Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radijs 09-29-07, 12:18 PM	I'm currently fleshing out my new campaign world which exists solely on a group of 'islands' suspended in mid-air. I'm trying to set up a few organisations & noble families that run the whole thing but frankly, I'm at a loss. I'll start by giving you a quick overview of the world: The geography is pretty simple so far. There is one island in the center which is surrounded by a group of 6 large islands varying in length from 1500 Km to 2500 KM These islands form more or less a ring around the center island. The center island is roughly spherical and has a diameter of roughly 2000 kilometers. Outside that ring of 6 there are 17 more islands The largest are a bit of 2000 km long and the smallest reach about 500 KM in length. The diameter of these islands varies but is on average about 500 KM Around these islands there is one last ring which actually orbits. Its made up of a mesh of tightly packed island-slivers each having a length of no more the 100 kilometers and only a tenth of that wide. Now the center island is also called the isle of the crown. Thats where the imperial palace stands and of course the emperor. His (or her) official title is God-Emperor. The sacred scrolls tell everyone that the emperor is the sun (or daughter) of Amon-Re and the emperor is guided by his divine will. There are also a lot of other palaces on the island owned by the more powerful families of the nobility. The 17 islands are home to the more wealthy part of the population. Powerful merchant groups that trade with each other and with the nobility. As well as artisans, artists & mages. And the ring outside that consists mostly of smaller peasant villages where farmers manage to scrape by just enough to survive. Now so far what I've got in my head for ideas is this: The empire taxes all her cititizens. Every businessman needs to give a percentage of every deal he makes to the empire. Artisans and artists need to pay the emperor a comission over every item they sell. Its expensive but not prohibitive to commerce. The people who suffer more are the peasants on the outer ring. In order to feed the many mouths of the empire most of their harvest is hauled away by the empire every season leaving them with just enough to get by until the next harvest. There are very few outside threats against this empire. There is the occasional uprising as a local lord decides that he can do better or the incidental surge in bandit activity. Travel & mobility: Travelling on an island is essentially free. Of course you'll have to pay for your food & lodging but there are no taxes or laws prohibiting travel. If you want to go from one island to another however it becomes difficult. There are airships that travel between the islands. Most of them are owned by the noble families. But there are also a few ships owned by wealthy merchant or more often merchant groups who use them to haul goods to the diffrent islands. Its possible to barter passage on these ships but often its expensive and the ships don't fly regulalry. An exception exists for the outer ring. The islands there are clumped together so tightly that its sometimes possible to span hanging bridges between them. These bridges are often temporary as the slivers of land can drift apart causing a bridge to collapse. The bridges are maintained by the locals so they have at least some people to trade with & to meet other then the ships from the empire. As for the organisation: I figured that the empire would of course be ruled by the emperor. But a nation this big he delegates most of these responsibilities to the noble families. Since the empire is in essence also a theocracy the influence of the diffrent religions, especially the temples of Amon-Re would be significant. Finally I can get to my question. How do I put this in organisational structure? And how much work do I need to put into this?
taradusis 09-29-07, 03:55 PM	Have each island be a theocracy devoted to a patron deity?Use the dmg (pg138?)to generate demographic breakdowns.A lot of background detail might not be required if the Pcs live on the fringes of society.What do the adventurers do for Adventure?
Radijs 09-29-07, 05:13 PM	There aren't a lot of adventurers. But most of them would be operating on the 17 isles or on the outer ring. The islands may seem small but there's plenty of room for anyone to start trouble.
GoriceXII 09-30-07, 04:25 AM	I tend to think of government in terms of what pcs might encounter, and then for my own amusement fill in other blanks. For instance for my own republic I went like this: Who do the pcs HEAR of that is running the country? What kind of local officials do they commonly run into? Who runs the military? Is it localized and called up when needed or is it a standing force, or combination thereof? If the pcs are either involved with a crime or helping solve one who do they deal with? If the pcs bring strange magical items or beasts into the area, who do they deal with? What role do temples/religions have in the country/community? (in your case the ties are probably very close--probably priests/priestesses might actually be members of government) What's the relationship between say a city or town and the country?
