Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-24-06, 09:45 PM	For a very long time, its bothered me that dieties use alignment as the sole method by which thier spells decide who to hurt or not hurt. Further, it bothered me that a Holy weapon from a Good god always hurt undead reguardless of how that god felt about undead and yet, the weapon couldn't hurt non-evil heretics. Thus was born the following system. It relies on looking at each god and deciding who they like, who they dislike and who they hate. With no further ado, I present the Allies, Recusants and Enemies System: Most characters will not have any status whatsoever. Allies A deities allies are those who seek the same ends as the core religion dedicated to the deity or are under special protection of the deity. This naturally includes clerics and other clergy, warriors in the church’s service and wards of the church, but also extends to creatures and people who are part of activities in the deity’s portfolio. For example, most artists are considered allies of deities of art. In some cases, through their own actions, a character that would normally be an ally is instead treated as a recusant or enemy. For example, a warrior in the service of a deity with children in their portfolio who is cruel to children would be a recusant of the deity. Effects that effect a deity’s allies typically aid them. Recusants Recusants are people who by thought or by action go against the will of the god or are a determent to their portfolio. Crusading against actions of the church, seeking to curtail activities in the god’s portfolio, or doing malicious harm to a member of the clergy or faithful all earn recusant status. Being an exclusive member of church of a recusant deity earns recusant status. Gods typically don’t take action against recusants, but many effects that harm their enemies have smaller secondary effects against recusants. Enemies Allies of enemy gods, creatures declared anathema to the church, and singular individuals who have gained the personal ire of the gods are Enemies of the faith. Actual actions against the church and not just doctrine earn enemy status as well. For example, an orator who uses their speeches to speak blasphemies is only a recusant, but one who advocates harm to the church and its people is an enemy. Ironically, even the faithful of some deities can be considered enemies. Effects that effect a deity’s enemies typically harm them. As an example of how the system is implemented, I present the 'Holy of the God' Weapon Quality. Weapon Quality: Holy of the God A Holy of the God weapon is attuned to the will of the deity whose power was used to create it, dealing additional damage against non-beleivers. Against recusants of the god, a Holy of the God weapon grants an additional +1 holy bonus to attack deals an additional 1d6 holy damage. Against enemies of the god, a Holy of the God weapon grants a +2 holy bonus to attack and deals an additional 2d6 holy damage. Against non-allies, a Holy of the God weapon deals an additional 1 holy damage. Strong (no school); CL 3rd; Craft Arms and Armor, blessed of the god; Price +2 bonus.
Kirech 04-24-06, 11:04 PM	I like it. A lot of people want to take alignment out of their campaign. This seems like a good generalized way of doing that for Divine spells and abilities.
TúrintheMormegil 04-27-06, 12:24 PM	Thumbs up. While it isn't strictly necessary to create a replacement system (one could just ban holy weapons if he didn't like them), this is a very elegant way to solve the problem if you want to do so. So I assume "holy of the gods" replaces the alignment-based weapon qualities in your campaign? What is the effect on alignment-based damage reduction? How about the various divine spells that are based on alignment? :tiphat: Túrin
EvilSqueegee 04-27-06, 01:11 PM	There's actually something quite similar to this in the Book of Exaulted Deeds, close to the front, if I recall correctly. It wound up with paladins of opposing gods being able to smite each other. I don't recall the exact basis of it, but this feels really similar to that. And on top of that, this is really good. A great way to finish all those disputes about paladins. It's smooth, efficient, accomplishes what it wanted to and doesn't require nine million extra rules to keep balanced. I love it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-27-06, 01:26 PM	Thumbs up. While it isn't strictly necessary to create a replacement system (one could just ban holy weapons if he didn't like them), this is a very elegant way to solve the problem if you want to do so. So I assume "holy of the gods" replaces the alignment-based weapon qualities in your campaign? Yup, Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic and Anarchic all fold into Holy of the God. Align Weapon become's God Blessed Weapon as a spell. What is the effect on alignment-based damage reduction? My setting (World of Ere) handles alignment based DR in one of two ways; one is that only Fiends and Celestials ratain alignment DR and ths they can only fully harm one another. Thier CR is increased by 1 because of this. For any other creature, they have DR overcome by new special materials I'm working on. How about the various divine spells that are based on alignment? Some rules of thumb: - Until I rewrite the spells, we assume all clerics will have Holy Word, Holy Smite, Magic circle vs. Evil, Protection from Evil, and Detect Good instead of any of the other spells. - When one of these spells refers to 'non-good', it deals full effect to Enemies and half or partial effect to Recusants. If it has no half or partial aeffect, it doesn't effect Recusants. - When an effect of one of these spells refers to Evil, it effects Enemies. - When an effect of one of these spells refers to Neutral, it effects Recusants. - When an effect of one of these spells refers to Good, it effects Allies. - Detection spells can only detect Allies or Enemies, never Recusants.