Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 03-02-07, 09:50 AM	I am trying to build a realistic feeling world, in this world the deities are real - to an extent - but I would like to use comparative mythology to create many different "types" of gods. Let me better explain. Over all, there is one single "universal" truth - meaning that this is something that only the DM's know, and perhaps the players, but over all it is not something that would be character knowledge. This is how things really work, how they really are when it comes to the deities. Then, there is the "mortal" prospective. Certain gods may be venerated in one culture, but not another, there may be one god who is venerated in multiple cultures with different names. Over all, it becomes pretty complex at the higher level and I have had trouble visualizing how it will work. Let me attempt to explain how I currently see it working. In the beginning there was, more or less, nothing. A being with power beyond comprehension escaped from a void, and in doing so created time itself. At the moment of its escape it was so immensely powerful that it was torn into two equal haves, essentially - dualism - yin and yang as it were. These two halves fuel everything that there is, was and ever will be. Their creation marked the beginning of time. (That is the Big Bang for the Prime Material World.) The halves make up everything that could possibly be - from mortals to deities, at their most base form of existence they carry the spark of both halves. There are essentially three main "places": the Material Universe, the Ethereal World, and the Planes. The Ethereal World acts as a type of barrier between the other two. The Planes are the homes and realms of deities, which are shaped by the deity itself, who is in turn shaped by mortals. A mortals connection to a deity comes from their souls - which carry the spark of the Creator. Through their belief, or lack thereof, a deity is born, destroyed or transformed. Mortals know nothing of how this works. They have their beliefs and are very much aware of the "spiritual world" - but do not fully understand how it works. To some extent, the deities themselves are ignorant. A deity is, at its core, the physical personification of faith. Only through the belief of mortals can it grow in power. Mortals are, more often than not, viewed as pawns. Deities do not battle each other directly, but use mortals to subvert the worshipers of their enemies or transform their enemies into palatable allies. They scheme and plot against one another, while at the same time jockeying for more power for themselves. Because each deity contains both yin and yang, they can be transformed. They could be benevolent and then eventually become tyrannical. A deity can also become fragmented into various "aspects" - especially when it becomes really powerful. This is always a danger for a deity who is known by many different names, as it is possible that those names will eventually have new personalities and abilities attributed to them. This would, in turn, cause that deity to lose a part of itself, and a new deity, under the name that they used to be forged. ----- The two halves of the Creator are basically Yin and Yang as I described above. Here is a basic summary of the dualistic Yin and Yang concept. 1. Yin and Yang do not exclude each other. Everything has its opposite: although this is never absolute - only relative. No one thing is completely Yin or completely Yang. Each contains the seed of its opposite. For example, winter can turn into summer; "what goes up, must come down". 2. Yin and Yang are interdependent. One cannot exist without the other. For example, day cannot exist without night. Light cannot exist without darkness. Death cannot exist without life. 3. Yin and Yang can be further subdivided into Yin and Yang. Any Yin or Yang aspect can be further subdivided into Yin and Yang. For example, temperature can be seen as either hot or cold. However, hot can be further divided into warm or scorching; cold into cool or icy. Within each spectrum, there is a smaller spectrum; every beginning is a moment in time, and has a beginning and end, just as every hour has a beginning and end. 4. Yin and Yang consume and support each other. Yin and Yang are usually held in balance: as one increases, the other decreases. However, imbalances can occur. There are four possible imbalances: excess Yin, excess Yang, Yin deficiency, and Yang deficiency. They can again be seen as a pair: by excess of Yin there is a Yang deficiency and vice versa. The imbalance is also a relative factor: the excess of Yang "forces" Yin to be more "concentrated". 5. Yin and Yang can transform into one another. At a particular stage, Yin can transform into Yang and vice versa. For example, night changes into day; warmth cools; life changes to death. However this transformation is relative too. Night and day coexist on Earth at the same time when shown from space. 6. Part of Yin is in Yang and part of Yang is in Yin. The dots in each serve both as a reminder that there are always traces of one in the other, and that absolute extremes transform instantly into the opposite, or that the labels Yin and Yang are conditioned by an observer's point of view. This can show that absolute discrimination between the two is artificial. For example: There are always lights within the dark (e.g., stars in the night); or that the hardest stone is the easiest to break. One quality is never completely without the other. --------- Now not all of the above actually comes into play during the game. However, it is immensely important for the world building aspect. To look at cultures as they migrate over time, the intermingling of possible deities. To know how deities change, die and gain power - the above is important to know. For mortals, the gods will be real, but they will not have this complete understanding of the concept. Having a cosmology like this allows me to create the world that has deities similar to our own, but for those deities to also be real - and under the effect of certain universal laws (in the same way we are under the effect of gravity and the laws of motion). I can have a wide range of deities, from different cultures, the merging of a deity from multiple cultures, new religions coming forward that change the paradigm of the way the spiritual world is viewed, etc. Can the above actually work? Does anyone have any suggestions? I really want to step away from the way D&D in general seems to handle deities as beings who intermingle with their followers, and the Greco-Roman influences.
