Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EffigyOfFaith 03-13-07, 03:36 PM	There has been a lot of talk on the boards recently about paring down the list of intelligent “monsters” to something more reasonable for world building. I think that this makes a lot of sense when trying to construct a more believable world; especially with out the need to include everything since, often, your world will not be for publication. Therefore I am listing the intelligent non-extraplanar monsters from the SRD. and begin discussing their role in a world building sense. For my purposes intelligent means above 4 or 5 though I’m going to be flexible on this. I will later discuss my exploration through which ones to keep and which ones to pass over. My discussion on roles this is mostly for my campaign, but I thought other might be interested. I would also like to draw on my biology background and make some purly editorial comments about my imaging on the ecology of these monsters, entirely for my entertainment. Aboleth (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11762569&postcount=7): Mind controlling aquatic aberration of evil geniuses-ness. Int 15 Aranea (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11762586&postcount=8): Shape-changing spider-dude with spells. Int 14 Athach: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11773546&postcount=14) Three armed trinket collecting smasher of things. Int 7 Behir (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11777187&postcount=17): Lighting flavored centipede-dragon. Int 7 X Blink Dog: the name says it all.. Good-two-shoes and hard to catch. Int 10 ? Bugbear (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11777170&postcount=16): Medium sized gobblin with a wet nose. Int 10 Centaur (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11777241&postcount=19): Everyone’s favorite man-horse, excuse me person horse. Int 8 X Chuul: Lober-guy. Int 10 X Cloaker: It’s a cloak. No it’s a really creapy evil genius. Int 14 ?Couatl (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11790252&postcount=22): Rainbow winged snake of Deux ex machnia. Int 17 Delver (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11822829&postcount=27): really big rock-eating blob. Int 14 X Derro: evil dwarf. Int 10 X Destrachan: Sonic-blasting lizard thing. Int 12 X Doppelganger: Int 13 Dragons, true: Int 6 wyrmling white – 32 greatwyrm gold. Dragon Turtle. Big steam breathing turtle. Int 12 Dragonne: Shinny lion dragon with wings. Int 6 Drider: Spider-drow. Int 15 Dryad: pretty tree girl. Int 14 Dwarf: Int 10 Deugar Evil Dwarf. Int 10 Eagle, giant: We all read the hobbit Int 10 Elf: “I’m the best” Int 10 Drow: Int 12 Ethereal Filcher: Int 7 Ethereal Marauder: Int 7 Ettercap: Bug-eyed monster. Int 6 Ettim: Two headed giant. Int 6 Gargoyle: You remember the cartoon. Int 6 Janni: wimpy genni of the prime-material. Int 14 Giants: Int 6- 16 Gnoll: Hyena person. Cue annoying laugh. Int 8 Gnome & Svirfneblin: Int 10 Goblin: Int 10 Grimlock: blind smasher: Int 10 Hags: Evil female villains. Int 10-13 Halfling: Int 10 Harpy: Evil winged humanoid. Int 7 Hobgoblin: medium sized lawful goblin. Int 10 Koblod: “oh I wish I were a dragon.” Int 10 Kraken: “Nemo it’s time to die.” Int 21 Krenshar: Scary bone-head cat. Int 6 Lamia: evil lion centaur thing. Int 13 Lammasu: nice lion eagle person. Int 16 Lizardfolk: Int 9 Locathah: Int 13 Lycanthropes: Int 10 Manticore: scorpion, lion person bat thing. Int 7 Medusa: Scaly