Dex 10-02-07, 03:14 AM	What exactly would the adventurers do? Are there dungeons? Do they spend all their time in political intrigues? Any invaders, unrest within the borders that needs quelling? I'd organize it like this: God-Emperor High Priests and interpreters of His will (church). Nobles of the Inner Islands (Greater Nobles) (1 per island for each of the six islands) Lesser Nobles, one per island for each of the 17 smaller islands, and each are beholden to one of the Nobles of the Inner Islands. They may change allegiances, which is where some political tension comes into play. Landholders owning tracts of land in the outer ring, and the 17 outer islands. Ordinary people, living on the land of Landholders or Nobles of various islands. The landholders channel the taxes from the ordinary people to the lesser nobles, who take their cut, and pass on what's left to the Greater nobles. They take another cut of the taxes, and pass on what's left to the church(es), most specifically that of Amon-Re. Responsibility also flows along this path, so an uprising on one of the 17 outer islands will be crushed by either the lesser noble who owns it, or the Greater noble who sponsors the lesser one. So another lesser island won't send troops unless a greater noble is in charge of both of them, so to speak.
Radijs 10-02-07, 02:42 PM	Thats a nice organisation. And it allows for quite a few subtle and not so subtle dirty tricks to make it look bad for other noblemen.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 04:23 AM	I think it looks okay. A little hard to maintain, sociologically, but this is fantasy. Essentialyl, it depends on whether you want to make it an empire (strong central government, weak regional nobility, strong court one) or a feudal state (weak central government, little or no court nobility, very strong regional one). Here are a few ideas: - have a way to transfer information - meaning probably people - quite quickly. A large country can only have a centralized government if the center can actually get/send news quickly - and without at least some centralization, there won't be an empire. Looking at what we have so far, this would probably be in the hands of the priesthood - in fact, it would be a mix of priesthood and an administration, possibly even with a tinge of a bureaucratical machine. A little like the mandarins of China. Priests or no, someone should be able to get to everywhere in the empire quickly and efficiently. Otherwise, the fringes of the empire would be nearly ungovernable (then again, declining/weakened empires attract villains and adventureres like a corpse attracts buzzards). One way or another, the emperor's authority will probably be notably weaker in the fringes than in the capital - the problem is just how much weaker it will be. - have the priesthood be involved - openly or not - in the politics of the outer isles. There should be something other than custom keeping the nobles from splintering away from the country. If you want to make it a little more complex, have there be two kinds of nobility - a "secular" one of warlords, (few) ennobled commoners (great architects) and a "religious" one of important families with strong positions in religion (i.e. families that have had several high priests in their line and who might have a lot of political clout). If, on the other hand, you do not want the priests to be a powerful political group - or at least not an organized one - you might want to consider a practice in which children from any background can enter the group, again like China's mandarins. Even then, there will probably be groups, probably families, which hold a strong degree of political influence in the religious authority. - Have some nobles have specific titles - similar to the ministries in today's politics - that give them responsibility over certain affairs, such as raising the army/fleet, procurement and supplies, etc - everything from taxation to espionage. Given the current setting, at least some of these would fall to members of the priesthood - but this would make them in practice and theory nobles. Ideally, whoever these people are, they should be in the court of the emperor or in other ways related to the royal family. Giving such power to the more distant nobles or to people with little ties to the God-emperor means a weak central authority. - At the moment it sounds like the priesthood will be the actual mover of the empire. Therefore, it is likely that the goals of its leaders and the goals of the emperor don't always agree - and it is likely that in such political maneuvering, the priests have a stronger position than most of the common folk think. To most of the priesthood, of course, the will of the emperor is law, and even the high priests will probably obey most commands without fail. A way to strengthen the position of the emperor is to let him be the high priest by virtue of their position, in which case you need to make sure what is his position regarding the other religious leaders.
