Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ajb47 04-28-08, 04:06 PM	Where are the lines for these three subjects in a fantasy world? Especially Folklore and History. I mean, is that something happens near a town or village and decades or centuries later the story is distorted into folklore? Because in a fantasy world, any Folklore type story a village tells could very well be true, so it's not really folklore as that word is generally defined or understood. Add in the Mythology of the deities and how does that change the picture, if at all? I ask because my campaigns haven't had a lot of that folklorish-type depth to them and I'd like to add it in for my next world which I am taking my time building (while I will be running adventure paths and others will be running their games). AJ
Idabrius 04-28-08, 07:11 PM	It really depends on your own tastes how you integrate folklore. Sometimes it is the same as history - sometimes a distortion of history. You could even imagine it replacing history in a psuedo-magical backwards ripple like Terry Pratchett does in some of his Discworld books.
Eldritch_Lord 04-28-08, 08:39 PM	Folklore is simply, in our world, common beliefs and superstitions, and it's the same in a fantasy world. For instance, many people consider hanging horseshoes over doors to be a lucky practice, though it has no appreciable effect. In a fantasy world, they might have that same belief; for example, if a traveling wizard enchanted a horse's shoes to make it faster, it won a race, the people might attribute that to the shoes themselves. Just because magic and sch exist doesn't mean that those superstitions are automatically true; they are just as likely to get things wrong as they are right, as they are still humans (usually) and tend to ascribe motives to unliving things. In fact, folklore is more likely to be wrong than in the real world--if folklore has it that leaving out milk and bread will make brownies come clean your house, only in a fantasy world could those brownies change their mind, demand something else, and decide they hate anyone who puts that out for them. Mythology is a different issue entirely. "Mythology" is derived from the Greek mythos, meaning a collected series of stories or legends, as most know--but it does not necessarily mean false or made-up stories. The mythology of your world could be interpretations of ancient prophecies; they could be stories directly from the gods handed down for generations; they could be empirically-researched reports; or they could be "heavenly status reports" issued by solars and pit fiends every year. Unlike the folklore, and unlike real-life mythology, characters know the gods are there and know that the mythology is true; other than that, it's up to you. Hope that helps.
Idabrius 04-28-08, 08:54 PM	Hmm, my reply seems to have been devoured. Anyhow, folklore and mythology are less extricable in the real world than that. Using the example you cite, the horseshoe over the door is actually not meant for luck, but rather to ward off the Faeries who are prominent in Celtic (both Brythonic and Insular) myth-cycles and have definite Germanic and Mediterraneans analogues. Thus, determining what part of belief belongs to myth and what to folklore is a difficult proposition. I like to play the postmodern Planescape-y point of view by littering the campaign settings with contradictory information and refusing to take a stand on what's real and what's derived from where.
Eldritch_Lord 04-28-08, 10:40 PM	Using the example you cite, the horseshoe over the door is actually not meant for luck, but rather to ward off the Faeries who are prominent in Celtic (both Brythonic and Insular) myth-cycles and have definite Germanic and Mediterraneans analogues. Thus, determining what part of belief belongs to myth and what to folklore is a difficult proposition. While that's how it originally began (Celtic myths FTW!), most folks today don't know their mythology; they took "You'll be lucky if you don't have to deal with the Faeries" and got to "Hmm, horseshoes are somehow lucky..." and that's how you get all the kitschy fake-western towns selling lucky horseshoes (and lucky rabbit's feet, and lucky other stuff). Of course, that supports your points better, so....
Etarnon 04-29-08, 01:06 AM	The word mythology refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity. The Creation Myth, for example. Not that it is mythical, or fanciful, just that it is what it is and that Type of story a la Genesis is mythical in nature, because it explains how the universe was created. Likely the Big Bang Myth. Not that it is mythical, or fanciful, just that it is what it is and that Type of story a la Stephen Hawking is mythical in nature, because it explains how the universe was created. Note that the word Myth does not attribute factualness of the story concerned. Yet, common usage of the word Myth (incorrectly) equates Myth = Lie or fanciful. Folklore is the body of expressive culture, including tales, music, dance, legends, oral history, proverbs, jokes, popular beliefs, customs, and so forth within a particular population comprising the traditions (including oral traditions) of that culture, subculture, or group. It is also the set of practices through which those expressive genres are shared. Folklore can contain religious or mythic elements, it equally concerns itself with the sometimes mundane traditions of everyday life. Folklore frequently ties the practical and the esoteric into one narrative package. It has often been conflated with mythology, and vice versa, because it has been assumed that any figurative story that does not pertain to the dominant beliefs of the time is not of the same status as those dominant beliefs. Thus, Roman religion is called "myth" by Christians. In that way, both "myth" and "folklore" have become catch-all terms for all figurative narratives which do not correspond with the dominant belief structure.