Thyrwyn 03-02-07, 01:26 PM	I think you have an excellent foundation here - it should work fine. What problems do you see? I use a cosmology that involves mutable deities as well, and it has proven to be very rewarding for me and my players: it makes heresy possible:) I really want to step away from the way D&D in general seems to handle deities as beings who intermingle with their followersDo you mean in the sense of "walk among them" or in the more general sense of "interact with"? In my opinion and experience, the most important considerations would be: A) How much of the Gods' natures are dependent upon mortal beliefs: their Domains? Portfolios? Personalities? Knowledge? Likes & Dislikes? Hobbies? In other words: is there any core, independent being at the heart of each god, or is each created entirely out of the stuff of faith? Are there any exceptions to this rule? This is the big one. It flavors everything that follows. If deities are completely dependent, then they will be less concerned with what they are believed to be. That is to say that they are, by nature, whatever their followers believe them to be. They would be incapable of either regretting or approving of any change in their natures because ‘they are what they are. Extreme example: If Ares, God of War woke up one day as Ares, God of Agriculture, he wouldn’t care – he is now the God of Agriculture. Period. If the gods have any immutable core or inherent nature, this gets a little more interesting: the more core, the more interesting. . . B) Exactly how aware of their mutability are the Gods? Are they all aware to the same degree? And, most importantly, how do they feel about this (if at all)? Is how they feel about their nature as dependant upon their current persona/incarnation as their actual existence? The more awareness the gods possess, the more they will try to game the system (which can be fun!). They will work very hard to maintain their current persona/incarnation or intentionally try to expand or change their nature and influence. C) At what point does fragmentation occur – how much discrepancy in belief is required to “split” a god? A different name? Different preferred weapons? Different domains? What is the difference in degree between a discrepancy that simply changes a god and one that causes fragmentation? The more aware the god is, the more ardently they will work to stamp out any nascent heresies and the more strongly they will get their followers to do the same. The less aware the gods are, the more likely it is that any inquisitions will be follower-driven. You use the example of the fragmentation of powerful gods who are known by different names – you could really build on this and establish a solid foundation for the power of names in your world (examples being True Name magic systems and the Wizard of Earthsea trilogy by Ursula k. LeGuin)
KeshFerrar 03-02-07, 11:09 PM	Your cosmology foundation looks well thought out. #3 created a couple questions though. Are you saying there were only ever be two divisions to a cosmological object or to every object as the player characters view them in the campaign? Because if its the latter, I believe player's may have a hard time grasping their character's mentality. Limiting myself to two delineations of hot, cold, wet, money, hunger, pain, etc would be an interesting thought experiment, but it would also be very hard maintain. In my opinion, you're being very scientific with your development. You have a good skeleton laid out, but don't get bogged down in the minute details -- focus on what will feature into game play. Most players -- unless they're very detail oriented -- are only looking for basic consistency. And I believe you have a great framework to provide them with a rich world. Have fun fleshing it out.
