BBEG encounter too difficult? [Archive] - Wizards Community

BBEG encounter too difficult? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maxxim
07-23-07, 09:55 PM I'm relatively new at DMing, and I'm not yet that good at gauging whether my encounters are too hard or too easy.

The group: all level 5. Cleric, rogue/swashbuckler, sorcerer, ranger, barbarian/duskblade.

The encounter: BBEG is cleric 6/blackguard 3. He has an ogre minion, as well as 4 zombies (human commoner).

The PCs are a bit over the recommended wealth per level, and all good players. However, calculating the encounter gives me a 9.6 CR.

I want an encounter that is "bring your A game or die," but not "so hard you likely won't live."

Is this way over the top? If so, how should I modify it to make it very challenging, but not overwhelming?
Captain_Impulse
07-23-07, 11:05 PM I don't know how crafty your players are, but I think you're probably alright with that setup. It's better to have an overpowered baddie and scale it down a bit if things are going bad, than to have a weak one and scale him up. Players are more keenly aware of things turning against them than for them.
Manyfist
07-23-07, 11:20 PM Well, if you don't want your players to die I would "fix" some rolls done by your BBEG such as "roll" a 1 when it would of hit the player with the lowest HP. Also, fix the player rolls if they're too weak to hit sometimes, like say "thats a 20, not a 2."
hovnarr
07-24-07, 04:44 AM I disagree with both previous posters:

It's better to have an overpowered baddie and scale it down a bit if things are going bad, than to have a weak one and scale him up.

I think scaling someone up or down once the party is in combat is just plain wrong. The NPC is created and then he is there. The only thing you could possibly be lenient on once in combat is tactics, but if the NPC has no reason to use a subpar tactic, that's just bad role playing.

Well, if you don't want your players to die I would "fix" some rolls done by your BBEG such as "roll" a 1 when it would of hit the player with the lowest HP. Also, fix the player rolls if they're too weak to hit sometimes, like say "thats a 20, not a 2."

I don't think a DM should ever do that. One thing I do though is award players action points for excellent performance (in combat, role playing, solving puzzles etc.) and they can use these for rerolls.

The encounter: BBEG is cleric 6/blackguard 3. He has an ogre minion, as well as 4 zombies (human commoner).

The PCs are a bit over the recommended wealth per level, and all good players. However, calculating the encounter gives me a 9.6 CR.

There's nothing in that quote that immediately makes me think "impossible!" or "not too challenging", but I think you should consider what combat actions this boss will actually take rather than what he could do. First, stat him up, down to his last memorized spell and item. Then script him up, at least for the first 5 rounds of combat. Also add contingencies such as "if a player goes invisible, the cleric will first use a potion of See Invisibility" or "if hp drops below 25%, he will immediately cast Cure Moderate Wounds". That way, you're just following the script, you can gauge the BBEG power before combat starts, and there will be few surprises for you as a DM.

Also consider things like Likely Player Response. For example, what would the PCs do if the cleric cast obscuring mist mid battle and hid in there while healing up to full hp and summoning some fresh allies? How would the party arcane caster handle failing his Fort save on a Blindness spell? How would the party tank handle failing a will save for Hold Person, perhaps while in melee with that ogre? Would you have the ogre Coup de Grace him if that situation came up? Why not? Perhaps the ogre decides that, once held, there are more pressing matters to attend to than an immobile fighter. That's a valid decision from a role play perspective - you wanting to spare a PCs life is not.

Just some things to consider.
Manyfist
07-24-07, 08:08 AM [QUOTE]
I don't think a DM should ever do that. One thing I do though is award players action points for excellent performance (in combat, role playing, solving puzzles etc.) and they can use these for rerolls.

If he doesn't want his players to die, and if he's not running with Action points, then I would fix the dice rolls. However if he has action points, then there is no need to even put this up. Since even if a challenge is a challenge (I.E not take up 20% of their resources but has a 90-100% chance of mortality if handled badly), for action points allows re-rolls.
runestar
07-24-07, 08:31 AM The EL you projected is slightly misleading.

The zombies will not be able to contribute to the battle in any meaningful way, save for adding some atmosphere to the scene.

The ogre shouldn't pose too much of a problem to the PCs (it might get in 1 solid hit, but should go down without too much of a hassle).

Blackguard and cleric don't really have much synergy with each other. It will definitely be weaker than say, a cleric9. I will still accord the PCs xp for overcoming a cr9 challenge (I really don't see the need to deny them their rightful share of xp), but bear in mind that the cleric/blackguard npc is roughly cr8 at most.

On a side note, your build is illegal by the rules. I assume you are using the trickery domain to get the ranks in hide necessary to qualify, but you still lack the bab of +6 needed to enter blackguard. I guess that shouldn't really matter in this aspect though.

