Bad Paladins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bad Paladins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jerephyn
02-19-07, 09:08 PM Looking for some ideas here. First a quick description of my situation.

I have a mostly home-brewed world.

In this world is a nation called Harneth-Thay that has always had great reverance for the church of Heironeous. At some point the church becomes over-zealous and starts to "motivate" people to be more devout.

Worshiping Heironeous is no longer an option unless you want to go into hiding. People are tried and executed for treason or heresy if they do not follow the church and participate in crusades when called upon to do so and if they do not make reasonable attempts to go on pilgramages to the Holy Mountain of Heironeous.

This nation begins aggresive action towards neigboring nations that they feel are not dealing harshly enough with the forces of evil and chaos and some are absorbed into the new empire.

The characters flee to one of these nations called Bellavin to avoid conscription. There is now a price on their heads for treason if they ever return home. They are currently acting as special forces for Bellavin in it's struggle to remain free.

The PC's do not know this but the players probably suspect it - something evil has hijacked the church of Heironeous. The higher level priests and paladins are probably in on the conspiracy while the middle and lower level NPC's are just deceived. This evil is powerful enough to act as a surrogate for cleric spells, etc. and tricky enough to avoid detection. Heironeous probably knows. But, he is unable to directly intervene.

A couple of months after the PC's flee, the king is accused of heresy and imprisoned. Harneth-Thay becomes a theocracy.

Here is where I need help:

I haven't really decided who\what has taken over the church of Heironeous.

I want the truth to slowly come out and the PC's to be involved in exposing whoever/whatever corrupted the church and in the struggle to drive it away or eliminate it.

I want ideas on what this thing could be and adventures for getting at the truth and defeating it.

The party consists of four 9th level characters; a wizard/rogue/daggerspell mage with aspirations toward arcane trickster, a cleric of Kord, a druid and barbarian/rogue.

Thanks in advance for the help.
DarthMidget
02-19-07, 09:20 PM Well you really have two options:

1. Another deity has somehow secreted members of his own cult in the Church of Heironeous. Since this is a deity we're talking about here that easily answers the question of how spells are being cast, prayers answered, etc etc.

2. A demon or some other powerful type of Outsider has taken control of the Church. If it were something suitably powerful it could answer prayers and grant spells, and what have you.

Here is my major concern though: If this is a major religion with high-level priests and paladins how did some powerful malicious entity take control? It is believeable that a certain number of high-ranking members might be corrupted, but not all of them would be. It is somehow beyond reality for me to believe that a significant chunk of a faith's high-level characters could be corrupted into the worship of a demon/evil god.

Now, the one way you could get away from this is to simply separate high-level from high-ranking. The church might have a number of high-level clerics, paladins, and monks, but these people are not necessarily in positions of authority. Most of the church's upper echelon of leadership are low-level aristocrats and clerics who are far more politically savvy than individually powerful. This would I think offer a more believable scenario.

The high-level paladins go on a crusade because the head of the church (Lvl 4 Aristocrat - demonin influence) has ordered them to do so. The paladins haven't actually met the Holy Father (or whatever his name is) in person in sometime (since the evil linfluence began), but they received their orders from a trusted cardinal or archbishop.

So, if you put a number of layers of bureaucracy between the people worshipping something bad, and the people who can actually sense/see that sort of thing your plotline should stand up to careful PC scrutiny.
Return of the Flumph
02-19-07, 09:35 PM Well you really have two options:

1. Another deity has somehow secreted members of his own cult in the Church of Heironeous. Since this is a deity we're talking about here that easily answers the question of how spells are being cast, prayers answered, etc etc.

2. A demon or some other powerful type of Outsider has taken control of the Church. If it were something suitably powerful it could answer prayers and grant spells, and what have you.

Here is my major concern though: If this is a major religion with high-level priests and paladins how did some powerful malicious entity take control? It is believeable that a certain number of high-ranking members might be corrupted, but not all of them would be. It is somehow beyond reality for me to believe that a significant chunk of a faith's high-level characters could be corrupted into the worship of a demon/evil god.

