Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 02-24-08, 03:16 PM	I figure enhancement bonus-granting items (headband of intellect, periapt of wisdom, cloak of charisma) seem like fairly good investments to put into the chief of state. Since they last indefinitely, the items can be passed from generation to generation indefinitely at no additional cost (or, from an outgoing consul to an incoming one, or whatever -- the enhancers might be the property of the office, not the individual). Inherent bonus items, like tomes of clear thought/understand/leadership and influence, are a lot pricier, for two reasons. One is that they're just more expensive per point of bonus. The other is that each time the king (or whatever) changes, new tomes must be produced for the heir, being consumed each time. If we say that a human king reigns for about 10,000 days (about 27 years -- a fairly long average reign for a fairly stable state), and we suppose that they use all three tomes, costing 412,500 gp total, then amortized over the whole reign that costs 41.25 gp per day. Perhaps not unreasonable, given the improvement in the quality of executive decision-making, but it does add up. Of course, if you're dealing with an elf kingdom where an average reign might be 140 years, then that cuts the cost to about 8 gp per day. Then, of course, there are people lower ranking than the king/empress/president/caliph/etc who are still in positions of responsibility and authority for which high intelligence and such are desirable. If you're going to invest all that gold buffing the king, what about the minister of finance? The minister of justice? The field marshall? A general? colonel? A regional governor? Mayor? How do you handle this?
squidyak 02-24-08, 04:09 PM	In a normal dnd game the heads of state and all his advisers would have magic items pouring out of their wazoo. Every crown should give a +5 to intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. Heck, why not a +5 to all stats? Belts of strength and cloaks of charisma would be given out to great warriors, wizards would be given headbands of intellect, and so on. The massive wealth possessed by monarchs makes all of these purchases just common sense. It's another reason high level thieves simply wouldn't exist. Nobody could break through all the defenses a powerful noble could afford to put up. That's one big reason I run low-magic games.
Magrus 02-26-08, 01:57 PM	I think that might be overestimating the wealth of most rulers a bit. Having a hereditary crown for a king or queen that boosted Int, Wis, and/or Cha would be something I could see as plausible. However, all of the wealth they bring in isn't just theirs, its taxes in order to run their country. They have to pay for repairs on roads and the palace, guards, the servants, ministers, food, cooks, etc. Thats just in and around the palace. Dealing with training and upkeep and equipment for soldiers is ungodly costly. Paying the royal wizard and sage is expensive too. Royal blacksmith, as a master of his craft? That adds up too. I'd say Tomes and the like are straight out unless the king was someone equivalent to someone in real life, like Alexander the Great or something of that sort. Someone who expanded and consolidated the whole kingdom. Then again, tyrants who tax their people to death would be able to afford more. If your populace is a nation of slaves, what they produce, you take, and they have just enough to survive.
steenan 02-26-08, 05:04 PM	I think we may just base the available buffs on the money a ruler can spend on them. I assume the nobility and royalty is wealthy, having about as much money to spend on personal items as a PC one level higher. I also have my assumptions on the average level on different steps of the hierarchy. If they spend about half the money on stat buffs (similar to most spellcasting PCs I DMed for), we'll get: A city major or an important noble - level 6, 9k in stat buffs, probably two +2 items A metropolis major or a prince - level 10, 33k in stat buffs, probably two +4 items and maybe one +2 A typical king - level 14, 100k in stat buffs, probably +6 items for all mental stats A legendary emperor - level 19, 380k in stat buffs, so +6 items to all mental and a total of +9 inherent divided between them.
CrawlingChaos 02-26-08, 05:28 PM	I had never given much tought about this subject, but this is really interesting. I think that this kind of thing adds some flavor to that "monarch of Important Good Country". Reading this thread has made me consider cooking up a "let's steal the crown" :king: adventure. Awesome! Too bad 3/5 of the group is lawfull good. Well, it could still be a "hey, lets steal the crown from the evil King next door" adventure :). The massive wealth possessed by monarchs makes all of these purchases just common sense. It's another reason high level thieves simply wouldn't exist. Actually, when you think about it, those itens are a good reason for the existence of high level thieves in the first place. Otherwise, what would they steal? :D
squidyak 02-26-08, 07:40 PM	Actually, when you think about it, those itens are a good reason for the existence of high level thieves in the first place. Otherwise, what would they steal? :D If defenses for powerful nobles are run realistically by a dm, all the ranks in climb and move silently in the world won't do you any good.
