Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fodigg 10-08-07, 02:41 PM	--- Basic Concept: The last city. Civilization has failed. Monsters, undead hordes, demons and devils are the only population outside of a once magestic fortress city. The previous name of the city is nearly forgotten and unimportant as useless trivia; it has been renamed "Home". --- Description: This city should stand on the edge of a the ocean, with the bulging population building out over the water rather than live outside the castle walls. There is no retreat from invading forces, and the water can be used to deliver small parties of agents of the city onto land far away from the city to avoid the enemies who wait for the gates to open. The gates of the city have been built over so that they could not open even if you tried. The walls are massive, and are built ever higher each year. Beyond these walls, the forest edge has been burned back to create as large a "killing field" as possible to prevent a hostile army from getting close unseen. All manner of war machines stand ready to repel an invading force. Less impressive walls divide the proper city from the outer city that stands over the water, and the outer city is ringed by as thick a wall as is possible to discourage a sea-based attack. Rounding out the cities defenses, strong wards and magics of all manner protect against attack. These magical barriers are strong enough to repel assaulting dragons and are in place everywhere over the city. --- Adventure Opportunities: Urban Adventure: Much of the adventure in such a campaign could and probably should happen within the walls of the city. There should be a very large population in a small space, with frequent conflicts of interest between various factions in the city. Note: this city should represental all of humanoid population as they were driven from their homes. All walks of life, all cultures, and all races should be represented. Here are some random campaign ideas focusing on the urban setting. Old hostilities are flaring in the Dwarf district. Clans that were competing for glory before are now preparing for war in the streets as tempers flare. Find out why and put an end to it. The thieve's guild is pushing a political candidate to get onto the ruling council. They're willing to do anything to get a representative in office that they can control, and are willing to pay handsomely for anyone who can help. Will you offer your services? Or will you work against their efforts? The "Docks-folk", those who live on the expanded city over the water, are getting pinched for cheap labor and only the poorest citizens of Home are forced to live there. People are getting fed up and labor unions are considering a change in tactics from strikes, to violence. How can you mediate the dispute before the city burns down around you? Somebody has discovered the impossible; a series of tunnels that lead out of the city sewers and inland. Should this tunnel be used to lead strikes out into the wilderness in an attempt to take back land? Or should it be sealed permanently to prevent invasion? An unnatural plague has sprung up that threatens to wipe out the population of the city. Entire neighborhoods are being quarantined and the source of the infection is being sought. The party receives a collective vision of Home being destroyed by invading forces, and then "return" to normal time when they have a chance to prevent this from happening (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13996841&postcount=7). Adventure Far From "Home": Often, artifacts of the old world or the potential to reestablish civilization in other locations can lead to adventurers setting out from Home and into the hostile world. A wizard, while scrying the world, has located what he believes to be an artifact of great power; a jeweled dwarf tower shield that makes a wielder impassible and impassable. Such an artifact would be extremely useful for a sentry guarding the gates of the city, should they ever be breached. Search parties are being formed to go and retrieve the shield. Word has reached the walls of Home that a devil controlled city still has a large human population, subjugated by a ruling class of Tieflings and Devils. There is talk of attempting to slip into the city in order to foment rebellion there. A small village has been discovered that managed to survive the oncoming horde under the protection of a druid circle. Their power is failing and they are under threat of being overrun. Rescue parties are being formed. Resources are growing low as there are no more active mines, and the fish/kelp supply in the surrounding harbor is dropping. A caravan is being formed to forage for food and supplies, and establish a hidden mine that can supply the city to maintain its walls and weapons. Adventure on the Sea: There have been sightings of enemy fleets on the horizon. The hodgepodge fleet that makes up Home's aquatic defense needs to seek out and engage the enemy forces before they attack. A captain of one of the few real battleships left at Home's disposal desires to attempt to cross the ocean in order to find other human/humanoid nations there to request aid. A heated debate rises up over the potential gains of such a venture vs. its perceived futility and the loss of the scooner's firepower. A patrol ship fell under attack and was run aground on a hostile island. The survivors must be rescued and the ship salvaged if possible. A group of the smaller fishing vessels have founded a port on a nearby island for trade, black market trading, and general carnal delights that the city guard would frown upon. How long will the council ignore this activity, and how long can the small "village" survive before disaster finds it? And will the city offer help when it does? --- Pre-existing cities that work for this concept: Any major metropolis on the water could work for this concept. Here is a short list of well-known cities that work: Eberron Sharn Forgotten Realms Neverwinter Waterdeep Luskan If you have any more cities that would work for this concept, please post them or PM them to me so that I can add them to this list. All settings would be welcome. --- Added 10-26: Okay, here are (finally) the lists of example NPC personalities to populate Home. I'm not including stats because these are social peronalities and not thugs (if you want one as a BBEG, you'll probably want to stat him/her up yourselves anyway), so you will probably never even need them to have stats. Also, these are only examples. I honestly doubt that anyone would use these unedited. I'm not even sure I would use exactly these NPCs in a "Bastion" campaign. On to the example NPCs... City Council Lord Griffon DeMonte, Human male - Royal District/Council Head Griffon is the decendant of the original lord of Home and the famous General who led the human forces in the great war before retreating back to Home and building up the walls. While council seats are by ballot appointment only (theoretically), the Royal district has always chosen one of the Lord's decendants as their representative. However, there are many persons in the Royal District with claims to "Lordly" blood, so this is hardly an assurance that Griffon will stay in power. DeMonte came into power largely by glad handing and putting on a show of regality and "pride in Home" that appealed to the residents in the R.D. To continue the appearance of regality, Griffon will frequently wear military attire, complete with ceremonial armor and weapon, even though he has never trained for combat. DeMonte is generally a good person. He doesn't want to see Home fall (obviously) and doesn't have many political aspirations beyond staying on as the head of the council. He usually isn't smart enough to come up with a plan of action (that will improve Home) on his own, but he doesn't have any dastardly designs either. DeMonte, because he has no real agendas, tends to waffle when it comes time to make a decision. He doesn't want to lose his position or make a real error that costs Home, so he tends to bog down progress trying to get everyone to agree on one course of action instead of simply declaring a matter settled. Instead of being decisive, he calls another meeting. In attempt to appear decisive, he will often make strong stands on odd issues that few persons really care about. Deucal Rockhoof, Dwarf male - Industry District Deucal knows that Home has problems, but he doesn't care. He doesn't have a real population in his district, he has laborers. He cares about getting work done and making "the trains run on time" (there are no trains, but you get my meaning). Deucal's one priority is to make sure that production continues in his tiny district. He wants new resources for the forges, new material to build up the walls, and ways to fix the ships and arm the guards. If Deucal thinks that somebody is getting in the way of these aims, or simply being "unhelpful", then they are weak, soft, "whiners" and he doesn't want to hear it. One aspect of his job that he truly hates is managing the roof-top agriculture farms that are scattered across Home. He doesn't like leaving his district, and he thinks the farmers are all lazy. He calls them "garden bums". Greta Sweetlily, Halfling female - Market District Greta has landed the lucky position of leading the Market District; the upper-middle-class of Home. While the market district was originally only equipped for commerce, it has since been rebuilt as a second housing district for the bulging Home populace. The Market district is roomier and cleaner than other parts of the city, and closer to the marketplace, to taverns, and to the entertainment centers of Home than even the Royal District. Greta's main priority is to live the good life, protect those who keep her in power, and rake in money and other resources to fund Home (and provide herself with personal comforts). She is corrupt, not above bribery, and has connections to the Syndicate. She often watches out for their interests. Greta has turned a blind eye to the unofficial "red light district" that the syndicate runs in the Market District, and protects them from raids by the city guard by training and hiring her own "Market Security" force to patrol the Market District instead. Her argument is that she wants to protect the commerce center of Home, but she really just wants control. Joss Kerasotes, Gnome male - Housing District One word that describes Joss is "nervous". Joss is in charge of the cramped, but livable Housing District. While others in Home might have it a bit better, Joss is more focused on how much his district has to lose. Joss doesn't like things to mess with the status quo. As things are now, the people feel (relatively) safe, (most) people in his district have work, and there's enough elbow space that there aren't riots (yet). Anything that threatens the status quo gives Joss fits. Joss tends to admire how Griffon goes about managing the council and is more than eager to follow his lead, especially when that means more meetings and red tape. One more worry for poor Joss is that the criminal Syndicate is looking to have him replaced. Now that they have one council member in their pocket (Greta), they want more. With a district election coming up, Joss is really ramping up his "He Keeps You Satisfied" campaign. Silvia Fletcher, Human female - Dock District Silvia is a middle-aged laborer who has lived her entire life on the Docks. She has witnessed the Dock District change from a new, open living space (the first real expansion in Home's history since the war) to an over-crowded slum that's rotting around them. The lucky ones have work, but many do not. Silvia despises the other members of the council, with the exception of possibly Deucal (although she wishes he would hire more workers). The lack of action and constant debate of the council infuriates her, and she's well aware that her district is growing restless. Other than dealing with the council, Silvia has to manage her own district, calming them even as she wants to go on a killing spree herself. She's sensible enough to know that striking is not an option, as the Home fleet needs constant repair and Home in general can't afford to a breakdown in production of basic supplies from the fishing industry. Any strike would put them all in danger. So, she assures her people that she's making the council listen, and then works herself into a rabid frenzy every council meeting trying to get them to listen to reason. Unfortunately, her small victories in the council are hardly enough to calm her populace, which is very near rioting. Sylvia does her best to keep revolutionaries in check, but it seems like a new voice is calling for violence each day. Roz Firsthammer, Dwarf female - Tunnel District Roz leads the small population of dwarves that dig the tunnels under Home. They run the mushroom farms, raise the animals that can live underground, and brew traditional dwarven ale. Like her district, Roz is often overlooked. She doesn't help herself stand out by keeping stoically quiet during meetings, and only speaks up to report that things are well in the tunnels. Firsthammer views the tunnels as her own little city, and has no intention of going out of her way to help the greater Home populace. The dwarves of the Tunnel District are with her in this mentaility. Unknown to the other council members, the dwarves have made perpartions to seal off the Tunnel District should the walls ever be breached. A secret escape tunnel is constantly under construction leading in-land, and the plan is, should Home ever be overrun, to seal off the Tunnel District (and seal out the greater Home populace) and use the time that Home is being pillaged to dig an exit for the escape tunnel before collapsing the entire Tunnel District. Defense Council General Dugan MacLeod, Human male - Army/Guard General MacLeod is charged with the many tasks of keeping the streets safe with the city guard, keeping the walls in good condition and patroled by a standing military force, keeping the barracks in working condition, and keeping all troops armed and trained when most of the military forces have had to find other primary occupations. MacLeod has instituted a rotating schedule of "wall duty" to all army troops to make sure that the "militia" members of the army stay in practice. He keeps his best soldiers in command of wall forces and patroling the streets as members of the Guard. Dugan's first priority is the defense of home. While the concerns of the guard take up more of his time, he mainly wants an army capable of beating back the enemy hordes. While he officially does not support expansion, he privately dreams of leading a full-fledged, standing army out of the gates of Home. Something he has not seen in his lifetime. Dugan will often fund "scouting missions" to locate potential threats before they reach the walls of Home, but also to look for any lull in attacks so that he can consider making his dream a reality. Dugan has a bitter hatred of Greta Sweetlily, and by extension the criminal Syndicate. He sees her formation of the Market Security force as an affront to his station and to "justice". He is doubly annoyed by her meddling because he would much rather be managing his army instead of dealing guard issues, such as her interference. Should any of Dugan's troops or guardsmen be caught taking bribes or otherwise being corrupt, they are immediately removed from their post and put on Dugan's personal "black list" to be watched and hassled to keep their nose clean. If Dugan had his way, they'd be sent over the wall...via catapult. Dugan is not a forgiving man. Commodore Alexander Hayes, Human male - Naval Forces Hayes is well aware that his fleet, which is as much his sailors' homes as their work, depends on the council to stay afloat. He might be frustrated by the council's games at times, but he is careful to remain polite and civil. He doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds his people. He takes his job seriously, and he is talented at his craft. His captains are some of the best he could possibly have, spending their whole lives on the water, practicing, patroling, and producing incredible victories over larger enemy forces. He is also responsible for keeping the fishing fleets safe and productive. He does his job well, and for that he is well liked by his men, and nearly all the populace of Home. It isn't uncommon for disgruntled citizens of other districts to ask Hayes to take a more active position in the city council, but Hayes refuses to give up his ship and his post. The Commodore protects his people, above all else. This includes his sailors, the fishermen, the dock workers, and anyone else who keeps his fleet afloat. As far as he's concerned, his people are each worth ten of the "grounders". When a dispute arises between drunken sailors and a crowded tavern, Hayes will personally resolve the issue, pay for damages, and get his people out of hock. Oftentimes without even questioning his men. Hayes is a god to his people. Most refer to him as "Papa Lex", which Hayes finds to be slightly inappropriate, but rather endearing. Hayes has a better concept than most Home citizens what the world is like outside the city walls. Despite the dangers, he wants to take a chance at exploration by sea. He has quietly begun gathering support for such an endeavor, but knows that the biggest obstacle will be getting enough of his ships in working order, and gathering enough supplies to stock the ship chosen to explore, to actually make it a reality. If someone can help this process along, especially if they're willing to take up the sailing life, they would become one of "Papa Lex's" favored chosen, and would gain the benefits that entails. Headmaster Rialla Mariola, Elf female - Magical Defenses Rialla is tasked with managing the magical defenses of Home, but really couldn't care less about the council. She serves her own desires and her own ends, and what she desires most is power. Rialla spends most of her resources scrying for powerful magical artifacts in the wider world and funds expeditions to retrieve them so that they might be studied. She entertains hopes of becoming a major player in the world scale, and ruling over powerful forces to do her bidding. These plans don't necessarily include Home if she should find a better means to this end. Rialla makes no effort to hide her contempt for the other members of the council. She frequently refuses summons as she feels she has more important work to attend to. She is well entrenched in Home's College Arcane, and has either the support of or control over other prominent members of the college. She knows that there are none who could challenge her position, so she doesn't bother with pretenses of politeness. The cold-hearted Headmaster has discovered that the mythal that has protected home for untold centuries is failing. The magic is beginning to unravel and will not last for much longer. Rather than turning to the council, Rialla is more concerned with turning the situation to her advantage. Therefore she has not informed them of the state of the mythal. Rialla knows that it will take the sacrifice of a powerful magical artifact to restore the mythal, and has been seeking one via scrying and hired mercenaries. However, she is unsure if she should actually recharge the mythal. After all, if an object can be found that is powerful enough to restore the protective magic, perhaps such power could be put to more meaningful purposes. Like driving her own rise to power. Mother Abigal, Human female - Temple/Sanitation Mother Abigal is the head priestess of the temple (Housing District), and is a cleric of the deity the temple was originally built for (can be whatever god you wish). Her responsibilities are to maintain the health of the populace, both physcially and by keeping up morale. Unfortunately, Abigal cares more about increasing the prominence of her chosen deity (and by extension herself) than the well being of the populace. She wants to convert the masses, move the other shrines out of her temple, and generally show the world how wonderful and pious she is. She also wants to maintain her rather comfortable lifestyle as head priestess and member of the council. Mother Abigal is not well-liked by many other priests/priestesses, including those in her own faith. Criminal Syndicate NPCs Joana Ketch, Human female - Syndicate Leader Joana is a close associate of council member Greta, and runs her own private "red-light district" within the Market District. She keeps Greta in power and pays out bribes to her and her Market Security guardsmen. Joana sees herself as the true power in Home, and has a hand in all "extra-legal" activities that take place. Her current "projects" are to gain another "bought" member of the council via the upcoming Housing District elections and to firmly establish a second "entertainment" district on a nearby island for the sailors and fishermen. So far, both campaigns are going well. Ketch personally manages her Tavern/Brothel, and lives in a very luxurious flat that spans an entire floor of the building. She has a love of fine things, fine wine, and fine company (of all varieties). Ketch is rather young for her level of power (early 30s), making her accomplishments all the more impressive. Before her rise to power, there were multiple "thieve's guilds" that operated independantly. Now all guilds answer to her, and to the Syndicate. Dolf Brogerson, Dwarf male - Syndicate Candidate Dolf was originally a citizen of the Tunnel District, but fell out of favor from having too many Syndicate ties, and was effectively banned from the district. He has since become adept at glad handing, and has become the face man for the Syndicate in his bid for election in the Housing District. Dolf has promised better living conditions, and better pay. With Joss constantly repeating his useless message of "Everything is good! Don't rock the boat!", it will be a wonder if Dolf doesn't win the next election. Or at least, that Joss will lose it to him. Dolf doesn't have any real power, but he knows people, and he's greedy. He is far from above taking bribes when he sees a profit in it. Just as long as the Syndicate bribes come first, this practice of his won't be questioned. Quintus Janelle, Elf male - Syndicate Assassin Quintus is not a common thug or enforcer. He will not be the one who confronts you in an ally or engages in a masterful display of swordsmanship with a heroic do-gooder. Quintus is the one who will poison your wine, slit your throat when you're asleep, or shoot you down from a distance with a single shot. Quintus only strikes to kill, and never in a way that you'll see him coming. That's what makes him so terrifying. Between jobs, Quintus lounges in Joana Ketch's brothel, drinking fine wines and enjoying the company of various wenches. He will avoid any direct confrontation, but will never forget an insult, and will usually reply to any affront with a dagger in the kidney when it is least expected. Quintus is a simple elf with a dangerous reputation. He is not to be trifled with, at least not unless you plan to make sure he's dead the first time you face him. Misc. Meaningful NPCs Lt. Suriel Cooper, Half-elf male - Barracks liason Cooper is the official outfitter of mercenaries and contact person for scouting missions both official and unofficial. Surel has been approached by Syndicate envoys and felt out for being "bought", but he replied that he simply "does not give a damn" what went on once somebody left his office or who needed to leave Home and why. His job is to make sure those persons get an official stamp from somewhere, get outfitted to do the job they need to do, and that the right mercenaries get assigned to jobs they can handle. No more, no less. The Syndicate was satisfied with his answer, and he has been officially declared "hands off". Cooper may not be overly principled, but he is generally good natured. He enjoys a good joke and a tall pint of ale. He won't give a job to an adventurer that he doesn't think is up to the task. He is generally a good guy. Lil' Jimmy, Halfling male - Skiff Owner/Captain "LJ" is the owner of a small fishing Skiff that often takes on work for Cooper doing the risky job of dropping troops of along the shore and then picking them back up when they're ready to return. He is far from the only ship owner to do this (it's a good way to make some quick money), but he is especially well-liked and known for being speedy in his work. LJ is, simply put, a terrible fisherman. The work bores him, and if he hadn't inherited his skiff, dubbed the Freespinner, from his father, he probably would have chosen another line of work. But he enjoys the thrill and danger that comes from working with the mercenaries and landing on the shore. His only other crew is his sometimes-girlfriend Sarah (halfling female), who is probably the only one in Home who calls him "Jim". When he's not working, LJ has taken to visiting the "fishing village" run by the Syndicate on a nearby island. LJ and Sarah are usually fine drinking partners and good natured. Paal Baker, Half-orc male - Revolutionary Baker is an out-of-work docksman with a bad temper. His entire life he has been ****** on, even by the other docksmen. Sick of his lot in life, Baker began very publically calling for violent revolution in home. Surprisingly (at least, to him), his calls were answered quite vigorously. Persons who barely noticed him before now talk to him with respect, and he is held up as a visionary among the docks-folk. Someone who won't lie down and take what was given to him, but wanted more. Drunk with his new popularity (and often the free drinks such popularity buys him) Paal is really getting into the spirit of being a revolutionary. He's stirring up the docks-folk and has even begun leading them in short clashes against the city guards. Whether he realizes it or not, Paal is gearing the docks up for an all out war with the other districts. Silvia Fletcher is doing her best to keep the populace in order, but Baker isn't making it easy. Paal is decended from one of the few persons of monstrous blood that was allowed in Home when the gates were sealed. There are even fewer now after generations of breeding with the mostly human populace, thinning the orc blood even more. He takes any mention of his heritage personally. Major World Villains Archduke Malebonte, Tiefling male - Devilish Cities The Archduke is the voice of the Devil overlords and chief administrator of the small Devil kingdom that has developed to the far north-east of Home. Malebronte, while he has no power over what the Devils choose to do to entertain themselves, has a surprising amount of influence on policies in the hellish kingdom and over the generals under his command. He knows better than to act above his station, and has no real desire to challenge his overlords, but is vicious when dealing with underlings, and eager to expand his influence. To the Archduke, Home is next to meaningless. He wants all local monstrous tribes under his control, and the Lich king to the Southeast finally under heel. Home only comes up to him when a monstrous general decides that they want to break ranks attack the last city. He finds this annoying, but knows they will most likely return battered but still willing to serve. Only if one of his underlings should be successful in capturing Home would he then take a real interest in it. He would want to crush the upstart general before he could threaten the Archduke's order. Chief Gruumar, Orc male - Renegade Monstrous Army Sick of Malebronte's influence, Gruumar gathered his supporters (which were vast and of varying races) and simply left the battlefields where he had been fighting the undead horde. Promising glory and a new land free from overlords, Gruumar led his forces right up to the mountain roost of a most fearsome red dragon, and destroyed the beast in an epic battle. Splitting the hoard of gems and jewels with his underlings, Gruumar took the bulk of the wealth and invested it in converting the mountain into a defensible fort and city. Gruumar and his followers live off the land, plunder from passing Devil and Undead warbands, and generally want nothing to do with anyone else. His popularity, grown from slaying the red dragon, is often enough to influence other monstrous warbands to join his cause. Home, to Gruumar, is just one more potential "overlord" not to be trusted. Lord Viengesh, Undead Lich (formely male) - Undead Horde Lord Viengesh has gone somewhat insane. When, many generations ago, he first began his campaign against the goodly races, he sought new magics and hidden knowledge that would grant him great power. But, after years of immersing his will in controlling the massive undead armies under his command, his singular purpose has become conquest for the sake of conquest. The world is broken, and he has chosen to remake it in eternal, undead perfection. Nothing else mattes, and nothing will distract him from this goal. Viengesh sits upon his great throne, made entirely from the bones of his enemies, guiding his mindless horde with the sheer force of his will. The only intelligent underlings in his employ are his vampire and death knight generals and none dare challenge his awesome power. He wants nothing less than to bring about the end of all things. He can't remember why, but he has no use for doubts, especially as he is now so very close to victory. The destruction of Home would finally put an end to his original campaign, and fuel his forces with enough magical artifacts and corpses to put an end to the Devilish invaders. Added 12-01 Here is my badly drawn map: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/dynamego/HmeEL.gif Obviously, that's a rough area map. Lines wouldn't be so smooth, streets wouldn't be very orderly, and important buildings and locations would be scattered all over the place. And, with all things, this is only an example. Not shown on that map: The barracks, which is the center of the guard/military would be located at the gates of the city, on the far eastern side (the right side of the map). The Ship berths would be on the extreme west part of the docks district (far left on the map) and just outside the city walls. The Syndicate headquarters would be somewhere within the Red light district There would obviously be more than 3 access points between the docks and the city, but these would be the general locations of the well known/major ones. Guards would be posted at these to regulate traffic. The college arcane would be within the Royal district.