Radijs 10-03-07, 05:50 AM	I think it looks okay. A little hard to maintain, sociologically, but this is fantasy. Essentialyl, it depends on whether you want to make it an empire (strong central government, weak regional nobility, strong court one) or a feudal state (weak central government, little or no court nobility, very strong regional one). Here are a few ideas: - have a way to transfer information - meaning probably people - quite quickly. A large country can only have a centralized government if the center can actually get/send news quickly - and without at least some centralization, there won't be an empire. Looking at what we have so far, this would probably be in the hands of the priesthood - in fact, it would be a mix of priesthood and an administration, possibly even with a tinge of a bureaucratical machine. A little like the mandarins of China. Priests or no, someone should be able to get to everywhere in the empire quickly and efficiently. Otherwise, the fringes of the empire would be nearly ungovernable (then again, declining/weakened empires attract villains and adventureres like a corpse attracts buzzards). One way or another, the emperor's authority will probably be notably weaker in the fringes than in the capital - the problem is just how much weaker it will be. Well the cheapest way to communicate is with carrier pigeons. Or by paying the magical guilds for magical communication. Quick transportation is expensive. You have to either get one of the flying ships or pay money for a teleport. So yeah the influence of the emperor will be significantly less on the outer rings leaving room for adventurers to do their thing. - have the priesthood be involved - openly or not - in the politics of the outer isles. There should be something other than custom keeping the nobles from splintering away from the country. If you want to make it a little more complex, have there be two kinds of nobility - a "secular" one of warlords, (few) ennobled commoners (great architects) and a "religious" one of important families with strong positions in religion (i.e. families that have had several high priests in their line and who might have a lot of political clout). If, on the other hand, you do not want the priests to be a powerful political group - or at least not an organized one - you might want to consider a practice in which children from any background can enter the group, again like China's mandarins. Even then, there will probably be groups, probably families, which hold a strong degree of political influence in the religious authority. Since the emperor is called a god-emperor this all falls under a serious theocracy. What I thought would be nice is that the emperor redivides the lands and titles every X years. His divine words are "interpreted" by the high clergy. I was thinking that the noble families would try to get members of their family into the church so they can influence their decisions. And on the other side I was thinking of introducing a few millitant sects of the church charged with enforcing the will of the god. A bit of a crusade group who goes around looking for heresy. - Have some nobles have specific titles - similar to the ministries in today's politics - that give them responsibility over certain affairs, such as raising the army/fleet, procurement and supplies, etc - everything from taxation to espionage. Given the current setting, at least some of these would fall to members of the priesthood - but this would make them in practice and theory nobles. Ideally, whoever these people are, they should be in the court of the emperor or in other ways related to the royal family. Giving such power to the more distant nobles or to people with little ties to the God-emperor means a weak central authority. Good idea. I already thought of some titles. - At the moment it sounds like the priesthood will be the actual mover of the empire. Therefore, it is likely that the goals of its leaders and the goals of the emperor don't always agree - and it is likely that in such political maneuvering, the priests have a stronger position than most of the common folk think. To most of the priesthood, of course, the will of the emperor is law, and even the high priests will probably obey most commands without fail. A way to strengthen the position of the emperor is to let him be the high priest by virtue of their position, in which case you need to make sure what is his position regarding the other religious leaders. The general idea I had for the empire & the nobility is that its become a bit decadent over the years. With virtually no real threats to the empire its leaders have become selfish. Caring more for their own extravagant living style then actually caring for the empire. Its part of a larger plot that will slowly collapse the empire. partially due to this and partially due to infiltration from Tsochar agents. What it looks like at the moment: At the top there's the god-emperor. His word is like the word of a god. Any commands he gives must be obeyed without question. Upon his death his direct descendant will take the throne. The Primate Principio (Means: Foremost of the high clergy) is a group of six high priests who interpret the will of the gods and once every three years they divide the empire amongst the six noble families. The six families rule the inner islands without imputy. By divine mandate they are obliged to keep standing armies on their islands and a fleet in case there would be war. The six islands are: Arcadia, Anubria, Austrina, Esparcta, Galifrey & Genanthea. Every three years several nobles in these six families are awarded these titles along with their privileges and their responsibilities: Grand marshal of the skypledged - Supreme commander of the imperial navy. Responsible for maintaining the fleet. Pro's: The ships of the imperial navy are the fastest and biggest in the empire and as long as there's peace the Grand marshal has the freedom to use these ships for his own gain. Con's: The grand marshal has to pay to maintain the fleet making it very costly if there is an insurgency. Grand marshal of the shining sun - Supreme commander of the Imperial army. Responsible for maintaining the armed forces Pro's: The imperial army has bases & outposts on almost every island. All these bases are linked with a magical communication system. Quick & cheap communication throughout the empire. Con's: Maitenance and combat costs come out of your pocket. Grand govenor of the provinces - There's four of these. They are the tax gatherers. Each governor has the privilige of taxing all commercial transactions of four or five of the seventeen islands. Pro's: If its a good term you can skim a little off the top and fill your coffers quite well. Con's: You're responsible that the taxes are gathered. Along with the logisitcal nightmare that comes with it. Steersman of the barque of the heavens - Again 4 of these. No less by divine law. Responsible for taxing the farmers themselves and insuring the flow of grain to the rest of the empire. Pro's: Grain can be far more valuable then any amount of gold. Especially if it stops coming. Con's: It takes a large infrastructure to collect all the grain. The divine law placing the gathering of the grain in 4 diffrent hands is to avoid any family holding the empire hostage by cutting off the grain supply. The Deacon of arts - A bit of a watchdog. Supposed to keep an eye on the practisers of the arcane arts to make sure they don't do anything sacreligious. Pro's: Supreme authority over the magical guilds. The guilds will go to great lengths to keep you as their friend. Con's: A large amount of rivalry between the guilds makes it hard to keep a good eye on them. And failure on this position is usually very painful. These people will have to find their own way to fulfill their tasks. This usually means dealing with the dukes of the 17 isles and the land owners in the ring. The clergy are woven into the very fabric of this structure even though there are no offical positions they hold in the hierarchy. Almost every important event is accompanied by a religious ceremony or augury of some kind. An augury bearing an ill omen can mean that a ship will stay in dock for another month or that a large transaction is cancelled. Thats all I can thinkg off at the moment. More to follow.