Now, the one way you could get away from this is to simply separate high-level from high-ranking. The church might have a number of high-level clerics, paladins, and monks, but these people are not necessarily in positions of authority. Most of the church's upper echelon of leadership are low-level aristocrats and clerics who are far more politically savvy than individually powerful. This would I think offer a more believable scenario.

The high-level paladins go on a crusade because the head of the church (Lvl 4 Aristocrat - demonin influence) has ordered them to do so. The paladins haven't actually met the Holy Father (or whatever his name is) in person in sometime (since the evil linfluence began), but they received their orders from a trusted cardinal or archbishop.

So, if you put a number of layers of bureaucracy between the people worshipping something bad, and the people who can actually sense/see that sort of thing your plotline should stand up to careful PC scrutiny.

Strong agreement here.

Anyway, the being most likely to attempt something like this and stand even a chance of success is Asmodeus, the King of Hell. His ability to manipulate politics and deceive the masses is greater than that of any other being in the universe, his cultists maintain a world-spanning secret society that specializes at infiltrating large governments and churches, and-in addition to being powerful enough to grant spells on his own-he has many gods and archdevils who are loyal to him who can also grant spells. I think this is your man...or...whatever he is.
taradusis
02-19-07, 10:53 PM If hextor were more subtle it could be him serving as a power source.A twist might be a neutral deity trying to show the folly of aligment extremes and causing a downfall of the church as a sort of "grand example"?
Jerephyn
02-19-07, 11:19 PM Asmodeus. I like it! Fits in well with some other things I have going on that I won't mention just in case one of my players stumbles on this.
;)

In respone to DarthMidget, I agree it is hard to believe that so many high level NPCs would become corrupted. I was thinking of a powerful artifact of some kind at the Mountain of Heironeous that might have a "Dominate Person" affect. Those making their saves would either become genuinely corrupted or never return from the pilgrimage. Some might be too smart or be warned and never make the pilgrimage. Those could be excommunicated and discredited by the very persuasive, politicaly savvy types that you mentioned.

I forgot to mention that the sect of the Church of Heironeous that has taken control is called The Brotherhood of the Purifying Light. So, maybe this artifact radiates a great deal of light when viewed for the first time by someone and the person feels like they have experienced some sort of revelation/purification. They may still not know that it is an evil entity that now guides their actions. Would posession be an option? I haven't come across many rules for possession.

I still need to come up with a mechanism to defeat detect magic and detect evil spells. I suppose the easy way out is to say that since the effect is from an artifact, detection spells will not work.

There could be all kinds of cover stories for those that do not return from the pilgrimage like "some who visit the holy site cannot bear to leave and stay as keepers and guardians of the light."

Comments?
s4ndm4n
02-20-07, 10:46 AM a pleasure devil (tyrants of the nine hells pg. 134) is ideal. otherwise, try a erynies devil with sorcerer (or whatever) class levels. im suggesting devils 'cause it has 2 be LE
DarthMidget
02-20-07, 12:31 PM I still need to come up with a mechanism to defeat detect magic and detect evil spells. I suppose the easy way out is to say that since the effect is from an artifact, detection spells will not work.

This is a tricky problem. If the PCs have to fight a paladin or cleric who is engaging in questionable activity they will probably use some detect magic/evil spells. Such magic might reveal the presence of domination and/or alignment change brought about by this artifact.

Of course, there is a slightly sneaky way you might be able to get around that. In the scenario it could be that only a minority of the paladins/priests have been to encounter this artifact. This minority, however, are a large segment of the commanding officers of the paladins and the clerical archbishops. As such they give the orders.

So the early encounters that the PCs would have would be with paladins and clerics who are not evil, and who are just following orders. So when the PCs use detect magic and detect evil on these guys they get nothing back. Now it would be important to remember that these NPCs wouldn't do anything too heinous, but an aggressive war might not be out of bounds. Especially if their faith does not consider religious wars to be a sin. So that's one avenue to consider.

