Boats in a world without wood? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Boats in a world without wood? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pangalactic
06-19-07, 03:38 PM Hi there,

I'm in need of a little help. My campaign is set in a large bowl-shaped desert, with a lake situated in the middle of this bowl being the main source of water and food for the inhabitants. I've already established that wood is a very rare and valuable commodity.

With that in mind, I find myself with a problem. I've said that fishing is a lucrative business, and that the lake is always full of boats etc. My problem is, what materials could these boats be made from? Would the materials affect the design of the boats?

If anybody can help me with this, or lead me to some resources either online or in print, I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks in advance.
FlyingRoman
06-19-07, 03:45 PM I'm not sure but a combination of special animal hides and bird bones (large ones) could work for small rafts.
Darth Syntax
06-19-07, 03:50 PM Well, sense you have a lake, it is somewhat likely that there are reeds and grasses growing around it. A boat make out of bundles of reeds might work as would a hide boat with a woven, basket-like framework.

There is also the possibility of metal boats. It is certainly possible to have such things, as we have them now, and if your people are good at metal smithing they might have gone that direction.
Paladin's Pride
06-19-07, 03:56 PM I'm sure there are several materials you could come up with for boats. Giant cactuses could be carved out and made into boats (giant deserts have giant cactuses, right?). However, one interesting idea would be to have wood be extremely rare and still have boats made out of wood. It just makes boats extremely valuable. A person might spend years collecting enough wood to make a boat out of, but once he gets it together, he's got it made as a fisherman.
farmboy3400
06-19-07, 03:56 PM The hide and reed boats have already been mentioned.
For structure one can use bamboo or the hide can be shellaced to make it rigid.

Other possibilities: Inverted giant turtle shells; bladder rafts made from inflated animal stomachs or intestines; giant gourds grown into small boats once dried and halved.
pangalactic
06-19-07, 03:57 PM I like the idea of a basket-like frame with hide covering it. Maybe I could use wicker frames, like hot-air balloon baskets. Metal would work, and I had thought of that, but it doesn't really fit with the flavour of the world. So so far reeds and animal skin is sounding like my best option.
Darth Syntax
06-19-07, 04:02 PM Although the coracle is made with a willow frame, it's not a bad model for a wicker-framed small boat.
deanruel
06-19-07, 04:08 PM You could make them out of almost anything if you stated that they had air tight animal skins surrounding the frame. That way whether they're made out of metal or cactus's or weave it won't matter because it's the air sacs that's keeping them afloat
Ace_of_time
06-19-07, 05:16 PM I read a book one time where they had these bowl shape ship with a sail. They used reverse gravity and control weather to make the ship float in the air and blow it through the air with the wind. The ship was made of rock. It was controlled by two wizards so to speak one for the gravity and one for the wind.
Holy_Beholder
06-19-07, 07:29 PM They need boats made of a special glass that is made of special sands in the desert that is much stronger than other glasses.
Anodai
06-19-07, 07:33 PM You could get a huge fish skeleton and use the rib cage and spine it as the frame for a hide canoe (or larger canoe shaped boat).
Alltat
06-20-07, 06:40 AM Hides over a framework of large bones seems like a good solution, assuming there are fairly big animals around (elephants should be more than enough for fairly big boats). That also gives the option of having a necromancer (or whoever) build one made of human skin and bones, and it'll look perfectly normal at first glance ;)
wizardofowls
06-20-07, 06:56 AM Are there giant insects around? I would say that insect chitin would be fairly light and water proof, especially from a flying insect.
yellowdingo
06-20-07, 09:36 AM The hide and reed boats have already been mentioned.
For structure one can use bamboo or the hide can be shellaced to make it rigid.

Other possibilities: Inverted giant turtle shells; bladder rafts made from inflated animal stomachs or intestines; giant gourds grown into small boats once dried and halved.

I agree with this one. Reed bundle boats, Animal hide boats, Shells, even light ceramic boats might give you that earth elementalist twist to your civilization.
Certain ants produce a chewed glass-like fiber which deposits in the nest. If your culture wants to be unique, that fiber might be woven into cloth and sealed with a natural resin to become something like a fiberglass boat...

How about a ceremonial galley made from beaten gold which is carried across the shallow waters by a waterelemental servitor?
citizencoyote
06-21-07, 05:02 PM All of the above are good suggestions. Make sure to ask youself how prevalent magic is in your world before choosing something, though. Is it rare, like wood? Do only powerful inhabitants (i.e., the PCs) have ready access to magic? Is it relatively common, per standard DnD? Or is it so prevalent that every hovel has an everburning torch on the table and unseen servants sweeping the floors?

