Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoriceXII 03-08-08, 03:44 AM	I'm presenting soon to my players that their characters are facing living in a world soon to be overrun by undead--more or less a sort of undead apocalypse. I've been building up for a while to have a lich, reveal his awful plans et al. I've been thinking that rather than have the usual 'the pcs can arrive just in the nick of time to prevent his awful scheme' I'd like for it to already have happened, and for them to find themselves in the position to make decisions, act and quest in ways that will ultimately be effective but aren't a ready handed prevention. What I'd like is some feedback on whether or not this is too heavy handed or not--I don't intend simply for everything they've done to come to nothing (in fact the pcs' native country, which is fairly small, I'm going to rule has a number of benefits because of what they've accomplished) but I do want the lich to be demonstrated to be so powerfully effective that standard solutions won't work. These are some elements that I'm putting into my campaign: 1. A number of areas will be overrun with undead to the point that humanoid beings may only remain there as slaves/food. 2. in areas that are not generally sanctified (ie lands that worship good deities in general and have not had major holy places violated) the dead tend to rise as zombies or skeletons unless burned or destroyed in some fashion. 3. In unsanctified regions the evil dead rise as such beings as wights, spectres, and so on. 4. Areas that are in dispute have increasing numbers joining undead armies led by death knights and skeletal warriors, or else by extra-planar beings in the service of the lich. This part of the campaign is for 10+ characters.
taradusis 03-08-08, 07:23 PM	I think a lot would depend on the age of the players? Plus do your players like a happy ending?
GoriceXII 03-09-08, 08:33 PM	My players ultimately will prefer a happy ending, though they're mature enough I think to expect that it will to some extent depend on them. They're in their late thirties. I was thinking of having the main influx of undead be in one region/country so that it is not TOO overwhelming--thoughts? BTW: This is sort of the region (I don't have a good hand for maps so I'm going to describe) N. of pcs' position: - I had planned for the keep and two towns there to have been horribly overrun, plain and simply, cutting off travel to any country to the north. West of pcs' position - a fortified toll bridge over a river (no plans for this) - immediately south of that a chapterhouse for a holy knightly order - farther west is a lumber town (I planned for this place to be badly overrun by undead advancing through the town) - beyond that a mountain keep and a town below (I thought that perhaps the lich has for the moment seized this well fortified position for a HQ) South of the pcs' position - several small farming villages in a fertile valley, protected by manors held by nobles. (no plans yet for this) East of the pcs' position (where they came from) - a powerful mountain keep protected by ancient spells (laid by a Gold Dragon and a Dwarf King before said Dwarf kingdom passed out of living memory) - a smaller keep protecting the entrance to the riverine valley to the south and west. - Various mountain villages that herd sheep and goats - a keep right on the river with a prosperous town that produces clay, fish and lumber. (this town and keep are under heavy attack already) My thought was that the lich would command a vast encirclement on the land itself--possibly getting advanced groups of necromancers to gather undead in wilderness and then march them at all four major points of the compass into this territory.
Cranewings 03-10-08, 10:55 AM	I think you should run it like a movie. When I run a horror game, I go online and look up art work and short stories on websites like live journal and deviant art to give me fresh ideas. As long as the players don't know where it is coming from, it can seem really creepy. Also remember that you can make the world as bleak as you want, but it is impossible to be scary all the time. If you try, everyone will just become numb to the situation. Add in some comic releaf. For example, I played in a modern day horror game. It was pretty well done. We were hired by churchmen to assassinate the pope because he had been replaced by a doppleganger. The mission was lovingly refered to as, "Pop the Pope." It was easy to make jokes about, but when the game went back to being serious, it was very serious.
taradusis 03-10-08, 10:16 PM	Well gorice,you know my thinking on the Unlife Bomb scenario. Perhaps a rise in isolated undead like a serial killer who becomes a mohrg who creates a few troublesome zombies? Perhaps an ancient battlefield yields up it's dead? A flying undead would be interesting. Do you own Libris Mortis?
GoriceXII 03-11-08, 11:32 AM	Crane: I know what you mean--kind of like the way say any good action/horror is done. Dawn of the Dead 2004 is a good example of that probably. I get you too about achievable goals and things like that. taradusis: yes, I own Libris Mortis--any suggestions on how to best make use of it?