Another potential solution is that the artifact does not rely upon magical energy. Magic can be detected by spells and items. I think, however, psionics are different. I don't think a psionic ability shows up as anything under detect magic (right??). If this is the case then you could have the artifact use a psionic effect to twist the minds of those who encounter it. That way nothing shows up on detect magic. You could also explain that nothing will show up on detect evil either. That's because the people who are dominated by the psionic artifact do not become evil. They simply are incapable of not following the orders of those who outrank them or some such thing.

Just some thoughts.
JulesCARV
02-20-07, 03:00 PM I think that psionics shows up with detect magic and vice versa, but people without psicraft aren't likely to know what to make of the auras. Someone with detect magic and good spellcraft is likely to be able to pinpoint enchantment effects, but has no idea how to distinguish telepathy effects from psychometabolism effects. (and the opposite for a psion using detect psionics: he can see the auras of both magic and psionics, but psicraft helps him tell clairsentience from psychoportation but doesn't help him in knowing the difference between conjuration and divination.)
JosephKell
02-20-07, 04:02 PM See Eberron. In Eberron Clerics have an Aura according to their diety (as normal), but you don't have to match alignments.

So a high ranking (level 12-ish) Cleric of the Church of the Silver Flame might be Lawful Evil, but detects as Lawful Good (cleric aura drowns out personal aura).

Something like that could be easily adapted.

Now the trick is to have the person still follow the tenets of the church in question. In Eberron one such crusade instigated by baddies was the near extinction of lycanthropes (Eberron has 12 moons, used to be 13, so there are like only 2 or 3 nights a month without a full moon).

That sad, Paladins still had to be Lawful Good (perhaps alluding to that Paladins don't just draw powers from Deities but perhaps from positive energy).

In the case of Heironeous that might be harder. If you are looking for game mechanics for bad paladins, perhaps Pious Templars that are evil? and just ignore the alignment requirement?
AhzRiael
02-27-07, 03:25 PM Ive had this happen, I swear my NPCs have minds of their own.

What you do is start a religious movement. Get the people behind it, at least most of the people. Commoners are stupid, medieval commoners are doubly so. While many may now be fleeing the oppression, at first the majority of the population was great with this new change. They may be having second thoughts now.
So this movement was started by a cult leader of an evil deity, one of the lords of hell sounds like a great plan, they engineered a situation when they could get themselves into a position of power. Then when in that role they started this movement, another cult leader outside the church could have done this to avoid suspicion, and the members inside latched on.
When people started supporting this rally the rational members of the church's complaints went by the way side. You can oust them, kill them, publicly execute them, or even leave them in for plot development later on.
By the time that people start to realize whats going on, its too late, they've lost their freedom and evil, in the cleaver guise of anti-evil, is in control.
Resistance could be something within the structure of the government, a small group of paladins and clerics who secretly oppose the rule and fight to undermine it. Also you could make this part of a larger plot to rid the world of the lords evil rivals.
You certainly have the makings of a long and amazing campaign here. Good show!
Jerephyn
03-04-07, 08:22 PM they've lost their freedom and evil, in the cleaver guise of anti-evil, is in control.

Is it just me, or is this painfully close to reality?

Thanks for the ideas everyone!

I believe I can make this work and seem believable at the same time. It scales so well too. As the players peel back the layers, the encounters get tougher and they gain levels to meet the challenge of tougher encounters. There is even potential for epic adventures here. Although, that might be beyond my skill as a DM.
kryus
03-04-07, 11:26 PM In Greyhawk there is a god called Pholtus (of the Blinding Light) that is very close to what you describe.

Maybe the church of Heironeous is slipping from LG to LN on it's own as leaders feel that this is the only righteous way and the only god worth worshiping. One path to lawfulness. One path to the light. One path to salvation. Conservatism and intolerance leads to ideology that is both extremist and oppressive. And once ideology becomes action the wave is hard to stop.