snake haired person. Int 12 Merfolk: Int 10 Mimic: Int 10 Minotaur: Int 7 Dark Naga: evil snake person. Int 16 Guardian Naga: good snake person. Int 16 Spirit Naga: evil snake person. Int 12 Water Naga: neutral snake person. Int 10 Nymph: “look at me. I’m the prettiest.” Int 16 Ogre: Int 6 Ogre Mage: Int 14 Orc: Int 8 Owl, Giant: They’ve got giant eagles, why not. Int 10 Pegasus: Int 10 Phasm: The ultimate shape changer. Int 16 Pseudodragon: Cute little dragon thing. Int 10 Rakshasa: tiger person. Int 13 Roper: dungeon decoration. Int 12 Shuagin: “sea devil” Int 14 Satyr: elf/goat Int 12 Shambling Mound: Int 7 Skum: aquatic minion. Int 7 Androsphinx: Int 16 Criosphinx: Int 10 Gynosphinx: Int 18 Heirasphinx: Int 6 Grig: cricket person. Int 10 Nixie: water fey. Int 12 Pixie: “I’m the green fairy.” Int 16 Treant: “Baroom-Huummm-RuuuummmmmbaRuuum. Int 12 Triton: Good-aquatic. Int 13 Troglodyte: bad aquatic. Int 8 Troll: Int 6 Unicorn: Int 10 Will-o’-Wisp: Trust me it’s not a torch. Int 15 Winter Wolf: Int 9 Worg: Int 6 Wyvern: Int 6 Yrthak: because no one is immune to sonic. Int 7
Yakman 03-13-07, 05:11 PM	My thoughts on each: Aboleth: Mind controlling aquatic aberration of evil geniuses-ness. Int 15 Pretty cool. Of course, since they lurk in subterranean lakes, I don't really see how the party would go after them. You could certainly do a Call of Cthulu sort of adventure with them, but overall... kind meh Aranea: Shape-changing spider-dude with spells. Int 14 Cool for a jungle campaign. Very dispensable. Athach: Three armed trinket collecting smasher of things. Int 7 stupid. just an ogre with three arms. drop them, or use them in a one shot as an experiment gone wrong. certainly not a race. Behir: Lighting flavored centipede-dragon. Int 7 do they have to be this smart? good monster, don't think the stat is justified. Blink Dog: the name says it all.. Good-two-shoes and hard to catch. Int 10oh a magic puppy! lame Bugbear: Medium sized gobblin with a wet nose. Int 10 it's just a big orc. lame. Centaur: Everyone’s favorite man-horse, excuse me person horse. Int 8 eh. I could live without 'em. Chuul: Lober-guy. Int 10 Cloaker: It’s a cloak. No it’s a really creapy evil genius. Int 14 No, it's really stupid. Drop it. Couatl: Rainbow winged snake of Deux ex machnia. Int 17 Good in Eberron. Needs to be spiced up though. Delver: really big rock-eating blob. Int 14 Derro: evil dwarf. Int 10 why can't we just make regular dwarves evil? Destrachan: Sonic-blasting lizard thing. Int 12 good for a one off. not much more than that. Doppelganger: Int 13 always hated them, always will. Dragons, true: Int 6 wyrmling white – 32 greatwyrm gold. ditto. Dragon Turtle. Big steam breathing turtle. Int 12 how would you fight it, really? Dragonne: Shinny lion dragon with wings. Int 6 stupid Drider: Spider-drow. Int 15 interesting. just drop the drow bit and let them go on their own. also, they shouldn't be that smart. Dryad: pretty tree girl. Int 14interesting. Dwarf: Int 10great. Deugar Evil Dwarf. Int 10eh. not a big fan of psionics, and that's what these guys are, ultimately. Eagle, giant: We all read the hobbit Int 10and it's still pretty cool. Elf: “I’m the best” Int 10ah! die! Drow: Int 12ah! die! Ethereal Filcher: Int 7 Ethereal Marauder: Int 7lame. Ettercap: Bug-eyed monster. Int 6kinda scary. good for jungle fighting. Ettim: Two headed giant. Int 6one off monster. good for an experiment gone wrong and not much more. Gargoyle: You remember the cartoon. Int 6great