My suggested breakdown...

Rare/PC only: mundane materials like reeds, hides, animal bladders, etc.
Standard DnD: unusual materials like giant cacti, glass, or minor magic
Magic Heavy: harnessed elementals, self-propelled force canoes, magically produced wood, etc.

Good luck, at any rate!
Sisial
06-22-07, 01:27 PM How about the shell of the giant desert tortoise? :P
MCage
06-22-07, 03:51 PM If you have characters with craft alchemy you could use animal dung flatened out into a raft then treated with cactus juice to be made water proof to a point (make it last like a week or something)
Alltat
06-22-07, 06:27 PM If you have characters with craft alchemy you could use animal dung flatened out into a raft then treated with cactus juice to be made water proof to a point (make it last like a week or something)
If you have something to treat it with to make it waterproof, clay boats could work too. You'd ideally need a process that didn't require the entire boat to fit into an oven, and if you took in enough water your boat would eventually dissolve (unless you treated the inside as well), but that just makes fishing trips on rainy days that much more exciting ;)
NitrosDragon
06-22-07, 07:40 PM I agree with the ceramic or clay boats. It makes a bit more sense. Look at the adobe native americans. They built their fancy little houses out of mud.

They didn't get that much rain...
but it's a start, right?
ragoftag
06-22-07, 07:47 PM History channel had something on Egyptian boats last night. Reed bundle boats work and are easy to fashion and maintain. Okay, they are time intensive and eat materials, but our scout troop built a '2 man' pontoon with an outrigger in about 3 hours. with proper materials and better skills, much more could be done.
Incidentally, we did use a wooden keel and outrigger poles, but they could be replaced as above. A catamaran would be much more stable and the outrigger was a necessity, not a decoration. If you try this at home, DO NOT USE SAWGRASS!!! Trust me.
Holy_Beholder
06-23-07, 09:23 AM Reed boats, magically(well psionically) hardened. Or glass made from special desert sands psionically hardened.
BluPlague
06-27-07, 09:04 AM You can make a boat out of ANYTHING solid. The key is that it has to displace more water than its own weight. Oh, and it can't let water in.

That said, try this:
Transmute mud (sand) to stone spell combined with stone shape would allow you to make an excellent boat. You can make mud with water and sand, or just collect it from the bottom of the lake.

You might allow cone of cold to create large ice cubes that could last across the lake (mostly). I know this is a little unlikely, but it is a fantasy game and it'd be a good xp bonus for the character that thought it up.

Likewise, wall of ice on it's side could create a temporary raft.

That's all I can offer right now.
Dead_Weasel
06-27-07, 06:24 PM The problem with a metal boat is that you need a very hot fire to turn ore into metal, and historically this has been done with, you guessed it, wood. Thus, in order to get any smithing done in your desert valley, a spellcaster of some kind is pretty indispensable. Aside from magic, most metal objects will be imported.

If there were a volcano nearby, or in/under the lake itself, pumice boats would provide another option.
Ace_of_time
06-27-07, 09:32 PM There is a greater floating disk. Or maybe those leaf items that turn in to boats.
JollyRotten
06-28-07, 02:38 AM Glass
Holy_Beholder
06-28-07, 12:57 PM Glass, but you can use that one psionic power to boost Hardness and HP.
ragoftag
06-28-07, 06:19 PM Gigantic leaves! Sewn together to form the skin of a boat with a frame of bones! Naw, that would be too fantastic. Good one, Ace!
95
06-29-07, 12:50 AM actually i would think if their metal working was at the level where they were making boats out of it they were firing it with either straight up coal or with coke (which is sorta like coal's version of wood charcoal) so metal boats would be possible if some coal mines were in the region

i would think bamboo with reeds would be the most logical.... if its a lake its going to have lake vegitation on its shorline and both of those work...

think along the lines of a raft with outriggers.... reeds lashed to a bamboo frame.... bamboo mast's with sails on them....

its not going to be fast or too manuverable but its going to float and its going to let you catch some fish
pangalactic
06-29-07, 12:28 PM Thanks everybody :)

A lot of the suggestions have involved high magic solutions or have been things that would allow the PCs to construct a boat, which isn't really what I was looking for but thanks all the same. I've decided to go for the hide+reeds option, sort of like a large curragh. They were historically used for fishing and even travelling over seas, so it's not too big a stretch of the imagination to picture them on the lake.