Johnathan_Vagabond 03-11-08, 12:10 PM	If the PCs aren't going to directly intervene with the liches undead apocolpyse, their efforts might best be spent taking control of essential resources and the capacity to produce them (farm lands, mines, etc) and relocating the living to protect them. Creating some vestige of a sanctuary. Another good series of goals would involve checking the effects undead apocolypse slightly. Saving the results of civilization like philosophy, medicine, craftsmen secrets, literature, art, etc. Preserving the intellectual development is nearly as crucial to maintaining it as the resources are. Things that check the liches power would help too. Building alters and consecrating/hallowing graveyards, gallows, dungeons, and seedy places. Burying holy artifacts in caves and forests that grant invisibility to undead to create safe havens for the living they don't rescue. Inscribing glyphs that only allow living creatures to pass them on the entrances to caves and hiding places, to provide a safe haven for those living they failed to rescue. Hallowing places and then binding spells like aid, detect evil, or bless. Enough of these in the liches territory (especially at crucial places, like the bridge he has yet to take) will at the least slow him down and at the best check the undead apocolypse for a time. The campaign sounds absolutely riveting. Zombies always make for good comic releif, since I don't suppose many masters choose to redress them, they could have worn something humorous at the time of death, or skeletons with their heads on backwards, and any other number of mindless undead things. I personally like chaining them to a thick tree and letting them try to pull away (which they usually aren't strong enough to do).
Cranewings 03-11-08, 12:39 PM	Vagabond, your idea is awesome. Your ideas for adventures in that setting make me want to run it. I just have one problem with dnd. Dnd is set up like a videogame or a fantasy novel. The characters start out weak and fight small monsters. Later, they become strong and fight the BBEG. The end. So in that horror setting, the characters would start out running from zombies. Later, the powers gained from experiance would force them into a confrontation with the BBEG. How in the world could you run this game with a 10th level cleric in the party? The only option would be to make more and more powerful undead, which just wouldn't seem to make sense. In my game, I nerfed magical armor. They fought an 8th level assassin that only had an AC of 16 and they killed him in three combat rounds. This way, powerful npcs still can die by the level 1 sword. 7 guys with bows are a massive threat to a single 6th level character. Even still, the party is becoming so powerful, even as they approach 4th level, I'm having to change the nature of the game and I'm planning ahead for the politics of 6th level characters in a low level world. For the horror game, this is what I would do: 3d6 for attributes, nerf magical armor, no additional hps after 9th level.
kenji508 03-11-08, 01:56 PM	Cranewings: Revealing the big monsters at the beginning usually dos'nt happen in D&D, but it works great for horror. The giant undead wont just appear out of nowhere, they players just don't fight them. At low levels the players might have an adventure based entirely around such a monster, avoiding (or outright fleeing) it while fighting weaker enemies. It makes it much more personal when the players are high enough level to fight them, and when they finally beat something that terrorized them at low levels, they will get a real sense of accomplishment. No nerfs are needed, just a dramatic buildup.
GoriceXII 03-11-08, 01:57 PM	Hm...very interesting. Vagabond: I like your idea about saving areas through consecration--that makes a lot of sense. You're right--the zombie and skeleton undead can be comical--or even other kinds (I loved the Evil Dead series and zombie films in general) even in the midst of being horrible. Taking your idea I might have a zombie minstrel group shambling around clutching broken instruments and floppy hats, things like that from time to time. Cranewings: I've been building this up a while in my campaign--my pcs are tenth level already. My way of thinking is that while a band of ghouls are a nuisance to characters at this level, an army of low level undead is appalling. My pc group was escorting a caravan of important people through very civilized territory when the outbreak began--in spite of their level half the caravan was overrun and they were forced to flee to hole up in a monastery. The effect is more say like in the original Dawn of the Dead--very tough people with the equivalent of technology more trying to figure out what to do than genuinely afraid of individual undead. I think it is very possible to have fun with this at higher levels.
Johnathan_Vagabond 03-11-08, 03:52 PM	There are a number of ways to use low level undead to make life difficult. -They can swarm a PC, with 8 of them assisting each other in a grapple. -They can be buffed with a mid level evil cleric. -Pervading evil can desecrate a large area or unhallow it. -Unique combinations of zombies such as zombie wolves and zombie ogres. -Zombies can also be diseased with anything, including a slow acting zombie transformation. -Zombie hordes surrounding creatures while incorporeal dead attack from above or below. -Theres no need to make zombies and skeletons obvious, dressing them up as normal people can reverse a rescue. -Patching zombies and skeletons up in thin walls can leave the adventurers suddenly cornered. -Zombies and skeletons can be sacrificed in traps, making disarming the closing walls more dangerous. -Casting protection against good on a mindless undead makes it more dangerous, as do a number of low level spells. -Skeletons retain weapon skills, meaning they can bombard opponents with arrows or javelins while others block the way. -Friends that have been turned into zombies cause emotional distress And most importantly, the dead outnumber the living by a whole lot per one.