cartoon. there's potential for villainy here. Janni: wimpy genni of the prime-material. Int 14 Okay. Giants: Int 6- 16Nothing better than a giant fight. Gnoll: Hyena person. Cue annoying laugh. Int 8the best, by far, evil humanoid for mass slaying (EHMS). definite keeper. Gnome & Svirfneblin: Int 10lame. Goblin: Int 10eh. I prefer kobolds. easier to kick. Grimlock: blind smasher: Int 10 stupid, stupid, stupid Hags: Evil female villains. Int 10-13 I could live without them. Halfling: Int 10 who wants to be frodo? honestly... Harpy: Evil winged humanoid. Int 7 Potential. just have to be played around with a bit. Hobgoblin: medium sized lawful goblin. Int 10 and why not just use the gnoll? or the orc? they are all interchangeable. Koblod: “oh I wish I were a dragon.” Int 10 great. keeper. Kraken: “Nemo it’s time to die.” Int 21 again, how would you fight it? good in theory, bad in practice--until it rises! Krenshar: Scary bone-head cat. Int 6 scary is good... don't really see intelligent here though... Lamia: evil lion centaur thing. Int 13 not really cool. Lammasu: nice lion eagle person. Int 16 still dumb after all these years... Lizardfolk: Int 9 meh. A bit too much like land of the lost. Locathah: Int 13 I don't enjoy underwater campaigns, and if you think about it, aquatic races would ruin things like surface ships. Get rid of all of them. Lycanthropes: Int 10 Great. Definite keeper. Manticore: scorpion, lion person bat thing. Int 7 solid monster. Medusa: Scaly snake haired person. Int 12 ditto. Merfolk: Int 10 don't like. Mimic: Int 10 great monster. Minotaur: Int 7 a keeper. need a larger role though. Dark Naga: evil snake person. Int 16 Guardian Naga: good snake person. Int 16 Spirit Naga: evil snake person. Int 12 Water Naga: neutral snake person. Int 10 why do we need different races? pick one, and then go with it. Nymph: “look at me. I’m the prettiest.” Int 16 Keeper, just because of the hot picture in the Monstrous Compendium... they could kill you back then too. Ogre: Int 6 Ogre Mage: Int 14 great monsters. Orc: Int 8 drop them. use gnolls instead. Owl, Giant: They’ve got giant eagles, why not. Int 10 I'll bite. Pegasus: Int 10 Phasm: The ultimate shape changer. Int 16 the suck Pseudodragon: Cute little dragon thing. Int 10 Rakshasa: tiger person. Int 13 I like... Roper: dungeon decoration. Int 12 I'm on the fence... Shuagin: “sea devil” Int 14 die santa claus! die! Satyr: elf/goat Int 12 make 'em hyper chaotic, and some of 'em twisted. Shambling Mound: Int 7 love it. Skum: aquatic minion. Int 7 crap. except for when you bust up the cthulu-cult and they come pouring out of the swamp/surf. Androsphinx: Int 16 Criosphinx: Int 10 Gynosphinx: Int 18 Heirasphinx: Int 6 I like A and G. The others are teh suck. Grig: cricket person. Int 10 Nixie: water fey. Int 12 Pixie: “I’m the green fairy.” Int 16 shouldn't they have been held off until MM7? Treant: “Baroom-Huummm-RuuuummmmmbaRuuum. Int 12 cool. Triton: Good-aquatic. Int 13 Troglodyte: bad aquatic. Int 8 ah! Troll: Int 6 awesome. level them for some uber-coolness. Unicorn: Int 10 Will-o’-Wisp: Trust me it’s not a torch. Int 15 Winter Wolf: Int 9 Worg: Int 6 Wyvern: Int 6 I like them all. Unicorns should be special though. Yrthak: because no one is immune to sonic. Int 7 or bad monster design.
Return of the Flumph 03-14-07, 01:25 AM	All of the above have their places and can be used well...just not neccesarily in the same campaign setting.
imake13 03-14-07, 01:51 AM	drop orcs? are you serious?