The final EL is more around 8+. Should be enough to sufficiently challenge the PCs without being an outright TPK.
Maxxim
07-24-07, 09:24 AM Crap, I did miscount on the BAB. It was late... I'm going to have to rethink the whole thing then. Maybe a cleric/rogue/black flame zealot. Though for story purposes, I am trying to include a class that lets him command undead (which was the main reason for the blackguard).

Okay, so I guess the question has changed: the BBEG has to be part cleric (PCs already know they are hunting down an evil cleric), should be able to control undead, and should pose a significant challenge to the above-listed group.

Any suggestions on a better PrC?
hovnarr
07-24-07, 10:02 AM You don't need a PrC for that, any evil cleric can command undead if the turn check is sufficient. Just make him a cleric of appropriate level, though I'm thinking level 9 is a bit much for a 5th level party.
SirGog
07-28-07, 04:36 AM You don't need a PrC for that, any evil cleric can command undead if the turn check is sufficient. Just make him a cleric of appropriate level, though I'm thinking level 9 is a bit much for a 5th level party.

Level 9 clerics are particularly deadly for a lower level party due to one spell - Slay Living. Making this save is likely to be tough, and there's no second chances, especially with Resurrection requiring a level 13 NPC cleric and a fortune in diamonds.

Perhaps instead a Clr8 with more undead minions and a couple of scrolls of Mass Inflict Light Wounds.
runestar
07-28-07, 07:17 AM You don't have to get the cleric to prepare slay living. Maybe make a melee cleric of some sort. Summon a few monsters, cast buffs like divine favour, power and righteous might, then wade into battle or something.