Meldread 03-03-07, 01:25 AM	There are certain laws that pertain to deities that they cannot violate. These laws are analogous to our world's physical laws, such as that of gravity and magnetism. 1. A deity cannot physically enter into the physical world. A deity is a formless entity that lacks a physical body. It is quite literally an abstract concept made tangible. It is the sum of all of its worshipers beliefs combined into one being. 2. A deity must have worshipers. If people cease to worship the deity then the deity dies. Worship is defined as some form of veneration that can include, but is not limited to fear, hatred, giving thanks and asking for aid. 3. No deity is integral to the existence of the physical world. The physical world formed exactly like our own, through a big bang and billions of years of evolution. Deities only came about after the first sentient beings capable of worship evolved. As a result, no deity is integral to the existence of the physical world or its people. 4. No deity fully understands its existence or its place in the cosmos. The birth and mind of a deity are difficult to understand. There is no true beginning or end to a deity because all deities, even mortals emanate from the same source. A deity does not understand this and only understands the very basic concepts of its existence. Just as an infant knows, it must breathe and eat without being taught, so too does a new god understand that it requires worshipers to survive. It understands the power that worshipers have upon it. It understands all concepts fundamental to its existence as if it had always known them. It also fully understands the consequences should its needs not be met. 5. A deity always conforms to the belief of its worshipers. The more a deities followers believe something to be true about a deity, the more the deity begins to transform into that belief. If more than 50% of a deities worshipers believe something to be true, it will be unable to avoid being transformed. A deity that has undergone transformation feels as if it has always existed as such, or feels as if the events projected upon it actually happened. 6. A deity can never physically leave its home plane. When a deity is born, it forms a cocoon like place known as a plane. This plane and the deity are fundamentally tied in a way that is difficult to understand. The plane is a physical and tangible place that exists outside of the material world. This plane changes to fit the moods and whims of the deity who may take a "physical" form here. A deity's power is greatest here and it is the ultimate master of this realm. It can kill with a single thought or transform mountains into oceans, anything that is imaginable that is possible a deity can perform in this place. It can be a heaven, a hell or something in between depending on the deity. However, the plane is always a reflection of the persona of the deity. ------------------------------------------------------------ Each deity has two types of avatars, one for the Ethereal Realm and the planes and another for the Material World. While the deity as a whole cannot leave its plane it can project itself in other places through the form of an avatar. An avatar as a whole is based off the amount of divine essence the deity uses to create and fuel it. As an avatar can be destroyed, it weakens the deity proportionately to how much essence it contains. This essence can be lost if the Avatar is destroyed, however before destruction it is possible that the deity can choose to reclaim the essence. This is typical among the deities who use avatars within the Ethereal Realm and the planes, but less typical among deities who use avatars in the material world. When a deity creates an avatar in the Ethereal Realm it is projecting pure essence, forming something from nothing. The deity itself lacks a physical form and this is more or less true for all of the Ethereal Realm. While someone in the Realm would view the things they find as "physical" they are, in fact shaped from pure energy. On the planes this energy is the deities energy, and it is this same energy that a deity uses to forge its planar avatars. However, when a deity is placing an avatar in the physical world the rules are completely different. The deity must possess a mortal vessel and then fill it with its divine essence. This is a delicate situation as if a deity forces too much essence into the mortal, the mortal will be driven insane or destroyed. This possession may be both willing and unwilling on the mortals part, and once the essence is forced into the mortal it is difficult to reclaim that essence, though not impossible. Although a deity may force his essence into an unwilling mortal, reclaiming the essence becomes a bigger problem. The personality of the mortal and the deity are merged whenever an avatar on the material plane is formed by the deity. Depending on the amount of essence used in the avatar, the deities personality or the mortals personality may be the dominate persona. In the end, the divine essence is fused with the mortals soul making it difficult if not impossible to retract the essence without killing the mortal. As well, if the mortals personality is the dominate one he or she may resist the deity recalling its essence and if the mortal is of sufficient will the essence will remain. Divine Magic is created through a process similar to that of creating avatars. It is known as "seeding", wherein a deity places a miniscule amount of their essence into a mortal and allows the mortal the to draw upon their divine abilities. This allows that mortal to perform miraculous feats and is often used to gain converts to a religion. A deities ability to seed is largely unlimited due to the