Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KeyThief 06-15-07, 01:38 AM	Howdy- So my PC's in Eberron have found a disabled juggernaught... its a four wheeled non-sentient construct made entirely of mithril (70%) and steel(30%). From wheel to wheel its 40 feet wide and 60 feet long from the back end to the massive subterranean bore that makes up the front of the machine. Its 20 feet tall. The insides of the construct are tightly packed steel/mithril pipes, tubing and gadgetry with no empty cavities. So my question is: how much would this thing weigh? It may seem absurd to know this, but its actually a crucial part of my plot. 20 tons? 100 tons? I understand mithril is super light, so I'm really having a hard time making the slightest guess.
valinorbob 06-15-07, 02:19 PM	60 x 40 x 20 feet OR 720 x 480 x 240 = 82944000 in^3 - 20% = 66355200 in^3 // to account for not being a completely solid block of metal // 30% steel 19906560 in^3 x 0.2835 lbs/in^3 = 5643509.76 lbs or 2821.75 tons // 70% mithral which weighs half as much as steel 46448640 in^3 x 0.14175 lbs/in^3 = 6584094.72 lbs or 3292.05 tons Grand total = 6113.8 tons
Phantos 06-15-07, 03:24 PM	Holy crap!
Araes 06-15-07, 05:52 PM	Well, to be fair that's an insanely huge hunk of nearly solid metal. 60 ft. is longer than most semi-trucks, and 40 ft. is the length of most trailers. The worth in metal of that creation would be staggering, considering the rarity and price of mithril alone.
KeyThief 06-15-07, 05:59 PM	You raise a good question: how much would this thing cost as scrap?! :confused: (in Eberron)
valinorbob 06-15-07, 06:16 PM	Well, the DMG lists the price of a mithral shirt as 1100 gp which would weigh 12.5 lbs. From that we can get a rough cost of 80 gp/lb for worked mithral. Thus, the 3292.05 tons of mithral becomes 526,728,000 gp, after which the cost of the steel becomes mostly irrelevant.
Evil DM Mk3 06-15-07, 06:21 PM	Probably want to halve or quater that though as they are going to be paying scrap rate not worked rate on it. Still a small mountian of gold, litteraly a mountain, or a hillock at any rate.
valinorbob 06-15-07, 06:24 PM	Well, I belive the original cost of the body would be worked mithral, like a golem. Selling it would be worth half that at most.
KeyThief 06-15-07, 06:51 PM	Well then! I see this is another one of those things that I'm going to have to nerf the living Bejebus out of to make it work properly. We cant be having level 6 adventurers running around with 500 million GP... thats just crazy. ;)
MattLangley 06-15-07, 07:26 PM	*activates his anti-nerf shield*
Evil DM Mk3 06-16-07, 02:57 AM	Just give it death throwes, dies and goes BOOM! Try finding most of it then!
Alltat 06-16-07, 04:13 AM	Just give it death throwes, dies and goes BOOM! Try finding most of it then! Wouldn't that just make the pieces easier to carry? The main problem with selling it as scrap right now is that the thing weighs six thousand tonnes!
Evil DM Mk3 06-16-07, 11:23 AM	A big enough BOOM and most of it will be impossible to find because it will be too small.
User5127 06-16-07, 11:42 AM	well, if it can't be dismantled they'd have to sell it as a whole. IE: where can you find some one with 500 million just sitting there willing to spend it on a huge hunk of mithril. or two: death throws: when the juggernaught dies it's body creates a small explosion and vaccum. the explosion and resulting vacum suck the entire body to the astral plane where it would be lost forever. cheezy I know. But you wanted to nerf it. so yea.
Alltat 06-16-07, 02:16 PM	Or just make it useful. I would assume it's there for a reason. Either way, depending on where they found it it's probably either on someone else's land - in which they can't really sell it unless they can move it - or too far away from anyone willing to buy it for them to be interested in something that hard to transport. All of this assuming they get the idea to sell it for scrap in the first place.
bigsnarf 06-16-07, 02:26 PM	I remember in a book or dragon magazine that when a construct is destroyed that its materials that it is made of become useless.:D It was explained that the body corrodes not long after and its just a pile of junk that is left.Does that help?:confused:
deanruel 06-16-07, 02:43 PM	13,168,200 would be the theoretical "value" for something like that. Worked Mithral price multiplied by the volume then quartered for being completely unworked then divided by ten to account for resale, wholesale, and the fact that no one would really want one. So in essence this thing is worth BOALOADS of money which is really exciting for the first few minutes until you realize that there are a lot of problems with this 1) Almost no one has that kind of gold and anyone who does have that kind of gold has the money to get your party "taken care of" for a lot less than that stupidly high amount. 2) Gold in excess of perhaps 50,000 is essentially worthless. No one is going to haul a metric ton of gold around and hand it to anybody for anything. That's just silly. Additionally at around that amount you can start creating infinite money with enough smart investments and rule lawyering. 3) The thing weighs more than you will likely ever be able to move ever. Even with wheels this thing is about 5999 tons heavier than anything that medieval society's were able to cart around. I mean this thing is really the definition of useless when you think about it. Thusly with those points being realized you can honestly let your players have it. Let them look at it, let them fantasize about it, let them realize it's complete uselessness and eventually leave it for the next sap to find like some sort of giant metal Michigan J. Frog. No harm in it.
turalisj 06-17-07, 04:09 AM	Gold worth? You could pay all of the Dragonmarked houses to work together, and have enough army to raise a navy of airships. I think that would be about the gold... Oh, and enough left over to visit every brothel in khorvaire several times over :P
Alltat 06-17-07, 03:47 PM	I guess the ridiculous sum that this thing is worth as scrap raises the question of who could afford to build the thing in the first place? While the pipes and plating probably don't cost anywhere near what chainmail costs to make, it'd still cost significantly more than it's scrap worth. Who built this thing, and how could they afford it?