Cranewings 03-11-08, 05:45 PM	Vagabond, Gorice, good points. I dig it.
Werral 03-11-08, 06:08 PM	Have you seen the short movie "I Love Sarah Jane" (on itunes I think)? It's about were zombies overrun the nation and people just have to deal with them. It's not really horror - more, "How to live with zombies". But I think bleak is, "This is a terrible situation." Too bleak is, "And there's nothing you can do about it." Of course you could always have your cake and eat it with the old Time travel" cliche! The lich wins hands down and all is lost, unless they can take him out as a high level wizard 500 years in the past (or whatever).
McPoyo 03-12-08, 10:42 AM	Could always mix it up with the zombies to make them more dangerous, too. Slap on a modified lycanthropy type effect combined with a con damaging poison. The whole thing functions like a Disease (Including saves), and once they contract it, they have to make the saves every day or lose con points. If the hit 0 Con from the disease only, they rise 1d4 minutes later as zombies. If you want to make it retain it's effectiveness in a world with Clerics, just make it incurable. Once you contract it from a zombie's slam attack, you can never be rid of it, only stave it off. Makes for especially poignant encounters if the PCs have to decide between letting someone die a horrific death and rise as a zombie, or give them a mercy killing to prevent it from happening when they get close, especially if it was to a king or some other important person (family, friend, etc). Of course, your players have to be pretty mature to handle something like that, but you get my general gist. Plus, the PCs have a higher chance of contracting it, but being able to either A) Stave off the effects through better saves than the peasants all around them, or B) Have access to spell effects to restore the lost Con and stave off the inevitable zombification. Since it seems a little too bleak to make it permanent, perhaps have it tied to the Lich himself, so that unless he is eventually defeated, everyone will eventually die to it, or the clerics in the world will end up preparing nothing but Restoration spells in order to try to save as many people as they can, and they will slowly succumb to attacks and the like due to lack of offensive spells that way. Mayhaps make the disease a Corpsecrafting type effect (Since you have Libris Mortis and all) that can be applied to undead and always raises them as zombies. Make it expensive and time consuming to add, and that way you have a convenient reason why every zombie this guy made isn't infected. Might add a level of "Oh crap" factor to the PCs when they realize that some zombies are more dangerous due to this. Make them act a little more paranoid whenever they see one, as they aren't sure whether or not it might infect them with Zombie-itis. I may have to steal your campaign hook, you know.
GoriceXII 03-12-08, 01:43 PM	Werral: I haven't, I'll have to check it out. And good point--I think the pcs will be able to do something about it. I will definitely have the evil visited upon the land be focused a lot on the lich. McPoyo: Thanks :) I think that I really like both your ideas. In my last session my pcs encountered a lone zombie trudging away from an abandoned farmstead, and it was not the first of single or small groups they had encountered as they moved through the country. So the Psion suggested capturing it. They were disturbed to find that it had clearly been dead for some time--but what bothered them was the grave dirt and rotting bits of shroud. They began to realize that the dead were not merely being summoned or animated but actually rising from their graves. So yeah, I think that discovering your effects will be bleak and disturbing but if they realize that they can end it by defeating the lich then I am hoping that will work--it just makes defeating the BBEG more important because he's not planning an evil scheme, he's already put it in place. The zombie disease idea is cruel and unusual, and I really think it should be used, though I agree that it shouldn't be every zombie, perhaps just those created by the lich's personal application or maybe also those of his lieutenants.
McPoyo 03-12-08, 02:33 PM	Could always make it a Kobold Zombie only thing :P Call it the Curse of Pun-Pun :P
Janusunaj 03-12-08, 03:09 PM	I'd like to suggest that you have one single overly large refuge for the living left in the world, to demonstrate the lich'es power. This city is the only thing standing in the necromancer's way.
McPoyo 03-12-08, 03:16 PM	Would give plenty of ways for PC quests if you made a haven like that. Mindthralls of the Lich damaging the protective Whatever that keeps his horde out. The Lich finding a ritual that might drop the barrier unless X occurs instead. Someone inside was actually infected by Zombie-itis and succumbs to it but no one realizes it until they rise from the dead, etc. Tons of amazing plot hooks there.