small amount placed within a mortal. However, most deities are cautious about who they give such powers too as the powers may in turn be used against them by their divine enemies. Communication with seeded individuals is easy for the deity and it may communicate to them any message, at any time as clearly as it wishes. With non-seeded individuals, it requires more effort. As the deity cannot exist within the physical world, it must project itself to the individual through visions, dreams or premonitions. In most cases, it is difficult for the deity too truly get its message across as it wishes because the mind of the mortal may distort what he is being told or what he is seeing. The more faithful and loyal an individual is to a deity, the easier it is for the deity to establish communication and communicate a clear message. All deities messages, aside from those who have been seeded, are filtered through a mortals belief and faith. What a deity is attempting to communicate may not be what the mortal hears or sees depending on the belief he has of the deity. It is possible, however for a deity to make its messages clearer to mortals by expending more of its essence, although in most cases, aside from those most dire, it is completely unnecessary. ------------------------------------------------------------ A deity is first born the moment a mortal begins to formulate the idea of the deity. As the idea takes shape, so too does the deity. This is the infancy of a deity and during this stage it only knows the most basic things. It knows what it requires to grow, what it requires to survive, and the powers it possesses. It also has any personality that has been attributed to it. Many deities die in this first stage, as it is essential that they gain more worshipers immediately. It is also during this time that a deity is most likely to go through many transformations. As the concept of the deity is more fully fleshed out, and as long as its worship base contains a small collection of individuals, or even a single individual, it will transform on a regular basis. When a deity undergoes a transformation it is essentially emulating the beliefs of its followers. If its followers believe that it's a cruel and calculating being who is the lord of war and undeath then this is what the deity becomes. However, if later its followers believe him to have had a change of heart and given up his evil ways to become a guardian of piece and virtue, then this too will become the deity. A deity will almost always resist a transformation that goes directly against what it currently is - as in essence its current persona dies and the new one replaces it. Like in the Disney movie Aladdin, where the Genie has "Phenomenal Cosmic Powers" allowing him to do almost anything the bearer of his lamp desires, so too do the deities. Like the Genie they have limitations to their powers, and like the Genie they are prisoners to their masters. Their power comes at a price, in that they must serve their mortal masters, even as they convince their masters that it should be the other way around. Because of the fear of mortals finding out the true power they hold over them all deities, almost universally, do not inform their worshipers of this innate weakness that they possess. If they knew the truth then mortals, for good or evil, would use the knowledge against them. This is, of course, true and is the primary reason mortals worship them as deities when the truth is that the mortals, collectively as a whole, hold the key to their power. Many deities, in order to further their power, attempt to spread to other cultures. They may use the same name, a variation of it or a completely new name. This is dangerous as belief fades in one culture and rises or changes in the other a deity may undergo an unwanted transformation. Some deities, to get around this limitation, create what are known as aspects. An aspect is when a deity subdivides its essence into smaller parts. An aspect may be drawn upon for power but is essentially an individual all to itself. If the aspect transforms it has little to no negative consequences to the original deity that spawned it. However, the primary drawback is that the aspect could refuse to share its essence with its divine parent. This is often the case when an aspect transforms into something diametrically opposed to its parent deity. Once an aspect is created, a deity cannot reclaim the essence. It may request the aspect to share its essence with it, but it cannot demand or require it to do so. The parent deity may also share more of its essence with the aspect. In some cases, a deity may escape a particularly bad transformation by creating an aspect and forcing the majority of its essence into that aspect. However, this escape is only temporary and unlikely too truly save the deity as it may in turn die of lack of worship. This is preferable to some deities in certain cases, especially if it is being transformed into something completely undesirable. Forced fragmentation is also a possibility. If worshipers begin to believe a deity has separated itself into two halves, this will be forced upon the deity. This works similar to aspects but the change is involuntary in most cases, however in some a deity may even encourage this line of thought. The more powerful a deity becomes the more likely its followers are to break it down into smaller deities. That does not mean that a deity who presents itself as a monotheistic deity cannot exist, only that it is likely to have its power subdivided into more reasonable chunks. In the real world something analogous in Christianity and Islam are angels and other beings such as demons that spawned from the original deity. In Christianity a