bartleby42 03-14-07, 02:24 AM	drop orcs? are you serious? I am. They are only int 8. There is no reason they haven't been wiped off the face of the earth, based on every peice of fluff as to the war like tendencies of orcs. Don't belive me? Village -- "Oh no! We have been attacked by orcs! Call up the miltia!" Miltia -- "We have diven back the orcs, why don't we go to their homes because they are chaotic and stupid so they probally don't have many defences (seeing as all the fighters went off to raid the village, the ones left behind wouldn't follow orders because they can get loot and are too dim to realize that it might be a problem to leave their town ungaurded) Orcs -- "Oh no! We have been completely wiped out, maybe some nice palidins won't kill us all so we can do the same thing again in a few generations!" Militia -- "Sorry we don't have a very strong moral ethos, and what kinda of survival stratagy is hoping for piety from your enemies?" Orcs -- "Too bad all the fluff says we don't breed like crazy like gobbos or kobolds, otherwise we might still make sense." Really what role do Orcs fill that Hobgoblins don't fill better? Sure the name change is a little wacky, but the upped int and the lawful alingment means those green folks outside of town aren't just mindless mauraders that should have been wiped from the face of the earth long ago, but smart enemies that you can treat with and more than likely is recognized as a "peaceful race". Okay, they are warlike but so are dwarves. They are as smart as humans and will realize that the best way to not live in dirt is have money. The best way to get money isn't to steal it but to get it for something you wanted to do anyway. So hobs would become mercenaries. And the first nation to give amnesty to all Hobs once they join the military will rule the world. A bunch of dedicated fighters who are commonly considered "low class" due to thier reletives the goblins given equal status and a particular someone to kill. Any lawful evil race of average intellegence would think that it was in heaven That and it makes more sense to have goblins ---> Hobgoblins ----> Bugbears as opposed to tacking on Orcs and Orags and all the other wacky jazz that shouldn't be. Other than that I can see how all of the races in the list could exist on one world, now some of them are bound to be extinct (cough*orcs*cough) but all of them could have a place in one world. Remember a good chunk of "intellegent races" are just smart animals, a giant eagle shouldn't have a culture, they are just clever.
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 04:02 AM	got a link to that old pic of the nymph? :D
EffigyOfFaith 03-14-07, 08:05 AM	Aboleth Since the aboleth’s habitat is subterranean-aquatic it does not factor in to the typical society building that takes placed during world creation. I am, a first glance, ready to place this guy in a category I’ll call: Ancient Horror. This category will be for monsters that do not have civilizations, and any Ancient Horror will be around specifically to flavor a very specific location or adventure. Since the aboleth’s method of reproduction is asexual it will not need a breeding population. However it is of huge size and therefore will need a fairly large area from which to get it’s food. It’s abilities make it a perfect evil mastermind working behind the scenes. That said if your world is underdark heavy than placing the aboleth should require more thought. There could even be aboleth cities. But not in my world.
EffigyOfFaith 03-14-07, 08:10 AM	Arenea This is a personal favorite monster. Spiders are cool and I hate the drow that puts arenea high on my list. I despise alignment restriction so “usually neutral” makes a much more interesting monster. It’s environment states temperate forests, but I think that an arenea could make it in many more diverse habitats from jungle to subterranean. An arenea would also excel in a city/town adventure due to its alternate form. Don’t forget that all monsters will require a breeding population in the area or will need to be incredibly long lived, and or willing and able to travel long distances to reproduce. Arenea are not generally a candidate for racial nation or city, but a small tribe in the woods or city based secret organization would suit them well. An arenea might make an interesting patron for a group of adventures, or even as a more colorful village witch, or potion brewer.
Yakman 03-14-07, 11:07 AM	drop orcs? are you serious? why not? there's literally dozens of races that are pretty much "ugly strong dudes you can kill in large numbers." The three principle ones are hobgoblins, orcs, and gnolls. Basically, all three are the same, barring some alignment differences (and people can be of all alignments, so why not these guys?). Gnolls are the coolest--nasty wolf faces, fur, big teeth. That's scary stuff. If you want to drop the number of intelligent races in the game, but still want "ugly strong dudes you can kill in large numbers," then drop the orcs and the hobgoblins and stick with the gnolls.
EffigyOfFaith 03-14-07, 11:33 AM	regarding orcs, drop them or not your choice. For those that want to drop them they have made some reasonable points. There are many races that fill the same role. However if you like them then keep them in your game. There is really no point in arguing this issue.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-14-07, 04:50 PM	I could do without treants, and without all of the core races except for the gnomes. There's really no reason why thet ALL haven't been wiped out, an elf or orc or human or dwarf of a given level is nearly as pathetic as a kobold of the same class and level. I'd only even recommend keeping the gnomes because they're so cool.
Yakman 03-14-07, 06:03 PM	got a link to that old pic of the nymph? :D Unfortunately no. Back then, if you looked at her when she was naked, you had to save v. death, or die. Even if you made the save, you were blinded for life.