Werral 03-12-08, 07:46 PM	McPoyo: These are really more horror movie style zombies - they bite you, you become a zombie, you bite your friends. Peter Jackson's Braindead springs to mind. Another thing zombies do in movies is keep coming even after you've hacked them to bits - how about using the undead swarm rules - for every HD (7 HP) of damage they do to a zombie they create 1 HD of undead swarm - cept the undead swarm is actually dismembered bits of zombie that won't give up. (the trick to not making it too cheesy is to dangle the possiblity of time-travel BEFORE the internal organs really hit the fan so it doesn't feel too manipulated). Another cool monster is a Collosus, it was in an ancient Dragon mag (1e rules, basically a load of boiled and moulded zombie flesh into one big zombie). I never ran one, but I had my players find the lab and it freaked them out. Good (but weak) clerics who lose their faith and convert to worship of the lich (or his patron), desperate villagers who sacrifice others to the undead in the hope theyll be left alone. "It's all right for you to moralise in your enchanted magic keep, but what about us?". And seriously man, time travel rocks - you can totally screw up the whole world, run them through the end of everything and have this option run on them. Maybe they decide to whack the lich as a 1st level wizard (only of course they miss the exact time and face a still super powerful (but beatable foe), or maybe he's a wee baby and it's the old "Would you killl Hitler as a child" chestnut. And of course they'd have to nonlethal everyone for who's to know which 2nd level warrior is their ancestor or that of their friends/family? Plus who's to say that they don't inspire another wizard to lichdom with their actions.
GoriceXII 03-12-08, 08:17 PM	Hm...how about not a LOT of time travel but some? I'm intrigued by this idea--I don't want to just get rid of npcs I really like and so on (though potions of longevity, stasis type spells and such could help with this) but I remember one of the cool things about a story by Michael Moorcock is that the heroes go off on an epic quest only to find that the epic battle has been fought and lost--those they are trying to save are wretched desperate refugees. Too much? The pcs have made a couple of havens possible--beefing up a holy temple in one city, repairing a magical tower guarded by the spirit of a Silver Dragon in another. I think it would be kind of like rewarding their efforts by having such havens exist.
Werral 03-13-08, 03:56 AM	Well I wouldn't make it a one way ticket - when they come back they may find some changes as a side-effect, but they could be subtle - the odd minor NPC may have a different alignment or be a different class. Some people may be the same but in different positions (so a guy they knew as a general might be a sergeant or vice versa), people might be married to different people and so forth. The magical havens are a great idea - also it creates contrast between those lucky enough to be in one of the havens and those not so lucky. And there's always the dram aof say a mother or father, whose kids/spouse are "out there"
Johnathan_Vagabond 03-13-08, 10:24 AM	To play devil's advocate, is time travel really necessary? There are, after all, a number of other ways to accomplish the overthrow of the lich without doing messy continuum stuff. (Especially since killing the lich as a living necromancer means he never becomes the lich, and the PCs never have to kill him, but then they don't go back and kill him, and he becomes the lich, so they DO go back and kill him, but THEN he doesn't become the LICH, so they DON'T go back and kill him, EXCEPT he ISN'T killed so he DOES become the lich, so then they HAVE to go back...) You could see if they'll embrace the darker than good but lighter than evil side, and have the assist (or become) and neutral necromancer that wrests control of the undead armies away from the lich. Neutralize the lich alone by stealing his phalcerty and destroying him. Or a spell similar to stasis. Or a binding or banishing ritual, turning his focused horde of undead into a generally milling about horde of undead. Use a ritual that turns undead into living (not dead, only undead) and duke it out by stealing the undead army (and creating some unusual characters in the process). Completing rituals that give mindless undead minds, and allow them to think for themselves (and possibly turn on the lich). Slowly expand the magic that protects the dwarven kingdom, to where the lich and his army are pushed back. Treaty with other intelligent undead (grey area) against the lich, surely they have ambitions. Or create (I thought someone said there was a template for one of these once) a good lich (or at least neutral). Have a second epic battle Trick the lich into being separated from his magical powers (a Disjunction with a minor artifact hidden on a PC.) Perhaps the lich had children while alive. Face the lich with his grandchildren or great grandchildren. The challenge is to get them there alive (not undead), and then let the lich have a conscience, nothing says he can't have one. Blood magic that neutralizes the liches control, using his progeny to counter the effects of the undead (possibly in a terribly gruesome way, or just PC revelation). A great sealinging off of the lich. The combined power of all the remaining living mages and the work of all the remaining living people can surely trap the lich 'forever' (dun dun dunnnn...). A quarenteen, with permanent walls of force, ditches, and dimensional anchors (on hallowed grounds). Trick the lich into focusing his undead army on one spot (the dwarven city is a good one) that is actually a volcano, and use an artifact to force a powerful erruption, incinerating much of the undead horde, then going after the lich while he tries to rebuild his army. All of these avoid the messiness of time travel.