Return of the Flumph 10-08-07, 02:50 PM	Wow. This is one of the best campaign concepts I've seen on these boards. Talk about "Points of Light." I can imagine how the campaign would go. The PC's start out doing urban adventures (diseases, theives' guilds, etc). When the get to mid level, they start taking an active role in Home's defenses (the sewer tunnels, the quest for the shield, etc). Finally, once they get very powerful, they can spearhead a crusade to take back the rest of the world. I can think of so many possibilities for this world right off the bat. To put it bluntly: moar plz!!
taradusis 10-08-07, 03:10 PM	The major problem I can see is food supply,most D+D worlds require a lot of manpower to be invested in food production.The land requirements for agriculture can be pretty high too.
fodigg 10-08-07, 03:37 PM	Wow. This is one of the best campaign concepts I've seen on these boards. Talk about "Points of Light." Thanks! I'll see if I can expand on it later. The major problem I can see is food supply,most D+D worlds require a lot of manpower to be invested in food production.The land requirements for agriculture can be pretty high too. I would think that the residents would be eating a lot of fish, kelp, and summoned dire bear meat. Meanwhile any brave adventuring party could become rich off of foraging in the wild. I think that's an interesting opportunity to present players.
Return of the Flumph 10-08-07, 05:17 PM	For the food problem. 1. Assuming that lots of different races are crammed inside of Home, maybe there is one or more aquatic races (sea elves, merfolk, locathah) that live under the docks, within the confines of the sea wall. They can help with the kelp and seafood farming. 2. Since there is already a cleared "kill zone" surrounding the city, it makes sense to farm there. The killzone should be striped with several rows of smaller, wooden walls or barbed wire fences to give the farmers time to run back into the city should attackers appear. Probably guard towers as well, each tower having a barrel of compressed oil or alchemist's fire so it can self destruct if it looks like the tower is about to be taken over by the enemy. 3. Since there are probably dwarves in this city, underground agriculture might be important. Dwarves have been farming in rocky and cave-like environments for centuries, if not millenia. I'd imagine they would have vast underground fields beneath Home, with mirrored skylights or magic items to provide sunlight.
Delfedd 10-08-07, 05:34 PM	3. Since there are probably dwarves in this city, underground agriculture might be important. Dwarves have been farming in rocky and cave-like environments for centuries, if not millenia. I'd imagine they would have vast underground fields beneath Home, with mirrored skylights or magic items to provide sunlight. Also, mushrooms.
Return of the Flumph 10-08-07, 05:53 PM	Also, mushrooms. That goes without saying. Also, seeing as you outright provoked this: "BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER MUSHROOM! MUSHROOM!"
taradusis 10-08-07, 06:18 PM	A civilisation that cannot farm in peace may not last long,this may have been what finished off the Mayans.Trying to farm while subject to constant raids is increasingly difficult,captured farmers may be magically brainwashed and returned as double agents.Dwarves and sea elves can subsist the way they do because of little population growth.How do you feed a city that doubles in size every ten years?A city that cannot trade does not thrive economically.RANDOM THOUGHTS
Return of the Flumph 10-08-07, 06:40 PM	A civilisation that cannot farm in peace may not last long,this may have been what finished off the Mayans.Trying to farm while subject to constant raids is increasingly difficult,captured farmers may be magically brainwashed and returned as double agents.Dwarves and sea elves can subsist the way they do because of little population growth.How do you feed a city that doubles in size every ten years?A city that cannot trade does not thrive economically.RANDOM THOUGHTS That is what motivates the PC's. In ten years, there will not be enough food to support the city's ever-growing population. Thus, they need to conquer more land for urban and agricultural development, and FAST. By the way, could you kindly stop ending every one of your posts with "random thoughts?" Its getting really annoying.
Sliversun 10-09-07, 12:15 AM	Looks good. Please do more! Just some questions: 1) How large is Home? 2) What kind of government does it have? 3) What races live in the city? 4) What religions does the city have? 5) Where do the people get their resources from?
fodigg 10-09-07, 12:58 PM	That is what motivates the PC's. In ten years, there will not be enough food to support the city's ever-growing population. Thus, they need to conquer more land for urban and agricultural development, and FAST. This is how I saw it. The food situation should be a problem. Home is not a cozy getaway that will stand the test of time. Home is all of the great civilizations literally standing on the edge of the world, trying to stave off destruction. I imagine that much of a campaign in this setting would be about successfully improving conditions in Home and expanding society out of Home. Epic play would involve taking back land from the hordes. Looks good. Please do more! Thanks! I'll see if I can tackle these questions for you: 1) How large is Home? This question doesn't really have a concrete answer, at least not yet. The reason for that was I that I wanted "Home" to be a sort of city template in case somebody wanted to use that template on any sea-side metropolis in other settings. Home as Sharn (Eberron) for example would be very different from Home as Neverwinter (Forgotten Realms). This would affect not only size, but the structure of the city as well. For example, Sharn is a multi-level vertical mega-metropolis that sits on top of a giant cliff. I imagine that a "Home" version of Sharn would be largely rubble on the upper levels as the floating section of the city collapsed, crushed the cityscape below, and slid off the cliff. (You wouldn't have to do this, but Sharn is so big, that I don't know how else to say that people would have to be moved out over the water otherwise.) The "Docks" section of a Sharn "Home" would be suspended over the cliff, and far from the water below. Finally, the catacombs of Sharn are practically another city below it, and would have far greater worry of invasion from below. None of these unique city features are features that I would expect from an abstract version of "Home" built from scratch. From scratch, I see the walls of Home being very, very tall, but the buildings wouldn't necessarily have a "skyscraper" feel to them. Expansion would come with the docks half of the city which is suspended by wooden and stone pillars that go down into the bay. As others have pointed out, goodly acquatic races might live below these docks and Dwarves would certainly be digging down below the city. I like the idea of massive dwarf barracks and mushroom farms below the city. So...the actual question of size: Geographically, I'm not sure. I'll have to look up some city sizes. Population-wise, Waterdeep (the largest city in FR) is said to have approximately 130,000 souls living in the city itself, and Sharn (the biggest city I know in any setting) is said to have "some 212,000 souls". (got those numbers from wiki entries) Assuming that the docks portion of the city is rather large and cramped, that dwarfs have burrowed deep enough to allow for some underground living, that all workable fishing and defense ships are doubling as barracks, and that all the surrounding lands have packed themselves into this last fortress, I would go so far as to suggest that about 180,000 individuals are crammed into this metropolis. Far, far too many to expect any kind of breathing room, and only the extremely wealthy would have reasonable living space. People in Home live on the streets because there's nowhere else to go. Sanitation should be a large concern as any waste running into the sea could potentially harm their primary food supply. If somebody could provide context for my random guess, suggest a number they feel more appropriate either realistically or thematically (realism? what's that?), then I'd be open to those suggestions. Also, if anyone knows the measure of land that a city like Waterdeep or Sharn would sit upon, I'd love to hear it. 2) What kind of government does it have? I mentioned in the OP that it was ruled by a council, and I like the idea of that. Cooperation under cramped circumstances is so much harder, so I feel like there are great opportunities for intrigue and political (and literal) assassinations going on. I do see Home as originally a human-built city, but I would think that each of the major racial populations would have entered home led by a general if not a king of their people as they retreated. At first, a council of these world leaders would make up the governing council of Home, with the human lord at the head of the council. Over time, various political factions, broken up by neighborhood, would vote in representation from whatever races populate their section of the city. What those sections of the city are, I'm not sure, I'll have to expand on the idea a bit before I can label them all and thereby come up with a headcount for the council. Some obvious ones: Docks Fleet (Fishing and Defense ships) Dwarf Tunnels "social elite" city quarter (I would think largely human, and traditionally the ruling member of the council) "business" city quarter the remaining quarters would be population containers with their own themes etc From just that list, we can probably cap the council at 7 members, which is a pretty impressive size for a council. I only leave it open ended in case I change something or realize that I forgot something. I'll probably expand on this later with an "example" council, as I already have some ideas for what the representation would be like. 3) What races live in the city? This is largely setting specific and DM preference specific. For example, in Eberron, you would see Warforged, Changlings, Shifters, and probably some monstrous races like orcs and goblins that would normally be subjugated into the service of devils in this setting. Assuming that DMs will add or subtract to this list as appropriate for their campaign, I would say the heavily represented races would be: Human Dwarf Elf (wild elves?) Eladrin (sun elves?) Halfling (or Hin, or Kender or whatever) Gnome The few sea elves who live under the docks would be sympathetic to Home's cause (as they could live other places in the sea if they wished), and a smattering of other races such as Half-orc might make an appearance, but I see these as the races who are best represented. I intentionally left Tiefling off, as I see Tieflings having a large representation in the Devil-conquered lands. 4) What religions does the city have? Again, setting specific, but I'm fond of a 'meta-temple' in the middle of the city that was formerly a shrine to the patron god/goddess of the city, and has been converted to the worship of all goodly gods that are approved by the council. This could, of course, lead to some hostile preaching and counter-preaching, but space is at a premium in Home, so they're not about to dedicate space to extra temples. Smaller shrines to specific deities (or hidden shrines to dark/unapproved deities) might find places in other sections of the city as appropriate. 5) Where do the people get their resources from? Food has kind of been covered. Stone and metal have been taken from the immediate area and from the digging of the dwarves beneath the city, but those resources are now tapped out and these are now highly desired resources. Water would come from rain, filtered sea water, or water from the temple that comes from an underground river and is blessed, cared for by the clerics of the original temple deity. I don't see this as extremely scarce, but a drought or enemies poisoning the river might be an interesting part of a campaign. Lumber can be chopped from nearby forests along the coast or on nearby islands and dragged back to the docks by ship. Weapons and Armor could be made at the barracks situated at the front gate of the city. It would make sense that a forge would be available to the soldiers of Home so that they could fix weapons, and I would think that expert crafters from all races would be allowed to use that forge for approved purposes. Booze can be brewed in all forms by various races. Dwarves could make ale from the crops they grow underground, beer and spirits could be made from various crop grown on nearby islands, etc. Other niceties like sugar would be scarce, but it's possible through small scale agriculture or through conjuration that a supply could be available Did I miss any important resources? --- Phew! Good questions. I'm worried about answering any of them too finally because I really saw this as a campaign concept that could be applied to any setting, and not a setting all in itself. I think a Dark Sun campaign with this concept could be very interesting, even in the middle of the desert as opposed to up against the sea. Any more comments, questions, or suggestions would be very welcome, please keep them coming!
GoriceXII 10-09-07, 02:49 PM	You might also consider doing a small region. This gives the area something to fight over. For instance there might be a farming region, but it might have to be constantly defended from fortifications. There might be constant raids into it by horrible monsters. If you prefer a single city state this doesn't remove the possibility of farmland, a bay or stretch of coastline where fishing can be done. Is your council government hereditary, meritocratic or made up of different elements? Could pcs ultimately end up on it or at least advising it? Is it the normal form of government or did it evolve due to the war? What kind of military forces are available, and what do they most commonly deal with?
Sigfried 10-10-07, 01:53 AM	Love this campaign idea. Well done. I ran a similar game once. Druids, angry at the degradation of nature, turned nature against the civilized nations. So great was their power, that they drove civilized folk into a few mega-cities scattered around the world. Some of the more interesting adventures involved traveling to these other cities to see what was going on. (The druids had been interfering with teleportation and magical communication for centuries). Have you considered a similar set up, where there are a few bastions left?
fodigg 10-10-07, 11:29 AM	You might also consider doing a small region. This gives the area something to fight over. For instance there might be a farming region, but it might have to be constantly defended from fortifications. There might be constant raids into it by horrible monsters. If you prefer a single city state this doesn't remove the possibility of farmland, a bay or stretch of coastline where fishing can be done. I want the low level characters to establish these farms and settlements before having to defend them. Home should basically be the party's keep even though they don't own it. They should rise through the ranks until they are making decisions for the entire society. But that starts with "Hey you, go help them establish this hidden mine nearby because we're out of metal." and goes through, "hey you, that mine you established kind of dug too greedily, and too deep. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/10/10) Please save them." Before it gets to the point where they are the ones pushing back the horde. Players will care more about these satellite settlements if they are the ones who established them. Is your council government hereditary, meritocratic or made up of different elements? Could pcs ultimately end up on it or at least advising it? Is it the normal form of government or did it evolve due to the war? I feel pretty strongly that it should be a representative democracy. Not because I think that such a government is better, but because I feel like there is more chance for the players to be involved with such a setup. A monarch or an oligarchy would just give orders and they would be followed. With a more democratic option, the players can work one representative off of another, and eventually end up sitting on the council or even ruling the council if they so choose. What kind of military forces are available, and what do they most commonly deal with? The "City Guard" is more of a standing army that has disbanded. A number of them work the walls in shifts, and patrol the city to keep order, but a large portion of what were soldiers either have other jobs that are their primary job, or simply found another profession. The walls defend, and the army does not march out of the gates. There should be one "General" that leads the hodgepodge city guard/militia/army of Home. There should also be the council member who leads the "fleet" of fishing ships and warships that patrol the surrounding bay. Each captain of the surviving warships should have a military "voice" when dealing with the council, but ultimately have power only over their own ships and own crews. Once the players give the army a reason to march, I'm sure they'll find a large group of willing and able recruits of all the major races who want to get back to being soldiers and get out of Home! Love this campaign idea. Well done. Thanks! Have you considered a similar set up, where there are a few bastions left? I think that one of the biggest reveals a DM could pull on a party playing with this campaign idea is that they suddenly discover a second bastion. On the other side of the continent. Maybe this other society can help them? Maybe it's going to compete with them, but at least, if the other bastion wins, society continues (Think the Foundation series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundation_Series))? Or maybe this other bastion of survivors are evil and will seek to destroy your bastion (think The Stand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stand))? As the players explore the wilderness, I expect that they will find some survivors living off the land or living in secret, and it's possible that these persons might have rumors of a second "bastion" city where society and historical records are still intact. This should be entirely in the hands of the DM however, and I think it's far more meaningful for the players if they don't know about the second bastion until the DM reveals it.
SoDak 10-10-07, 01:29 PM	I think in this campaign there would be constant rumours of a second bastion or hidden villiage or island citadel or something else next week. Also, wouldn't the seas be full of aquatic fiends and monsters? (Myrmyxicus and Sahuagin) I'd say the aquatic humanoids in the bay are there for the same reason as their land-bound cousins. Any aquatic resources would be just as threatened as other mines/farmland. Lastly, with all the disruption wouldn't there be a real difference between what is remembered about the outside world by the long-lived races and the majority humans? Would-be foragers will probably spend a lot of time chatting up elven codgers and old-lady dwarves. What do you think?
fodigg 10-10-07, 02:14 PM	I think in this campaign there would be constant rumours of a second bastion or hidden villiage or island citadel or something else next week. It would be a major driving force: "We can't possibly be the only city left." I'd love to show a new city for the players to find, and then have them watch as it's overrun and destroyed. But I'm a terrible human being, and a malicious DM. (not really, but I strive to be.) Also, wouldn't the seas be full of aquatic fiends and monsters? (Myrmyxicus and Sahuagin) I'd say the aquatic humanoids in the bay are there for the same reason as their land-bound cousins. Any aquatic resources would be just as threatened as other mines/farmland. This would be possible (and I think probable), but I don't want it to turn into an acquatic campaign. The sea at the back of Home is supposed to be the rock while the rest of the world is the hard place. I don't want it to be too accessible. I wouldn't want to have a large population of Home that just hangs out in the water, or very much invasion by acquatic monsters. I want the ocean to be a barrier because the population can't just swim off. Because there aren't enough ships to take everybody. Because if one of the larger ships leaves, where would it go? and how would home defend itself against enemy fleets? Lastly, with all the disruption wouldn't there be a real difference between what is remembered about the outside world by the long-lived races and the majority humans? Would-be foragers will probably spend a lot of time chatting up elven codgers and old-lady dwarves. I'm not sure what you're asking, but any person that leaves home and then returns would certainly be accosted by various citizens both powerful and mundane for information about the world beyond the walls. Anyone they encounter on the outside world most likely be uncultured and wouldn't really understand the concept of "towns" and "nations" only from stories they heard from their parents. Adventurers might come across a family in a cave that has a small garden out front, but not a farm or a real village.
Tovec 10-18-07, 11:13 PM	I like where this is going. They are the last city of civilization in the whole world/galaxy+? Who are they they fighting off? Also make sure to clarify the details on the anti-magic zones in the city, its not very clear and can be worked around too easily. Also what stops someone from teleporting into the city, worse yet plane shifting or gating? Would this stop people from teleporting out? How does the guard defend the wall? Shooting arrows and throwing spears at the invaders? I don't think food is an issue, sea food and underground from dwarves, are only a couple of the options. In a super-metropolis like this city there could be in city greenhouses devoted to feeding the masses. Also the fact that I assume magic still works and considering it does there are several spells that create food and work on large numbers. I'll be checking in, this is great material.