good example of this is Christ who is also viewed and worshiped as a divine figure. ------------------------------------------------------------ It is possible for mortals to ascend to divinity though this is exceedingly rare. A mortal may possess basic divine powers in life if mortals worship him as a deity. However, his powers are limited to that of a deity in avatar form. Through death the mortal may ascend and be reborn in his or her cocoon plane. Here all the rules for being a normal deity apply, with the exception that the mortal carries over his experiences from life into godhood. He is transfused with his personality and memories intact, however like the other deities he can still be transformed by the beliefs of his followers. A mortal with divine abilities cannot seed others with divine powers. He can only truly ascend after his death and his soul is free from its mortal vessel. ------------------------------------------------------------ Death for mortals and deities are similar. A deity may be consumed by another deity provided it can encourage mortals to believe that such a thing has occurred. Likewise, when a mortal dies his soul appears before the gods in which he believes. He is given the option to serve them or be returned to the source. Returning to the source means being transformed back into the pure energy that created the divine and the souls of mortals. It is not painful, and the mortal soul simply becomes like a drop of water in a vast ocean, losing all individuality and becoming one with everything. If a mortal chooses to serve his deity in death, then he is subject to the whims of that deity. His soul remains on that deities plane and is transformed as that deity sees fit. In truth, the mortal loses its individuality as before and becomes a part of the deity it serves. If that deity dies and returns to the source, so too will the mortals soul. ------------------------------------------------------------ There is a being that is even outside the power of deities themselves. It is known by many names, and known and seen by all deities but its true nature is illusive. It is often called "the Voice", "the One", "the One Voice", "the Heralds", and even sometimes "the Fates". Not long after the birth of each deity it receives a visit from the Voice. This being is outside of the deities comprehension, but it makes clear that it is not a threat, it is not a friend, it is not a foe and that it is, ultimately, a servant and a Herald. The One Voice always appears as three individuals, though the type of individual changes from deity to deity and even from meeting to meeting in some cases, but it is always unmistakable who and what they are. A deity cannot sense their power or even their existence in fact, a deity cannot be certain that they exist at all. When it appears as three individuals it speaks with one voice, always in perfect unison. Even when one takes an action the other mimic that action exactly. Most deities believe them to be a single being who simply appears in three parts, but others are unsure. They in many ways seem oblivious to the existence of the others who stand next to it, but when asked it calls them, "echoes of what was, what is and what may yet come to pass." The Heralds do not have wants, needs, or desires. They are not deities, they do not gain power from worship, and their only known purpose is to guide the divine in an indirect way. They, however, do not interfere with a deities plans directly or indirectly, they only offer wisdom and the knowledge of the ages as required. They are not forced to answer questions, and many times their answers are in riddles that are difficult to understand. They were formed the moment the first deity was formed because the Cosmos required something to guide the deities, and to answer a deities questions about its existence. In a way, it is a parent and in another it is like a programmed artificial intelligence. It understands everything that there is to know, it knows what has happened, what is happening - everywhere and anywhere – and what may come to pass. Many deities theorize that the existence of the Heralds is a mystery… even to itself.
Meldread 03-03-07, 01:42 AM	Thanks Thyrwyn and KeshFerrar. My second post should answer some of those questions you had Thyrwyn as well as raise others. At the moment I'm just trying to formulate how things work in my head. Things are subject to change and I am looking for input. I just find it easier to write it out than try to sort it out all in my mind. Kesh, the world operates exactly like our own. The Yin an Yang concept exists, yes but it exists in everything. One thing is neither one or the other it contains parts of both. It is these two opposing forces that push forward time and creates reality as we understand it. Even the deities themselves don't fully comprehend it, and they - more than mortals - are directly a part of it. They view it as "the Source" and see it as a massive store of energy. They don't know where it came from, some of them probably have theories, some of them might even be right - but over all none of them can be proven. The two halves are not sentient as we would see or understand it. In fact, if you want a literal way of viewing its sentience then it is important to understand that even though it has divided into two parts, it is still largely whole. Its sentience is the combined sentience of all living and nonliving things. All things are, basically, an aspect of this uber being from mortals to the divine. So, when a mortal or a deity looks at all that energy and ask "Where did it come from?" They are really asking, in a way, "Where did I come from?" It is basically like the cosmos struggling to try and understand itself.