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-27-06, 01:30 PM	There's actually something quite similar to this in the Book of Exaulted Deeds, close to the front, if I recall correctly. The BoED is like Kryptonite to me. *shiver* It wound up with paladins of opposing gods being able to smite each other. I'm working on out and out replacing the Paladin IMC with some sort of Champion of the Cause. They don't really fit the flavor of the world where deities aren't the only major players who will want a man of faith on thier side. And on top of that, this is really good. A great way to finish all those disputes about paladins. It's smooth, efficient, accomplishes what it wanted to and doesn't require nine million extra rules to keep balanced. I love it. Thanks :) I'd like to stress though, that being an Enemy doesn't automatically mean you're allowed to smack the person though. A lot of gods may not like something and thier powers may be anathema to certain creatures, but they don't all endorse extermination as doctrine.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-06, 12:19 AM	Deific Smiting Evocation Devotion 4 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: 20-ft.-radius burst Duration: Instantaneous (1 round); see text Saving Throw: Will partial; see text Spell Resistance: Yes You draw down holy power to smite your enemies. Only enemies and recusants of your faith are harmed by the spell; other creatures are unaffected. The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to each enemy of your faith in the area and causes it to become staggered for 1 round. A successful Will saving throw reduces damage to half and negates the blinded effect. The spell deals only staggers recusants of your faith. Such a creature can negate this effect with a successful Will save. Replaces Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Order’s Wrath, Chaos Hammer -------------------------------------- Divine Protection Abjuration Clr 1, Devotion 1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: No; see text This spell wards a creature from attacks by enemies and recusants of your faith, from mental control, and from summoned creatures summoned by enemies and recusants of your faith. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects. First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by enemies and recusants of your faith. Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the divine protection effect. If the divine protection effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. creatures summoned by an ally of your faith are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. Replaces Protection from [Alignment] -------------------------------------- Deny Heresy Abjuration Clr 5, Devotion 5 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: You and an enchantment or spell cast by an enemy of your faith on a touched creature or object Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged, whichever comes first Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Shimmering, white, holy energy surrounds you. This power has two effects. First, you gain a +4 deflection bonus to AC against attacks by enemies and recusants of your faith. Second, with a touch you can automatically dispel any one enchantment spell cast by an enemy of your faith. Exception: Spells that can’t be dispelled by dispel magic also can’t be dispelled by dispel evil. Saving throws and spell resistance do not apply to this effect. This use discharges and ends the spell. Replaces Dispel [Alignment] -------------------------------------- Magic Circle against Heretics Abjuration Clr 3, Devotion 3 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Effect: 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: No; see text All creatures within the area gain the effects of a divine protection, and no creatures summoned by enemies of your faith can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature’s spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of divine protection), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies’ spell resistance. This spell has an alternative version that you may choose when casting it. A magic circle against heretics can be focused inward rather than outward. When focused inward, the spell binds a called creature(such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal divine protection spell for that creature only. A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap. If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can. If the called creature has spell resistance, it can test the trap once a day. If you fail to overcome its spell resistance, the creature breaks free, destroying the circle. A creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through that means. You can prevent the creature’s extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself. You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20. A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above. This spell is not cumulative with divine protection and vice versa. Replaces Magic Circle vs. [Alignment] -------------------------------------- Sacred Speech Evocation [Sonic] LevelClr 7, Devotion 7 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 40 ft. Effect: Enemies and recusants of your faith in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes Any enemy or recusant of your faith within the area that hears the sacred speech of your faith suffers the following ill effects. HD Effect Equal to caster level Deafened Up to caster level -1 Blinded, deafened Up to caster level -5 Paralyzed, blinded, deafened Up to caster level -10 Killed, paralyzed, blinded, deafened The effects are cumulative and concurrent. No saving throw is allowed against these effects. Deafened The creature is deafened for 1d4 rounds. Blinded The creature is blinded for 2d4 rounds. Paralyzed The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes. Killed Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, extraplanar creatures they you do not consider to be allies within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the sacred speech. