of air.
Shaso_Fish 02-18-08, 05:09 PM	I'm not sure if this tremendously helps, but think of airships as any new military technology in our world: Whoever develops the new technology (say, gunpowder), quickly gains control of the playing field. It can do more, faster, and acts as a force mutliplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplier) when it comes to actual battle. Naturally, everyone wants it. In order to get it, governments that are in opposition to the ones that possess it commit less-than-honorable acts (bribery, alliances with other powers, stealing, commando-style A-Team raids, etc) to get a hold of the technology. Because of innate honor and human (gnomish, elven, whatever) instincts, the process of acquiring the technology is must faster than actually developing it. Given that the technology is now possessed by everyone, the initial developer still maintains a advantage, it is far less so than before, and quickly loses grip as other powers develop their own arsenals and begin to take vengeance. Now that the other powers are on top, natural greed sets in, and like piranhas they turn on each other, leveling the playing field once more. Rinse, wash, repeat.
turalisj 02-18-08, 08:23 PM	That's jsut it though, the difference between humans, gnomes, elves, dwarves, and haflings. Human nations would obtain as many ships as possible and try to build their own as fast as possible, because humans are naturaly greedy. Gnomes would keep a few ships around, and sell most of them to fund more advanced ships. Dwarves would buy a few ships and load them up with adamantine armor and the best cannons they can get. Elves would have 2 or 3 ships, take them apart, regrow them from living wood, and use those. :D