But I agree that it might still be too strong. A lv7-8 cleric should fare just fine, unless you deliberately want it to be some sort of climatic end battle that pushes the PCs to their limits and maybe beyond. I mean - in the "Hand of Gruumsh" FR module, the 5th lv PCs also faced the equivalent of a cr9 boss.:)
LeuktheSavior
07-28-07, 07:59 AM psh, intelligent play is all that matters.a lvl 5 vcan easily take a CR 9 if the proper measures are taken prior to combat. And if they cant win, then they should be intelligent enough to run when the going gets too tough.
Alltat
07-28-07, 06:25 PM Crap, I did miscount on the BAB. It was late... I'm going to have to rethink the whole thing then.
He's an NPC and the class combination makes sense, so I don't really see why you would bother changing it? I doubt the players are going to complain, or even know, either way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maxxim 07-23-07, 09:55 PM	I'm relatively new at DMing, and I'm not yet that good at gauging whether my encounters are too hard or too easy. The group: all level 5. Cleric, rogue/swashbuckler, sorcerer, ranger, barbarian/duskblade. The encounter: BBEG is cleric 6/blackguard 3. He has an ogre minion, as well as 4 zombies (human commoner). The PCs are a bit over the recommended wealth per level, and all good players. However, calculating the encounter gives me a 9.6 CR. I want an encounter that is "bring your A game or die," but not "so hard you likely won't live." Is this way over the top? If so, how should I modify it to make it very challenging, but not overwhelming?
Captain_Impulse 07-23-07, 11:05 PM	I don't know how crafty your players are, but I think you're probably alright with that setup. It's better to have an overpowered baddie and scale it down a bit if things are going bad, than to have a weak one and scale him up. Players are more keenly aware of things turning against them than for them.
Manyfist 07-23-07, 11:20 PM	Well, if you don't want your players to die I would "fix" some rolls done by your BBEG such as "roll" a 1 when it would of hit the player with the lowest HP. Also, fix the player rolls if they're too weak to hit sometimes, like say "thats a 20, not a 2."
hovnarr 07-24-07, 04:44 AM	I disagree with both previous posters: It's better to have an overpowered baddie and scale it down a bit if things are going bad, than to have a weak one and scale him up. I think scaling someone up or down once the party is in combat is just plain wrong. The NPC is created and then he is there. The only thing you could possibly be lenient on once in combat is tactics, but if the NPC has no reason to use a subpar tactic, that's just bad role playing. Well, if you don't want your players to die I would "fix" some rolls done by your BBEG such as "roll" a 1 when it would of hit the player with the lowest HP. Also, fix the player rolls if they're too weak to hit sometimes, like say "thats a 20, not a 2." I don't think a DM should ever do that. One thing I do though is award players action points for excellent performance (in combat, role playing, solving puzzles etc.) and they can use these for rerolls. The encounter: BBEG is cleric 6/blackguard 3. He has an ogre minion, as well as 4 zombies (human commoner). The PCs are a bit over the recommended wealth per level, and all good players. However, calculating the encounter gives me a 9.6 CR. There's nothing in that quote that immediately makes me think "impossible!" or "not too challenging", but I think you should consider what combat actions this boss will actually take rather than what he could do. First, stat him up, down to his last memorized spell and item. Then script him up, at least for the first 5 rounds of combat. Also add contingencies such as "if a player goes invisible, the cleric will first use a potion of See Invisibility" or "if hp drops below 25%, he will immediately cast Cure Moderate Wounds". That way, you're just following the script, you can gauge the BBEG power before combat starts, and there will be few surprises for you as a DM. Also consider things like Likely Player Response. For example, what would the PCs do if the cleric cast obscuring mist mid battle and hid in there while healing up to full hp and summoning some fresh allies? How would the party arcane caster handle failing his Fort save on a Blindness spell? How would the party tank handle failing a will save for Hold Person, perhaps while in melee with that ogre? Would you have the ogre Coup de Grace him if that situation came up? Why not? Perhaps the ogre decides that, once held, there are more pressing matters to attend to than an immobile fighter. That's a valid decision from a role play perspective - you wanting to spare a PCs life is not. Just some things to consider.
Manyfist 07-24-07, 08:08 AM	[QUOTE] I don't think a DM should ever do that. One thing I do though is award players action points for excellent performance (in combat, role playing, solving puzzles etc.) and they can use these for rerolls. If he doesn't want his players to die, and if he's not running with Action points, then I would fix the dice rolls. However if he has action points, then there is no need to even put this up. Since even if a challenge is a challenge (I.E not take up 20% of their resources but has a 90-100% chance of mortality if handled badly), for action points allows re-rolls.
runestar 07-24-07, 08:31 AM	The EL you projected is slightly misleading. The zombies will not be able to contribute to the battle in any meaningful way, save for adding some atmosphere to the scene. The ogre shouldn't pose too much of a problem to the PCs (it might get in 1 solid hit, but should go down without too much of a hassle). Blackguard and cleric don't really have much synergy with each other. It will definitely be weaker than say, a cleric9. I will still accord the PCs xp for overcoming a cr9 challenge (I really don't see the need to deny them their rightful share of xp), but bear in mind that the cleric/blackguard npc is roughly cr8 at most. On a side note, your build is illegal by the rules. I assume you are using the trickery domain to get the ranks in hide necessary to qualify, but you still lack the bab of +6 needed to enter blackguard. I guess that shouldn't really matter in this aspect though. The final EL is more around 8+. Should be enough to sufficiently challenge the PCs without being an outright TPK.
Maxxim 07-24-07, 09:24 AM	Crap, I did miscount on the BAB. It was late... I'm going to have to rethink the whole thing then. Maybe a cleric/rogue/black flame zealot. Though for story purposes, I am trying to include a class that lets him command undead (which was the main reason for the blackguard). Okay, so I guess the question has changed: the BBEG has to be part cleric (PCs already know they are hunting down an evil cleric), should be able to control undead, and should pose a significant challenge to the above-listed group. Any suggestions on a better PrC?
hovnarr 07-24-07, 10:02 AM	You don't need a PrC for that, any evil cleric can command undead if the turn check is sufficient. Just make him a cleric of appropriate level, though I'm thinking level 9 is a bit much for a 5th level party.
SirGog 07-28-07, 04:36 AM	You don't need a PrC for that, any evil cleric can command undead if the turn check is sufficient. Just make him a cleric of appropriate level, though I'm thinking level 9 is a bit much for a 5th level party. Level 9 clerics are particularly deadly for a lower level party due to one spell - Slay Living. Making this save is likely to be tough, and there's no second chances, especially with Resurrection requiring a level 13 NPC cleric and a fortune in diamonds. Perhaps instead a Clr8 with more undead minions and a couple of scrolls of Mass Inflict Light Wounds.
runestar 07-28-07, 07:17 AM	You don't have to get the cleric to prepare slay living. Maybe make a melee cleric of some sort. Summon a few monsters, cast buffs like divine favour, power and righteous might, then wade into battle or something. But I agree that it might still be too strong. A lv7-8 cleric should fare just fine, unless you deliberately want it to be some sort of climatic end battle that pushes the PCs to their limits and maybe beyond. I mean - in the "Hand of Gruumsh" FR module, the 5th lv PCs also faced the equivalent of a cr9 boss.:)
LeuktheSavior 07-28-07, 07:59 AM	psh, intelligent play is all that matters.a lvl 5 vcan easily take a CR 9 if the proper measures are taken prior to combat. And if they cant win, then they should be intelligent enough to run when the going gets too tough.
Alltat 07-28-07, 06:25 PM	Crap, I did miscount on the BAB. It was late... I'm going to have to rethink the whole thing then. He's an NPC and the class combination makes sense, so I don't really see why you would bother changing it? I doubt the players are going to complain, or even know, either way.