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate. Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by sacred speech. Replaces Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, and Word of Chaos -------------------------------------- Detect Devotion Divination Clr 1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 60 ft. Effect: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You can sense the presence of divine devotion or spells cast by devoted beings. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject. 1st Round Presence or absence of strong devotion to a faith. 2nd Round Number of creatures in the area that have strong devotion to their faith. 3rd Round The object of each creature’s devotion. Each round, you can turn to detect devotion in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. Replaces Detect [Alignment] -------------------------------------- Righteous Presence Abjuration Clr 8, Devotion 8 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 20 ft Target(s): One creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on you Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) A brilliant divine radiance surrounds the subjects, protecting them from attacks, granting them resistance to spells cast by enemies or recusants of your faith, and causing such creatures to become blinded when they strike the subjects. This abjuration has four effects. First, each warded creature gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves. Unlike divine protection, this benefit applies against all attacks, not just against attacks by enemies and recusants of your faith. Second, each warded creature gains spell resistance 25 against spells cast by enemies and recusants of your faith. Third, the abjuration blocks possession and mental influence, just as divine protection does. Finally, if an enemy or recusant of your faith succeeds on a melee attack against a warded creature, the offending attacker is blinded (Fortitude save negates, as blindness/deafness, but against divine presence’s save DC). Focus A tiny reliquary containing some sacred relic. The reliquary costs at least 500 gp. Replaces Holy Aura, Unholy Aura, Shield of Law, and Cloak of Chaos -------------------------------------- Sanctify Site Evocation Clr 5, Drd 5 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 24 hours Range: Touch Area: 40-ft. radius emanating from the touched point Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: See text Sanctify site makes a particular site, building, or structure a holy site. This has three major effects. First, the site or structure is guarded by a magic circle against heretics effect. Second, any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be effected by an spell that targets corpses such as speak with dead or animate dead. Finally, you may choose to fix a single spell effect to the sanctified site. The spell effect lasts for one year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of the normal duration and area or effect. You may designate whether the effect applies to all creatures, creatures who share your faith, or creatures who adhere to another faith. At the end of the year, the chosen effect lapses, but it can be renewed or replaced simply by casting sanctify site again. Spell effects that may be tied to a sanctified site include aid, bane, bless, cause fear, darkness, daylight, death ward, deeper darkness, detect devotion, detect magic, dimensional anchor, discern lies, dispel magic, endure elements, freedom of movement, invisibility purge, protection from energy, remove fear, resist energy, silence, tongues, and zone of truth. Saving throws and spell resistance might apply to these spells’ effects. (See the individual spell descriptions for details.) An area can receive only one sanctify site spell (and its associated spell effect) at a time. Material Component Herbs, oils, and incense worth at least 1,000 gp, plus 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be included in the sanctified area. Replaces Hallow and Unhallow -------------------------------------- >> Align Weapon Removed
Rerecros 08-03-06, 01:03 AM	I like it. You are going to have to remap the nether-world, and the current system of outsider classification would be obsolete. Maybe gods can keep a variety of outsiders as their special servants for particular purposes, regardless if they are fiend, celestial or otherwise. Are you a good person? You are still a Recusant. Do you give tribute to Zeus, Pelor, and Heironeous? You are still a Recusant. Why? because there are a few hundred deities, most of which you've never heard of, that you have managed to offend. :P
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-06, 01:40 AM	I like it. Thanks :) You are going to have to remap the nether-world, and the current system of outsider classification would be obsolete. Maybe gods can keep a variety of outsiders as their special servants for particular purposes, regardless if they are fiend, celestial or otherwise. I'm leaving this up to the DM/World Builder I have my way, but I see no need to pigeon hole anyone. Are you a good person? You are still a Recusant. Do you give tribute to Zeus, Pelor, and Heironeous? You are still a Recusant. Why? because there are a few hundred deities, most of which you've never heard of, that you have managed to offend. :P Yeah, everyone's probably someone's recusant.At least with the new spells, you don't get turned into raspberry jam by everyone's Holy Word like True Neutral used to.