McPoyo 03-13-08, 10:30 AM	The "Make a spell to make all mindless undead gain minds" thing seems to me like they'd make an undead nation. Perhaps on a frozen continent to the north. Or something similar to another fantasy game :P
WHW4 03-13-08, 10:39 AM	One thing you may not have considered - time travelling into the future. Not very far, just a few years, or months even... Our group did something similar when fighing a... you guessed it... lich. He was on the rise and while thwarting one of his cronies, we were catapulted 10years into the future. His undead legions were everywhere and only a few bastions of life were holding out still. Short story... we ended up defeating him, but stayed there in the future. In the campaign, the healing is still continuing and will for a long while. To the world, it seemed as if we had died/disappeared and then shown up, all looking exactly the same as when we left. It was quite sobering when, after being flung into the future, the once green and forested landscape around us was lbackened and twisted with blight. It was a new twist on an old trope.
GoriceXII 03-13-08, 01:18 PM	A lot of interesting possibilities. I kind of like the idea of a classic 'search for the phylactery' while the numbers of undead grow. The pcs know that friends, relatives and allies are desperately trying to keep the undead numbers at bay, refugees fleeing to sanctified havens, fortresses beginning to grimly hold out. However here's a question--if the focus is on destroying the phylactery, will anything that follows be anti-climactic? What I was thinking was of how in the LOTR novels there is the 'scouring of the Shire' part where the hobbits return home only to find it corrupted by the war and by Saruman. What if some old enemies of the pcs were made undead or became necromancers and subtly and quietly took over a non-sanctified area of their country? Does that seem like something a lich would do?
McPoyo 03-13-08, 04:10 PM	Yes. Lieutenants are always useful, especially where vast numbers of undead are concerned.
Drackthor 03-13-08, 05:07 PM	Use a ritual that turns undead into living (not dead, only undead) and duke it out by stealing the undead army (and creating some unusual characters in the process). If you do this, I heavily suggest having one man in the middle of the now-alive army look at himself, dust himself off and say "Uuuhnf. Where...where am I? Oh no, my muffins!"
Drackthor 03-13-08, 05:10 PM	The "Make a spell to make all mindless undead gain minds" thing seems to me like they'd make an undead nation. Perhaps on a frozen continent to the north. Or something similar to another fantasy game :P Their new leader being an Undead Elf Ranger? :tongue:
Johnathan_Vagabond 03-13-08, 05:23 PM	Well, there's almost certainly powerful spells that are woven to protect a phlacerty, so you could keep it interesting in any number of ways. 1-The lich is bound to have a number of divinations on his phlacerty, stealing it means he's sure to know. Not just that its been stolen, but by who, how, and where it is now. 2-Contingencies are exceptionally dangerous. A contingency teleport, polymorph any object, curse, etc etc cast upon the phlacerty would put the players in a new position, especially if the curse was to destroy the soul and body of whoever broke the phlacerty 3-Certain items are far to difficult to destroy with ease, if you haven't revealed the phlacerty to them, then make it unusual. Woven in spell so that only 'bloodline' or the lich himself may destroy it. The One Ring had to be tossed in Sauron's winter home, the phlacerty could be destroyed somewhere equally dangerous. 4-A misleading phlacerty is good too. Look, a precious diamond neclace, shatter the diamond. Job well done. Oops, turns out its not the diamond, but the setting. Or maybe its not the necklace, but the cloth that held it. 5-A dead lich reappears at their phlacerty in how long, 1d4 days or something? Once he becomes aware its stolen, he kills himself (figuratively speaking). The PCs are trapped in their race to reach the destruction point. 6-Perhaps the lich is a point of control for the forces creating the undead horde, his death means unloosing a torrent of negative energy more dangerous than a horde. The PCs can use the phlacerty to bargain with the lich. An unwilling and dangerous ally 7-Two phlacerties. The lich has (by some special power) constructed two. They reform in a day if not destroyed side by side. The lich wears one, the PCs have the other. 8-The PCs must trick the lich into destroying his own phlacerty (since he's the only caster strong enough to). 9-Possession. Ghosts, demons, or other oddities are bound to the phlacerty, and possess the PCs when they approach. Their abilities are hindered, and none of them can do harm to the phlacerty. 10-Beacon: not only is the lich aware the phlacerty has been stolen, so are all the undead under his control. The slow, shambling march towards the PCs begins. They are shunned from villages and safe havens, hunted by creatures that do not sleep, and must find a way to destroy this seemingly indestructable phlacerty. Is that how you even spell phlacerty? It doesn't look right to me...
taradusis 03-13-08, 06:45 PM	Phylactry. I would trot out some of the more unusual creatures from Libris Mortis. Brain in a jar and a vampire that shifts into a cloud of sand. Maybe a legion of mummies ,mummy rot is similar to the disease idea mentioned earlier? A zombie who runs really fast but trips over his own feet? A zombie bride? Random Thoughts.