Thanks again.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pangalactic 06-19-07, 03:38 PM	Hi there, I'm in need of a little help. My campaign is set in a large bowl-shaped desert, with a lake situated in the middle of this bowl being the main source of water and food for the inhabitants. I've already established that wood is a very rare and valuable commodity. With that in mind, I find myself with a problem. I've said that fishing is a lucrative business, and that the lake is always full of boats etc. My problem is, what materials could these boats be made from? Would the materials affect the design of the boats? If anybody can help me with this, or lead me to some resources either online or in print, I would be eternally grateful. Thanks in advance.
FlyingRoman 06-19-07, 03:45 PM	I'm not sure but a combination of special animal hides and bird bones (large ones) could work for small rafts.
Darth Syntax 06-19-07, 03:50 PM	Well, sense you have a lake, it is somewhat likely that there are reeds and grasses growing around it. A boat make out of bundles of reeds might work as would a hide boat with a woven, basket-like framework. There is also the possibility of metal boats. It is certainly possible to have such things, as we have them now, and if your people are good at metal smithing they might have gone that direction.
Paladin's Pride 06-19-07, 03:56 PM	I'm sure there are several materials you could come up with for boats. Giant cactuses could be carved out and made into boats (giant deserts have giant cactuses, right?). However, one interesting idea would be to have wood be extremely rare and still have boats made out of wood. It just makes boats extremely valuable. A person might spend years collecting enough wood to make a boat out of, but once he gets it together, he's got it made as a fisherman.
farmboy3400 06-19-07, 03:56 PM	The hide and reed boats have already been mentioned. For structure one can use bamboo or the hide can be shellaced to make it rigid. Other possibilities: Inverted giant turtle shells; bladder rafts made from inflated animal stomachs or intestines; giant gourds grown into small boats once dried and halved.
pangalactic 06-19-07, 03:57 PM	I like the idea of a basket-like frame with hide covering it. Maybe I could use wicker frames, like hot-air balloon baskets. Metal would work, and I had thought of that, but it doesn't really fit with the flavour of the world. So so far reeds and animal skin is sounding like my best option.
Darth Syntax 06-19-07, 04:02 PM	Although the coracle is made with a willow frame, it's not a bad model for a wicker-framed small boat.
deanruel 06-19-07, 04:08 PM	You could make them out of almost anything if you stated that they had air tight animal skins surrounding the frame. That way whether they're made out of metal or cactus's or weave it won't matter because it's the air sacs that's keeping them afloat
Ace_of_time 06-19-07, 05:16 PM	I read a book one time where they had these bowl shape ship with a sail. They used reverse gravity and control weather to make the ship float in the air and blow it through the air with the wind. The ship was made of rock. It was controlled by two wizards so to speak one for the gravity and one for the wind.
Holy_Beholder 06-19-07, 07:29 PM	They need boats made of a special glass that is made of special sands in the desert that is much stronger than other glasses.
Anodai 06-19-07, 07:33 PM	You could get a huge fish skeleton and use the rib cage and spine it as the frame for a hide canoe (or larger canoe shaped boat).
Alltat 06-20-07, 06:40 AM	Hides over a framework of large bones seems like a good solution, assuming there are fairly big animals around (elephants should be more than enough for fairly big boats). That also gives the option of having a necromancer (or whoever) build one made of human skin and bones, and it'll look perfectly normal at first glance ;)
wizardofowls 06-20-07, 06:56 AM	Are there giant insects around? I would say that insect chitin would be fairly light and water proof, especially from a flying insect.
yellowdingo 06-20-07, 09:36 AM	The hide and reed boats have already been mentioned. For structure one can use bamboo or the hide can be shellaced to make it rigid. Other possibilities: Inverted giant turtle shells; bladder rafts made from inflated animal stomachs or intestines; giant gourds grown into small boats once dried and halved. I agree with this one. Reed bundle boats, Animal hide boats, Shells, even light ceramic boats might give you that earth elementalist twist to your civilization. Certain ants produce a chewed glass-like fiber which deposits in the nest. If your culture wants to be unique, that fiber might be woven into cloth and sealed with a natural resin to become something like a fiberglass boat... How about a ceremonial galley made from beaten gold which is carried across the shallow waters by a waterelemental servitor?
