Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roac 10-10-07, 01:33 PM	I am currently planning my own campaign world and I was trying to figure out a system of laws and punishment for breaking said laws. I know this normally wouldn't be a problem for a campaign but the PCs are likely to break some at some point and may even work in to the story, but I'm having some trouble balancing realism and game balance for punishments. I'll try to post a list of laws I currently have a little later. Any ideas or previous experience would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Orloff 10-10-07, 01:36 PM	Depends. What kind of society are they adventuring in?
Roac 10-10-07, 02:08 PM	well its a fairly strict kingdom with heavy government and church presence thats slightly more similar to the traditional medieval model, but not entirely (thank goodness). They're also in the middle of HEAVY government restrictions on magic but I know for the most part what I'm doing with that. What I'm trying to find the balance between is the punishment of crimes in the means of jail time in terms of practicality, realism, player lenience, and playability. Its impractical for a small kingdom to imprison people for long lengths of time especially for more heinous crimes, but theres still assault, theft, and those sorts of things and trying for it to be more than a slap on the wrist but not a death sentence for every little thing. Edit* I also want to incorporate time in the stocks as a means of punishment
yellowdingo 10-12-07, 07:58 AM	I am currently planning my own campaign world and I was trying to figure out a system of laws and punishment for breaking said laws. I know this normally wouldn't be a problem for a campaign but the PCs are likely to break some at some point and may even work in to the story, but I'm having some trouble balancing realism and game balance for punishments. I'll try to post a list of laws I currently have a little later. Any ideas or previous experience would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! It depends on what your civilization (city-state) is like. Consider the Definitions of Sedition and Treason for a Commonwealth. Sedition: Any Act of Government, Law, Constitution, or Sovereign causing Government, Law, Constitution, or Sovereign to be held in hatred and contempt is a Seditious act. Treason: Any Act that is an assault on the obligation of the State to preserve all it's citizens from criminal Acts is deemed an act of Treason. The Penalty for Treason is a loss of Citizenship for all time. Conceivably these laws preserve the right of the individual to approve every other Act of Law, Constitution, Government, or Sovereign and thus retain control and ensure direct governance. While allowing any who violate these rules by which all agree to adhere too to be expelled for all time. A law doesnt need a penalty if it is covered by a law that provides a penalty for many laws. Basicly the Ideal lawful Good Civilization. Conceivably, a King must have the approval of every citizen to open Diplomatic relations with a foreign state or be deemed guilty of Sedition. Guilty of Sedition means you are guilty of Treason (for having committed a crime) and could therefor be expelled from the walled city into the wilderness beyond. Of course the interpretation of Sedition that you are more likely to have in your own nation will be something like this: Sedition: Any act Causing Government, Law, Constitution, or Sovereign to be held in hatred and contempt is a Seditious act. Subsets to this Law are Defamatory letters: If your letter says the King rapes children (even if it is true), and it is determined that your letter brings the King into Disrepute, then they have the capacity to take you away in the middle of the night under charge of Sedition. Suddenly you dont have the right to speek out against the state, its laws, constitution , or Sovereign. Lawful Evil Government at work.
locustechpriest 10-12-07, 11:12 AM	A truly Lawful government might very well enforce extremely strict laws. In the (very good) anime Kiba there was a nation called (not too originally) Neotopia. In that nation, all laws were absolute, and punished (not just punishable) capitally, by death. The citizens supported this wholeheartedly. Needless to say, those who didn't... That doesn't seem to be what you are going for, of course, but do keep that in mind. In light of what Yellowdingo said, I would strongly suggest that anything that interferes with government image or action should be punishable by a long prison sentence (forced labor if applicable) followed either by expulsion from the kingdom and banishment or, in worse cases, execution (complimented by a much shortened incarceration). Typical thievery will result in a fine of two to seven times the stolen goods value (a full portion of which goes to the owner). Imprisonment and labor may be required for repeat offenses, or severe offenses. Theft of government property, especially that relating to the crown or military may result in banishment or (if abominable) death. Potentially, one might assign markings or mutilation to repeated thievery, rape, murder, or the like. That is all I can think of at the moment.
Roac 10-12-07, 02:20 PM	I like the idea on theft payment in the forms of fines for lesser forms, is was thinking also having a prison sentence tied into the ammount of $ you were unable to pay. As far as sedition goes there probably will be a lengthy prison sentence. I forgot to mention thought that the kingdom is partly a theocracy and crimes against the church are considered particularly heinous. Mabye there could be some sort of church appointed punishment, always could use historical examples for idea farming. I particularly like the idea for visible disfigurements for certain crimes or repeat offenses, though I think I'll stick with the death penalty for serial murderers. Doesn't make much sense to have them running free, particularly in this sort of society. I'm hoping of having a sort of warning system almost with the punishments so if players get caught they will make certain it doesn't happen again, either through being more careful, or not commiting the crime. Would it make sense to "confiscate" a players character if they recieve a long prison sentence and are unable to escape turning them into an npc until released or rescued? Thanks for the ideas.