squidyak 02-26-08, 07:56 PM	I think that might be overestimating the wealth of most rulers a bit. Having a hereditary crown for a king or queen that boosted Int, Wis, and/or Cha would be something I could see as plausible. However, all of the wealth they bring in isn't just theirs, its taxes in order to run their country. They have to pay for repairs on roads and the palace, guards, the servants, ministers, food, cooks, etc. Thats just in and around the palace. Dealing with training and upkeep and equipment for soldiers is ungodly costly. Paying the royal wizard and sage is expensive too. Royal blacksmith, as a master of his craft? That adds up too. I'd say Tomes and the like are straight out unless the king was someone equivalent to someone in real life, like Alexander the Great or something of that sort. Someone who expanded and consolidated the whole kingdom. Then again, tyrants who tax their people to death would be able to afford more. If your populace is a nation of slaves, what they produce, you take, and they have just enough to survive. I think you're underestimating the wealth of powerful monarchs. Lets use Waterdeep as an example. Waterdeep's population is about 300,000. By using the profession skill, you earn 1/2 your check in gp each week. Someone with no ranks in profession earns 5gp a week. A journeyman (4 ranks) would make 7gp per week, a master (probably averaging 10 ranks) would make about 10 gp per week. This ignores any bonuses for ability scores and skill focus. Lets assume 70% of the population is unskilled, 20% is about journeyman level, and 10% is master. The average person makes 5.9 gp per week, so lets call it 6gp. That's 1.8 million gp in revenue per week. 10% for taxes (very light taxes) equates to 180,000 gp per week in revenue. That's roughly 10 million gp in taxes every year. Just using 1% of those taxes for magical items allows for 100,000 gp per year. A +5 cloak of charisma for a general (25,000 gp) is a very small investment with the potential for a much bigger pay off.
JulesCARV 02-26-08, 09:53 PM	Someone with no ranks in profession earns 5gp a week. That's not how the profession skill is written. Using profession to earn check/2 gp per week is trained only. Untrained (i.e., with 0 ranks) earnings are 1 sp/day, or about 7 sp/week if you can find steady employment and don't take weekends.
squidyak 02-26-08, 10:36 PM	That's not how the profession skill is written. Using profession to earn check/2 gp per week is trained only. Untrained (i.e., with 0 ranks) earnings are 1 sp/day, or about 7 sp/week if you can find steady employment and don't take weekends. Ok, lets go with 1sp a day, though I consider it highly unlikely someone would have 0 ranks in the skill he uses to make a living. In that case the yearly tax revenue would be only 5 million gp per year. 1% of that would be 50,000 gp. If I stop skewing the funds far down and use more realistic numbers, the amounts go far up. The average commoner would have 4 ranks in his profession. That's the minimum number of skill points any 1st level character can have, and most people would put most of their skill points into their chosen profession. A journeyman in his profession would probably be 3rd level and have 6 ranks along with skill focus. A master would have 10 ranks and skill focus, probably also having at least a +1 ability modifier. A realistic tax rate would also probably be about 20%. The total tax revenue would quickly baloon to 25 million gold per year, with at least 250,000 going towards magic. In a realistic magical economy with those numbers you would not only see magical items for major government officials, you would also see continual light street lamps and other magic devices all over the city. The costs of these items seems high until you take into account that they are permanent.
JulesCARV 02-27-08, 04:33 PM	Another question is how much is invested in casting augury and/or divination before making state decisions. That 25 gp incense cost isn't too much, but it does add up over time. If they could find a level 7+ psion who knew "psionic divination" instead, that would save quite a bit of cash. A level 7 psion who manifested divination eight times a day when consulted for important decisions would be saving the government 200 gp in component costs every day. Or, if they could create, say, a "5 times per day divination" item, that would, over time, pay for itself, if psionics isn't available. I'm thinking about what would go into a super-crown type item -- int and wis boosts, maybe divination 3/day, +10 competence to sense motive... I consider it highly unlikely someone would have 0 ranks in the skill he uses to make a living. Fair enough, although it's not my fault you wrote "Someone with no ranks in profession earns 5gp a week." -- although technically, that statement could be true, since someone could well be untrained in any profession, but be trained in a craft skill in which she has a +0 modifier. (e.g., someone with 8 int and a single rank in craft (carpentry)) :)
tyrandor 02-27-08, 05:22 PM	I don't think they'd use Augury and Divination that often. In matter of the stat, everytime you make a decision, it pisses off someone and it makes other happy... if you're in tune enough with your people, you'll know who's going to get mad and who's going to get glad without the need for a spell to tell you. Especially if you're an intellect 26 king :P I can see it being used in time of war, to help with military decision and councils... but do you really need to use divination to figure out which road to repair first with the taxes for that year?
squidyak 02-27-08, 06:44 PM	Fair enough, although it's not my fault you wrote "Someone with no ranks in profession earns 5gp a week." -- although technically, that statement could be true, since someone could well be untrained in any profession, but be trained in a craft skill in which she has a +0 modifier. (e.g., someone with 8 int and a single rank in craft (carpentry)) :) True. I think my response came out more testy than I intended. In my original example, I intentionally skewed the money down. And I did specifically state no ranks. The huge amounts of money profession skills grant characters (especially in comparison with the small amounts hirelings receive) combined with the easy access to purchasable magic items causes a lot of problems I don't like dealing with in my games. Even the Forgotten Realms is far too magic light when the rules are taken into account.