Werral 03-14-08, 10:03 AM	The phylactery is the very same item the PC's used to set up the magical defence of their keep and the lich has had them hoodwinked the whole time. Maybe it's one of their magical items. Hide the thing in plain sight. Johnathon - the messiness of continuity is, for me, the whole fun of it. WHW4 - going to the future is a good way for them to witness the end - maybe they find themselves as undead in the sway of the lich lord. I've alway wanted to do something about like the Terminator movies where the foe is too powerful to face but the PC's have lots of fun fleeing (you know a big bad guy they can knock down but not kill and that just keeps coming at them - their own undead selves could be a good one). Also, if the people in the future know them as vampires, they may find themselves under attack from their friends and family, convinced they're working for the lich. What if the "Scouring of the Shire" was done by one of their allies - bargaining with the lich to save his homeland/true love or whatever. Or maybe an attempt to "Fight fire with fire" (as in undead with undead). A kind of necromantic blowback.
GoriceXII 03-14-08, 10:25 AM	Werral: now that is actually rather insidious. I was thinking of making it a dead political enemy actually but why not both? Since we're talking time travel, how about this: The pcs' patron falls somewhat out of favour (not entirely but somewhat) due to the powerful adventuring party being absent (just not able to accomplish the same amount of stuff)--while another up and coming adventuring party doesn't QUITE fill their shoes but are better than nothing and are perhaps a little more politically savvy. Meanwhile THAT party's patron rises rapidly to greater political heights. Let's say that it is this person, we'll call him Lord So and So for now, is the person who becomes influenced by the undead--to fight fire with fire. Taradusis: I agree, there should be guardians that are unusually effective. I'll have to seriously peruse the book and look at the options. Jonathan Vagabond: The Phylactery as you have shrewdly pointed out is a very key issue. You've given me some serious options to consider and I do truly appreciate it.
taradusis 03-15-08, 10:13 AM	I had some thoughts on set encounters.An awakened zombie with platemail and a heavy lance,mounted on a zombie heavy warhorse with platemail barding. Six of these undead Cataphracts could guard a bridge or ford,two at each end and two in the middle. If the Pcs must cross the river because the're escorting refugees,then a second force could hit after the Cataphracts have been eliminated. A good backup force would be a lacedon who attacks when the refugees are halfway across? Improve the lacedon by giving it a stench attack like a ghasts? Scent tends to drift in the direction of a rivers current so the Sea Ghast could let his scent drift down and affect the refugees and their livestock before attacking from upriver?How about a Juggernaut? An awakened zombie ogre with an ogre-sized halberd and platemail armor. Mounted on an zombie dire elephant who has Platemail barding. A Howdah containing skeleton archers? Support troops of a few dozen zombie kobolds,like infantry following a tank? Slow moving but tough to stop,and citadel minatures used to sell a figure that looked like this called undead war mastodon?If your Pcs still have the pet dragon from earlier adventures have it attacked by a zombie dragon? As a minigame let each player roleplay their pet in aerial combat. This will let them have the fun of being a dragon for one combat then pick which outcome you like and make that be the one that actually occured?An awakened elf zombie with a few levels of ranger. Has a pack of zombie dogs or wolves? Stalks the party when the're guarding refugees,slows them down for another force to catch up? The Ripe Ranger attacks from the rear with arrows,when the Pcs arrive to deal with him he retreats and signals his hounds to attack from the front or sides,Pcs must decide how to deal with this,split up,attack hounds,pursue Ripe Ranger,etc. Basically this is a tireless,unsleeping enemy who stalks and harrasses the PCs.