Of course, Asmodeus and his minions could be responsible for making these subtle manipulations within the church by aiding the promotion of more conservative members (extremists) and impeding the more progressive ones. It's called placing the right peons in the right position. By manipulating the hierarchy the church of Heironeous for years from the outside, the shift towards lawfulness over goodness has went undetected. And because the hierarchy is manipulated from the outside it is not detectable by magical means.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jerephyn 02-19-07, 09:08 PM	Looking for some ideas here. First a quick description of my situation. I have a mostly home-brewed world. In this world is a nation called Harneth-Thay that has always had great reverance for the church of Heironeous. At some point the church becomes over-zealous and starts to "motivate" people to be more devout. Worshiping Heironeous is no longer an option unless you want to go into hiding. People are tried and executed for treason or heresy if they do not follow the church and participate in crusades when called upon to do so and if they do not make reasonable attempts to go on pilgramages to the Holy Mountain of Heironeous. This nation begins aggresive action towards neigboring nations that they feel are not dealing harshly enough with the forces of evil and chaos and some are absorbed into the new empire. The characters flee to one of these nations called Bellavin to avoid conscription. There is now a price on their heads for treason if they ever return home. They are currently acting as special forces for Bellavin in it's struggle to remain free. The PC's do not know this but the players probably suspect it - something evil has hijacked the church of Heironeous. The higher level priests and paladins are probably in on the conspiracy while the middle and lower level NPC's are just deceived. This evil is powerful enough to act as a surrogate for cleric spells, etc. and tricky enough to avoid detection. Heironeous probably knows. But, he is unable to directly intervene. A couple of months after the PC's flee, the king is accused of heresy and imprisoned. Harneth-Thay becomes a theocracy. Here is where I need help: I haven't really decided who\what has taken over the church of Heironeous. I want the truth to slowly come out and the PC's to be involved in exposing whoever/whatever corrupted the church and in the struggle to drive it away or eliminate it. I want ideas on what this thing could be and adventures for getting at the truth and defeating it. The party consists of four 9th level characters; a wizard/rogue/daggerspell mage with aspirations toward arcane trickster, a cleric of Kord, a druid and barbarian/rogue. Thanks in advance for the help.
DarthMidget 02-19-07, 09:20 PM	Well you really have two options: 1. Another deity has somehow secreted members of his own cult in the Church of Heironeous. Since this is a deity we're talking about here that easily answers the question of how spells are being cast, prayers answered, etc etc. 2. A demon or some other powerful type of Outsider has taken control of the Church. If it were something suitably powerful it could answer prayers and grant spells, and what have you. Here is my major concern though: If this is a major religion with high-level priests and paladins how did some powerful malicious entity take control? It is believeable that a certain number of high-ranking members might be corrupted, but not all of them would be. It is somehow beyond reality for me to believe that a significant chunk of a faith's high-level characters could be corrupted into the worship of a demon/evil god. Now, the one way you could get away from this is to simply separate high-level from high-ranking. The church might have a number of high-level clerics, paladins, and monks, but these people are not necessarily in positions of authority. Most of the church's upper echelon of leadership are low-level aristocrats and clerics who are far more politically savvy than individually powerful. This would I think offer a more believable scenario. The high-level paladins go on a crusade because the head of the church (Lvl 4 Aristocrat - demonin influence) has ordered them to do so. The paladins haven't actually met the Holy Father (or whatever his name is) in person in sometime (since the evil linfluence began), but they received their orders from a trusted cardinal or archbishop. So, if you put a number of layers of bureaucracy between the people worshipping something bad, and the people who can actually sense/see that sort of thing your plotline should stand up to careful PC scrutiny.