locustechpriest 10-12-07, 06:16 PM	I was going with somewhat mundane things, and was ready for a good long nap about the time I got around to murder... (speaking of which, that sounds really good about now) ;) With the church's involvement we have a whole slew of new options! Geas/quest for punishments, that's a new take on forced labor, more like forced... quest. Anyway, for prevention we have all variety of divinations that are cast at dawn (or other applicable time of day). Think precog and you pretty much got it down. Piecing together bits of images and words that came to you in a daze like vision from the gods. :)
DrMorganes 10-12-07, 08:01 PM	OK, so we have a theocratic Lawful government. What's the Moral leaning: Good, Neutral, Evil? Each will color the leniency of the judicial system, the punishments meted out, and the relative ease with which one might *ahem* bend the rules. The government's patron (or at a minimum the patron deity of the judicial caste) will also flavor how crime and punishment are handled. Good societies may be focused toward rehabilitation (NOTE: this is not the modern concept of criminal rehabilitation, and "cruel and unusual punishment" is frequently the order of the day) for first-time offenders and for minor offenses. Only very dangerous and/or habitual criminals would be harshly treated. Ferinstance, a first-time thief may spend two days in the stocks in the town square and be required to repay what was stolen, plus some restitution. The area is on a raised dais, high enough for all passers-by to get a clear view of the thief. People would know they did something wrong, but not necessarily know what it was. The guilty party would be "marked" socially for a time after; people would be less trusting until the person behaved well enough to (mostly) erase his transgression. A second offense, or for theft of moderately-valued items, would likely merit a longer stay in the stocks and the hiring of a Crier to loudly proclaim the thief's name and crime. Such a person would be "marked" largely for life, but might be able to still function after keeping his nose clean for a few years. Major theft or repeat offenders would likely be punished in open air and permanently branded in some readily visible manner, perhaps with a ritual scarring or branding of the person's face or hands, so that all who interact with them would know. Good societies are unlikely to use death as a penalty except in extreme cases. Stripping a traitor of citizenship and forcing them into exile will suffice for most. (In most nations citizenship should be a prized possession, and not taken completely for granted like it is in today's Western societies.) Only if an exile returned would he be executed. Treason, however, is perhaps the one major exception. Those guilty of trying to subvert or overthrow the government would likely be executed in a very public manner. A Neutral government is primarily concerned with maintaining the Law; any rehabilitation that may happen is given tertiary consideration at best. Punishments for minor transgressions would be hefty, both to encourage the guilty party not to repeat his crimes and to serve as a deterrent for others. More severe crimes would definitely result in steps to prevent a repeat: someone caught stealing a horse (a expensive piece of property, to be sure!) would have a hand removed. Capital crimes like murder, rape, treason, etc., would likely meet with the death penalty. Evil governments are generally concerned with maintaining power. Laws are used and abused by those in power to remain in power, and punishments for even the most minor transgressions are harsh. "Rehabilitation" takes place in the afterlife. Stealing anything at all gets a hand and an eye removed, for example, and prisoners are routinely put to death for a variety of reasons. Toss magic into the mix as much or as little as you wish. The concept of a Geas as punishment (or to enforce a sentence) has already been suggested. Use of other spells like Dominate can be used to keep those condemned to labor docile and on task. Bestow Curse might be used to reduce a criminal's effectiveness: An average thief taking -6 to his DEX is very neatly and very permanently crippled in his chosen profession, and criminal wizard taking -6 to his INT is now a blithering idiot instead of a scheming criminal mastermind. Good and neutral governments are more likely to use this sort of punishment than evil.
Roac 10-13-07, 07:02 PM	The government itself is aligned more towards neutral than anything though the ruler himself is evil and concerned with keeping his hold on the government so treason is of course going to be punished by death. Even though its not completely evil all of the leaders, church and state, are rather corrupt. I like the idea for the stocks and the crier. I will probably make good use of the "markings" and the magic punishments seem really appealling, especially since the restrictions on magic would getting it lifted much more difficult. The church will be heavily involved with the punishments since its their job to "save" people. I was thinking about certain punishments for spellcasters like sewing their mouths shut, removing fingers, and the like because of the prejudices against them.
locustechpriest 10-14-07, 06:48 AM	sewing their mouths shut Isn't that, erm... fatal? :eek: Whatever spells you are going to use, you'd probably be best sticking with divine, and more specifically, cleric spells. Naturally, a government that is anti-arcane would not want people to know of wizards in the church... A deaf wizard might work well for punishments, that's 20% spell failure on anything with a verbal component. Blindness/deafness is a Clr3 spell, and it is permanent. :) Make judicious use of spells like the Clr1 Command when capturing people, that sort of thing emphasizes the power of the church. But yes, I think you have a good deal of stuff to work with now.
yellowdingo 10-14-07, 07:38 AM	Isn't that, erm... fatal? :eek: Whatever spells you are going to use, you'd probably be best sticking with divine, and more specifically, cleric spells. Naturally, a government that is anti-arcane would not want people to know of wizards in the church... A deaf wizard might work well for punishments, that's 20% spell failure on anything with a verbal component. Blindness/deafness is a Clr3 spell, and it is permanent. :) Make judicious use of spells like the Clr1 Command when capturing people, that sort of thing emphasizes the power of the church. But yes, I think you have a good deal of stuff to work with now. Wizards Caught might have their tongue or vocal cords sliced to prevent verbal spell from being spoken. To cover themselves they might get a sew job on their neck to make it look like they cant pronounce spells.
locustechpriest 10-14-07, 07:42 AM	To cover themselves they might get a sew job on their neck to make it look like they cant pronounce spells. Or they might cast an illusion to make it look like they got a "sew job". But wouldn't that be as good as an admission of guilt? Sure you won't have your tongue cut out, but you have given up your cover. Beyond that, the authorities will assume you've had at least one strike, and might just move on to execution if you ever get caught in the act. This is why I prefer stealth. ;)
Roac 10-14-07, 03:35 PM	I meant the sewing more for when holding them so they can't use spells to escape, you only have to eat/drink every few days and you can always restitch. . . Anyways theres alot of great ideas here, thanks for the help everyone.