Return of the Flumph 10-19-07, 12:15 AM	So yeah, as the above poster is asking, who are the main baddies in the setting?
fodigg 10-19-07, 01:05 AM	Hmm... I definitely didn't picture it as just one group opposing them. There should be varying evil forces in this world fighting over who gets the biggest slice of what used to be civilization. When I think of how the D&D world is likely to end, my immediate thoughts go to: Invading Devils (demons too I guess, but devils are more the "take over" type and demons more the "burn it all" type) Undead legions (probably led by a powerful lich, vampire king, or death knight) Monstrous races The first two I see as fixated empires in the world. There would be actual areas that they control that span large parts of the world, with new civilizations in their image. The last I see more as including various tribes and warbands that look around at the world without the common races and realize they're still getting the short end of the stick. Yeah they have more room to spread out. But so does every other band of hill giants, or orcs, or hobgoblins. And now there's far fewer innocent villagers to murder and loot. Far less victims mean lean times for those on the bottom. I wouldn't want these bands to be overly organized, but definitely a few orc or goblin kings should make their play at being the big fish in their little pond. These tribes should be fighting each other as much as they're on the look out for the rare and tasty human survivor camp. However...I do like the idea of an Orc (or other monstrous humanoid) "general" that, sick of fighting an endless undead horde, broke away from the legions controlled by the devils and took his loyal army with him. After all, what would any of them have to gain from fighting an enemy that has limitless reinforcements? The "final war" would have left an untold number of corpses that can be raised to serve the evil lich/whatever. Not to mention any losses they take can be turned into enemy soldiers. It's just a matter of how fast the enemy can raise and arm them. And so, I could see this monstrous general leading his army to a dragons lair, killing the damn beast, and using the golden hoard to set up a nice little empire, fixed to watch and let the devils and the undead duke it out with each other. And then, when they're both weak, crush the lot of them and usher in the new golden age for monstrous humanoids. Now comes the part I suck at most...names. I haven't forgotten that I still need example council members either. I'll see what I can get done tomorrow, for now, I slumber. Edit: There are a few other forces that I think might work as "world ending" enemies: Drow - Overused perhaps, but if they're in this campaign, they'd probably have some sort of angle in all of this. (Up to you if they're in the campaign, but if they are, would they really leave the underdark?) Mind Flayers - I think mind flayers are best used in moderation, lest they start to seem silly. (I'M GOING TO EAT YOUR BRAINS RAR!) Evil Dragons - Unless you're basing this campaign in the Dragonlance setting, I'm not sure if this is totally sensible. Kobolds - You know, it's the ones you're not expecting that get yah! Githyanki - Meh. I've always seen them as just a variation on demons. Demons from dimension X! Evil gods (that walk the earth and destroy it) - I don't prefer this. I'd rather it be a slow and inevitable loss of civilization than one giant upheaval caused by Bane or something. It'd be too quick, and it wouldn't have the same impact. For the same reason, I don't like the idea of a natural disaster either. I want it to be a long bloody war lost, not an EVE. Plague - I see no reason why this wouldn't be a strategy used by the undead horde. Those are just some extra ideas that can be worked in, but I'll focus on my original 3 (Devils, Undead, Rogue Monster General).
Return of the Flumph 10-19-07, 01:33 AM	If things are that desperate, surely some orc and goblinoid tribes would be willing to trade with and perhaps (if neccesary) fight alongside the good guys. In a world completely overrun by evil, the good people sometimes need to side with the bad against the ugly. Taken a step further, if the PC's manage to really earn the trust of an orc band or some such, a few monstrous humanoids could become longterm allies, and play a crucial role in beating back the devils and undead. Of course, it will be difficult to keep them from siding with that new orc king...
Ishmayl 10-19-07, 09:58 AM	Very nice, fodigg. I really like the concept a lot, and especially like the gloom you have presented. I really like the last post, about the typical enemies of the goodly races (orcs, goblinoids, hobs, etc), allying with the people of Home, even just temporarily. I'm looking forward to seeing this campaign pan out.
fodigg 10-19-07, 10:11 AM	If things are that desperate, surely some orc and goblinoid tribes would be willing to trade with and perhaps (if neccesary) fight alongside the good guys. In a world completely overrun by evil, the good people sometimes need to side with the bad against the ugly. Taken a step further, if the PC's manage to really earn the trust of an orc band or some such, a few monstrous humanoids could become longterm allies, and play a crucial role in beating back the devils and undead. Of course, it will be difficult to keep them from siding with that new orc king... If I was DMing this and the party attempted to forge allies with any of the 'enemies' in the world, I think that would be fantastic, because then I can really mess with them. I would also appreciate the non-combat resolution of an encounter that it would imply. I think that would be an option for the party to attempt, but you know...can you really trust orcs and ogres? ;)
Delfedd 10-19-07, 10:33 AM	Yeah. They can even get involved in Home politics. And not in a nice way. The new races demand to be included in policymaking, and won't take no for an answer.
Tovec 10-19-07, 02:21 PM	Hmm... I definitely didn't picture it as just one group opposing them. There should be varying evil forces in this world fighting over who gets the biggest slice of what used to be civilization. When I think of how the D&D world is likely to end, my immediate thoughts go to: Invading Devils (demons too I guess, but devils are more the "take over" type and demons more the "burn it all" type) Undead legions (probably led by a powerful lich, vampire king, or death knight) Monstrous races The first two I see as fixated empires in the world. There would be actual areas that they control that span large parts of the world, with new civilizations in their image. The last I see more as including various tribes and warbands that look around at the world without the common races and realize they're still getting the short end of the stick. Yeah they have more room to spread out. But so does every other band of hill giants, or orcs, or hobgoblins. And now there's far fewer innocent villagers to murder and loot. Far less victims mean lean times for those on the bottom. I wouldn't want these bands to be overly organized, but definitely a few orc or goblin kings should make their play at being the big fish in their little pond. These tribes should be fighting each other as much as they're on the look out for the rare and tasty human survivor camp. However...I do like the idea of an Orc (or other monstrous humanoid) "general" that, sick of fighting an endless undead horde, broke away from the legions controlled by the devils and took his loyal army with him. After all, what would any of them have to gain from fighting an enemy that has limitless reinforcements? The "final war" would have left an untold number of corpses that can be raised to serve the evil lich/whatever. Not to mention any losses they take can be turned into enemy soldiers. It's just a matter of how fast the enemy can raise and arm them. And so, I could see this monstrous general leading his army to a dragons lair, killing the damn beast, and using the golden hoard to set up a nice little empire, fixed to watch and let the devils and the undead duke it out with each other. And then, when they're both weak, crush the lot of them and usher in the new golden age for monstrous humanoids. Now comes the part I suck at most...names. I haven't forgotten that I still need example council members either. I'll see what I can get done tomorrow, for now, I slumber. Edit: There are a few other forces that I think might work as "world ending" enemies: Drow - Overused perhaps, but if they're in this campaign, they'd probably have some sort of angle in all of this. (Up to you if they're in the campaign, but if they are, would they really leave the underdark?) Mind Flayers - I think mind flayers are best used in moderation, lest they start to seem silly. (I'M GOING TO EAT YOUR BRAINS RAR!) Evil Dragons - Unless you're basing this campaign in the Dragonlance setting, I'm not sure if this is totally sensible. Kobolds - You know, it's the ones you're not expecting that get yah! Githyanki - Meh. I've always seen them as just a variation on demons. Demons from dimension X! Evil gods (that walk the earth and destroy it) - I don't prefer this. I'd rather it be a slow and inevitable loss of civilization than one giant upheaval caused by Bane or something. It'd be too quick, and it wouldn't have the same impact. For the same reason, I don't like the idea of a natural disaster either. I want it to be a long bloody war lost, not an EVE. Plague - I see no reason why this wouldn't be a strategy used by the undead horde. Those are just some extra ideas that can be worked in, but I'll focus on my original 3 (Devils, Undead, Rogue Monster General). If this really is the last bastion of civilization then I would say let the baddies be all of the above not just one select group. Example: Random bands of undead and hordes of Orcs vie for land. All the dark creatures of the world, the typical baddies, have come out of the woodwork and now have great stretches of land devoted to their ideals. A lich? I say an entire lich empire! All would be fighting one another as well as seeking out the last hope of the "good guys" while evil dragons manipulate and burn vast areas unchecked. Basically think, what could go wrong Did go wrong and the heroes that could correct it are hiding in their city and about to be terminated. Why not have the Drow come out of hiding? They finally are allowed to become the land-dwellers while the elves hide or burn. Kobolds, sure great city builders. Orcs start living in the mountains where the dwarves once lived. I would agree that gods would be overkill. But outside that anything big and bad that can exist should exist. Because of the Law-Chaos alignment some of the sides would be causing different amounts of destruction. The Lawfuls may be wanting to create their own domains in the void that civilization once held. Chaotics roaming free burning and pillaging whatever was left by the last people of the world. I would still give some thought to the outsiders (fiends) because getting back the lands will be hard enough without the limitless resources of the planes fighting you. I think that the fiends would fall under the same category as the gods. That isn't to say that the Devils and Demons don't battle one another on the material, they should, but it shouldn't be as if they stay around outside making camps for later battles.
INeedNoSalt 10-19-07, 03:11 PM	I imagine if you've got one giant city and need food but don't have safe space to farm... Time to start using dead people as cheap manual labor!
fodigg 10-19-07, 03:21 PM	I agree Tovec. I think any dangerous enemy that you can imagine should have carved some part of the world out for themselves and be fighting bitterly to control it. I don't want civilization to have collapsed only for it to have been replaced by another civilization. If that's the case, then it hasn't really collapsed, it's just now that Devils are in charge instead of humans. I just want to give a few key figures that can be iconic baddies for the campaign setup. Namely the few devil-controlled cities, the one powerful lich, and the one renegade orc general. But none of those baddies should control so much of the world that they've become the "new civilization". They should have their base of operations and work from there, leaving plenty of room in the wide barbarous world for any enemy you can think of.
turalisj 10-19-07, 09:01 PM	Can anyone say Stalingrad?
fodigg 10-20-07, 08:24 PM	Can anyone say Stalingrad? Interesting. Can you elaborate?
biohazard2142 10-20-07, 10:58 PM	I love you idea. Im going to use it but tweak it. Im gonna make ten cities scatered around my world. The rest of the world is over run by evil. And have my characters start in one city and they know of another city and both cities trade. And im gonna run with the main theme of taking back the lands fom evil and forming new nations. Obviously named after the city they oiginated from. what do you think man. And again i love this idea i have been looking for a campaine idea to place my characters in when i create my new world
fodigg 10-20-07, 11:34 PM	I love you idea. Im going to use it but tweak it. Im gonna make ten cities scatered around my world. The rest of the world is over run by evil. And have my characters start in one city and they know of another city and both cities trade. And im gonna run with the main theme of taking back the lands fom evil and forming new nations. Obviously named after the city they oiginated from. what do you think man. And again i love this idea i have been looking for a campaine idea to place my characters in when i create my new world Thanks bio! I think it would definitely work with 10 cities. Talk about "points of light"! In fact, I think it'd be interesting to start your NPCs in one of the cities and have it lose contact with the others. That implies that there are other "homes", but the players have to reestablish contact with them.
biohazard2142 10-21-07, 02:29 AM	That is one way of doing it, I think ill make that and adventure from the other city the pcs dont start in later on. The whole way i wa gonna go what the city they start in recently found the other city and vise versa, so now the rulling concile whats some brave(mabye inscane) adventues to go out and mabye look for more in a certin radious around both cities.
fodigg 10-21-07, 03:05 AM	That is one way of doing it, I think ill make that and adventure from the other city the pcs dont start in later on. The whole way i wa gonna go what the city they start in recently found the other city and vise versa, so now the rulling concile whats some brave(mabye inscane) adventues to go out and mabye look for more in a certin radious around both cities. This made me think of something...what if you start your party in the wild, and they stumble across Home (or in your case, one of the "homes")? I think it would set them immediately in the spotlight as members of the city were shocked by survivors just wandering up to the city gates, and it would allow the characters to start with no prior knowledge of the politics/people of Home, as the players would not have knowledge of such things.
turalisj 10-21-07, 02:16 PM	Ooohhh...can I join in? I'd love to test out the Puppeteer Class made on these boards...
SoDak 10-21-07, 03:18 PM	Interesting. Can you elaborate? Stalingrad was THE siege of WWII. From roughly the summer of 1942 into the winter of 1943. At one point the city was supplied across the frozen Volga River. Kind of like Ice Road Truckers with Nazi bullets included. (Have you ever noticed that "reality TV" never includes Stuka dive bombers?:D ) Perhaps borrowing from Stalingrad, you should have part of the defense of Home be set in urban rubble. Also, from WWII you could have tribes of "goodly" races that co-operate with evil to win their own freedom. Wood elves or snow elves might work. (Refer to Finland in WWII) I'd say there is some rich stuff to mine for a Home campaign in WWII, in terms of dark days for civilization. Oops, I've mixed some of this up with the seige of Leningrad, which was even longer (1941-44) and included the Road of Life across a frozen lake.
HCL 10-21-07, 06:15 PM	here is an idea: firearms are invented a couple hundred years too late metal is being rationed for bullets, and the people will need far more to combat the monsters that are outside the city gates so a quest hook could be to get and protect mines outside the city walls
Thevail 10-23-07, 02:47 AM	Firstly, great work Fodigg! That is really cool. A few thoughts.. Roof terrace gardens, when you cannot go out..go up. All trees inside the city have been carefully replaced with fruit and nut trees, all hedges etc. with berry bushes. Damaging them is considered a crime against the common good. Who is raising what animals for meat?? Rabbits and chickens are good and fairly harmless, and goats eat almost anything. Oysters, clams, and mussels can be farmed in relatively small ocean spaces. Massive composting efforts to improve the overused city soil. Speaking of poo...do they have captured oteyugs (sp?) or what, otherwise their sewers have to go somewhere, and obviously out to sea is kind of a bad idea since it's where they get food from. Try looking up permaculture, it's pretty good for what you're trying to do. Clerics using purify water to turn seawater into usable water for irrigation. The city must have some pretty serious anti-teleport magic, or else baddies would pop in and summon, summon, summon. Also spells like meteor swarm etc. would have to be stopped or the place would look like downtown London after WWII. Have the dwarves dug emergency "air raid" tunnels? What about dragon attacks?! What do they do with prisoners? Forced to work or forced to fight ? They can't turn them out of town since they know the layout of the city too well.
Shimura 10-23-07, 07:34 AM	This whole thread is filled with amazing ideas! However what would people think about pulling in some ideas from Eberron & Phillip Reeve's novels in which "Traction Cities" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_Cities] move around avoiding the wasteland populated by monsters and attacking and devouring other moving cities for food and raw materials. Much like the floating city the Argonth in Eberron which is a giant floating citadel that patrols Breland's borders? Obviously different from the original poster's idea but I think an interesting one nonetheless. Its points of light, but the points can move....
Warweaver 10-23-07, 11:39 AM	Thevail beat me to the punch with a lot of those ideas, but I'll try. :P I've been doing something similar to this with my own campaign - a big "natural" disaster called The Sundering a century ago practically destroyed a Prime Material Plane, leaving it a tiny, cramped shell of its former self (think random landmasses with half-ruined cities and strange ecosystems that survived, all cramped together in a Pangaea less than half the size of the U.S.). Planar rifts were opened (only recently closed), introducing hosts of fiends and other weirdness, turning the whole thing into a mini Blood War, with the dwindling mortal races trapped in the middle. I called it Land's End, for obvious reasons. A number of things to consider for yours: - What do the gods do about all this? Does this world just have a natural "hands-off" approach, where they grant spells but little else? In mine the Sundering disrupted the planar traits so that Avatars and whatnot can't manifest. - What is to prevent from creating portals to overwhelm the city? Or teleporting in as Thevail suggested? Or other magical attacks? Consider adding a Council position for a "magical elite", as they might be very important (and thus, influential) for this reason (and others, like conjuring supplies). - If the sea is "safe", what do the land-dwellers think of the aquatic races? Is jealousy more common than gratitude? Do people try to marry into this sub-group in the hope of aquatic children? Are Helms of Underwater Action and similar items at a premium? Or are all magic item smiths contracted for the city's defense? - To remain even temporarily stable, a city like this should have at least one major advantage over their enemies. I like the idea of the seas being a "safe zone", and you could take it even further. Maybe their shipyard is completely military, heavily protected from sabotage. Maybe dockworkers get special benefits compared to the regular populace, or maybe those that work the offshore mines/farms/etc. get higher pay (but are more difficult to protect if the enemy [I]does attack). How do they maintain this advantage? Does the enemy have no ship-building know-how? Or is one of the city's more important tasks scrying on enemy shipyards and launching sneak-attacks before they're completed? IMO one of the neatest things about urban campaigns (especially in fantasy) is the unusual laws and regulations that arise to change people's daily lives. I've done this a lot with my game and offer some example laws below: - Fire magic of any kind is illegal. Casters and alchemists can get special contracts to cast or make such things, but only on private property. This is especially important in a typical medieval city, less so if the dwarves are putting all that rubble from their tunneling to good use. :P - It is a crime to relieve yourself anywhere but specifically designated areas. The waste could then be collected for use in fungal or island farms, or taken out by ship and dumped far away. - All building is done by government contract artisans. New houses are perpetually being built on top of the old, and the artisans will even demolish a home whose foundation can't support at least three more stories. Maybe roof gardens are extremely profitable for the home owner, but it's illegal to build them unless your roof is 3+ stories up. - You must obtain a license from the city to procreate. Depending on how expensive or selective this is, it could be a real source of tension (inter-caste, inter-species). It could also get exponentially more expensive for licenses after the first. - All elves must serve at least one year on the wall watch. Maybe the government has recognized how they have keen senses and don't really sleep like humans do. Other races could have similar "mandated niches". - Since everyone's stuck in one city and the only far travel is by ship, perhaps keeping animals for other than food (cats, dogs, even horses) is illegal, or requires a city contract. Carts and wagons could still exist as rick-shaws - jobs for the poor. - Certain spells (besides fire) could be too dangerous and thus illegal to cast inside the city. This could vary depending on the people's prejudice and the Implacable Enemy, but summoning, necromancy, and mind control powers are a good start. Like fire, maybe certain individuals are exempt - in my world there is a sect of very patriotic clerics (Wee Jas) allowed to use the city's graveyards and raise undead to defend against a siege. :P
fodigg 10-23-07, 01:34 PM	Firstly, great work Fodigg! That is really cool. Thanks! :) Roof terrace gardens, when you cannot go out..go up. All trees inside the city have been carefully replaced with fruit and nut trees, all hedges etc. with berry bushes. Damaging them is considered a crime against the common good. Who is raising what animals for meat?? Rabbits and chickens are good and fairly harmless, and goats eat almost anything. Oysters, clams, and mussels can be farmed in relatively small ocean spaces. Massive composting efforts to improve the overused city soil. These are all really good ideas. I wanted to avoid towering skyscraper-style buildings, but I would have nothing against using roof space for agriculture. Maybe even 'hanging' agriculture on the inside of the wall? And it would make sense that only what would provide some sort of food or other service would be raised/grown in Home. Unless a plant or animal as religious signifigance or is owned by a very wealthy noble, the space to accomodate it shouldn't be wasted. Speaking of poo...do they have captured oteyugs (sp?) or what, otherwise their sewers have to go somewhere, and obviously out to sea is kind of a bad idea since it's where they get food from. Try looking up permaculture, it's pretty good for what you're trying to do. Clerics using purify water to turn seawater into usable water for irrigation. Clerics would definitely have political power in Home as they are necessary to purify water and conjure food, as well as deal with outbreaks of disease from the inevitable failure of the sewage system. What isn't used to create fertilizer would, I imagine, be dumped out over the wall and onto the "killing field" as nobody ever goes out there. This "dumping" would create defense issues and sanitation issues. Defense issues: Any hole cut in the wall or ramp down running to the killing field could give an attacking force a way to breach the walls. I would go so far as to say that these things are not done. This means that refuse is dumped over the very top of the wall, and goes straight down the wall to the base of the wall, resting against the city. As refuse would collect at the bottom of the wall, it is a danger that a great mound would build up in front of the wall that an invading force could climb. This mound would have to be burned or otherwise dealt with regularly. Sanitation issues: As refuse has to be dumped over the top of the wall, it has to be brought to the top of the wall. I imagine that there's no easy way to do this, and spilling would happen. The garbage would be dragged up the long stair climb of the wall or put into a bin and raised with a pully. In order to avoid the growth of a mound at the base of the wall outside the city, a mage would have to fireball-blast the mound of garbage occassionally, burning it down to a lower level. The fumes this would create would be awful, and probably wouldn't be good for anyone on that side of the city. Some alternatives to "dumping" refuse would probably already have been tried: A 'garbage barge' ship that gets piled up with waste and then floated off to the nearby island to dump its load. This would have been rejected because It's a security concern. The barge would be large enough and cluttered enough that an invading force could board it and use it to slip into the city. It also would land frequently, which wouldn't help. Such a ship would always risk sinking or spilling and poisoning the water-based food supply. It would take a rather large ship to be effective, denying home either a large contributer to the fishing fleet or another defense ship. Catapault! Why dump when you can fling garbage across the killing field and into the forest? One mis-fired shot would be all it took to end this plan. Digging a hole in the ground to pour waste into would be rejected by Dwarves who know better. Filling the storm tunnels with waste or overburdening the sewer system would make the Dwarves miserable and flood the city with waste should a bad storm ever hit. Burning within the city would be rejected because of the fumes. Not to mention, what if the fire got out of control? The city must have some pretty serious anti-teleport magic, or else baddies would pop in and summon, summon, summon. Also spells like meteor swarm etc. would have to be stopped or the place would look like downtown London after WWII. Have the dwarves dug emergency "air raid" tunnels? What about dragon attacks?! What do they do with prisoners? Forced to work or forced to fight ? They can't turn them out of town since they know the layout of the city too well. I imagine that the Dwarven tunnels would be able to house some of the population in case of a raid. Probably the children, the frail and the rich. The biggest defense against dragons would be shooting the damn things down. There would have to be some sort of "shield" magic that can be lifted over the city when it needs to "go turtle". I don't know enough about spells to decide what that would be, but it would be artifact-level magic built into the city defenses. I imagine such a device would also be what negates teleportation magic. It would effectively be the reason Home has survived. An interesting adventure hook would be if the device began to fail, and needed a certain magical component half a world away to power it back up for another 100 years. This whole thread is filled with amazing ideas! However what would people think about pulling in some ideas from Eberron & Phillip Reeve's novels in which "Traction Cities" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_Cities] move around avoiding the wasteland populated by monsters and attacking and devouring other moving cities for food and raw materials. Much like the floating city the Argonth in Eberron which is a giant floating citadel that patrols Breland's borders? Obviously different from the original poster's idea but I think an interesting one nonetheless. Its points of light, but the points can move.... I think this would be a very interesting addition to the concept. Since we're talking Eberron here, and I can't help but think of the Eberron version of "home" as the city of Sharn, what if they found a way to make the floating section of sharn mobile? Then that would become home, and would have a whole new set of problems. - What do the gods do about all this? Does this world just have a natural "hands-off" approach, where they grant spells but little else? In mine the Sundering disrupted the planar traits so that Avatars and whatnot can't manifest. That would depend on the setting this campaign idea is applied to. If it was Eberron, the gods are distant, if it was Faerun...well...I'd say that the gods are impotent, weakened, or dead. Clerical magic only works with a god behind it in Faerun, so this question would have a lot more relevance in a Forgotten Realms campaign. - What is to prevent from creating portals to overwhelm the city? Or teleporting in as Thevail suggested? Or other magical attacks? Consider adding a Council position for a "magical elite", as they might be very important (and thus, influential) for this reason (and others, like conjuring supplies). Interesting idea! If the "magical artifact" is the answer to Home's magical defense, it's care would be of incredible importance. Just as I would want to have a "General" in command of the army but below the council, I would want an "Arch-Mage" in command of all magical defenses. - If the sea is "safe", what do the land-dwellers think of the aquatic races? Is jealousy more common than gratitude? Do people try to marry into this sub-group in the hope of aquatic children? Are Helms of Underwater Action and similar items at a premium? Or are all magic item smiths contracted for the city's defense? I very much want the sea to be "the end" of this world. I want the sea to be the limit of where they can run from the invading hordes, so, other than the idea of a few aquatic citizens under the docks, I would not want the sea to be safe. Maybe "safer". Maybe safe enough to risk fishing or transporting adventuerers and Home agents onto land down the coastline, but not safe, and certainly not full of friendly aquatic races. - To remain even temporarily stable, a city like this should have at least one major advantage over their enemies. I like the idea of the seas being a "safe zone", and you could take it even further. Maybe their shipyard is completely military, heavily protected from sabotage. Maybe dockworkers get special benefits compared to the regular populace, or maybe those that work the offshore mines/farms/etc. get higher pay (but are more difficult to protect if the enemy [I]does attack). How do they maintain this advantage? Does the enemy have no ship-building know-how? Or is one of the city's more important tasks scrying on enemy shipyards and launching sneak-attacks before they're completed? Even if the sea isn't a "safe zone" this concept (what seems to be a military ocean campaign) would be a good one. Each ship on the line would be valuable for defense. The captains and crews would have to be the best at their trade, the kind of men who can spot an enemy fleet on patrol and thwart it with a much smaller force, where losing even a single ship could mean doom for Home. The dock workers would have become geniuses at fixing or improving ships with minimum equipment. Jury-rigging because proper supplies aren't avaiable. I think a Sea-minded party could have an excellent campaign improving this situation and initiating the construction of the first "Home-born" battleship, for the defense of Home, and/or for the exploration of the nearby sea (to either find a new place that can be settled or to discover the fate of the friendly aquatic races). IMO one of the neatest things about urban campaigns (especially in fantasy) is the unusual laws and regulations that arise to change people's daily lives. I've done this a lot with my game and offer some example laws below: - Fire magic of any kind is illegal. - It is a crime to relieve yourself anywhere but specifically designated areas. - All building is done by government contract artisans. - You must obtain a license from the city to procreate. - All elves must serve at least one year on the wall watch. - Since everyone's stuck in one city and the only far travel is by ship, perhaps keeping animals for other than food (cats, dogs, even horses) is illegal, or requires a city contract. Carts and wagons could still exist as rick-shaws - jobs for the poor. - Certain spells (besides fire) could be too dangerous and thus illegal to cast inside the city. This could vary depending on the people's prejudice and the Implacable Enemy, but summoning, necromancy, and mind control powers are a good start. Like fire, maybe certain individuals are exempt - in my world there is a sect of very patriotic clerics (Wee Jas) allowed to use the city's graveyards and raise undead to defend against a siege. :P Great ideas! I think that any unsanctioned magic would be illegal in Home. Magic should be used to defend home, improve living space in home, and in rare circumstances to facilitate entertainment to improve morale. Any magic user would have to be approved (and probably trained) by the government. Fire magic would especially be regulated. As for necromancy, I think they would go so far as to dispose of remains in such a way that they could not be raised. Burning would be the easiest manner, but again, this causes problems in such a confined area. As for the social concerns, I kind of covered "pets" being allowed only to the most influential and wealthy. I think that it would be illegal to not have a job unless you're disabled, but I wouldn't make it race-based. Anyone who shows individual skills that are useful to Home probably would be pressed into that profession however. As for the sanitation concerns, I kind of covered that, but your idea of making basic sanitation a legal responsibility is a good one. I would even include the idea of government mandated bathing. It might sound silly, but it's a lot more serious when you're trying to avoid a plague breaking out. --- Thanks to everyone for the interest and responses! You are all a great help in refining a random idea into an actual campaign concept. I am grateful!