Muniloka 08-03-06, 09:00 AM	Hey man, just wanted to let you know this is great and I like a lot of the stuff you've done in your CS. I'm thinking of doing an adaption of this to either do away with, or take the focus away from, alignments. Figured I'd ask for permission to tinker with it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-03-06, 05:08 PM	Go for it. Its published on my site as OGL material.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-02-06, 07:24 PM	The a final addition to this system: Clerics and turn undead Not all god care about the existence of undead one way or the other. Therefore, their clerics instead gain the ability to smite enemies. Smite (Su): Once per day, a cleric may make an attack that deals 1 additional point of damage per cleric level. A cleric gains an additional usage of this ability at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter. Clerics of gods that consider undead to be enemies or allies grant the ability to turn/rebuke undead as normal.
Werral 05-01-07, 05:57 PM	The a final addition to this system: Clerics and turn undead Not all god care about the existence of undead one way or the other. Therefore, their clerics instead gain the ability to smite enemies. Smite (Su): Once per day, a cleric may make an attack that deals 1 additional point of damage per cleric level. A cleric gains an additional usage of this ability at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter. Clerics of gods that consider undead to be enemies or allies grant the ability to turn/rebuke undead as normal. Kinda 2E where you had priests of different mythos with different granted powers - so a war god got inspire rage, a healing god got extra healing and a slasa god granted rythm.
bludmarine 05-03-07, 03:39 PM	Kinda 2E where you had priests of different mythos with different granted powers - so a war god got inspire rage, a healing god got extra healing and a slasa god granted rythm. Very intuitive however in that the cleric's "special ability" would more closely reflect the god's focus. All in all I like this system for clerics a little more than what stands. Keep up the good work.
taltamir 05-03-07, 09:39 PM	ooh, this actually solves the only problem with my alternative system which I advocated for years. The recuisants. I was thinking of using ally, neutral, and enemy. But with having ally, neutral, recuissant, and enemy it becomes alot more complete, and its easier to place people. (alot of people weren't exactly neutral, but didn't warrent the enemy status). I very much like it, its great and should completely replace the current rules.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-03-07, 11:02 PM	I'm not happy with my stopgap replacement for turn undead though. For my CS, I may replace them with 'Divine Inspirations' that fuel diety specific abilities ala the Divine feats in CD.
taltamir 05-04-07, 02:16 AM	Mmmmm.. turn undead is simple, it is based on the deity and has nothing to do with the undead... IE, undeads have NO alignment. They are simply turned / rebuked based on the deity's choice. Some deities that are neutral on the subject of undead may provide no undead related abilities at all... MMmmm. but people will whine. So maybe have sentient undead have alignment. And each deity would have its own preference as to how to deal with undead (disregarding their alignment, or taking it into account). Or maybe just consider all undead as affected by deity's undead related power unless they are specifically considered allies of said deity.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-05-07, 01:44 AM	Turn undead is a pretty stupid power for all gods to be offering, IMO. Only specific death gods and nature gods (if they see them as unnatural) should care. The actual turn/rebuke mechanics -- devorced fromt he idea of undead work for elemental gods well enough, and nature gods would could use the rebuke/command animals or plants. More abstract gods, like gods of song, or fertility are the major thorn with a turn based system (also the smite based system.) I suppose I could make a divine inspiration ability that either turns (but does not destroy) enemies, and somehow bolsters allies.