Evil DM Mk3 06-17-07, 04:59 PM	Here is an idea. Value equal to plot. Say an area is being over-run by evil bandits of some very scary nature. There jsut happens to be enough gold to build and man a set of high quality fortifications that allow for the PCs to gain their reward another way ("You see him? That is Sir Richard of the Dragonspine keeps, no really it is! You hear that story about the giant raids?") and allows for plot hooking in the future. And other simmilar ideas.
KeyThief 06-18-07, 01:46 AM	Who built this thing, and how could they afford it? As I mentioned earlier, this campaign is in Eberron... Basically the PC's stumble upon a plot hatched by a mysterious hobgoblin artificer who has knowledge of a secret weapon created in Droam during the final years of the Last War. Seeing no chance for ultimate victory, the hag sisters of Droam drain all their remaining resources to create a massive juggernaut. The mithril construct is a four wheeled machine with a giant drill covering the front end. Within the construct is a device powered by a rare blue dragonshard. The device emits enormous bursts of electricity (chain lightning) to any living thing within 30 feet of the juggernaut. The device also has the ability to channel all of its power into an "energy loop" which eventually explodes in a massive antimagic blast, affecting everything within an incredible one mile radius. The plan: send the juggernaut from Droam along the bottom of Silver Lake in Breland, then start drilling deep under Drum Keep on its eastern shore, through the BlackCaps and emerging behind the battle lines in Aundair, going strait to Arcanix. The construct was then to wreck the small town beneath the floating towers of Arcanix and detonate. The antimagic blast would dispel the powerful magic enchantments holding the towers aloft and send them crashing down on the hapless surviving commoners. Agents of Droam would focus the blame for the atrocity on Breland and the war would take a dramatic turn. Of course none of this happened. The juggernaut vanished, the war ended, and no one had any idea of the sinister plot... Until the wise and twisted hobgoblin artificer managed to pinpoint the artifacts location. Through numerous plot turns and adventure hooks, the PC's manage to track down the bad guys. After a couple serious hack-and-slash sessions, they secure the weapon as well as some other projects undertaken by the evil artificer. I cant really get into detail (as my PC's are reading this), but the juggernaut was found with heavily corroded rear panels exposing massive interior damage. However, the weapon appeared to be mostly repaired and in near working order with the hobgoblin artificer ready to insert the final component... when he met his untimely doom at the hands of the party. :( The trail of the juggernaut deep within the BlackCaps is sealed by a magic wall of stone and a specially sealed door with graffiti warning the agents of the artificer (lots of goblin miners and artificers) that there is nothing but death beyond. The PC's never opened the seal or explored the path of the juggernaut, so they still don't know what stopped it. Currently they are returning to their base of operations in Cragwar, pondering their next move. They blew up the cave leading down to the makeshift workshop/cavern around the juggernaut. There are alot of other story lines that required them to leave it for the time being. Thats where the juggernaut came from. The characters started at level 3 are just made it to 7. They are a warforged artificer, a Jurasco halfling cleric/bard complete with a feisty clawfoot, a dwarven wizard/fighter and a human female fighter rogue who unfortunately met her demise in the final battle... (rerolling as a Drow war blade, I believe)
Drayson6 06-23-07, 11:41 AM	60 x 40 x 20 feet OR 720 x 480 x 240 = 82944000 in^3 - 20% = 66355200 in^3 // to account for not being a completely solid block of metal // 30% steel 19906560 in^3 x 0.2835 lbs/in^3 = 5643509.76 lbs or 2821.75 tons // 70% mithral which weighs half as much as steel 46448640 in^3 x 0.14175 lbs/in^3 = 6584094.72 lbs or 3292.05 tons Grand total = 6113.8 tons Please tell me you're kidding? Is it even like possible for anything that heavy to even move?
Ashen_Child 06-23-07, 10:51 PM	Even though it has "no empty spaces" the very fact that is has pipes in it suggests otherwise. For a machine to function practically, i'd have assumed that at only about half of the interior was actually metal; although it's packed with mechanical "stuff" there'd be a fair bit space to allow for insulation, movement, fule, etc. After all, without ANY space, how could you account for different parts at all? All those tiny little spaces between the components really add up. Not that that helps any since you've still got something worth a Bajillion gold.
Alltat 06-24-07, 08:12 AM	Taking into account the empty space inside and around pipes, along with all the empty space that's needed to allow moving parts to actually move (meaning they need somewhere to move to), the 20% figure should be closer to 50%. It'll still weigh ~4000 tonnes though. A modern freight train can weigh around 5000 tonnes at full capacity, so a 4kT 'vehicle' in a fantasy setting is not entirely unthinkable. It would be horrendously slow and inefficient, but it's not completely unreasonable, especially not if you give it some tracks to move on. The scrap value of the thing isn't really that relevant, as the players would need to find someone who needs that much scrap metal and who has the gold to pay for it, neither of which is very likely.