Thevail 10-23-07, 02:04 PM	One word...Mythal...
fodigg 10-23-07, 02:51 PM	One word...Mythal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythal)... :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: !!!1 Thanks, Thevail! That's perfect! From the wiki: In the Forgotten Realms setting in the continent of Faerûn, a mythal is a powerful epic level magical effect, created by a circle of elven High Mages to protect and ward a large area with numerous powerful enchantments. ... Silverymoon's mythal excludes evil dragons and forbids casting magic to teleport into the mythal. Creation of a mythal sometimes requires the willing sacrifice of the lead caster's life, a result that lead to the first mythal's being named after its creator. In addition, many Mythal spells corrode over time, and if not maintained can become corrupted. This has occurred in Myth Drannor and resulted in the current state of that city. There's something about the mythal granting specific magical powers to certain classes, but what I quoted above pretty much covers exactly what I'm after. Thanks again, Thevail. You rock!
Warweaver 10-23-07, 05:46 PM	Mythals are usually from long-dead civilizations, created by Epic-level spellcasters - considering the close-quarters all this happens in, you might want to have the city's Mythal created before it was known as Home - maybe ancient, maybe finished just before the Enemy reached it and slew the arch-mages who made it in a huge battle. The mages now can maintain it, even modify it a little...but if a threat to the Mythal itself ever arose, Home would take it very seriously. Alternatively, you could have the arch-magi killed when it was only half-finished, and can't power its greatest functions all the time. I like your idea about the city having a "turtle-mode" - maybe the Council have a "Portal Watch" that uses scrying and guards with signal arrows to watch for signs of teleportation - at the first sign of danger, the mages put up the shell, so they only have to deal with a handful of the Enemy in the city. Either way, keeping the average level low (or at least keeping the high-level guys realistically occupied) will be essential for such cramped adventures. Otherwise, what's to stop the PCs from just asking the Captain of the Guard for help? Adventures outside Home wouldn't have this problem, which brings me to the next point... ...Is "adventuring" as we know it common in Home? Although safety is most people's primary concern, I could definitely see the percentage of adventurers in the population being higher, as such claustrophobic conditions mean everyone is desperate for some breathing space. Time alone may be the most precious resource of all. This could mean many things: - Even those who are not career sailors in the city might have a few ranks in Profession (sailing). Buying a dingy might be common for those who can afford it, as a day of sailing would be the easiest way to "get away from it all", even if you never lose sight of the city walls. - Adventurers in general might be a military venture - guerrilla squads that the Council has on a long leash with benefits, if they engage in the occasional mission. They might get free training or be conditioned to resist torture should the Enemy find them and try to probe Home's weaknesses. I like your idea about the sea being "the end" rather than a way out, as it keeps the desperate feel. My campaign world is based on a "flat earth" where the sea stretches out a certain distance and then turns into massive waterfalls and empty space (or the plane of Limbo for mine). Of course that's just one option - the series of islands could give way to a vast empty ocean, and no one knows what's beyond. Or perhaps outside of this small island chain and the shore, they've made a few attempts - but all ships have been mysteriously scuttled, and they can't risk any more. What scuttled them? Sahuagin allies of the Enemy? Aquatic Black Puddings? Territorial Leviathans? Sentient electric vampiric coral?? The Bermuda Triangle!? Jimmy Hoffa with Divine Rank!?! *deep breath* Sorry, got a little excited there. Anyway, kudos on a very cool idea that's got me thinking. Perhaps a little too much.
redodysseus 10-23-07, 11:17 PM	I like your setting. Here are a few ideas that I thought of. Resources Two have not been mentioned that would be vital for the society. The first is what material do they use for clothing. Until modern times clothes were usually the second largest expense after food. Maybe they grow hemp for material for the poor; its oil could also be used for lamps. While maybe for the wealthy they have silk worms. For descriptive effect it would be a way to emphasize the class divisions within the society. The second is naval stores. Ships are expensive and wear out after twenty years. Any ship larger than small fishing boats require specialized material. The mast was usually the most difflicult part requiring a large, tall tree. Also, the material for sails and ropes were considerable. Maybe, there is an island with the necessary timber and flax for ropes but of course with dangerous monsters. The City You mentioned you did not want skyscapers but in ancient Rome it was not uncommon for many of the buildings to be five to six stories tall. The wealthy lived on the bottom floors- cooler, no stairs- and the poorest on top. Just to provide geographic distinction to the city, like Rome there could be several hills that comprise the city. An exclusive hill for the rich, one for the temple, governmental center, the poor ect. Government/Economy As for the government are all the people citizens, maybe some are slaves or just denied a voice within the city government. This could definitly create tension and the opportunity for factions. Is the council hereditary, voted in, or maybe a bit of both. To refer to Rome (sorry I come from a classical background), there were elections to vote in aristocratic representative. The people were divided into tribes, but not all the tribes were equal in size. For example the majority of the people, ie poor people were lumped into one tribe limiting their voice while the wealthier people had smaller and more numerous tribes ensuring that they always controlled the government. One more thing. Maybe those on the bottom of economic ladder have a messianic religion that is preaching a form of primitive communism, similiar to the rise of Christianity.
fodigg 10-24-07, 12:23 PM	you might want to have the city's Mythal created before it was known as Home Either way, keeping the average level low (or at least keeping the high-level guys realistically occupied) will be essential for such cramped adventures. Otherwise, what's to stop the PCs from just asking the Captain of the Guard for help? I like this idea a lot! In this scenario, the mythal was not created to make Home more defensible, retreating forces fled to Home because the mythal was already in place. For settings where you would want to use a pre-existing city, it wouldn't be that hard to say that a mythal was placed over, say Sharn or Waterdeep, right when the world started going to hell. It would also explain why the city survived even if it wasn't populated by epic characters. I wouldn't think anyone in the city would be above level 15 (in 4E terms, where epic is 21-30), and even these persons would be rare and powerful. ...Is "adventuring" as we know it common in Home? Although safety is most people's primary concern, I could definitely see the percentage of adventurers in the population being higher, as such claustrophobic conditions mean everyone is desperate for some breathing space. Time alone may be the most precious resource of all. This could mean many things: - Even those who are not career sailors in the city might have a few ranks in Profession (sailing). Buying a dingy might be common for those who can afford it, as a day of sailing would be the easiest way to "get away from it all", even if you never lose sight of the city walls. - Adventurers in general might be a military venture - guerrilla squads that the Council has on a long leash with benefits, if they engage in the occasional mission. They might get free training or be conditioned to resist torture should the Enemy find them and try to probe Home's weaknesses. This is pretty much what I had pictured. If you're leaving the city, for any reason, the council needs to approve it (unless you're being smuggled out) and you will most likely will be doing so with specific goals in mind. Even if it's not "go to location X and find magical item O", it might be a general, "as you're exploring, please keep an eye out for any sources of Iron". Of course that's just one option - the series of islands could give way to a vast empty ocean, and no one knows what's beyond. Or perhaps outside of this small island chain and the shore, they've made a few attempts - but all ships have been mysteriously scuttled, and they can't risk any more. The Open Sea as a barrier was, in my mind, a combination of: The distance to cross the sea/ocean The danger of enemy fleets and roving monstrous pirate bands The fact that any ship sent out to explore would be one less ship on the line defending home And simply, where would they go? With no clear destination in mind, it would certainly seem like a dubious undertaking *deep breath* Sorry, got a little excited there. Anyway, kudos on a very cool idea that's got me thinking. Perhaps a little too much. Thanks for all the questions! I couldn't have developed the campaign concept in a vaccum. Resources Two have not been mentioned that would be vital for the society. clothing. naval stores. Wow, I had not thought about clothing...like...at all. Hmm. Leather would definitely be extremely valuable, and would also have other uses than clothing. Protective leather boots and armor, especially for guardsmen and any adventurer willing to invest, would probably be a reality, but otherwise you would probably see people wearing cheap cloth (such as hemp), and I would imagine that robes and sandals would be common (depending on the climate and season). Only the very rich would have any sort of silk, and that would likely be passed down from previous generations more often than made in Home. As for Naval Stores, I definitely want them to be struggling to keep these boats afloat. The resources they need (lumber, tar, nails, rope, sails, etc) would all need to be produced in home or gathered from nearby islands or from along the coast. They should manage enough to get by, but some ships should be semi-permanently docked while they try to find a way to fix it, and the mend spell should get frequent use when working on the ships. You mentioned you did not want skyscapers but in ancient Rome it was not uncommon for many of the buildings to be five to six stories tall. The wealthy lived on the bottom floors- cooler, no stairs- and the poorest on top. Just to provide geographic distinction to the city, like Rome there could be several hills that comprise the city. An exclusive hill for the rich, one for the temple, governmental center, the poor ect. I don't mind six stories, it's just in certain settings (I'm looking at you Eberron!) there are cities that have buildings with sixty stories (or more!). That's not what I'm looking at for Home. But yes, they would build as high as they reasonably could, and 5-6 stories seems like a reasonable cutoff. I like the idea of "hills", but I feel like you could break the city into "quarters" or neighborhoods without them. Too many hills implies (in my mind anyway) that there is a large area for the city. That might not actually be the case, but I want to avoid that implication if I can, because I want everything about the city to be cramped. Also, as the city is right up against the sea, I'm not sure there would be too many hills. As for the government are all the people citizens, maybe some are slaves or just denied a voice within the city government. This could definitly create tension and the opportunity for factions. ... One more thing. Maybe those on the bottom of economic ladder have a messianic religion that is preaching a form of primitive communism, similiar to the rise of Christianity. I see the docks-folk, the people living out over the water, as the poorest of the poor, and would not have very good representation compared to other groups of the city. If anyone is fomenting ideas of revolution, they'd be in the docks. I don't like the idea of outright slavery, but indentured servitude or an underprivileged portion of the population would probably be unavoidable in such a setup. --- That just reminded me that I never answered the "what would they do with prisoners?" question. To that, I would have to say, "what prisoners?" They'd kill anyone trying to invade, and any criminal that isn't being held temporarily would be a drain on city resources. They wouldn't even have to execute these people. They'd just drop them off in the wild. Thanks again for the questions! They are appreciated!
Warweaver 10-24-07, 01:15 PM	For the military-aligned adventurer, this "contract" could be important. Maybe they pay extra for scouting iron-sources, old ruins, other "bastions", etc. This could be important loot-wise, as the only ways to find magic items in such a place might be: a) dangerous ruins, b) defeating incredibly hard or well-trained squads of the Enemy (and IMO in such a desperate situation, the Enemy would be something to avoid rather than call out), or c) a special allowance by Home. The Council wouldn't let just anyone buy from the "magic warehouse" - all the fearful nobles would just buy up the strategic stockpile. A military commission might be the only way adventurers have to exchange the gold and valuables they find in the field for "upgrades". The other question is economy - why would gold still be valuable anyway? Maybe Home + Islands is still large enough to support trade (even just with itself). In a world with "Points of Light" this would be easier, but I like the idea of just one (known) bastion. Perhaps the PCs stumble on an Enemy-controlled city and pretend they're some Enemy Baron's slaves, conduct "their owner's business", and escape before anyone's the wiser. Exchange of goods itself could be an adventure! The important thing to remember is Joe Blo farmer surviving in a cave with his family doesn't care if you have 2 copper or 200 platinum - most of the economy will still be based on barter and Diplomacy checks. :P With the ships, I like your first three reasons much better than "where would they go?". In history, not knowing if there's actual land in a direction hasn't stopped explorers, and many people may want to "explore" in this desperate place - an "anywhere but here" kind of thing. I like the idea that the ships are so valuable...maybe the Council is brutal in their denial of deep sea sailing requests, another point of tension with the populace. Maybe some captain turned traitor and fled that way in the past - now the Council has declared that anyone trying to head for deep waters will have their boat destroyed rather than succeed, and the entire crew executed. Desperate times, after all. That first escaped captain could be an adventure point for late in the campaign, too - reinforcements at their darkest hour, or a rival smaller deep-ocean settlement that has grown up hating Home with a passion. The docks-folk being disenfranchised makes a lot of sense. Maybe they're the least likely to get "birthing contracts" from the Council, because the rulers know you can't build up on docks. They're stuck where they are until they can either buy their way into the city proper, or sign onto a ship. I love the idea of criminals being dumped over the wall. And they thought they were desperate before! Seems a neat thing to expose the PCs to (by framing them or otherwise), since any PC (besides Monks, Sorcs, and a few others perhaps) would freak when dropped outside Home with no gear. A nice change of pace if "help Home prosper" is getting too tired and "survive in the wild" sounds fun. :P You could also have them meet a criminal during their travels who's somehow stayed alive - a "crazy survivalist" or "Enemy convert" can always be fun, as friend, foe, or something in between.
fodigg 10-24-07, 02:14 PM	why would gold still be valuable anyway? Trade would have to take place within the walls of Home, but with a big enough population this should be possible. The value of gold would be regulated by the council. In history, not knowing if there's actual land in a direction hasn't stopped explorers, and many people may want to "explore" in this desperate place - an "anywhere but here" kind of thing. The lack of destination is only really important because each ship is so valuable. The society would be less likely to risk so much without some sort of "plan". However, maybe there are rumors that another mythal protected city exists on the far side of the continent? That'd be worth exploring. You could also have them meet a criminal during their travels who's somehow stayed alive - a "crazy survivalist" or "Enemy convert" can always be fun, as friend, foe, or something in between. I think that'd be really fun. :)
Slapstick87 10-25-07, 05:59 PM	This thread has given me the spark to create a new campaign for my dormant player group! Excellent. However I want to add another degree of desperation. As far as I can see the life would be hard and cruel for 80% of the population, but the 20% that is rich and ruling would be safe behind the Mythal and not in much distress. I want to change that. I want the city to be under attack every now and then, attacks that almost break through the protection of the mythal. That way the general population will be worried about their petty day-to-day difficulties, and the ruling body would want them to shut up because there's larger things at stake. Fun, fun fun... But then I need help to answer a few questions, things I need to have in place to be able to make it all "fit". 1. Why are the other planes interested in conquering the material plane in the first case? 2. Now that they've obviously succeeded, why do they care about one stubborn little city? Do they possess something? They're obviosly too few to be of any value as slaves. 3. What would the monstrosities do at the material plane that the mortal races isn't already doing? (It's not like the mortal races exists in total harmony. There's war, suffering and strife on the material plane as much as anywhere else). - Slapstick
Delfedd 10-25-07, 09:33 PM	1. Why are the other planes interested in conquering the material plane in the first case? Because there was an opportunity. Perhaps one of the great gods fell, perhaps Pelor, and Hextor grabbed the sun god's power as he perished. This swung the power from chaotic good to lawful evil. This shift was perhaps too large for the multiverse to handle. Portals to hell began opening up all over the material plane, to be snatched by the archdukes. Also, as a side effect, portals to good or chaotic planes are very difficult to make from the Material plane now. 2. Now that they've obviously succeeded, why do they care about one stubborn little city? Do they possess something? They're obviosly too few to be of any value as slaves. Well, perhaps Home is a symbol for rebellion among the insurgency. They may also have the secret to creating Mythals, something that Archdevils would covet in the blood war and their squabbles among themselves. 3. What would the monstrosities do at the material plane that the mortal races isn't already doing? (It's not like the mortal races exists in total harmony. There's war, suffering and strife on the material plane as much as anywhere else). Ever hear of Hell on earth? That would be it it. The main issue is that the mortal plane wouldn't be ours anymore. I mean, sure we summon devils to fight in our wars, but devils shouldn't be able to employ us! Also, when faced with extinction, races will do almost anything to survive.