taltamir 05-05-07, 02:07 PM	actually yea, but a turn rebuke SOMETHING should be offered... not undead though. So gods of nature should offer rebuke animals/plants While gods of undeath rebuke undead etc
Werral 05-05-07, 04:10 PM	How about a return to the 2E paradigm (but not the system): Cleric is a generic priest. Priests can be of a specific mythos - for example the Druid. So basically you can give any cleric a power of an equal power level to turn undead based on their deity. Turning/rebuking different stuff works too. But a godess of song might grant some Bardic abilities for example.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-05-07, 09:09 PM	actually yea, but a turn rebuke SOMETHING should be offered... not undead though. So gods of nature should offer rebuke animals/plants While gods of undeath rebuke undead The problem is that not every god's dogma lends itself to turning/rebuking -- OR turning/rebuking things in thier domain would be unblanced. For example: A nature god turns/rebukes animals. Cool. But who does the god of dance turn/rebuke? So while many gods can work with turning, not all can. Such is why I'm considering calling it Divine Inspiration x/day (or based on Cha Score) and each god gets to choose what this x/day does. The god of nature still gives trun/rebuke, but the dance god bolsters perform checks or instills a calm emotions effect. Something like that.
taltamir 05-06-07, 11:50 PM	well, not all gods are as suitable for being the patrons of PC clerics... I mean, take for example the god of soup (excellent comic btw :P). Some gods are just not powerful...
JulesCARV 05-07-07, 12:21 AM	I think this system does well at what it's supposed to do, but personally, if I were getting rid of alignment, I'd just as soon get rid of effects based on who is a friend or foe entirely. Special effects that only affect animals, or only affect undead, are fine, but I'd get rid of spells based on both "we have different alignments" and "our gods don't like each other." "Magic circle" spells, for instance, would be selective at the cleric's discretion, not based on the god's allies, recusants, and enemies. A cleric who casts deific smiting on a loyal follower of the same deity may lose his powers, but the spell would still work, assuming he managed to cast it before losing his powers. Whether the god stripped him of his power before he could get it off or he got it off beforehand, either way, it wouldn't be the case that he just casts it on someone and it doesn't do anything because the cleric and the target follow the same deity. That's just how I'd do it personally, though. If the objective is to have things less alignment-centric and more god-centric, then this works fine.
Werral 05-07-07, 06:35 AM	well, not all gods are as suitable for being the patrons of PC clerics... I mean, take for example the god of soup (excellent comic btw :P). Some gods are just not powerful... If you were using the Gods from the PHB, you could make sure they are equal. No need for all gods to be equal though. In fact you could use the lesser gods as patrons of adepts (or simply use the clerics of lesser gods as the equivelent to adepts). I think all the specific (only hurts evil/good) comes more from MAgic the Gathering then earlier D&D.
taltamir 05-08-07, 02:31 AM	I think this system does well at what it's supposed to do, but personally, if I were getting rid of alignment, I'd just as soon get rid of effects based on who is a friend or foe entirely. Special effects that only affect animals, or only affect undead, are fine, but I'd get rid of spells based on both "we have different alignments" and "our gods don't like each other." "Magic circle" spells, for instance, would be selective at the cleric's discretion, not based on the god's allies, recusants, and enemies. A cleric who casts deific smiting on a loyal follower of the same deity may lose his powers, but the spell would still work, assuming he managed to cast it before losing his powers. Whether the god stripped him of his power before he could get it off or he got it off beforehand, either way, it wouldn't be the case that he just casts it on someone and it doesn't do anything because the cleric and the target follow the same deity. That's just how I'd do it personally, though. If the objective is to have things less alignment-centric and more god-centric, then this works fine. Excellent point... I think magic circle actually should be against OUTSIDERS rather then alignment... maybe a specific plane per spell. (although having one spell for all of them balances removing its effect on evil / good humans). Warrel: And you raise a good point.