KeshFerrar 03-14-07, 07:33 PM	Arenea This is a personal favorite monster. Spiders are cool and I hate the drow that puts arenea high on my list. I despise alignment restriction so “usually neutral” makes a much more interesting monster.... I agree completely with your comments. I thought the arenea we're a keeper when I first stumbled upon them in the 2nd ed. For those who'd like a decent arenea adventure there's one in Dungeon 137 (http://paizo.com/dungeon/products/issues/2006/137).
EffigyOfFaith 03-15-07, 08:34 AM	Athach The problem with the athach is there is nothing it can’t do that a orgre, troll, ettin or hill giant can’t do as well or better. However I still kind of like the Athach; I think he has some undeniable charm. He is useful both as a strong arm minion for a spell caster, or as the hired punching power for a group of other smaller monstrous humanoids. I’ll keep the Athach for now until I have a list of all the humanoid-ish monsters that I want to keep.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-15-07, 10:25 AM	There has been a lot of talk on the boards recently about paring down the list of intelligent “monsters” to something more reasonable for world building. I think that this makes a lot of sense when trying to construct a more believable world; especially with out the need to include everything since, often, your world will not be for publication. Therefore I am listing the intelligent non-extraplanar monsters from the SRD. and begin discussing their role in a world building sense. For my purposes intelligent means above 4 or 5 though I’m going to be flexible on this. I will later discuss my exploration through which ones to keep and which ones to pass over. My discussion on roles this is mostly for my campaign, but I thought other might be interested. I would also like to draw on my biology background and make some purly editorial comments about my imaging on the ecology of these monsters, entirely for my entertainment. I too have had trouble justifying the existence of such a large range/variety of intelligent monsters/creatutres in game. It doesn't at first seem to make sense, as even if you assume that the majority of them were created artificially by deities one would expect most of them to still wind up being either eliminated or pushed back into a very small territory by competition with other intelligent races for resources, (competition reinforced, by the way, by the fact that heavily mixed communities of many different creature types would have comparatively low population growth due to the fact that, with the exception of some of the highly magical species (or those whose importance is illogically aggrandized by the game designers), any given creature's choices of possible mates in such a community would be limited to a very small cross section of the population, and thus limiting birth rate in such communities except in the case of large cities, and thus making such communities less prone to long term survival, etc. etc. etc.) However, I have found that a large number of intelligent species does make sense in a setting which does not take place on an earth sized planet. If the campaign instead took place on a jupiter sized world, or on many worlds (as in the Spelljammer or Planescape campaign settings) then there is plenty of room for all of these creatures/species to logically be able to co-exist without wiping each other out or needing constant divine intervention (beyond the mere use of cleric (and adept) spells) to sustain themselves. As in such a setting there is plenty of room for different species to build up their strength and numbers in isolation before even encountering any other intelligent species.
EffigyOfFaith 03-15-07, 03:47 PM	Bugbear Oh the gobliniods. Why are there so many of you? As with the athach I’ll decide which ones to keep a little later. This one is chaotic so it is really more similar to orcs than it is to goblins and hobgoblins. I would just need to have a reason for there to be so many monstrous humanoids.
EffigyOfFaith 03-15-07, 03:49 PM	Behir Reduce intelligence to 3. Remove language. Now it’s just a monster. Now it can serve as a wild monster in the wilderness, a creature is some lightning themed environment, a minion for an air or lightning themed bbeg, or a mini-boss for a group of shocker lizards. The behir has the nifty can’t be tripped ability so it is DM counter to the popular tripping fighter builds. I think it’s safe to say that these are carnivorous creatures. I imagine these gals laying eggs. On reflection they’re a cooler monster than I thought at first I might place a homeland for these guys, maybe in a desert.