fodigg 10-26-07, 11:12 AM	Delfedd had some good repsonses to these concens. I'll drop my own two cents in as well. As far as I can see the life would be hard and cruel for 80% of the population, but the 20% that is rich and ruling would be safe behind the Mythal and not in much distress. I want to change that. I want the city to be under attack every now and then, attacks that almost break through the protection of the mythal. That way the general population will be worried about their petty day-to-day difficulties, and the ruling body would want them to shut up because there's larger things at stake. I actually don't view Home as a segment of the population, but as the remaining population of all civilization (minus criminals and a few scattered survivors who can't really be said to be living in civilization). As far as the populace of Home know anyway. And I do want Home to be attacked. I never pictured the Mythal as a "cure-all" to assault. Every once in a while some general or death knight or other horror will remember that Home is a target just full of resources and magical artifacts, and make their go at it. Maybe it's not an easy target. But it's not like the people of Home have anywhere to run to or anyone to call on for help. When a fastball that tempting comes right over the plate, it can be hard for someone to resist taking their best swing at it. So attacks would indeed happen, despite the impressive defenses of home and the fact that it really isn't a threat. Think Hoth from empire strikes back. The mythal is a giant "shield generator" that wards Home from bombardment of any sort, forcing enemies to make an all-out frontal assault, either by land or by sea. Every few months, out of nowhere, an army or enemy fleet (or both) should appear on the horizon and lay siege to Home, meaning weeks of "battle of Helm's Deep" style combat. Yes they don't have to worry about fire raining from the sky, but armies pounding at the gates and climbing the wall would be a constant concern. 1. Why are the other planes interested in conquering the material plane in the first case? I've always assumed that A) It's in their nature, and B) their home plane kind of sucks. Why settle for what you have? Why toil in the station you currently hold when you could slice off a piece of that mortal-plane pie for yourself? Even the guy on top would see the opportunity. 2. Now that they've obviously succeeded, why do they care about one stubborn little city? Do they possess something? They're obviosly too few to be of any value as slaves. I talked about this a bit above, but I think the reasons for these 'rolling waves' of attacks against home would include: Desire for the magical artifacts and "secrets" of Home, which could potentially grant power to the general who siezes it. For the glory of being the one to finally take control of Home. That honor would be worth quite a bit of political capital, making the victor a major political player in the world. Because they're bored. Once the world is conquered, you can either fight each other or sit on your butt. Attacking Home might be some big party festival for Orcs. Attack, drink, attack, drink, etc. Every invasion is a chance to regain the glory of the "great war". 3. What would the monstrosities do at the material plane that the mortal races isn't already doing? (It's not like the mortal races exists in total harmony. There's war, suffering and strife on the material plane as much as anywhere else). It's more about, in my opinion, what they wouldn't be doing. There would be no cultural output of art, or new technology, or medicine. The cities wouldn't care about keeping roads safe. Dangerous monsters wouldn't be hunted down and put to the sword (unless you count the goodly races as dangerous monsters). It would be more of the bad that mortals do, and none of the good that mortals do. --- Thank you for the responses! Today I'll try to finally get some NPC personalities posted.
fodigg 10-26-07, 03:42 PM	Okay, here are (finally) the lists of example NPC personalities to populate Home. I'm not including stats because these are social peronalities and not thugs (if you want one as a BBEG, you'll probably want to stat him/her up yourselves anyway), so you will probably never even need them to have stats. Also, these are only examples. I honestly doubt that anyone would use these unedited. I'm not even sure I would use exactly these NPCs in a "Bastion" campaign. On to the example NPCs... City Council Lord Griffon DeMonte, Human male - Royal District/Council Head Griffon is the decendant of the original lord of Home and the famous General who led the human forces in the great war before retreating back to Home and building up the walls. While council seats are by ballot appointment only (theoretically), the Royal district has always chosen one of the Lord's decendants as their representative. However, there are many persons in the Royal District with claims to "Lordly" blood, so this is hardly an assurance that Griffon will stay in power. DeMonte came into power largely by glad handing and putting on a show of regality and "pride in Home" that appealed to the residents in the R.D. To continue the appearance of regality, Griffon will frequently wear military attire, complete with ceremonial armor and weapon, even though he has never trained for combat. DeMonte is generally a good person. He doesn't want to see Home fall (obviously) and doesn't have many political aspirations beyond staying on as the head of the council. He usually isn't smart enough to come up with a plan of action (that will improve Home) on his own, but he doesn't have any dastardly designs either. DeMonte, because he has no real agendas, tends to waffle when it comes time to make a decision. He doesn't want to lose his position or make a real error that costs Home, so he tends to bog down progress trying to get everyone to agree on one course of action instead of simply declaring a matter settled. Instead of being decisive, he calls another meeting. In attempt to appear decisive, he will often make strong stands on odd issues that few persons really care about. Deucal Rockhoof, Dwarf male - Industry District Deucal knows that Home has problems, but he doesn't care. He doesn't have a real population in his district, he has laborers. He cares about getting work done and making "the trains run on time" (there are no trains, but you get my meaning). Deucal's one priority is to make sure that production continues in his tiny district. He wants new resources for the forges, new material to build up the walls, and ways to fix the ships and arm the guards. If Deucal thinks that somebody is getting in the way of these aims, or simply being "unhelpful", then they are weak, soft, "whiners" and he doesn't want to hear it. One aspect of his job that he truly hates is managing the roof-top agriculture farms that are scattered across Home. He doesn't like leaving his district, and he thinks the farmers are all lazy. He calls them "garden bums". Greta Sweetlily, Halfling female - Market District Greta has landed the lucky position of leading the Market District; the upper-middle-class of Home. While the market district was originally only equipped for commerce, it has since been rebuilt as a second housing district for the bulging Home populace. The Market district is roomier and cleaner than other parts of the city, and closer to the marketplace, to taverns, and to the entertainment centers of Home than even the Royal District. Greta's main priority is to live the good life, protect those who keep her in power, and rake in money and other resources to fund Home (and provide herself with personal comforts). She is corrupt, not above bribery, and has connections to the Syndicate. She often watches out for their interests. Greta has turned a blind eye to the unofficial "red light district" that the syndicate runs in the Market District, and protects them from raids by the city guard by training and hiring her own "Market Security" force to patrol the Market District instead. Her argument is that she wants to protect the commerce center of Home, but she really just wants control. Joss Kerasotes, Gnome male - Housing District One word that describes Joss is "nervous". Joss is in charge of the cramped, but livable Housing District. While others in Home might have it a bit better, Joss is more focused on how much his district has to lose. Joss doesn't like things to mess with the status quo. As things are now, the people feel (relatively) safe, (most) people in his district have work, and there's enough elbow space that there aren't riots (yet). Anything that threatens the status quo gives Joss fits. Joss tends to admire how Griffon goes about managing the council and is more than eager to follow his lead, especially when that means more meetings and red tape. One more worry for poor Joss is that the criminal Syndicate is looking to have him replaced. Now that they have one council member in their pocket (Greta), they want more. With a district election coming up, Joss is really ramping up his "He Keeps You Satisfied" campaign. Silvia Fletcher, Human female - Dock District Silvia is a middle-aged laborer who has lived her entire life on the Docks. She has witnessed the Dock District change from a new, open living space (the first real expansion in Home's history since the war) to an over-crowded slum that's rotting around them. The lucky ones have work, but many do not. Silvia despises the other members of the council, with the exception of possibly Deucal (although she wishes he would hire more workers). The lack of action and constant debate of the council infuriates her, and she's well aware that her district is growing restless. Other than dealing with the council, Silvia has to manage her own district, calming them even as she wants to go on a killing spree herself. She's sensible enough to know that striking is not an option, as the Home fleet needs constant repair and Home in general can't afford to a breakdown in production of basic supplies from the fishing industry. Any strike would put them all in danger. So, she assures her people that she's making the council listen, and then works herself into a rabid frenzy every council meeting trying to get them to listen to reason. Unfortunately, her small victories in the council are hardly enough to calm her populace, which is very near rioting. Sylvia does her best to keep revolutionaries in check, but it seems like a new voice is calling for violence each day. Roz Firsthammer, Dwarf female - Tunnel District Roz leads the small population of dwarves that dig the tunnels under Home. They run the mushroom farms, raise the animals that can live underground, and brew traditional dwarven ale. Like her district, Roz is often overlooked. She doesn't help herself stand out by keeping stoically quiet during meetings, and only speaks up to report that things are well in the tunnels. Firsthammer views the tunnels as her own little city, and has no intention of going out of her way to help the greater Home populace. The dwarves of the Tunnel District are with her in this mentaility. Unknown to the other council members, the dwarves have made perpartions to seal off the Tunnel District should the walls ever be breached. A secret escape tunnel is constantly under construction leading in-land, and the plan is, should Home ever be overrun, to seal off the Tunnel District (and seal out the greater Home populace) and use the time that Home is being pillaged to dig an exit for the escape tunnel before collapsing the entire Tunnel District. Defense Council General Dugan MacLeod, Human male - Army/Guard General MacLeod is charged with the many tasks of keeping the streets safe with the city guard, keeping the walls in good condition and patroled by a standing military force, keeping the barracks in working condition, and keeping all troops armed and trained when most of the military forces have had to find other primary occupations. MacLeod has instituted a rotating schedule of "wall duty" to all army troops to make sure that the "militia" members of the army stay in practice. He keeps his best soldiers in command of wall forces and patroling the streets as members of the Guard. Dugan's first priority is the defense of home. While the concerns of the guard take up more of his time, he mainly wants an army capable of beating back the enemy hordes. While he officially does not support expansion, he privately dreams of leading a full-fledged, standing army out of the gates of Home. Something he has not seen in his lifetime. Dugan will often fund "scouting missions" to locate potential threats before they reach the walls of Home, but also to look for any lull in attacks so that he can consider making his dream a reality. Dugan has a bitter hatred of Greta Sweetlily, and by extension the criminal Syndicate. He sees her formation of the Market Security force as an affront to his station and to "justice". He is doubly annoyed by her meddling because he would much rather be managing his army instead of dealing guard issues, such as her interference. Should any of Dugan's troops or guardsmen be caught taking bribes or otherwise being corrupt, they are immediately removed from their post and put on Dugan's personal "black list" to be watched and hassled to keep their nose clean. If Dugan had his way, they'd be sent over the wall...via catapult. Dugan is not a forgiving man. Commodore Alexander Hayes, Human male - Naval Forces Hayes is well aware that his fleet, which is as much his sailors' homes as their work, depends on the council to stay afloat. He might be frustrated by the council's games at times, but he is careful to remain polite and civil. He doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds his people. He takes his job seriously, and he is talented at his craft. His captains are some of the best he could possibly have, spending their whole lives on the water, practicing, patroling, and producing incredible victories over larger enemy forces. He is also responsible for keeping the fishing fleets safe and productive. He does his job well, and for that he is well liked by his men, and nearly all the populace of Home. It isn't uncommon for disgruntled citizens of other districts to ask Hayes to take a more active position in the city council, but Hayes refuses to give up his ship and his post. The Commodore protects his people, above all else. This includes his sailors, the fishermen, the dock workers, and anyone else who keeps his fleet afloat. As far as he's concerned, his people are each worth ten of the "grounders". When a dispute arises between drunken sailors and a crowded tavern, Hayes will personally resolve the issue, pay for damages, and get his people out of hock. Oftentimes without even questioning his men. Hayes is a god to his people. Most refer to him as "Papa Lex", which Hayes finds to be slightly inappropriate, but rather endearing. Hayes has a better concept than most Home citizens what the world is like outside the city walls. Despite the dangers, he wants to take a chance at exploration by sea. He has quietly begun gathering support for such an endeavor, but knows that the biggest obstacle will be getting enough of his ships in working order, and gathering enough supplies to stock the ship chosen to explore, to actually make it a reality. If someone can help this process along, especially if they're willing to take up the sailing life, they would become one of "Papa Lex's" favored chosen, and would gain the benefits that entails. Headmaster Rialla Mariola, Elf female - Magical Defenses Rialla is tasked with managing the magical defenses of Home, but really couldn't care less about the council. She serves her own desires and her own ends, and what she desires most is power. Rialla spends most of her resources scrying for powerful magical artifacts in the wider world and funds expeditions to retrieve them so that they might be studied. She entertains hopes of becoming a major player in the world scale, and ruling over powerful forces to do her bidding. These plans don't necessarily include Home if she should find a better means to this end. Rialla makes no effort to hide her contempt for the other members of the council. She frequently refuses summons as she feels she has more important work to attend to. She is well entrenched in Home's College Arcane, and has either the support of or control over other prominent members of the college. She knows that there are none who could challenge her position, so she doesn't bother with pretenses of politeness. The cold-hearted Headmaster has discovered that the mythal that has protected home for untold centuries is failing. The magic is beginning to unravel and will not last for much longer. Rather than turning to the council, Rialla is more concerned with turning the situation to her advantage. Therefore she has not informed them of the state of the mythal. Rialla knows that it will take the sacrifice of a powerful magical artifact to restore the mythal, and has been seeking one via scrying and hired mercenaries. However, she is unsure if she should actually recharge the mythal. After all, if an object can be found that is powerful enough to restore the protective magic, perhaps such power could be put to more meaningful purposes. Like driving her own rise to power. Mother Abigal, Human female - Temple/Sanitation Mother Abigal is the head priestess of the temple (Housing District), and is a cleric of the deity the temple was originally built for (can be whatever god you wish). Her responsibilities are to maintain the health of the populace, both physcially and by keeping up morale. Unfortunately, Abigal cares more about increasing the prominence of her chosen deity (and by extension herself) than the well being of the populace. She wants to convert the masses, move the other shrines out of her temple, and generally show the world how wonderful and pious she is. She also wants to maintain her rather comfortable lifestyle as head priestess and member of the council. Mother Abigal is not well-liked by many other priests/priestesses, including those in her own faith. Criminal Syndicate NPCs Joana Ketch, Human female - Syndicate Leader Joana is a close associate of council member Greta, and runs her own private "red-light district" within the Market District. She keeps Greta in power and pays out bribes to her and her Market Security guardsmen. Joana sees herself as the true power in Home, and has a hand in all "extra-legal" activities that take place. Her current "projects" are to gain another "bought" member of the council via the upcoming Housing District elections and to firmly establish a second "entertainment" district on a nearby island for the sailors and fishermen. So far, both campaigns are going well. Ketch personally manages her Tavern/Brothel, and lives in a very luxurious flat that spans an entire floor of the building. She has a love of fine things, fine wine, and fine company (of all varieties). Ketch is rather young for her level of power (early 30s), making her accomplishments all the more impressive. Before her rise to power, there were multiple "thieve's guilds" that operated independantly. Now all guilds answer to her, and to the Syndicate. Dolf Brogerson, Dwarf male - Syndicate Candidate Dolf was originally a citizen of the Tunnel District, but fell out of favor from having too many Syndicate ties, and was effectively banned from the district. He has since become adept at glad handing, and has become the face man for the Syndicate in his bid for election in the Housing District. Dolf has promised better living conditions, and better pay. With Joss constantly repeating his useless message of "Everything is good! Don't rock the boat!", it will be a wonder if Dolf doesn't win the next election. Or at least, that Joss will lose it to him. Dolf doesn't have any real power, but he knows people, and he's greedy. He is far from above taking bribes when he sees a profit in it. Just as long as the Syndicate bribes come first, this practice of his won't be questioned. Quintus Janelle, Elf male - Syndicate Assassin Quintus is not a common thug or enforcer. He will not be the one who confronts you in an ally or engages in a masterful display of swordsmanship with a heroic do-gooder. Quintus is the one who will poison your wine, slit your throat when you're asleep, or shoot you down from a distance with a single shot. Quintus only strikes to kill, and never in a way that you'll see him coming. That's what makes him so terrifying. Between jobs, Quintus lounges in Joana Ketch's brothel, drinking fine wines and enjoying the company of various wenches. He will avoid any direct confrontation, but will never forget an insult, and will usually reply to any affront with a dagger in the kidney when it is least expected. Quintus is a simple elf with a dangerous reputation. He is not to be trifled with, at least not unless you plan to make sure he's dead the first time you face him. Misc. Meaningful NPCs Lt. Suriel Cooper, Half-elf male - Barracks liason Cooper is the official outfitter of mercenaries and contact person for scouting missions both official and unofficial. Surel has been approached by Syndicate envoys and felt out for being "bought", but he replied that he simply "does not give a damn" what went on once somebody left his office or who needed to leave Home and why. His job is to make sure those persons get an official stamp from somewhere, get outfitted to do the job they need to do, and that the right mercenaries get assigned to jobs they can handle. No more, no less. The Syndicate was satisfied with his answer, and he has been officially declared "hands off". Cooper may not be overly principled, but he is generally good natured. He enjoys a good joke and a tall pint of ale. He won't give a job to an adventurer that he doesn't think is up to the task. He is generally a good guy. Lil' Jimmy, Halfling male - Skiff Owner/Captain "LJ" is the owner of a small fishing Skiff that often takes on work for Cooper doing the risky job of dropping troops of along the shore and then picking them back up when they're ready to return. He is far from the only ship owner to do this (it's a good way to make some quick money), but he is especially well-liked and known for being speedy in his work. LJ is, simply put, a terrible fisherman. The work bores him, and if he hadn't inherited his skiff, dubbed the Freespinner, from his father, he probably would have chosen another line of work. But he enjoys the thrill and danger that comes from working with the mercenaries and landing on the shore. His only other crew is his sometimes-girlfriend Sarah (halfling female), who is probably the only one in Home who calls him "Jim". When he's not working, LJ has taken to visiting the "fishing village" run by the Syndicate on a nearby island. LJ and Sarah are usually fine drinking partners and good natured. Paal Baker, Half-orc male - Revolutionary Baker is an out-of-work docksman with a bad temper. His entire life he has been ****** on, even by the other docksmen. Sick of his lot in life, Baker began very publically calling for violent revolution in home. Surprisingly (at least, to him), his calls were answered quite vigorously. Persons who barely noticed him before now talk to him with respect, and he is held up as a visionary among the docks-folk. Someone who won't lie down and take what was given to him, but wanted more. Drunk with his new popularity (and often the free drinks such popularity buys him) Paal is really getting into the spirit of being a revolutionary. He's stirring up the docks-folk and has even begun leading them in short clashes against the city guards. Whether he realizes it or not, Paal is gearing the docks up for an all out war with the other districts. Silvia Fletcher is doing her best to keep the populace in order, but Baker isn't making it easy. Paal is decended from one of the few persons of monstrous blood that was allowed in Home when the gates were sealed. There are even fewer now after generations of breeding with the mostly human populace, thinning the orc blood even more. He takes any mention of his heritage personally. Major World Villains Archduke Malebonte, Tiefling male - Devilish Cities The Archduke is the voice of the Devil overlords and chief administrator of the small Devil kingdom that has developed to the far north-east of Home. Malebronte, while he has no power over what the Devils choose to do to entertain themselves, has a surprising amount of influence on policies in the hellish kingdom and over the generals under his command. He knows better than to act above his station, and has no real desire to challenge his overlords, but is vicious when dealing with underlings, and eager to expand his influence. To the Archduke, Home is next to meaningless. He wants all local monstrous tribes under his control, and the Lich king to the Southeast finally under heel. Home only comes up to him when a monstrous general decides that they want to break ranks attack the last city. He finds this annoying, but knows they will most likely return battered but still willing to serve. Only if one of his underlings should be successful in capturing Home would he then take a real interest in it. He would want to crush the upstart general before he could threaten the Archduke's order. Chief Gruumar, Orc male - Renegade Monstrous Army Sick of Malebronte's influence, Gruumar gathered his supporters (which were vast and of varying races) and simply left the battlefields where he had been fighting the undead horde. Promising glory and a new land free from overlords, Gruumar led his forces right up to the mountain roost of a most fearsome red dragon, and destroyed the beast in an epic battle. Splitting the hoard of gems and jewels with his underlings, Gruumar took the bulk of the wealth and invested it in converting the mountain into a defensible fort and city. Gruumar and his followers live off the land, plunder from passing Devil and Undead warbands, and generally want nothing to do with anyone else. His popularity, grown from slaying the red dragon, is often enough to influence other monstrous warbands to join his cause. Home, to Gruumar, is just one more potential "overlord" not to be trusted. Lord Viengesh, Undead Lich (formely male) - Undead Horde Lord Viengesh has gone somewhat insane. When, many generations ago, he first began his campaign against the goodly races, he sought new magics and hidden knowledge that would grant him great power. But, after years of immersing his will in controlling the massive undead armies under his command, his singular purpose has become conquest for the sake of conquest. The world is broken, and he has chosen to remake it in eternal, undead perfection. Nothing else mattes, and nothing will distract him from this goal. Viengesh sits upon his great throne, made entirely from the bones of his enemies, guiding his mindless horde with the sheer force of his will. The only intelligent underlings in his employ are his vampire and death knight generals and none dare challenge his awesome power. He wants nothing less than to bring about the end of all things. He can't remember why, but he has no use for doubts, especially as he is now so very close to victory. The destruction of Home would finally put an end to his original campaign, and fuel his forces with enough magical artifacts and corpses to put an end to the Devilish invaders. --- Phew! And that's that! I'd love for people to suggest their own key NPCs or even alternate councils or world enemies. I will copy this post (in an sblock) into the first post (assuming it fits).