Eldritch_Lord 04-29-08, 01:16 AM	Yet, common usage of the word Myth (incorrectly) equates Myth = Lie or fanciful. To expand on this: Our common understanding of mythology comes from the Greeks, as like I said mythology comes from mythos, a body of related stories. The mythos in question was the group of stories detailing the Greek gods, which we know not to exist. Thus, most take "Greek myths" to mean "Greek fake stories" when it simply means "stories about Greek gods." So to reemphasize, your myths can be as true or as false as you want them to be; folklore, myth, and reality are not in conflict.
ajb47 04-29-08, 09:16 AM	Thanks for all the replies. They are helping me to refine my thoughts and questions some more. Basically what I am wondering is the campaign world has its creation myth, and how the gods came to be, and how the people came to be, and why everyone acts the way they do, which is grouped together under the heading mythology. But in a fantasy world it is also history because the higher level priests pretty much know it to be true, assuming a default-type setting. So is there no real line there for a campaign world? Folklore is almost the same way. The Free Dictionary has it defined as "the traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally", but in a fantasy world, isn't this also just history? As a frinstance - the tale about the fisherman who found a selkie's skin while she was in human form and fell in love with her, took her for wife, but when he realized she wasn't happy, gave her skin back and she swam away, but 9 months later a baby boy was left on his doorstep. That could happen in a fantasy campaign world. But could it be that folklore, being oral, blurs what really happened, so there is a kernel of history, but what really happened is different? As I said, I am hoping this helps me refine my thoughts for my next campaign world. Thanks for the input. AJ
Scion9x 04-29-08, 02:29 PM	In my campaign setting I have "The Truth" regarding what really happened in terms of creation mythology and how the religious orders were formed and what they believe. What the Priesthood teaches is very close to the truth of things, and those that are immediately in their sphere of influence also know the truth. The general populace isn't particularly learned in theology, so the line blurs there for me. There are heretical folk beliefs; superstitions from a bygone era stubbornly clung to the by the people as they are deeply rooted in culture or the Clergy actually adopted pieces of the slightly altered mythology of the previous religion to make the transition more palatable. Assuming an established religion has an established dogma, and potentially written holy texts or prophecies, there is always the possibility of misinterpretation of the layfolk as well for anyone that is literate enough to read, but not learned enough to understand what they are reading and then passing on this incomplete knowledge by word of mouth. There are could be popular fictional stories written by enthusiastic non-Clergy, or Priests of ill intent of the religion or a rival religion writing heretical exegesis that worked their way into the cultural beliefs of the people, but not into the dogma of the religion. For example, both Dante's Inferno and John Milton's Paradise Lost have worked their way into the cultural image of Christianity in a lot of the Christian west, despite neither being particularly grounded in actual theological sources. There is also the real life occurrence of people living in borderlands between religious spheres of influence and incorporating the practices of disparate religions into their lives, creating a unique amalgamation of religions that isn't sacrosanct in either or any of the belief systems they follow.
Eldritch_Lord 04-29-08, 08:12 PM	Basically what I am wondering is the campaign world has its creation myth, and how the gods came to be, and how the people came to be, and why everyone acts the way they do, which is grouped together under the heading mythology. But in a fantasy world it is also history because the higher level priests pretty much know it to be true, assuming a default-type setting. So is there no real line there for a campaign world? And that's where you get mythology as we know it. The higher-level priests know it's true...but the common folk might (A) not believe it, (B) come up with their own interpretation, (C) make up their own myths, and so on. Scion9x made a good point with Dante's Inferno--it and its two companions, Purgatorio and Paradiso, were not officially-sanctioned theology when created; they were simply an allegory for spiritual discovery and such. However, because of their popularity the public thought that they were canonical, and so common beliefs have changed to reflect the concepts of a mostly-fiery Hell, Hell as a big hole in the ground, the existence of Purgatory, and so on, and while some of those have become official teachings, by and large they have not. In the same way, the high-level priests might know that a particular long-held belief isn't true but not be willing to correct it; they might write allegorical documents to teach that are then taken as literal; and myths might be created in other ways. Folklore is almost the same way. The Free Dictionary has it defined as "the traditional beliefs, myths, tales, and practices of a people, transmitted orally", but in a fantasy world, isn't this also just history? As a frinstance - the tale about the fisherman who found a selkie's skin while she was in human form and fell in love with her, took her for wife, but when he realized she wasn't happy, gave her skin back and she swam away, but 9 months later a baby boy was left on his doorstep. That could happen in a fantasy campaign world. But could it be that folklore, being oral, blurs what really happened, so there is a kernel of history, but what really happened is different? Like I said before, in fantasy folklore can be true, but doesn't have to be. Maybe that selkie story is true...or maybe it was a sorceress posing as a selkie whose cloak of water breathing and underwater action was stolen, and selkies don't actually have seal skins...or maybe the fisherman was a sorcerer who dominated the selkie instead of stealing a skin...or maybe something else happened.