GoriceXII 03-15-08, 05:40 PM	taradusis you are one sick and clever individual, that's for sure. I LOVE these--you've given me some really good ideas over the last year and a half or so for my campaign but these are some of the most fun. Ripe Ranger: yes indeed, check. Cataphractoi: I think this might be more a spell waster than anything--which I'm looking forward to. My pcs are likely to overestimate this one... 14 Tons of Fun: Oh boy, am I going to enjoy this attack. They won't know what hit them--I rarely do anything like this at all. Undead Dragon: I already did a Bone Dragon, which is tough but not unkillable at their level. A ghost or zombie dragon might just blow them away. However the Bone Dragon nearly killed the Blue and the Pc with it--down to just a couple of hit points.
taradusis 03-16-08, 02:30 PM	Further thoughts. Quite awfulReminds me of the monty python routine about what's the carrying capacity for an african sparrow? The MM has an entry for zombie wyverns. They could be ordered to carry logs or boulders and bomb PCs? Perhaps covered with flasks of alchemical fire and kamikazee the PCs?Now most people who want to run a zombie apocalypse want to use D+D zombies and modify them to be more like what you see in a romero movie? I've always felt that it would be easier to remove a ghouls Paralysis attack. This leaves ghoul fever which makes the undead contagious. And since ghouls hunger for human flesh this makes them attack the living quite savagely. The intelligence of ghouls is superior to zombies and makes them more of a challenge to the pcs,this makes the ghouls more interesting for the DM,who often has to "dumb down"his action to make a beleivable zombie. A ghoul has a better Mv which makes it hard for pcs to just run away. So,to sum up,a D+D ghoul is closer to Romero's version of a zombie than a D+D zombie is provided you remove the Paralysis attack.
Eldritch_Id 03-17-08, 01:50 AM	First, a quick question: What are the goals of the Lich. That should impact the campaign heavily. My thought was that the BBEG has achieved his goal (at least partly), but was is his goal? World conquest? Eradication of all living beings? Pardon my candor, but I think a less-used goal would make for a more memorable campaign & a more reasonable goal for a being 'beyond' mortal cares. My suggestion would be the lich seeking to strengthen the negative plane's connection to your main campaign plane. In this scenerio, the resulting infestation and a possible weakening of positive energy effects (such as turning, healing, and life in general - nudge, nudge, wink, wink) actually being by-products of his greater goal. Note that negative energy effects would also be enhanced (spontaneous reanimation, turning resistance, etc.) Why the lich is strengthening the negative plane connection would still need to be answered, though. For the phylactery, the lich could have separated his soul into multiple parts with each destroyed phylactery weakening the lich until the PC's could finally hope to face him, and possibly halting/reversing the success the lich has already achieved with the current situation. The phylacteries could even be other undead creatures close to the lich that are greatly strengthened by their containing the essence. Hope I helped!
GoriceXII 03-17-08, 02:42 AM	Borrowing from David Gemmell and Brian Keene, my ultimate goal for the lich is for him to release his 'bretheren' from the void of Limbo. Essentially he is not really human but one of the most powerful members of an ancient and forgotten race. In order for them to be free they must destroy life as it is currently known (save for some slaves for food perhaps). Thus the evil in the undead is actually not really the former people but rather stolen memories taken by these beings, that are of different grades of intelligence and power. This is a secret of the undead that is not known to many who yet live--though I may have some creatures (great wyrm dragons and other ancient and powerful creatures) have some clue about it but not complete knowledge. The idea is that this race was trapped by ancient gods (I have the sort of layered idea that different groups of gods have reigned in succession, the ones in question are long gone) and your 'negative shift' idea works well for this. More good ideas taradusis, which makes up for the awful joke...you seem to be in a Monty Python mood. But...I won't bite. I won't. I won't....(takes pills)
Werral 03-17-08, 08:07 PM	I thought ghouls are more Romero too. What if you had: Ghouls with monk levels (flurry of bites) but described them as slinky fast zombies with a mean appetite. Ghosts that are formed from dreams rather than actual dead spirits - only the dreamer can defeat them. Some kind of hellish zombie treadmill powered tank (think how HR Giger might draw one). Armoured stone giant zombies throw rocks from its turrets while skeletal hands fire repeating crossbows and gibbering ghouls dash form its belly to drag the dead and dying into its maw.
taradusis 03-18-08, 11:41 PM	Sidebar thoughts....Can't be turned as undead,animated by an earth elemental and can only be turned by a cleric who can turn or destroy earth elementals. Looks like an undead though. Powered up by electrical attacks so a tough enemy for the blue dragon? A logical servant for a lich. An insiduous race from MMII. They each cast spells at 14th lev. As undead eaters they could be foes of the lich and the reason why hes leaving his home plane? Pcs could think they've found an ally untill they find a zombie "ranch"where the avolakia have stored townspeople? Hard to come up with an interesting lich. Mummylords,ghoul lords,vampire princes but once you reach the level of a lich it's hard to create the ultimate BBEG. Perhaps a dark queen with a disguise? The dark queen looks like a beauty from the waist up but has skeletal legs from the waist down? Have the face look like wee jas cultist to give more backstory. Have her constantly stand behind a desk and only reveal the deformity at the adventures end? A throne with rods running thru it,two to the front and two thru the sides. allows a small mob of skeletons to walk it around. Decorate it with a few dozen crawling claws that attack on command. Suitable for a necromancer but not the lich?