Return of the Flumph 02-19-07, 09:35 PM	Well you really have two options: 1. Another deity has somehow secreted members of his own cult in the Church of Heironeous. Since this is a deity we're talking about here that easily answers the question of how spells are being cast, prayers answered, etc etc. 2. A demon or some other powerful type of Outsider has taken control of the Church. If it were something suitably powerful it could answer prayers and grant spells, and what have you. Here is my major concern though: If this is a major religion with high-level priests and paladins how did some powerful malicious entity take control? It is believeable that a certain number of high-ranking members might be corrupted, but not all of them would be. It is somehow beyond reality for me to believe that a significant chunk of a faith's high-level characters could be corrupted into the worship of a demon/evil god. Now, the one way you could get away from this is to simply separate high-level from high-ranking. The church might have a number of high-level clerics, paladins, and monks, but these people are not necessarily in positions of authority. Most of the church's upper echelon of leadership are low-level aristocrats and clerics who are far more politically savvy than individually powerful. This would I think offer a more believable scenario. The high-level paladins go on a crusade because the head of the church (Lvl 4 Aristocrat - demonin influence) has ordered them to do so. The paladins haven't actually met the Holy Father (or whatever his name is) in person in sometime (since the evil linfluence began), but they received their orders from a trusted cardinal or archbishop. So, if you put a number of layers of bureaucracy between the people worshipping something bad, and the people who can actually sense/see that sort of thing your plotline should stand up to careful PC scrutiny. Strong agreement here. Anyway, the being most likely to attempt something like this and stand even a chance of success is Asmodeus, the King of Hell. His ability to manipulate politics and deceive the masses is greater than that of any other being in the universe, his cultists maintain a world-spanning secret society that specializes at infiltrating large governments and churches, and-in addition to being powerful enough to grant spells on his own-he has many gods and archdevils who are loyal to him who can also grant spells. I think this is your man...or...whatever he is.
taradusis 02-19-07, 10:53 PM	If hextor were more subtle it could be him serving as a power source.A twist might be a neutral deity trying to show the folly of aligment extremes and causing a downfall of the church as a sort of "grand example"?
Jerephyn 02-19-07, 11:19 PM	Asmodeus. I like it! Fits in well with some other things I have going on that I won't mention just in case one of my players stumbles on this. ;) In respone to DarthMidget, I agree it is hard to believe that so many high level NPCs would become corrupted. I was thinking of a powerful artifact of some kind at the Mountain of Heironeous that might have a "Dominate Person" affect. Those making their saves would either become genuinely corrupted or never return from the pilgrimage. Some might be too smart or be warned and never make the pilgrimage. Those could be excommunicated and discredited by the very persuasive, politicaly savvy types that you mentioned. I forgot to mention that the sect of the Church of Heironeous that has taken control is called The Brotherhood of the Purifying Light. So, maybe this artifact radiates a great deal of light when viewed for the first time by someone and the person feels like they have experienced some sort of revelation/purification. They may still not know that it is an evil entity that now guides their actions. Would posession be an option? I haven't come across many rules for possession. I still need to come up with a mechanism to defeat detect magic and detect evil spells. I suppose the easy way out is to say that since the effect is from an artifact, detection spells will not work. There could be all kinds of cover stories for those that do not return from the pilgrimage like "some who visit the holy site cannot bear to leave and stay as keepers and guardians of the light." Comments?
s4ndm4n 02-20-07, 10:46 AM	a pleasure devil (tyrants of the nine hells pg. 134) is ideal. otherwise, try a erynies devil with sorcerer (or whatever) class levels. im suggesting devils 'cause it has 2 be LE
DarthMidget 02-20-07, 12:31 PM	I still need to come up with a mechanism to defeat detect magic and detect evil spells. I suppose the easy way out is to say that since the effect is from an artifact, detection spells will not work. This is a tricky problem. If the PCs have to fight a paladin or cleric who is engaging in questionable activity they will probably use some detect magic/evil spells. Such magic might reveal the presence of domination and/or alignment change brought about by this artifact. Of course, there is a slightly sneaky way you might be able to get around that. In the scenario it could be that only a minority of the paladins/priests have been to encounter this artifact. This minority, however, are a large segment of the commanding officers of the paladins and the clerical archbishops. As such they give the orders. So the early encounters that the PCs would have would be with paladins and clerics who are not evil, and who are just following orders. So when the PCs use detect magic and detect evil on these guys they get nothing back. Now it would be important to remember that these NPCs wouldn't do anything too heinous, but an aggressive war might not be out of bounds. Especially if their faith does not consider religious wars to be a sin. So that's one avenue to consider. Another potential solution is that the artifact does not rely upon magical energy. Magic can be detected by spells and items. I think, however, psionics are different. I don't think a psionic ability shows up as anything under detect magic (right??). If this is the case then you could have the artifact use a psionic effect to twist the minds of those who encounter it. That way nothing shows up on detect magic. You could also explain that nothing will show up on detect evil either. That's because the people who are dominated by the psionic artifact do not become evil. They simply are incapable of not following the orders of those who outrank them or some such thing. Just some thoughts.