Thyrwyn 03-08-07, 02:37 PM	Keep going - you're definitely on the right track here! You're putting a lot of effort into this and it shows. I'll challenge what I see as the weak links, just to keep you honest :) 1. A deity cannot physically enter into the physical world. OK 2. A deity must have worshipers.How many? Is one enough (later you say yes)? But, what do you mean by worshipper: does it mean "dedicated to this god above all others"; or does it mean "accepts that such a god exists"? If, as you seem to imply later, that only the latter type of belief is necessary, how many gods can one person's belief support? How much power does a god with <100 worshippers have? Depending on your answers, then gods built on fear will be either terribly common or terribly rare. How does such a god come into being? 3. No deity is integral to the existence of the physical world.This works, but leads to my big question: Why do gods exist at all? What is it about "sentient beings capable of worship" that made them beleive in the first god? Why do they "need" gods? 4. No deity fully understands its existence or its place in the cosmos.So you say, but your later remarks regarding voluntary splitting seem to contradict that. They need worshippers or they die; they are aware of their perceived roles; they have some sense of self-preservation and continuance. 5. A deity always conforms to the belief of its worshipers. The more a deities followers believe something to be true about a deity, the more the deity begins to transform into that belief. If more than 50% of a deities worshipers believe something to be true, it will be unable to avoid being transformed. A deity that has undergone transformation feels as if it has always existed as such, or feels as if the events projected upon it actually happened.Again, you contradict this later. Think about the "when do gods change" vs "when do gods split dynamic" more. Maybe there is a period of flux, where either outcome is possible, and only the actions in the mortal world can shift the balance. 6. A deity can never physically leave its home plane.This should pose no problems. If each diety has its own plane, then the cosmology is likely to be very fluid, as planes are born and die with their gods. How many gods/planes are you thinking exist or could exist? is there a finite amount or is there an infinite amount possible? 10, 50, 10,000? Question: The deities conform to the beliefs of their worshippers -- but what f the have an experience about which their worshippers know nothing? What if their avatar encounters the avatar of another god that their worshippers have never heard of? Can either god have an opinion on the other? Can they even see each other? ("I can't see you -- my people don't believe in you.") Tread lightly here -- some funny things can happen :) Creating gods with absolutely no free will is really, really tough. If they have any free will at all, imagine the dilemma here: "If I tell my followers about this new god, then my feelings and dealings with this new god will be dictated by them. If I don't tell them, then I can just be me. . .but I don't know who that would be." Maybe gods foster this kind of relationship, just to have someone they can "really talk to." Because of the fear of mortals finding out the true power they hold over them all deities, almost universally, do not inform their worshipers of this innate weakness that they possess. If they knew the truth then mortals, for good or evil, would use the knowledge against them. This is, of course, true and is the primary reason mortals worship them as deities when the truth is that the mortals, collectively as a whole, hold the key to their power.It seems to me that it would inevitably get out. Deities dying for lack of worshippers would need to share this information with their faithful or perish; their clerics and adepts would notice as they started to lose access to higher level spells and abilities while their god became more and more distant. People would figure this out, or be told. Also, some gods would share that information simply because that is what their worshippers believe they would do. (You can't tell me no one has ever asked the benevolent god of knowledge "Where do the gods come from?"). Some deities, to get around this limitation, create what are known as aspects.This is the part where your deities seem to be pretty aware of their true natures. Likewise, when a mortal dies his soul appears before the gods in which he believes. He is given the option to serve them or be returned to the source.what if the gods he believes in hate each other and want different things from him? If a mortal chooses to serve his deity in death, then he is subject to the whims of that deity. His soul remains on that deities plane and is transformed as that deity sees fit. In truth, the mortal loses its individuality as before and becomes a part of the deity it serves. If that deity dies and returns to the source, so too will the mortals soul. You returned to the singular here. . . This does beg the question: It is not the mortal soul that fuels the gods, as the dead do not count as worshippers*, so what is it about the confluence of soul and body that gives living "sentient beings capable of worship" the power to sustain the divine? The Heralds/Fates seem interesting - and need an explanation :) * Why don't the souls of dead worshippers count? If they did you could keep "forgotten" gods around. Your throwing away plot hooks here: abandonded temples to forgotten gods have no teeth, their gods are dead and their magic with them.
Janusunaj 03-08-07, 03:13 PM	I am sorry. But these deities seem nothing more than animals. Maybe you could make most deities ascended mortals. You can still do this and have them the way you intended because deities are immortal.