Tovec 10-27-07, 02:58 PM	To Warweaver, I think that most the things would work well in a situation where there is enough infrastructure to work it but in this campaign I think that they are fools hopes. Also about the "is everyone adventurers" how would masses of commoners suddenly get PC levels? I think its unrealistic, no matter how wanted, for people to become adventurers just for space. I would suggest that Home have some infrastructure but not enough to launch raids against rival ship-yards or to keep schools of scryers working at all times. Also I agree that magic should be restricted and used in the defence of home but to make it illegal seems a little harsh, especially when for Any offence the punishment is being dropped off into the wild. Actually I was just thinking what real benefit is there to being rich? I mean trade is relatively useless and thats how many made money unless they were lords and in such a time of desperation a lord demanding money of the poor would seem like a major cause to overthrow him. As for the water, sea, ocean, lake for all it matters, I think that you are right Fo in that there should be enough for fishing and repair but not military vessels. The party may want to create some measure of warship but there shouldn't be something made already. As for beyond local waters I don't think it really matters what is out there. Home is worried about defending itself not exploring, the few ships they do have would not be able to work on the open seas and so long as you can't see the other side of the water's mass I don't think it really matters. I think that magic items should not be created to have. I think that the probably few magic equippers, magic blacksmiths or armoursmiths or what not, would make things as needed, and they are probably constantly needed. Especially with a standing army and constant attacks? They would be working as often as possible upgrading, fixing, creating new swords, armour, shields, bows, axes, whatever. This doesn't even count the magic item makers, the magic ring makers, etc. If anything Home would have many but again they would be working at all times to try and make as much as possible for use probably by the army or by the other mages and wouldn't have much left over for stockpiling. I do agree with Warweaver about currency. Most things would be based off diplomacy, need, orders from the council and gold pieces would have little real value unless someone wanted gold. One thing, while I think the council would have edict over many of the functions of the city I don't see how they could and would be all present over things like someone wanting to leave the city via a boat. If the harbour is and the open-seas aren't then its really the boat Captain's call if he feels safe enough to go out and risk his life, his ship, his crew and his business/livelihood. Like I said before in times of Surviving, exploring takes a back seat. They would probably explore if survivors came to Home, as I suggest Home starts for the party, and tell of another point of light or something that Home can know about and try and go find but other then that defend the city don't explore. As to the 1,2,3 of before. 1. I didn't like the idea of massive planar creatures in the first place. But that being said they would still be here trying to dominate and burn all that they see as they did back home. Why come to the material? Why go to Elysium? To hack and burn and kill and dominate and just create general evil for the sake of evil. 2. While Home may not be any good as slaves they are the last bastion of civilization. They are all that is left and while fighting each-other for a bit of land is all well and good every once in a while its fun to focus on that last slice of good to turn it bad once and for all. 3. Like I already said, the monstrosities would just make their homes in the crushing lands. Turning it from the lush green to burnt red. Altering it to their liking and even fighting one another to keep their little swath of evil. ps. Pelor is NG not CG, the comment about Pelor's sun going to Hextor. How was Hextor able to grab Pelor's sun? Did healing go to Nerull?
Delfedd 10-27-07, 10:24 PM	I'd put more monsterous races in the council, make things seem more desperate. They are allying with things that they normally would not.
fodigg 10-28-07, 09:13 PM	One thing, while I think the council would have edict over many of the functions of the city I don't see how they could and would be all present over things like someone wanting to leave the city via a boat. If the harbour is and the open-seas aren't then its really the boat Captain's call if he feels safe enough to go out and risk his life, his ship, his crew and his business/livelihood. As the safety of all of Home depends on keeping the unwanted out, any point where entry or exit to or from the city is allowed would be heavily regulated. The council would officially be in charge of this, but only in the sense of setting up policies. Not every potential adventurer or explorer would have to stand before the council and state their case. They'd just have to talk to Lt. Cooper or someone like him. If you wanted to get out on the sly, speaking directly to a friendly ship captain such as LJ or seeking the help of the syndicate are also options. I'd put more monsterous races in the council, make things seem more desperate. They are allying with things that they normally would not. While this is a real possibility and an interesting twist to occur in the course of a campaign, I don't see how I can reasonably do so from the beginning. Home is an incredibly insular community that was originally formed of almost exclusively non-monstrous races (a few half-orcs, half-ogres and the like), and after generations of life in Home with no immigration into the populace, the monstrous blood would slowly be thinned out of the populace if only from interbreeding with humans. Paal Baker the revolutionary is probably not the son of a full orc and a human, but has a mess of half-orc and human heritage with possibly the occasional full-blooded orc. But I do think that your idea has merit in the context of action within the game. If a heroic party (the PCs) push for integrating nearby monstrous hordes or allying with Chief Gruumar (if they can convince the paranoid old orc to do so), I think the sudden influx of monstrous humanoids into Home would be an interesting plot twist. Imagine the docks-folk's outrage over bringing in new bodies when they don't even have work. Any sub-community of monstrous humanoids would probably stake out their own section of the city and require representation on the council. Any alliance with Gruumar would likely result in a representative of the orc-chief sitting on the defense council. If you want to start with these alliances already in place, I would have them as a result of recent events, with the community still unsure of this new development and their new allies.
Tovec 10-28-07, 10:45 PM	While this is a real possibility and an interesting twist to occur in the course of a campaign, I don't see how I can reasonably do so from the beginning. Home is an incredibly insular community that was originally formed of almost exclusively non-monstrous races (a few half-orcs, half-ogres and the like), and after generations of life in Home with no immigration into the populace, the monstrous blood would slowly be thinned out of the populace if only from interbreeding with humans. Wait. If the party starts outside Home, as I thought you were leaning, how long were they wandering around once civilization fell? Generations? By that point I would hope the PCs would be given free high levelled bonuses to survival. I like the idea of at some point getting allies of maybe weaker monstrous races, such as orcs as you said, to come into Home. It could be one of those defining human(oid) moments where even monsters want to start a new life and defend Home from the ravages of the world outside.
Delfedd 10-29-07, 01:04 AM	Fodigg, In Lords of Creation, we had a cataclysm just recently. We where wondering if we can use the idea of Home in this campaign setting.
Reginald 10-29-07, 10:22 AM	Nice idea. You could perhaps take some ideas for this campaign from stargate or stargate atlantis. For the empowerment of the mytal, an ancient energy source is needed, because the current energy source is nearly depleted. So very often adventuring teams are being send out to locations rumored to hold one of these energy sources. Perhaps in the fabled other city that is still standing, archmagi have discovered a new way of creating these energy sources, but they do not possess a mytal and would do anything to acquire it, even destroy Home. If Home would acquire the technology to create the energy source, they could finally free up soldiers from the defense of the city and start taking back territory of the enemy. This could happen later on in the campaign.
fodigg 10-29-07, 11:09 AM	Fodigg, In Lords of Creation, we had a cataclysm just recently. We where wondering if we can use the idea of Home in this campaign setting. I think that would be fantastic! :) I posted this idea with the hope that people would alter it and use it in their own campaigns. Wait. If the party starts outside Home, as I thought you were leaning, how long were they wandering around once civilization fell? Generations? By that point I would hope the PCs would be given free high levelled bonuses to survival. I like the idea of at some point getting allies of maybe weaker monstrous races, such as orcs as you said, to come into Home. It could be one of those defining human(oid) moments where even monsters want to start a new life and defend Home from the ravages of the world outside. I'm operating with the assumption that the party is still starting in Home. If you did want to start them outside of Home (which would be very interesting IMO), then my guess is that they would have generations behind them of hiding in caves and living small. Starting them at a slightly higher level would make sense in such a setup, especially as the citizens of Home would expect them to be incredible warriors to have survived for so long (even if that's not necessarily the case, they should have some skills from harsh living). Level 3 would probably be enough of a nudge, or around there. Nice idea. You could perhaps take some ideas for this campaign from stargate or stargate atlantis. For the empowerment of the mytal, an ancient energy source is needed, because the current energy source is nearly depleted. So very often adventuring teams are being send out to locations rumored to hold one of these energy sources. Perhaps in the fabled other city that is still standing, archmagi have discovered a new way of creating these energy sources, but they do not possess a mytal and would do anything to acquire it, even destroy Home. If Home would acquire the technology to create the energy source, they could finally free up soldiers from the defense of the city and start taking back territory of the enemy. This could happen later on in the campaign. That would be a really interesting campaign for the PCs. By acquiring the energy source, the forces of Home can move away from the "adventurer" setup (small strike teams) and can create a real army.
Drinkie 10-29-07, 02:29 PM	I think that would be fantastic! :) I posted this idea with the hope that people would alter it and use it in their own campaigns. I'm also putting serious thought into using this in my current campaign. I originally took a couple ideas from the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign and was running with it. (IE: I read 5 pages of it, and went "Cool!" and then made of the rest on my own.) I was planning on the PCs having to thwart Tharizdun when he released seriously buffed up titans (not the generic ones in the MM, I mean like epic greek mythology titans :mage:) to destroy the world. But I really, really like this idea, so I'm debating having the PC fail somewhere along the line and get stuck in a time warp of some sort. :plotting: When they come out, Home and this world is the result. Then I'll make some stuff up with the general idea being for them to drive the Tharizdun followers back to the planes and reclaim the world.
fodigg 10-29-07, 03:00 PM	But I really, really like this idea, so I'm debating having the PC fail somewhere along the line and get stuck in a time warp of some sort. :plotting: How about a mage who knows the mythal is failing (and that Home's days are numbered) uses experiemental magics to reach back and grab a group of legendary heroes of days past, before civilization fell. Unfortunately, she reached back just a little bit too far, and instead of getting the epic, badass PCs she was hoping for, she got the PCs at the level they currently are in your campaign. Still, the epic heroes of legend should be able to save Home, right? Right?
Drinkie 10-29-07, 08:04 PM	How about a mage who knows the mythal is failing (and that Home's days are numbered) uses experiemental magics to reach back and grab a group of legendary heroes of days past, before civilization fell. Unfortunately, she reached back just a little bit too far, and instead of getting the epic, badass PCs she was hoping for, she got the PCs at the level they currently are in your campaign. Still, the epic heroes of legend should be able to save Home, right? Right? Wow, I'm almost speechless. I can so make that work. So, I can extrapolate on what I currently had in mind, which was for the PCs to become totally awesome and stop the God. But I mean, they're still PCs, and he's still a god. So of course he will try again. His second attempt, the PCs are long dead, and this is where Home comes in. Now I just have to solve the paradox of how the PCs thwarted him the first time if they get called into the future to kill him the second time. Maybe they'll get sent back after cleaning up Home, to do what they know they already did. Except then they'll actually be the right level to take on the titans anyway. This should work out really well, I even already have some NPCs they'll have met that will be around in the future too. (Yeah, archons live a long time, right?)
Tacitus_Acheros 10-30-07, 12:59 AM	First off: fodigg, excellent idea for a campaign. And now on to business... "What Can Necromancy Do For You?" Seriously, in the sort of situation Home is in, Necromancy provides too many benefits to just ban--it should be a part of the city's magical arsenal. Warweaver had the right idea with clerics of Wee Jas raising undead reinforcements for critical defenses, but what about the rest of the implications? A highly-expendable (and cheap) labor force for dangerous battlefield engineering A way to use resources that would otherwise be wasted through burning or burial. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Similarly, a way to get some good out of criminals or prisoners instead of just dumping them back outside or letting them sponge resources in jail A source of "cannon fodder," front-line troops that go down in droves but keep the enemy busy while the rest of your army gets into position A type of "suicidal" hit squad. Rather than risk living troops, create some mid-level undead and send them after enemy commanders during battle or while they're camped near the city. For an added bonus, give them equipment/enchantments to turn them into unliving bombs for extra mayhem. I'm sure there was a Liber Mortis feat that let you craft exploding skellies... Heck, since (most) undead don't need to eat or sleep, why not offer incentives for high-level characters to "join the Undying Guardians" as intelligent undead? It'd be a shame for people of their caliber to just die, after all. The only real downside (from the city's point of view anyway) would be the danger of rival clerics getting control of Home's undead comrades, but so long as Home's clerics could counter them, necromancy could help even the odds a little. Sure, you might have to undertake an extensive PR campaign to convince John Q. Public that giving dearly departed Grandma a pike and telling her to charge the demons is the right thing to do, but, as they say, desperate times... "Even in death I still serve!"
fodigg 10-30-07, 12:08 PM	Interesting idea Tacitus! I wanted to avoid making Home a one-city version of Karnnath (spelling?) from the Eberron setting, so I did not include undead as a part of the city's forces. The fact that one of the primary enemies of Home is an undead legion (in my version anyway) also made me think that Home would shy away from necromancy, fearful that the lich would find a way to turn their forces against them. For these reasons I personally would not include necromancy in Home, but if you choose to, there are a lot of interesting things you could do with it. What if the "killing field" was populated by undead under control of Home's necromancers? Creating a standing army for them to defend with? They could raise their enemies and increase their undead infantry after each failed invasion, granting them an opportunity for a real push into enemy territory. There's a lot you can do with the concept if you go in that direction.
Tovec 10-30-07, 06:01 PM	How about a mage who knows the mythal is failing (and that Home's days are numbered) uses experiemental magics to reach back and grab a group of legendary heroes of days past, before civilization fell. Unfortunately, she reached back just a little bit too far, and instead of getting the epic, badass PCs she was hoping for, she got the PCs at the level they currently are in your campaign. Still, the epic heroes of legend should be able to save Home, right? Right? This mage is un-epic enough to not know how to fix the item protecting the city but uber-epic enough to know how to get great heroes from the past? I have a suggestion more likely. Mistake on a True Res. If the caster of the True Res does it wrong they can bring back someone who died, for whatever reason, in the past by accident. This works better then trying to bring back someone who lived in the past, grew up, died and bringing them back as young people. Its a possibility for what I was going to run for one of my campaigns. I'm probably looking at some sort of device that brings them into the future then some kind of reverse wish-true res to bring them back. Its still in the works. * A highly-expendable (and cheap) labor force for dangerous battlefield engineering * A way to use resources that would otherwise be wasted through burning or burial. Reduce, reuse, recycle. * Similarly, a way to get some good out of criminals or prisoners instead of just dumping them back outside or letting them sponge resources in jail * A source of "cannon fodder," front-line troops that go down in droves but keep the enemy busy while the rest of your army gets into position * A type of "suicidal" hit squad. Rather than risk living troops, create some mid-level undead and send them after enemy commanders during battle or while they're camped near the city. For an added bonus, give them equipment/enchantments to turn them into unliving bombs for extra mayhem. I'm sure there was a Liber Mortis feat that let you craft exploding skellies... Um, 1. Okay, I buy that. 2. Sure. 3. Are you saying that criminals be killed, regardless of crime, and turned into undead? That might take extra PR. 4. Cannon Fodder is good too. 5. I would draw the line at Not Grandma. I'd find something. Quick question, cheap labour force? That's going to make the dock-people happy :D
Drinkie 10-30-07, 06:31 PM	3. Are you saying that criminals be killed, regardless of crime, and turned into undead? That might take extra PR. Given I'm not Tacitus, but I think he meant something more along the lines of: Anyone who receives a harsh enough sentence is to be put to death and raised as undead. Not a big deal for those meant to be executed, a wise use of resources for those meant to be imprisoned for long periods of time. Home can hardly afford to feed the criminals that aren't safe to be put to work. To clarify, I think Home should have two modes: parole/community service, and execution followed by some necromancy. You can make a nice story-arc out of this by having an NPC the PCs know wind up on trial. Perhaps he is borderline on the parole/death boundary and the PCs find out the judge intends to make an example of him.
redodysseus 10-31-07, 12:34 AM	In the beginning of the post you asked for the size of some historical cities. Well, I just ran across some so here they are. In the 11thC Constantinople's, by far the largest city in Europe, walls enclosed 3520 acres, about 5 1/2 miles circumference. Population about one million. Milan's, the next largest city in Europe, walls eclosed 283 acres, pop. 100K. Paris was a mere twenty acres pop. 30K (Lopez, The Birth of Europe, 131). Athens in 476, after the Persian sack, built walls with a circumference of 4 miles, pop. 100K. Rome, until Augustus was approximiately 4 miles in length and 1 mile in width, pop. 3/4 million (The Oxford Companion to Classical Civilization).
Tacitus_Acheros 10-31-07, 12:55 AM	Interesting idea Tacitus! I wanted to avoid making Home a one-city version of Karnnath (spelling?) from the Eberron setting, so I did not include undead as a part of the city's forces. The fact that one of the primary enemies of Home is an undead legion (in my version anyway) also made me think that Home would shy away from necromancy, fearful that the lich would find a way to turn their forces against them. Karnnath? Forgive me, I'm not familiar with Eberron. But yes, the whole necromancy tactic is weak against an enemy undead army. Presumably a corps of high-level clerics might be able to "police" the front line to keep friendly skellies from defecting, and there's probably a combination of spells that could help out too...but if the arch-lich came knocking, it may be easiest to just lock Home's undead defenders in a vault somewhere until the battle's over. Sure, they wouldn't be helping at all, but the city wouldn't be any worse off than it would be otherwise, and you could still employ necromantic forces against more conventional enemies. 5. I would draw the line at Not Grandma. I'd find something. Quick question, cheap labour force? That's going to make the dock-people happy :D Hey, it's not like you're using Grandma for anything! Stop being selfish and serve the greater good! Ideally the population will have been educated that this sort of sacrifice is a noble and patriotic act, so she'd be happy that the state gave her animate bones a pointy stick and sent her earthly remains on a kamikaze attack. As for the dock people and labor issues: for the socio-economic well-being of the citizens, it probably wouldn't be a good idea for the city to employ undead blue-collar workers (even if it would be much more efficient--heck, you'd probably end up with surplus citizens). The skelly work crews ought to be doing the jobs too dangerous for the living work force, like digging trenches or clearing kill zones outside the city walls. Although if undead workers became a major source of competition within the city's, you'd get some hilarious protests and demonstrations... Given I'm not Tacitus, but I think he meant something more along the lines of: Anyone who receives a harsh enough sentence is to be put to death and raised as undead. Not a big deal for those meant to be executed, a wise use of resources for those meant to be imprisoned for long periods of time. Home can hardly afford to feed the criminals that aren't safe to be put to work. To clarify, I think Home should have two modes: parole/community service, and execution followed by some necromancy. You can make a nice story-arc out of this by having an NPC the PCs know wind up on trial. Perhaps he is borderline on the parole/death boundary and the PCs find out the judge intends to make an example of him. Actually, you've pretty much said what I would have, had you not beat me to it. Though crime rates would probably drop if every infraction resulted in the death penalty/post-mortem work program... Hmm, I'm slowly morphing Home's defensive-minded democracy into a totalitarian, necromantic slave state. Truly the dark arts corrupt everything they touch.
Neutronium_Dragon 10-31-07, 02:17 AM	It'd be tempting to work this as a scenario which fast forwards a few times, as the populace of Home is driven over the brink by their conditions and slowly degenerates while the monsters who now control the rest of the world settle down in their new territories and begin to make use of them. At the outset it's the heroic, last-defense Home vs the world of savage monsters, but by the time the last fast-forward takes place it's the world of civilized gnolls, orcs, and so on and their fight to stamp out the corruption which emanates from the vile bastion by the sea...
fodigg 10-31-07, 01:24 PM	This mage is un-epic enough to not know how to fix the item protecting the city but uber-epic enough to know how to get great heroes from the past? Good point. But I would think that it would be simple enough to say that she has stumbled across an item that grants wishes, have her wish that the heroes of old were around to help them, and suddenly they appear before her, but not as she was hoping. She could find a magic lamp or something. Or stumble across a previously unknown ability of the mythal, that dries up when she uses it. Makes it interesting when you ask how the heroes are going to get home. :) In the beginning of the post you asked for the size of some historical cities. Well, I just ran across some so here they are. In the 11thC Constantinople's, by far the largest city in Europe, walls enclosed 3520 acres, about 5 1/2 miles circumference. Population about one million. Milan's, the next largest city in Europe, walls eclosed 283 acres, pop. 100K. Paris was a mere twenty acres pop. 30K (Lopez, The Birth of Europe, 131). Athens in 476, after the Persian sack, built walls with a circumference of 4 miles, pop. 100K. Rome, until Augustus was approximiately 4 miles in length and 1 mile in width, pop. 3/4 million (The Oxford Companion to Classical Civilization). Thanks a lot! I really appreciate it! How would people feel about a 4 mile diameter for the city, including the "land" of the docks?