citizencoyote 06-21-07, 05:02 PM	All of the above are good suggestions. Make sure to ask youself how prevalent magic is in your world before choosing something, though. Is it rare, like wood? Do only powerful inhabitants (i.e., the PCs) have ready access to magic? Is it relatively common, per standard DnD? Or is it so prevalent that every hovel has an everburning torch on the table and unseen servants sweeping the floors? My suggested breakdown... Rare/PC only: mundane materials like reeds, hides, animal bladders, etc. Standard DnD: unusual materials like giant cacti, glass, or minor magic Magic Heavy: harnessed elementals, self-propelled force canoes, magically produced wood, etc. Good luck, at any rate!
Sisial 06-22-07, 01:27 PM	How about the shell of the giant desert tortoise? :P
MCage 06-22-07, 03:51 PM	If you have characters with craft alchemy you could use animal dung flatened out into a raft then treated with cactus juice to be made water proof to a point (make it last like a week or something)
Alltat 06-22-07, 06:27 PM	If you have characters with craft alchemy you could use animal dung flatened out into a raft then treated with cactus juice to be made water proof to a point (make it last like a week or something) If you have something to treat it with to make it waterproof, clay boats could work too. You'd ideally need a process that didn't require the entire boat to fit into an oven, and if you took in enough water your boat would eventually dissolve (unless you treated the inside as well), but that just makes fishing trips on rainy days that much more exciting ;)
NitrosDragon 06-22-07, 07:40 PM	I agree with the ceramic or clay boats. It makes a bit more sense. Look at the adobe native americans. They built their fancy little houses out of mud. They didn't get that much rain... but it's a start, right?
ragoftag 06-22-07, 07:47 PM	History channel had something on Egyptian boats last night. Reed bundle boats work and are easy to fashion and maintain. Okay, they are time intensive and eat materials, but our scout troop built a '2 man' pontoon with an outrigger in about 3 hours. with proper materials and better skills, much more could be done. Incidentally, we did use a wooden keel and outrigger poles, but they could be replaced as above. A catamaran would be much more stable and the outrigger was a necessity, not a decoration. If you try this at home, DO NOT USE SAWGRASS!!! Trust me.
Holy_Beholder 06-23-07, 09:23 AM	Reed boats, magically(well psionically) hardened. Or glass made from special desert sands psionically hardened.
BluPlague 06-27-07, 09:04 AM	You can make a boat out of ANYTHING solid. The key is that it has to displace more water than its own weight. Oh, and it can't let water in. That said, try this: Transmute mud (sand) to stone spell combined with stone shape would allow you to make an excellent boat. You can make mud with water and sand, or just collect it from the bottom of the lake. You might allow cone of cold to create large ice cubes that could last across the lake (mostly). I know this is a little unlikely, but it is a fantasy game and it'd be a good xp bonus for the character that thought it up. Likewise, wall of ice on it's side could create a temporary raft. That's all I can offer right now.
Dead_Weasel 06-27-07, 06:24 PM	The problem with a metal boat is that you need a very hot fire to turn ore into metal, and historically this has been done with, you guessed it, wood. Thus, in order to get any smithing done in your desert valley, a spellcaster of some kind is pretty indispensable. Aside from magic, most metal objects will be imported. If there were a volcano nearby, or in/under the lake itself, pumice boats would provide another option.
Ace_of_time 06-27-07, 09:32 PM	There is a greater floating disk. Or maybe those leaf items that turn in to boats.
JollyRotten 06-28-07, 02:38 AM	Glass
Holy_Beholder 06-28-07, 12:57 PM	Glass, but you can use that one psionic power to boost Hardness and HP.
ragoftag 06-28-07, 06:19 PM	Gigantic leaves! Sewn together to form the skin of a boat with a frame of bones! Naw, that would be too fantastic. Good one, Ace!
95 06-29-07, 12:50 AM	actually i would think if their metal working was at the level where they were making boats out of it they were firing it with either straight up coal or with coke (which is sorta like coal's version of wood charcoal) so metal boats would be possible if some coal mines were in the region i would think bamboo with reeds would be the most logical.... if its a lake its going to have lake vegitation on its shorline and both of those work... think along the lines of a raft with outriggers.... reeds lashed to a bamboo frame.... bamboo mast's with sails on them.... its not going to be fast or too manuverable but its going to float and its going to let you catch some fish
pangalactic 06-29-07, 12:28 PM	Thanks everybody :) A lot of the suggestions have involved high magic solutions or have been things that would allow the PCs to construct a boat, which isn't really what I was looking for but thanks all the same. I've decided to go for the hide+reeds option, sort of like a large curragh. They were historically used for fishing and even travelling over seas, so it's not too big a stretch of the imagination to picture them on the lake. Thanks again.