Holy_Beholder 03-18-08, 11:59 PM	They're in their late thirties. Be bleak, and use sound effects. However seeing as your players are all pretty old you might want to check if they have a heart condition or something. Seeing as your supposed to be quiet in nursing homes and stuff, its something to consider. If they have a heart condition, or something like it, refrain from scaring them too much. Also if any of your players live in the nursing home, never play there. If you don't have to worry about heart conditions, and nursing homes, and stuff like that then feel free to be very, very bleak. The players can lose, resurrection spells don't exist, low level foes are a threat even towards the end. Drastically reduce experience awards.
Werral 03-20-08, 04:59 AM	Be bleak, and use sound effects. However seeing as your players are all pretty old you might want to check if they have a heart condition or something. Seeing as your supposed to be quiet in nursing homes and stuff, its something to consider. If they have a heart condition, or something like it, refrain from scaring them too much. Also if any of your players live in the nursing home, never play there. If you don't have to worry about heart conditions, and nursing homes, and stuff like that then feel free to be very, very bleak. The players can lose, resurrection spells don't exist, low level foes are a threat even towards the end. Drastically reduce experience awards. This is excellent advice.
Johnathan_Vagabond 03-20-08, 09:31 AM	Late 30's = Heart Condition? I guess I'll pass on at 40. :p Out of curiosity, when you say for 10+, do you mean level 10 and up or ten people playing 10 PCs?
Holy_Beholder 03-20-08, 12:47 PM	Late 30's = Heart Condition? I guess I'll pass on at 40. :p At 40 thats when the senses are shot. My parents are both in their 40s, and my dad is almost entirely deaf, my mom has bad hearing, and bad vision, and my dad has mediocre vision. They were both lucky enough to not have a heart condition yet though.
taradusis 03-28-08, 07:38 PM	Some additional undead thoughts. A zombie hill giant. Armed with a greatclub and a quiver with three giant-sized throwing spears. Wears a filthy cave bear hide that acts as hide armor. Has a small iron throne bolted to the top of his head to provide seating for "The Master." Carries a large sack with treasure?A kobold sorceror with knowledge of the Animate Dead spell though not a necromancer. Must concentrate to cast spells in battle while bouncing around on his throne. Has an inflated ego. Likes to snooze while Blaster strolls along,will encourage Blaster to run for the fun of it.A dire weasel familiar of the Master. Hyperkinetic prankster. Likes to climb up blasters bearskin rug and sleep in a sack hidden under the iron throne.Could be upgraded to a storm giant/epic level kobold sorceror later on?A flesh golem made from the flesh of seven angelic beings. Angeleyes is basically a free-willed flesh golem with celestial template. Angeleyes has gotten the support of a town and its clerics and paladins in her feud with the Frankenfiend. Angeleyes has one angellic wing and the beautiful eyes of an angel.A flesh golem made from the flesh of seven hellish hussies. Basically a free-willed flesh golem with the fiendish template. Frankenfiend has seduced the mob boss of a small town and gotten the people from the wrong side of the tracks to support her in her feud with Angeleyes. Frankenfiend has one batwing and fiery eyes.These two seem to avoid direct conflict and cause small civil wars wherever they go? Sort of like that episode of star trek with the half white/half black guys.Imagine a gargantuan dragon winging thru the night,as it draws near a city it releases 3 million bats who fly down and attack the city. A zombie dragon could fly by day or by night and behave in a "pre-programmed "fashion. A vampire dragon could use it's gaseous cloud ability in creative fashion and if it dropped it's bats before dawn it would have a logical reason to hide?What sort of bat swarms to use? Ordinary bats would be ok. Zombie bats would be a little tougher. Vampire bat swarms from the Libris mortis would be a little too tough. Remember the idea isn't to wipe out the city but to drive them batty.Lesser vampires could be added to lead individual swarms,I think un-needed,but could be used.Just some undead thoughts to drop into your campaign as needed.
Werral 03-28-08, 08:18 PM	When I read the word "Slinky" I thought more of something like a huge animated spinal-cord from a dragon or giant or something even bigger and meaner. It'd be much like an actual slinky but huge, undead and utterly psychotic.
DoctorZalost 03-29-08, 02:49 AM	Hm...very interesting. "...I might have a zombie minstrel group shambling around clutching broken instruments and floppy hats, things like that from time to time." I lol'd. That's an absolutly hysterical mental image.