Drinkie 11-01-07, 03:57 AM	How would people feel about a 4 mile diameter for the city, including the "land" of the docks? Based on that info, 4 miles seems reasonable. That's a lot of room for the PCs to test how well you built the world though. :twitch: Since we're getting into the physical dimensions of the city, what shape do you think it would be? The shape affects a lot about the layout and defense of the city.
fodigg 11-01-07, 12:17 PM	Based on that info, 4 miles seems reasonable. That's a lot of room for the PCs to test how well you built the world though. :twitch: Since we're getting into the physical dimensions of the city, what shape do you think it would be? The shape affects a lot about the layout and defense of the city. I was thinking a circle with walls all around it, but a full third of that circle sits out over the water on the docks. The walls on land are far more impressive, and the walls at the far side of the docks, where ships land and are repaired, are the least impressive. (Meaning a certain undead horde might use that as an invasion point.) The walls on land should be massive (height), and there should be arrow slits dotting it, especially higher up. The walls would be incredibly thick towards the base, and the gate would have been walled off long ago. The gate should be the hardest point to breach on the wall, as extra attention would have been given to reinforcing it, since the gate is traditionally the biggest target. As for the districts: Docks: Obviously over the water. Walled off from the rest of the city except for specific access points. (East half of city) Housing: Connected to the docks and taking up a portion of the city center (the unofficial "temple district"), this should be a large disctrict geographically. Market: Meeting with the Housing District and wrapping around city center, this should also be another large district. The Market district is insulated from the wall and from the gate/barracks area by the Industry district. The unofficial "red light district" is also within the Market district, located close to the border with the Housing district. Industry: This should be a relative small district, and should run along the inside of the wall. Not all forges and whatnot should be located in this district, but the majority of them should be. These are not commercial laborers, but the men who equip the army, repair the wall, and do anything else to keep Home running. It also serves as a barrier between the wall and the populace. If something (a catapult for example) falls from the wall, it won't hit a house. Royal: The Royal district is on the northern side of the city, with part of it insulated from the wall by the Industry district, but some of it hitting the wall itself. It is also adjacent to the Docks district, but there are no access points from one to the other, and the wall between them is thickly constructed. City Center: The only "open' part of the city is the city center. City center borders the great temple, includes an open square that is filled with the happy image of playing children right next to the sad image of the homeless shifting about with nowhere else to go (except the Docks). A building housing the council meeting rooms should be within city center, as well as the entrence to the Tunnel District. Tunnel District This district is accessed from city center, and the spans a smaller area then the larger city, mainly focused in the middle of the city. The one branching tunnel is the secret escape tunnel, which goes straight east, away from the sea. Here is my badly drawn map: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/dynamego/HmeEL.gif Obviously, that's a rough area map. Lines wouldn't be so smooth, streets wouldn't be very orderly, and important buildings and locations would be scattered all over the place. And, with all things, this is only an example. Not shown on that map: The barracks, which is the center of the guard/military would be located at the gates of the city, on the far eastern side (the right side of the map). The Ship berths would be on the extreme west part of the docks district (far left on the map) and just outside the city walls. The Syndicate headquarters would be somewhere within the Red light district There would obviously be more than 3 access points between the docks and the city, but these would be the general locations of the well known/major ones. Guards would be posted at these to observe traffic. The college arcane would be somewhere within the Royal district.
taradusis 11-03-07, 11:40 AM	A beholder mage could use it's disintergrate eye ray to carve miles of tunnels?
Alexeduardo 11-03-07, 01:04 PM	Wow cool idea, fodigg. I might contribute later (ont get your hopes too high)
fodigg 11-05-07, 10:53 AM	A beholder mage could use it's disintergrate eye ray to carve miles of tunnels? Aren't beholders loners?
Warweaver 11-09-07, 10:03 PM	Hi all, I've been away from this thread a while but I'll see if I can contribute. 1) On the topic of undead, this has all kinds of interesting ramifications. In my homebrew, the "Deathless Guard" is left in a special Wee Jas-controlled graveyard, and brought out only for wartime. Those willing to help the cause sign the Deathless Contract, a blood contract that promises to donate their body to the cause in the event of their death. In exchange they receive 300gp (or more for those of higher military rank or HD), and they can select next of kin to receive a bunch more when their body is retrieved and reanimated. Now this probably doesn't sound worth it to a PC with the chance of being raised, but for Joe Blo the 1st level Commoner, it's a fortune. In an overpopulated city, the government might not even bother with a clause that says you can't off yourself martyr-like to feed your family. In a place that's constantly at war like Home, including undead could be more tricky. Zombies would be much less desirable than Skeletons - sure they're stronger and tougher, but the rot would cause health problems in such a crowded area. Also, a society would go through many years of distaste before they could get used to the sight of humanoid skeletons doing work alongside people - realistically, such a sight would be unnerving to anyone who hadn't grown up with it. Still, the not-sleeping/eating/etc. advantage for menial work might be worth it, and I love the idea of people protesting the undead taking their jobs. Intelligent undead go evil almost universally, so I'd stick to the mindless ones if I was a Home cleric. :P As for their use in war, fighting a Lich King's army with undead is, as Fodigg stated, a Very Bad Idea. Even if his clerics aren't inherently better at controlling undead (since many of them are probably undead themselves), he almost certainly has a lot more that can channel negative energy than the "good guys". And remember, you turn/rebuke nearest undead first. 2) I might be misremembering, but didn't you say Home was situated on a seaside cliff, Fodigg? In that case, it would be neat if the Docks District actually took up more surface area than the entire rest of the city, as it is built with ramps, stairways, tunnels, and freight pulleys down the cliff-side, and then the actual docks expand out at sea level. Getting down to the actual docks could be a real ordeal for those who don't live there, with tiny cliffside shops and bars built looking right over the ocean - not to mention the entire Docks community has to work together when there's a storm, to secure all the cliff mechanisms and stores from damage. 3) Beholders are indeed very xenophobic, even with their own kind. (As you can see from my avatar, I'm a little obsessed with them.) The only exception to this is a Beholder Hive, where a Hive Mother makes them work together. It would be interesting to have a powerful member of the College Arcane dominate a Beholder, or enchant it somehow to see everyone in Home as Beholders, and the dominating Wizard (Mindbender PrC anyone?) as its Hive Mother. Not everyone would like this plan (what if it beats the Will save in a populated area!), but it would exponentially increase the vitality of the Tunnel District. Again, great work Fodigg, those NPCs are neat. It's tricky coming up with NPCs for an "open source setting", but I think you pulled it off.
fodigg 11-10-07, 02:42 PM	Again, great work Fodigg, those NPCs are neat. It's tricky coming up with NPCs for an "open source setting", but I think you pulled it off. Thanks! And great thoughts on the undead. I just realized that many of the benefits of undead could be applied to having a construct army, or even a warforged army if you wanted to get all eberron.
Delfedd 11-13-07, 12:58 AM	Except for resources. The fact that each warforged needs 200+ pounds of material to create is a difficulty. Here's a thought. The warforged... forge thing is the only one remaining, and that's why the monsters attack home.
Warweaver 11-13-07, 02:53 AM	And the dwarves in the Tunnel District might be supplying the ore and stone for their construction, using what they dig out in making more tunnels (only the choices, high-quality bits though). Perhaps this Artifact that generates the mythal is the same building-size object that creates the warforged, or were at least created by the same original makers of Home. Maybe the warforged lose their animating force beyond the mythal - which makes them excellent for defense and manual labor, but useless for any real victory (if that's even on anyone's minds at this point). This adds the problem that if the mythal dies, so do the warforged. As for warforged PCs, perhaps they can leave Home with special magic items made to mimic the mythal (but are too expensive to outfit all the warforged) - or perhaps they have to eat magic items or spells to survive. If said PC ever found out about the mythal's dire situation, he/she/it would be devoted to solving the problem *and* incensed at those who kept the truth from their warforged "brethren". Or you could just have the warforged be non-sentient defenders and workers from Home's past, as mysterious in their original purpose as the mythal itself. Or to butter your bread both ways, perhaps a warforged PC is the first sentient one - a glitch in the forge caused by the failing mythal's ever-more-chaotic energies. What a lonely, ripe-for-RP situation that would be. Constructs vs Undead makes a lot of sense from a war standpoint - an undead army would tend to use a lot of fear/poison/neg. energy effects that their own troops are immune to, but so are constructs...it could help explain why so much of the continent is decimated, but not Home. (I've only read a little of Eberron, so I apologize if any of this is derivative.)
Colour_Deaf 11-13-07, 07:45 AM	A thought occurs for a good Adventurer job - Scrappers. They go out to towns (particularly those destroyed by Undead, rather than Monstrous creatures, and take anything they can carry that's metal - they can be melted down and remade into things like weapons, armour, hell, even nails, and so many other useful things without digging even further into the mine's resources. They can be given a licesnce by the Council, which allows them to travel outside the city and return (while being checked at every possible oppurtunity to make sure they're not smuggling illegal things and people in), gives the PCs a job, as well as rewards in money through by-the-pound scrap.
fodigg 11-13-07, 10:17 AM	I think that "resource runs" would indeed include scavenging of any equipment, metal or other useful items from destroyed towns. In fact, while NPCs might be doing that (and adventurers running guard duty), the adventurers would be going on more dangerous/rewarding "resource runs" for magical/powerful items. And the idea of a "tamed guardian" outside the walls is a good one, regardless of what that turns out to be. Some ideas: Undead Unintelligent Constructs Warforged Binded elementals Monstrous pack of animals (feed them by throwing food over the wall and they'll stick around, probably attacking anyone who approaches the walls as they're defending their food source) Friendly dragon that patrols area around Home Deathless (positive energy undead) Aquatic monsters in some kind of moat etc.
Colour_Deaf 11-13-07, 11:43 AM	Hmmm.... I quite like the idea of a flock of gargolyes perched on the battlements of Home...
fodigg 11-13-07, 12:59 PM	Hmmm.... I quite like the idea of a flock of gargolyes perched on the battlements of Home... Oh I like that! It would provide an opportunity to really describe the way Home looks visually. The DM could give elaborate descriptions of the living statues and gargoyles that cover the massive wall. Depending on how they are described, it can vastly alter the feel of home.
Consul Vido 11-14-07, 06:04 PM	I absolutely love this idea. I was looking for an idea for my next game and I definitely found it. I like the idea of constructs defending the city, and possibly also being workers. Who needs aquatic friends, when you can have golems walk down to the sea bed to harvest kelp and baskets of fish? The Mythal. What if it was created by an epic spell that cost the caster his/her life. The Mage's body is still visible encased in a glowing crystal which floats over the council chamber. The Mage who created it has even become something of a religious figure, with a cult of followers who pray to him/her as The Guardian. What if the Mythal requires more living energy to sustain itself? Each previous archmage has eventually used the ritual to renew the mythal and also become entombed within it's surface, becoming saints to the people. The current arch-mage knows the spells involved (it is passed down to all the arch-mages) but has no intention of eventually sacrificing herself to restore the powerful magics within. And with all this life energy magic going around, perhaps the golems are also created with the souls of the dying? Granny's got a new shiny iron body!
fodigg 11-15-07, 11:11 AM	What if the Mythal requires more living energy to sustain itself? Each previous archmage has eventually used the ritual to renew the mythal and also become entombed within it's surface, becoming saints to the people. The current arch-mage knows the spells involved (it is passed down to all the arch-mages) but has no intention of eventually sacrificing herself to restore the powerful magics within. The source wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_wall)! :D http://www.iki.fi/~watchman/turner.jpg This is another great idea! I also like your twist on constructs. It kind of combines the feel of the undead with constructs. (nobody really dies, they get put to work)
Delfedd 11-15-07, 10:28 PM	Instead of "biting the dust" or "kicking the bucket", whenever someone from home dies, it's "Put to work"
Warweaver 11-18-07, 11:40 AM	OMG Source Wall! Fodigg you gigantic nerd, I love it. :P What if, as part of the ritual for new "workers", their dead bodies are actually encased in warforge-like shells? Keeps down on the pollution of remains in such a cramped city, and makes 'em kinda like Borg (with or without hive-mind) or just a semi-intelligent reminder of everyone's ultimate fate in Home. Of course there's still the problem of decay - perhaps only part of the body is needed? Maybe they just preserve a few of the organs in the shell like a warforge-mummy-thing. Or just use the skeleton as a "frame" and put all that meat to "other uses" (Home Travel Rations are people! Peeeople!!!). I had a hermetic NPC once (not D&D, Mage: the Ascension actually - hey I'm diverse you shaddap!) - who stole the ashes of people who had been cremated to fill the clay shells and animate his golems with souls. That'd be pretty sterile. :P
fodigg 11-19-07, 12:40 PM	OMG Source Wall! Fodigg you gigantic nerd, I love it. :P :D What if, as part of the ritual for new "workers", their dead bodies are actually encased in warforge-like shells? I like this. And it could be as simple as burning a corpse (in an arcane ritual) and pouring the ashes into a suit of iron armor, and forging the combination into an Iron/Flesh golem tied to the command of the arcane headmaster. It is assumed that, at the end of her tenure, the headmaster will submit to "joining" the mythal to repower it, and the command of these "home golems" will be turned over to home. What would this setup mean to "Home" as I currently present it? It would give a lot of power to the Headmaster. Headmaster Rialla Mariola would be in command of all golems that she has created so far, meaning that they are not yet tied to the mythal. I would assume that this means they could be sent away some distance as her own personal strike force. Rialla would have to be trusted to join the mythal at some point in order give up this power as well as strengthen the Mythal. However, the more mobile golems are more useful to Home than the static ones that just stand outside the gates, so there are benefits for Rialla to stay active as long as possible. As these golems are more powerful than the guardsmen (iron golems are very powerful, flesh golems somewhat less), the military would be seen as "support" instead of the true defenders of Home. This would frustrate General Dugan MacLeod to no end. He would keep the war machines on the wall working, but would be even more ready to forge a standing army to march out of Home, if only to prove his worth. Rialla's word would carry far more weight as she would require cooperation from all other defense forces. Deucal Rockhoof (Industry District) would have to make sure she's supplied with the correct suits of armor, Mother Abigal (Temple/Sanitation) would have to perform the preparation ritual for the deceased volunteer, General MacLeod (Guard/Military) would have to give up armor and supplies that would have gone to his men for the golem force, and Roz Firsthammer (Tunnel District) would have to dig the ore necessary to build these golems in the first place. --- Sea elves would be less necessary. I wasn't very keen on the idea of aquatic races living with Home in the first place because I feel like it makes the sea too "accessible". I want the ocean to represent a hard line that they can't really cross. An intimidating barrier that would take a greater leap of faith that to cross than they currently prepared to take. With the golems not needing to breathe, they could be put to work harvesting kelp as well as creating a perimeter guard to keep out monstrous/undead forces attacking from below the waves. "Worker golems" could be put to work clearing refuse from the front of the wall as well. --- Home could get attacked far more often. The walls of Home were very important because they prevent the population from being wiped out. If Home was constantly attacked, then eventually one would have to assume that the walls would crumble and fall, or that attrition would eventually wipe out the able-bodied portion of the population. With golems acting as a forward military force, it's possible to give the walls some relief. The golems can "hold" an enemy force within optimal striking distance for the marksman and artillery to attack them (and who cares if they kill a few golems in the process?). Attacks would, in fact, almost be necessary to keep the demand for golems up. Depending on how productive you want Rialla to be, a constant battle could be waged outside the walls of Home. I think that would be a little much, and it would quickly give Rialla control of the entire golem force (as older golems are destroyed), but I think that it explains why this society would need to be war-time productive if they never lose soldiers. --- What would the process of becoming a golem mean? There are a few ways that this question could be answered: Hero: If only the most capable or combat savy heroes are chosen to fuel a golem, then it becomes a sort of goal for the adventurers of Home. It would be a point of honor for a warrior or guardsmen to be encased in a golem to serve his city again until "final death". Criminal: Anyone who breaks the laws of Home gets turned into a golem. I don't like this answer because I think that there wouldn't be enough "volunteers" and I also like the idea of criminals being exiled instead of executed. Volunteer: Instead of being an organ donor, citizens of Home would be "soul donors". Any citizen willing to contribute to the defense of Home can sign up to be donors. Cynics and conspiracy theorists can claim that clerics will refuse to heal those listed as donors to up production, and that the donor list is even used by paid-off syndicate murderers to supply "volunteers". This can be countered in public opinion by some small payout or convenience given to donors. Discovering the truth could be an interesting adventure hook. Everyone: This is the "nobody dies, they get put to work" mentality. I don't think that every person in Home would be placed in a golem (not enough suits of armor), but it's possible that they would all go through the preparation ritual, and that the temple is full of vials of the ashes (and souls) of the dead of Home, waiting for placement into a golem. (or crying out for release to those who can hear them) Enemies: If there are enough corpses lying around the killing field, it's possible that these could be brought into home by golem workers, and turned into more golems to serve Home. This is an interesting idea because it will limit production, but uphold the idea that Home citizens should not be used like this. You could then introduce the scandal of golems powered by the deceased of Home to counter the limited production. Lottery: The most grusome answer is that a "lottery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lottery)" of sorts goes on in home, and those pull the blighted dot are captured and go through the process of becoming a golem alive. This would put a very dark mood into Home, and would be a huge political point of contention in Home. Why don't the council members take part in the lottery? Why are citizens of the Royal district so rarely chosen for the lottery? (and able to buy their way out of it when they are?) This would be a very, very interesting version of Home, although I find it a little too dark for my tastes. Living volunteer: These volunteers, sick of their lives in Home or charmed by promises of eternal salvation for their sacrifice, willingly submit themselves to the process of becoming a defense golem. The elderly: The first of two very dark "population-control" solutions would be that any citizen older than a certain point is taken and "put to work". Too dark for my tastes. The "first born": The second of the dark "population-control" solution would be that the first born child (or whatever number you wish) of any woman in Home is taken and turned into a golem. This keeps population down and guarantees a steady stream of "volunteers". A limit on the number of allowed births could also be used for this purpose. Again, too dark for my tastes, and this one hits a little too close to home for me as I consider my two very adorable adopted cousins. I won't say more because I don't want to make this a political discussion. There are a lot of options that are opened up by this idea of a golem defense force. Personally, I would have a "soul donor" setup with worker golems and defense golems. I would have Rialla showing no intention of joining the mythal, and would in fact have the mythal failing to the point where her sacrifice would be meaningless (which would be a good reason for her to resent her position). I would have her controlling her golems as her personal strike force as she seeks to find the means to gain power (supposedly the power to replenish the mythal, but who knows with her). I would also eliminate sea elves as a part of home, and would instead introduce aquatic races to PCs that take to the water as a bit of discovery. The status of the sea folk would be a mystery for them to solve. Overall, I think that this addition to Home (which is optional, like everything else) is a good one that gives DMs a few more toys to play with. PS: I also want to say that, while I personally would shy away from the "darker" options revolving around this issue, they are very viable, especially for "horror" campaigns and in horrific settings, such as Ravenloft. I don't want my own preferences to discourage others from choosing those options. I simply prefer to run a more "the shining heroes are victorious!" style game.
Consul Vido 11-19-07, 03:25 PM	I like this Fodigg. I think in my incarnation of this I would go with your Hero and Volunteer options for the golems. A thought: I was looking in the SRD and noticed that the golems there (Clay, Flesh, Iron, and Stone) are divided 50/50 between being created through Divine magic and Arcane Magic. The ones I would see being in more common use (Clay and Stone, due to Flesh being, well, icky and iron being needed for weapons, armor, etc.) are the divinely created ones. (I realize there are other types of golems in other books, but I am at work now, and can't remember any off the top of my head.) Which gives me ideas. What if the golems are the purview (that's the right word, I hope) of the clerics, and are seen as their contribution to the defense of the city, as the Mythal is the mages'? Perhaps this could be a topic of contention between the two groups on whose contribution is more vital? Perhaps the fact that Rialla has been the first Archmage to create her own personal squad of Iron Golems (and thus taken resources away from the Militia and the clerics) could be one reason people are beginning to worry about her motivations. Alternatively, Perhaps some golems are created by the clerics, but others are indeed the creations of the Archmage. I could see the Divine golems having to fight off the Archmage's golems if she ever truly turns against the city.
fodigg 11-19-07, 04:37 PM	That would be interesting. Sort of like the first sign that Rialla is overstepping her station. Instead of just putting the magical stamp on the unpowered iron golem and passig it over to Mother Abigal, she's making her own iron golems powered by the mythal itself (weakening the mythal even more). This should certainly make other members of the council wary.
tombowings 11-23-07, 04:48 PM	I just wanted to tell you that this is a great idea.