yellowdingo 10-03-07, 06:53 AM	Coined by Aristotle: Aristocracy describes a government ruled by the best men. So regional governors or councils made up of the highest ranking classes.
The_Shaman 10-03-07, 09:14 AM	Well the cheapest way to communicate is with carrier pigeons. Or by paying the magical guilds for magical communication. Quick transportation is expensive. You have to either get one of the flying ships or pay money for a teleport. So yeah the influence of the emperor will be significantly less on the outer rings leaving room for adventurers to do their thing. For me, the most important part is that the state can send messages - and especially people (the agents of the Emperor) anywhere fast and reliably under any circumstances. In this case, I think there would most likely be a "guild" that is heavily sponsored or outright owned by the state and used in such cases: it would be more more focused and easier to use in emergencies (i.e. when it is needed the most). This would be somewhat expensive, but given that the empire is spread across an entire archipelago, it might be worth it. Since the emperor is called a god-emperor this all falls under a serious theocracy. What I thought would be nice is that the emperor redivides the lands and titles every X years. His divine words are "interpreted" by the high clergy. If this is to work in practice, this shows a very strong degree of control by the emperor. If the aristocracy is getting strong and beginning to rival the center, this practice might exist in theory but be invoked only very rarely and/or against minor lords.
Radijs 10-03-07, 09:36 AM	In theory the empire can send anyone anywhere, especially from the central island in the blink of an eye. And if there is a real disaster it would be done. In day to day affairs the empire or family would most likely turn to the wayfarers guide one of the most prominent magical guilds if they are in a hurry. Otherwise they would likely send carrier pigeons for messages and send officals by airship. The emperor used to have a great deal of control and he probably has if he decides to excersise that amount of control. He's not going to do that very quickly. Its very likely that it will upset a great many of people and even if the nobles don't send assasins (Radical I know) they can undermine the empire if they work together. In practicality you'll need four families working closely together and then you can starve out the emperor. Provided the imperial navy and legion don't pee on your thunder.
Old_School_Overlord 10-04-07, 12:07 PM	It seems very odd to me that the positions of Grand marshal of the skypledged and Grand marshal of the shining sun don't come with any right to raise taxes outside you own lands to support the emperors forces. The natural consequence would be that the Imperial forces would quickly dwindle to nothing, since no noble would be willing to spend money equiping troops that within a few years will be passed to a rival. The cost of running an army/navy is maintaining, raising and equipping it: not in combat. Those 500,000 soldiers & sailors still need paying and feeding whether their fightning or not- If there is an Imperial military, I don't see why the Emperor would not keep himself in direct command of it. Who does the Army protect against? Is it purely for controling the Nobles or is their an external threat also?
Radijs 10-13-07, 05:59 AM	I've thought about it and I overlooked something completely regarding the army & navy. Taxes are being levied by the empire. The families managing the army will be given a stipend to maintain the army. And my housemate gave me another good tip. During peacetime the army will be used as a police force to maintain law and order. Local management falls to the local lords and the fines will go to the imperial coffers. The navy can be used to deal with smugglers. Any cargo seized will be defaulted towards the empire. And since the families will be currying for the emperor's favor most of the time there's going to be a law. In short it will mean that the noble families won't be allowed to fight amongst each other. This will give rise to a whole secret war where mercenaries and adventurers are employed to strike out at other families or to thwart the efforts of other families.