JulesCARV 02-20-07, 03:00 PM	I think that psionics shows up with detect magic and vice versa, but people without psicraft aren't likely to know what to make of the auras. Someone with detect magic and good spellcraft is likely to be able to pinpoint enchantment effects, but has no idea how to distinguish telepathy effects from psychometabolism effects. (and the opposite for a psion using detect psionics: he can see the auras of both magic and psionics, but psicraft helps him tell clairsentience from psychoportation but doesn't help him in knowing the difference between conjuration and divination.)
JosephKell 02-20-07, 04:02 PM	See Eberron. In Eberron Clerics have an Aura according to their diety (as normal), but you don't have to match alignments. So a high ranking (level 12-ish) Cleric of the Church of the Silver Flame might be Lawful Evil, but detects as Lawful Good (cleric aura drowns out personal aura). Something like that could be easily adapted. Now the trick is to have the person still follow the tenets of the church in question. In Eberron one such crusade instigated by baddies was the near extinction of lycanthropes (Eberron has 12 moons, used to be 13, so there are like only 2 or 3 nights a month without a full moon). That sad, Paladins still had to be Lawful Good (perhaps alluding to that Paladins don't just draw powers from Deities but perhaps from positive energy). In the case of Heironeous that might be harder. If you are looking for game mechanics for bad paladins, perhaps Pious Templars that are evil? and just ignore the alignment requirement?
AhzRiael 02-27-07, 03:25 PM	Ive had this happen, I swear my NPCs have minds of their own. What you do is start a religious movement. Get the people behind it, at least most of the people. Commoners are stupid, medieval commoners are doubly so. While many may now be fleeing the oppression, at first the majority of the population was great with this new change. They may be having second thoughts now. So this movement was started by a cult leader of an evil deity, one of the lords of hell sounds like a great plan, they engineered a situation when they could get themselves into a position of power. Then when in that role they started this movement, another cult leader outside the church could have done this to avoid suspicion, and the members inside latched on. When people started supporting this rally the rational members of the church's complaints went by the way side. You can oust them, kill them, publicly execute them, or even leave them in for plot development later on. By the time that people start to realize whats going on, its too late, they've lost their freedom and evil, in the cleaver guise of anti-evil, is in control. Resistance could be something within the structure of the government, a small group of paladins and clerics who secretly oppose the rule and fight to undermine it. Also you could make this part of a larger plot to rid the world of the lords evil rivals. You certainly have the makings of a long and amazing campaign here. Good show!
Jerephyn 03-04-07, 08:22 PM	they've lost their freedom and evil, in the cleaver guise of anti-evil, is in control. Is it just me, or is this painfully close to reality? Thanks for the ideas everyone! I believe I can make this work and seem believable at the same time. It scales so well too. As the players peel back the layers, the encounters get tougher and they gain levels to meet the challenge of tougher encounters. There is even potential for epic adventures here. Although, that might be beyond my skill as a DM.
kryus 03-04-07, 11:26 PM	In Greyhawk there is a god called Pholtus (of the Blinding Light) that is very close to what you describe. Maybe the church of Heironeous is slipping from LG to LN on it's own as leaders feel that this is the only righteous way and the only god worth worshiping. One path to lawfulness. One path to the light. One path to salvation. Conservatism and intolerance leads to ideology that is both extremist and oppressive. And once ideology becomes action the wave is hard to stop. Of course, Asmodeus and his minions could be responsible for making these subtle manipulations within the church by aiding the promotion of more conservative members (extremists) and impeding the more progressive ones. It's called placing the right peons in the right position. By manipulating the hierarchy the church of Heironeous for years from the outside, the shift towards lawfulness over goodness has went undetected. And because the hierarchy is manipulated from the outside it is not detectable by magical means.