Yakman 03-15-07, 03:55 PM	Bugbear Oh the gobliniods. Why are there so many of you? As with the athach I’ll decide which ones to keep a little later. This one is chaotic so it is really more similar to orcs than it is to goblins and hobgoblins. I would just need to have a reason for there to be so many monstrous humanoids. I just use the Bugbear for what it's supposed to be: Evil Dude for Slaying +1. It's intended to be a jacked orc/hobgoblin/gnoll. Just switch the appearance as you want, and add the phrase: "quite a bit bigger than the standard _______"
EffigyOfFaith 03-15-07, 03:55 PM	Blink dogs are dumb they are gone. Centaur I like centaurs and I want to keep them. They have an intelligence penalty which suggests a reduced ability to civilize. That probably means that they form tribes. Alternatively they could exist in other civilizations filling the manual labor role. I think this second role will be more useful especially since I want to limit the number of primitive tribal races. So there, the centaur is integrated into common society often fill a role as manual labor, and a much sought after conscript for armies. However many will be self employed owning their own farms and businesses. Hmm…what kind of business would a centaur own?
Yakman 03-15-07, 03:57 PM	If it has an intelligence penalty, how is it going to run a business or a farm?
EffigyOfFaith 03-16-07, 08:13 AM	It only has a minus -2 to int. The means the average int for a centaur is only marginally lower than the average human. A reasonable, albeit small, portion of centaurs will have ints of 14 and above certainly capable of managing a business.
EffigyOfFaith 03-16-07, 08:35 AM	Chuul cloaker Dumb tossed them out. Couatl I have never used these before, but I don’t really have anything against them. The picture is cool enough, the abilities are fine, I just don’t have any fluff to really make them interesting. If I end up including them they can be from some undefined remote location, another continent or some tropical island. So these await my world being a bit more fleshed out. If anyone has any idea couatls I’d appreciate suggestions.
gorckat 03-16-07, 11:18 AM	What about just making some of the monsters dumb? Chuul (or Rock Lobsters as my group knows them :p), for example...with animal intelligence and behaviors, they could work as really cool critters to run across and do battle with. Imagine a beach that is the only non-cliff access to an island adventure with hundreds of Chuul of varying sizes, kind of like you see on the nature shows with walruses or seals..."So- who brought ropes?"
Pegasos989 03-16-07, 06:16 PM	First of all, I think a lot of people are overestimating how stupid something is. Average orc has wisdom 8-9. Average human has 10-11. This means 1 point of diffrence in modifier. If there is some task requiring DC 8 wisdom check for example, 60% of 1st level NPC humans can do it and 55% of NPC orcs can do it. The diffrence is really small. Orcs are, statwise, completely capable of farming (they might even be more suitable for it than humans due to the STR helping in several tasks), it is just about the culture you give them - all humans don't have exactly identical culture so why would all orcs have? That said, I greatly reduce the races of intelligent monsters in my campaigns. I see no reason for Drow or Duegar as I can just have, you know, evil dwarves and elves. I do have orcs, but they are really, really stupid (around int 3) and have a bit diffrent stats. They live mostly in caves or forests, use simple wooden or rock weapons and are nearly like animals who just use weapons. A bit neandertalish. I got rid of hobgoblins, because if I want LE race in the mountains, I can use dwarves. If in the forest, I can use goblins. I didn't find hobgoblins to really fill any need in the world... EDIT: The significant intelligent races I have: Dwarves, elves, humans, gnomes, halflings, goblins Then there are a few things that can be rarely encountered, such as the orcs, skavens (or whatever those rat people are), etc. in small communities Then there are a few things I use once in a while. Dragons might come up once in every few campaigns, for example. Then there are the wierd ones, like aranea. In many human cities, people fear everything because they know that at nights, the aranea might come and take them away... People keep armed guards, etc. to keep them away. They are very few (like one or two in every big city) but still significant...
Rhydur Meith 03-16-07, 06:50 PM	drop orcs? are you serious? Modern Humans out-competed Neanderthals, eventually leading to the extinction of the latter. This happened a number of times in the past, with populations of big bi-peds (the Asian creature some credit with inspiring the Yeti legends) to the little halfling like folks somewhere around Polynesia. (I'm too lazy to look up the scientific names, sorry). So, the only "real world" example we have is that basically only the single smartest, most adapted bi-ped can survive. But that's no fun! So, in my campaign, I do try to explain how different races survived by being better adapted to their environments, which limits humans much than your typical fantasy setting. They fill the niche role in temperate grasslands, mostly. Elves are more woodland, dwarves underground in mountains, orcs & ogres in mountains, etc. Of course, I also have a written mythology that credits various deities and other creatures with creating races. For example, dwarves favor ancestor worship because they were supposedly created by giants, not gods. They then revolted and escaped,mostly, though some were granted freedom. I've yet to decide if these myths are true, or if it was just a different evolutionary path than followed here on Earth.