Warweaver 11-25-07, 02:28 PM	Optionally, if you wanted to keep everything "sea level and up" (no sea elves *or* golems below the waves), it'd be easy to say they tried putting the golems to work underwater, but the ashes necessary for their animation wash away too easily. It's awful hard to make something with that many movable parts "watertight" with medieval tech, and perhaps the seabed of the docks has a few empty, rusted golem shells as a testament to past failures. Also optionally, maybe they've succeeded in watertight golems, but the enchantment process involves giving them a kind of weak magical forcefield (like the description for Mage Armor or the Light Fortification armor ability), which makes them uber-expensive. An individual campaign could also mess with how people see the golems. Since it seems to require the soul of a person to animate them, citizens might be just as upset when a golem is destroyed as when a soldier is killed. Maybe a golem receives special rites and a new grave for "final death". Or maybe citizens are even more haunted when a golem dies, because the belief is when you destroy the golem you destroy their soul with it. Now that's final! Truly the most tragically heroic of sacrifices. Maybe religious factions in the city demand every golem to have a "deadman's switch" (yuk yuk) that un-binds the soul from its vessel just before it's destroyed - however, the council knows that kind of expense per-golem just isn't feasible. Maybe the PCs see the occasional golem constantly followed and pestered by a former relative (young, old, or just crazy)...who continues to talk to it as if it were alive, even though it never responds. Perhaps it is one of the "old models" - because of this problem they've stopped any possibility of a golem being recognized for who it used to be.
Snubbed 11-27-07, 04:04 PM	This is all pretty sweet, but I'm still not happy with something about it. George R.R. Martin uses a great saying as guidance when writing his books, "The bad guy is just the other side's hero." They need to be believable and have motives beyond "it's in their nature." Why hasn't this happened to the world earlier? Why did it all go to pot now of all times? Something in society (across all races) broke. Previously, when confronted with extraplanar threats like this, they would unite and defend, right? Why didn't that work this time? Maybe it was something philosophical? Like an extreme isolationist theory that kept everyone from helping one another until, suddenly, it was too late. They had waited too long to commit to the battle and now they couldn't win it...I don't know... All I'm saying is that there has to be REASONS for all of this having happened. A lot of the discussion is on how things work, not so much why they work the way they do. If it is a short sighted selfishness that kept the races from working together to stave off the attack, wouldn't that continue to show itself in the politics of the survivors? Or maybe they've moved to an extreme opposite reaction and tried to impose a terrible communism style government where the individual has no meaning, anymore. These seem like important questions as they would influence every mission and mover-and-shaker in the world - read, PC's. -Snubbed
fodigg 11-28-07, 01:39 PM	Why hasn't this happened to the world earlier? Why did it all go to pot now of all times? ... All I'm saying is that there has to be REASONS for all of this having happened. Powerful devilish magic? Or a failed heroic quest? Who knows? This happened uncounted years ago. What would have happened if Sauron got the ring? For D&D games to feel purposeful, especially at epic levels, how often does the fate of the world rest on the shoulders of a few stout adventurers? Why couldn't the "good guys" fail in such a high-stakes quest? It would only need to happen once to unleash hell itself upon the earth. And why would it need to be a single event? Civilization could have been "going to pot" over thousands of years. Kingdoms could have fallen one by one and great victories could have been gained before losing ground yet again due to poor leadership or enemy strength. And all this long before Home became the last refuge that it is today. Many, many failed campaigns and poor decisions could have contributed to the final end (of the last pitiful army) and retreat into Home. "The bad guy is just the other side's hero." They need to be believable and have motives beyond "it's in their nature." The devils are villains because it's their nature. They are beyond mortal understanding. But their tiefling or other non-devil/demon underlings are more morally gray. The undead that are brainless would be beyond morality. The liches and vampires etc that control them would be, in my opinion, self interested but not necessarily evil. The renegade orc general wouldn't necessarily be evil. If you want more sympathetic villains or a backstory for the end of times, this wouldn't be too hard to come up with. I don't want to spell out a history or event because that hinges heavily on the chosen campaign setting and the preferences of the DM. Also, I disagree with that quote because it makes an absolute statement. It is true in many cases, but there is such a thing as a faceless and unreasoning villain. Are these necessarily better villains? Well that depends on the story being told. Sometimes they serve their purpose rather well. A lot of the discussion is on how things work, not so much why they work the way they do. If it is a short sighted selfishness that kept the races from working together to stave off the attack, wouldn't that continue to show itself in the politics of the survivors? Or maybe they've moved to an extreme opposite reaction and tried to impose a terrible communism style government where the individual has no meaning, anymore. If you're asking about the politics of Home, I think it's pretty clear that it's a representative democracy bordering on "oligarchy in all but name". There would still be political intrigue/infighting, and there would still be persons calling for other types of leadership. This is Home after all. The fullness of "human" civilization crammed into one city. --- Keep in mind that this is only the end of "our" civilization. And even for that, slim hope does still exist in Home. The PCs don't necessarily have to reestablish "human" civilization. Maybe instead they would want simply to find a place for themselves in the new order, whatever that may be. Heck, you could run a campaign against Home if you wanted. Pick a side and follow those interests, with Home as a prize that could bring final victory to your chosen faction. Maybe you'll start out on the side of Home and decide that it's time "civilization" needs to die. It's up to the DM to set the stage, and up to the players to take the story where they want it to go.
Slash_Z 11-30-07, 01:24 PM	Well, I just would like to say that this is a very interesting idea. About the golems, I can give my two cents. Probably, non-volunteer units can be irresponsive. The mind and the spirit of the golem are not focused on being a golem and serving Home. This can be though when you want to make criminal-based golems, "elderly" golems or "first-born" golems - they always are second class soldiers/workers. What makes the "hero" golems far more effective is that they are reliable and volunteers. They are so dedicated to defending Home that they give away their very own bodies. So, "hero" golems can be captains, or lieutenants, or whichever officer status there may be. The other golems are cannon-fodder and expendable forces. Probably "hero" golems are middle-high level and blindly loyal to the golem-army commander [Rialla, right?]. The high council probably is uncertain about Rialla's true motivations...
fodigg 11-30-07, 03:27 PM	So, "hero" golems can be captains, or lieutenants, or whichever officer status there may be. The other golems are cannon-fodder and expendable forces. Probably "hero" golems are middle-high level and blindly loyal to the golem-army commander [Rialla, right?]. The high council probably is uncertain about Rialla's true motivations... Hmm...so would you have the golems as intelligent? I can't imagine an "officer" golem if the golems were not intelligent. Maybe an "elite" version, but not something that has to make decisions.
Slash_Z 12-01-07, 06:13 PM	Hmm...so would you have the golems as intelligent? I can't imagine an "officer" golem if the golems were not intelligent. Maybe an "elite" version, but not something that has to make decisions. Nope, not something that can make decisions. They are instructed to make preordered stuff. Well, think about modrons... that's what I had in mind :)
Tovec 12-01-07, 07:40 PM	Would it be prudent that if we want to make more of a division between hero and regular golems, the hero golems gain bonus HD or something to make them better then the standard class. Something like regular citizens that become golems get 7 construct HD and hero golems get 12 or something. Also, I have some concerns about people being cremated and put into jars to be made into golems. I think that while golems could and should be part of the defences at home they should be used in moderation. I don't agree that any iron that home would have go toward the golems first, I think that the front line fighters should get the top stuff because they are the ones risking their lives every day against whatever threatens the city. Maybe make a golem out of those who fell on the battlefield and make hero golems out of those who distinguished themselves even further. I mean I know you have all gotten behind the undead and sea creatures and golems but they just strike me as wrong. Maybe its juts my interpretation of what Home should look like but if my times on the 4e boards have taught me anything its that if one person is posting it chances are there are a few more that are at least thinking it.
tombowings 12-01-07, 07:43 PM	Just a comment, but this really reminds me of The Matrix. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing, but you may be able to pull some ideas from there.
Consul Vido 12-03-07, 09:42 AM	Just a comment, but this really reminds me of The Matrix. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing, but you may be able to pull some ideas from there. I think there will be some similarities with any "last hope of humanity" setting. We're drawing from the same pool of ideas. But since you bring it up... Instead of http://www.moviecitynews.com/arrays/images/2003/matrix_revolutions_poster2.jpg We could use something from the SRD. They are epic and they are artifacts, but if they don't fall into the hands of the PCs and are used for flavor, would that be unbalancing? Golem Armor: This enormous suit of black iron +10 full plate armor increases the wearer’s size by one category (to a maximum of Colossal). The wearer gains a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength and is rendered immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, disease, and similar effects. He or she is not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage. Golem Armor is immune to rust attacks. The wearer of Golem Armor gains damage reduction 15/adamantine. He or she also cannot regain hit points by any means (mundane or magical) while the armor is worn. It requires 1 hour to don or extract oneself from Golem Armor. So instead of golems being made from Granny and Nana, the warriors of Home get a new toy to play with.
fodigg 12-03-07, 10:44 AM	We could use something from the SRD. They are epic and they are artifacts, but if they don't fall into the hands of the PCs and are used for flavor, would that be unbalancing? Golem Armor: This enormous suit of black iron +10 full plate armor increases the wearer’s size by one category (to a maximum of Colossal). The wearer gains a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength and is rendered immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, disease, and similar effects. He or she is not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage. Golem Armor is immune to rust attacks. The wearer of Golem Armor gains damage reduction 15/adamantine. He or she also cannot regain hit points by any means (mundane or magical) while the armor is worn. It requires 1 hour to don or extract oneself from Golem Armor. I like it. It gives a reason for intelligent defenders of Home to be effective in its defense without being high level. That was a sticking point for me, which is why I was leaning towards having unintelligent defenders. To keep the suits out of the hands of PCs, I would make it so that they only work within the mythal and once they move too far beyond the walls they fail. --- Hmm...taking it all together, I would have a limited supply of Golem Armor for specially trained soldiers on the wall, and gargoyles perched on the outside of the wall. Nobody would be defending from the killing field. I would have a few of the golem armors as water proof with a hose leading to the surface for an air supply. This would allow for some patrolling under the docks and for some harvesting of the kelp fields. The underwater farming gathering could also be done by divers trained to hold their breath. I like the idea of gargoyles because they are effectively a part of the walls of Home. I want the walls of Home to be the primary defense of the stronghold, and this concept sidesteps it a bit. Great heroes of home who volunteer (on their deathbeds I would assume) could have their essences woven into particularly powerful Golem Armor or Gargoyles for defense of Home.
Warweaver 12-03-07, 04:49 PM	Sidenote - you could have the golem armor work with the mythal and arcane-enchanted, whereas the gargoyles actually pull free and animate from the wall when needed (as opposed to just being greedy magical beasts as the MM has them). Gargoyles could be created by the clergy of Home, from the souls of (whichever method is used out of those Fodigg mentioned earlier). Particularly loyal, virtuous, or powerful (high level) souls could manifest gargoyles with advanced HD and special powers relating to their "legend". I have always liked the idea of the wizards and clerics vying to protect Home, and I have always considered "binding loyal souls to vessels for our defense" to be more of a clerical thing. Two sides of the same coin perhaps. The golem armor, soulless constructs piloted by the living - the gargoyles, souls of the living imbued in the very rock that protects them. I also like the juxtaposition of clerics creating the "air force" - since wizard-types are usually better at "air force" stuff than clerics (like the "invisible flying fireball launcher" that so many PC arcane casters turn out to be). Perhaps the armor suits can do basic tasks without pilots, but need sentient control for complex things like combat. Also, what if the gargoyles' souls are still lucid and sentient? Maybe the oldest gargoyles act like defenders *and* lore-keepers for Home, manifesting a head and some arms on the inside of the wall to regale a group of street urchins about the history of Home, or how they came to be in the wall...
Tovec 12-03-07, 05:58 PM	Sidenote - you could have the golem armor work with the mythal and arcane-enchanted, whereas the gargoyles actually pull free and animate from the wall when needed (as opposed to just being greedy magical beasts as the MM has them). Gargoyles could be created by the clergy of Home, from the souls of (whichever method is used out of those Fodigg mentioned earlier). Particularly loyal, virtuous, or powerful (high level) souls could manifest gargoyles with advanced HD and special powers relating to their "legend". I have always liked the idea of the wizards and clerics vying to protect Home, and I have always considered "binding loyal souls to vessels for our defense" to be more of a clerical thing. Two sides of the same coin perhaps. The golem armor, soulless constructs piloted by the living - the gargoyles, souls of the living imbued in the very rock that protects them. I also like the juxtaposition of clerics creating the "air force" - since wizard-types are usually better at "air force" stuff than clerics (like the "invisible flying fireball launcher" that so many PC arcane casters turn out to be). Perhaps the armor suits can do basic tasks without pilots, but need sentient control for complex things like combat. Also, what if the gargoyles' souls are still lucid and sentient? Maybe the oldest gargoyles act like defenders *and* lore-keepers for Home, manifesting a head and some arms on the inside of the wall to regale a group of street urchins about the history of Home, or how they came to be in the wall... This is exactly what I was talking about. I like the idea that the souls of people who want to help Home even after death be used but I didn't like that the golems would be everyone's favourite form. It just seemed like Home had next to no true death, which I think would be necessary, as everyone was reincarnated as golems. The old way hurt the true heroic citizens who would man the wall, without the proper equipment? This new way says that the strongest can be upgraded and truly become part of Home's defence. I like this new direction more. Heroes of the wall would be put into golem suits, still sentient. Adventurers are too flighty and risky for city officials to give upgrades of golem suits so as long as its made clear to the players they aren't going to keep the suits (should they find them) then everything is good. People, probably on their deathbed or maybe legally at a courthouse before hand, sign up to become Gargoyles to defend Home. I like it. Outside of the rituals used, which can be split between divine and arcane casters, there would be relatively few resources expended in the creation of the gargoyles.
fodigg 12-04-07, 11:17 AM	I agree. I like how this covers the angles, and I like the interesting visuals. I don't see these "gargoyles" as monstrous in form. I see them as incredibly detailed statues of the heroes they are made from, standing on the wall looking out, ready to attack any who threaten the mythal. However, they can look however you want.
fodigg 01-14-08, 05:50 PM	:b:Rise from your grave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Beast):b: Sorry to rez this thread, but as we have more information on 4E at this time, and with yet more information on the way as the next preview book comes out tomorrow, I'm wondering if people think this concept works with some of the fluff we've seen for 4E. Any thoughts? Do I need to work dragonborn and tieflings in there somewhere?
tombowings 01-14-08, 06:00 PM	:b:Rise from your grave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_Beast):b: Sorry to rez this thread, but as we have more information on 4E at this time, and with yet more information on the way as the next preview book comes out tomorrow, I'm wondering if people think this concept works with some of the fluff we've seen for 4E. Any thoughts? Do I need to work dragonborn and tieflings in there somewhere? I think it could work very well. Tieflings and dragonborn could be leading assaults on Home or some of the few allies Home has left.
Warweaver 01-15-08, 08:32 AM	Yes, this would probably fit well with the "points-of-light" philosophy they're going for now. Isolated pockets of civilization surrounded by angry monster-filled wilderness. The only change that might be interesting would be if this was after the Evil Adversary's forces kind of disintegrated. 4e seems to have an environment that prefers old-fashioned dungeon-delving and random encountering, so it'd be interesting if the Evil Guy's repeated attacks on Bastion had failed...their forces splintering from internal turmoil, now there's Bastion and a bunch of tiny "evil fiefdoms", spread out in a huge empty continent - once great, now battle-scarred and overgrown. It's up to the PCs to help Bastion restore the original civilization of the world, so it doesn't die out completely. Maybe the Evil Adversary's head honcho was imprisoned or banished in some kind of daring last-ditch attack by Bastion's previous heroes?
fodigg 01-15-08, 10:27 AM	Yes, this would probably fit well with the "points-of-light" philosophy they're going for now. Isolated pockets of civilization surrounded by angry monster-filled wilderness. ... now there's Bastion and a bunch of tiny "evil fiefdoms", spread out in a huge empty continent - once great, now battle-scarred and overgrown. It's up to the PCs to help Bastion restore the original civilization of the world, so it doesn't die out completely. I find this concept interesting. Basically, it seems like you're suggesting that the points of light mentality would still exist, but it would exist for the "evil" empires and not for the old civilization. So Home, the one big point of light that exists for old civilization, has to conquer or otherwise destroy these "points of darkness" and create true points of light. I think it could work very well. Tieflings and dragonborn could be leading assaults on Home or some of the few allies Home has left. I'm glad that you thought of tieflings as outside of Home. I mentioned earlier that there would be an enemy "tiefling empire" that did a deal with devils in order to gain power. Well...that really sounds like Bael Turath, the core tiefling empire that fell long ago when it fought it out with a dragonborn empire. What if, instead of the far future, this scenario takes place in the past. Bael Turath is at the peak of its power, has conquered nearly all of the world, and few other power players stand in their way. By shifting the story I had written, the orc chieftan could be replaced with a dragonborn chieftan, or, even better, the lich king's empire could be replaced with a dragonborn empire (and the lich king made a smaller "world player" like the orc chieftan) and Home can be the egg that spawns the world once those two empires are successfully played off of each other. What do y'all think?
pangalactic 01-15-08, 05:23 PM	As many have said, that's a really awesome concept. It's pretty much the exact opposite of the 'new frontiers'/discovered land kind of campaign that I love to run, but I can see it being really cool. I can imagine it having a really strong undercurrent of fear; rumours of the evil nasties outside growing stronger, encroacing further and further into the supposedly well-defended area immediately surrounding the city. It'd be fun to play on that for a good few sessions, really build up the idea that outside the city walls is a bad place. And then have the PCs realise they have to venture outside to complete Unidentified Quest A, and watch the faces of the players. And laugh.
Warweaver 01-15-08, 07:56 PM	Looks like Fodigg's been keeping pace with the 4e material! While I have extreme distaste for them injecting so much setting into the supposedly "core" books, I do like the new flavor on its own merit. If only it had been released as a separate setting instead. I think Bael Turath would fit well, but the dragonborn is a bit trickier. I guess it depends on whether you want the current Bastion mood to be dominant, or partially "subsumed" in the 4e pseudo-history. You could keep the dragonborn nation as they describe it in Races & Classes - good, righteous, militaristic and led by a millennia-old dragon. Or you could tint it a more desperate flair - maybe the dragonborn are prejudiced against Bastion? Perhaps because it's still dominantly human, and human weakness was (of course) to blame for the tiefling's rise to power. Maybe Bastion houses the only humans not subject to the tiefling curse, and the demon-tainted want to exterminate it as the last reminder of how "weak" they once were. Of course the dragonborn stand between the tieflings and Bastion...but they don't really like the city either. They probably won't assault it without reason to believe it's aiding the tieflings (false Bael Turath intelligence anyone?)...but the dragonborn might slaughter Bastion-folk they find wandering the wilderness for no reason other than to "deny the enemy resources". You could get a real "fiendish empire, totalitarian ultra-bigoted regime, and Bastion stuck in the middle" theme going. :P
fodigg 01-16-08, 10:54 AM	Oh yes, definitely. Dragonborn, should they be an empire, would have to hate Home and the other common races. Otherwise Home wouldn't really be a "bastion". The only alternative would be that the dragonborn empire is inaccessible. Maybe Home is cut off from them and need to make contact? Well, I'm not really interested in going that route anyway. If you want some good dragonborn, then you can put some refugee dragonborn who don't agree with the dragonborn empire hiding in Home. That would be interesting since they'd probably be taking some flak from their neighbors, just because they're dragonborn.
turalisj 01-17-08, 05:11 PM	Perhaps the dragonborn empire has their own fight on their hands. Between the evil dragons and other monsters, even dragons would be fighting for their lives. Somehow, I have an easier time seeing it as ww2. 'Home' is similar to Great Britain and the dragonborn empire similar to America.
fodigg 01-17-08, 05:58 PM	Perhaps the dragonborn empire has their own fight on their hands. Between the evil dragons and other monsters, even dragons would be fighting for their lives. Somehow, I have an easier time seeing it as ww2. 'Home' is similar to Great Britain and the dragonborn empire similar to America. Not a bad thought, I just don't want them to be allied. Which is easy enough to fix I suppose.