khyron1144 03-16-07, 06:53 PM	I think there are two ways to build flavor by number of races: 1) Star Trek/ Lord of the Rings Approach: Not very many major races, most of them pretty close to humans and multiple human cultures to create flavor. 2) Star Wars/ Xanth: Everything and the kitchen sink approach. A lot of races. Some races of one creature created under weird circumstances. Create races to fulfil cultural needs. Creatures don't stay that close to human norm. My own world (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=796777) leans towards method 2. Both methods work.
EffigyOfFaith 03-19-07, 02:07 PM	The delver is generally fine, but in my experience it usually played as a hunger driven repository of information about what is going on underground. As such I am decreasing it’s it to 6. Intelligent enough to have a conversation with but I don’t see a delver mastermind of anything anytime soon. That said I don’t think I’ll be using these guys that much.
EffigyOfFaith 03-19-07, 02:10 PM	Derro Destrachan Doppleganger Don’t like them they’re gone. Next time my thought on the inclusion of dragons
Wyvern76 04-04-07, 06:01 PM	Hmm…what kind of business would a centaur own?Teamster, taxi service, something like that. They'd make good farm laborers too -- no need for oxen, just hitch the plow up to the centaur. Wyvern
Windbit 04-04-07, 08:26 PM	Personally I don't understand the reason for making dragons so intelligent. I prefer the idea of dragons being about as intelligent as the smartest dinosaurs.
taradusis 04-04-07, 08:38 PM	If you take away a dragons intelligence you might as well use a dinosaur.I favor making all dragons into one species with colors and powers growing out of alignment.This would be similar to the celestial bureacracy of the oriental dragons.
Yakman 04-06-07, 11:14 AM	If you take away a dragons intelligence you might as well use a dinosaur. yeah... except they fly, have spells, a breath weapon, and a fear radius...
EffigyOfFaith 04-06-07, 03:57 PM	Dragon Everyone (or at least everyone I know) loves dragons. They are, in the old sense of the word awesome, that is, they inspire awe. When my players first faced a dragon, it was a group of first time players, the excitement was palatable. Fighting dragons is a good portion of what fantasy is based off of, from St. George and the dragon to the hobbit and beyond. For my world I plan on making big changes to the dragons. I am of the opinion that Good dragons and Evil dragons are kind of lame. Especially when you can tell which is which by the color of it’s scales. Even with out quoting MLKJ I think you might understand why I find this idea distastefully. Not to mention that the barbaric monstrous humanoids often have skin tones associated with people of Asian and African heritage. However my main point good metallic and evil chromatic is not very interesting from a game standpoint. In the fantasy literature that I am familiar with I have two types of dragons that I particularly enjoy, Ursula K. LeGuin’s dragons from the Earth Sea books and George R.R Martins Dragons from Song of Ice and Fire. Now granted these are very very different dragon ideas so I’ll talk about what I like from each and try to arrive at the traits that I want my dragons to have. Starting with Earthsea dragons: Dragons are ancient creature. Dragons are very intelligent and wise. They are neither good nor evil, but very dangerous to humans. Dragons do not talk to most people only “dragon lords” can engage them in conversation. As with most popular dragons, they breathe fire and often horde material wealth. Dragons speak the language of creation, the language of magic; as such, they are inherently magical beings. Humans and dragons were once one people that became divided by religion magic and the promise of eternal life. Some dragons can appear in human form. Ice and fire dragons are much simpler. They are if animal or at least sub human intelligence, and therefore neither good nor evil (this is so far in the books, I personally suspect otherwise, at least in some cases.) Dragons were used as mounts by the valyrians, who with them, conquered huge territory. They are a/the source of magical power; spells do not work (well) without dragons. Dragons may have great significance in protecting life from great destruction. So at this point I’m not sure whether to give all dragons divine rank 0 or make them simply magical beasts. I think I’ll take an in between path. This will come out in some ways similar to traditional Dnd dragons. I am however going to tie dragons deeply in to the fundamental nature of my world.