Justice in a Magical World [Archive] - Wizards Community

Justice in a Magical World [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GoriceXII
06-12-07, 12:05 PM I'd like some input on this. Basically one of my pcs wants to know how the legal system in my campaign functions in a world where wizards or clerics can be consulted. In this particular case a pair of high ranking officials were having a conversation in which one of them talked about in effect possibly assassinating a high ranking military commander. The pc was using psionics to overhear this conversation unseen. My question is: how could he theoretically present convincing evidence in a D&D context and how might things proceed in response? Would say a cleric or wizard be used as an expert to determine the truth, and how would everyone know that they were telling the truth?
deanruel
06-13-07, 08:28 PM I think something like this depends heavily upon your idea of your campaign setting and also how "high up" such crimes might occur. For instance with your run of the mill cattle theft no one is going to be calling in scrying attempts and zone's of truth. The cost of such a thing would far outweigh that of the actual crime. On the other hand if you are talking about the kingdom's General planning on murdering the King THEN you're talking some seriously magical courtroom antics. Detect Magic to remove any magical items, detect alignment to see if they're evil, zone of truth's and suggestion enchantments to make sure they aren't lying, communes to ask questions to the god's, all SORTS of stuff to make sure that those in the highest station of power remain unharmed.

That last line is worth noting however. And this is why I said it depends on your campaign setting. Keep in mind that the rules in all society's are constructed to provide the most benefit to that society's elite. Meaning the rules are ALWAYS made to help the big guys. And it may be beneficial to the big guys across the board to be able to get away with doing bad things. So for example it may be illegal to ask royalty any questions under enchantment, or something like that.

So in conclusion the rules for determining the criminal justice system in a magical society are, like everything else, up to you as a DM. To create a truly believable system just remember that it's all about power, and that whatever's system exists it will exist to the greatest benefit of the big guys.
nightside_samurai
06-13-07, 08:33 PM Something to note, is that it's also easy to use Clerics and Wizards to obscure the truth as well as discover it.

And as noted by the previous poster, the laws are often put in place to protect the higher ups, but you could make this uncommon in your setting and have a twist in the system where the higher ups are under even more scrutiny that the little people.
mlasater
06-13-07, 09:00 PM I have dealt with this issue multiple times in my campain world. Each society/culture can have a different take on the use of mystical abilities for gathering information. Some ban all of it, some place restrictions, & so forth. The important thing to consider is how the legal system handles evidence & the use of mystical abilities in general.

Just because the evidence was gathered with magic doesn't make it TRUTH.

OP's specific case. On a fundamental level, overhearing a converstion using psionics isn't really all that different from hiding in the shadows & hearing it.

So, would the authorities even listen to the character if they went to some one & said "I just overheard the military leaders plotting to assassinate someone". If the answer is no - it doesn't matter HOW the information was onbtained if the source is considered suspect.

Two - does the society consider using mystically abilities to eavesdrop legal (note the equivelent, using a electronic bug to eavesdrop isn't really legal in many modern society). If the action is illegal, then the information may be considered invalid or they may accept it & arrest the character also.

The problem people have with mystical information sources & the legal system, it they assume that information gathered magically is TRUTH and all will accept it as TRUTH. The fact is, it might be right, it might be wrong, the caster of the spell might lie. So, its just evidence & the credibility of the witnesses can become more important than the actual information (often a problem for scruffy adventurer types).
Zousha_Omenohu
06-14-07, 12:19 AM Though this is more like a cop-out than anything else, you could always decide that the laws are like the ones in Cliffport (from Order of the Stick). Evidence gathered via magic is not allowed in court, because it's too easy to use magic to swing things to your favor. You could also do something similar to the OotS's trial in Azure City, and use magic in the court proceedings. For a more specific example, instead of having a regular human judge who can be influenced by magic or even a simple bribe, summon an archon (or devil, depending on the alignment of the nation) to preside over the court (although this too can be rigged by magic, as the comic later proves).
GoriceXII
06-14-07, 10:09 AM Thanks for the input so far...all of you have pointed out some of the inherent problems in assuming magic will solve the problem.

A little context before I continue: the setting is a republic that two generations ago overthrew a corrupt and cruel monarchy. One of the results of this is a general emancipation of men and women, abolition of slavery and a semi-socialist system of government. The official in question is commander of the Council Police, an organization meant to be an organ of state security. The person he was considering assassinating is a general who is (falsely) considered by some leading members of the ruling council to be planning to set up a separate state in the region she is in chrage of defending.

I think that if magic is used there would still have to be evidence. In an earlier justice matter in my game I had permitted magic to be used as evidence because the group were able to prove that certainly cultists posing as ordinary citizens had a secret shrine under a hill with undead dwelling in it that they were feeding their victims to. This was pretty obvious physical evidence though magical. However proving intent when nothing has been done is difficult and if it is the Commander I can't see how the pcs' reputation will weigh against his.
Zousha_Omenohu
06-14-07, 01:23 PM Agreed. Real physical evidence is hard to disprove with magic, and a simple dispelling will foil any attempts to doctor it. If said evidence is planted or something, then there may be problems.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoriceXII 06-12-07, 12:05 PM	I'd like some input on this. Basically one of my pcs wants to know how the legal system in my campaign functions in a world where wizards or clerics can be consulted. In this particular case a pair of high ranking officials were having a conversation in which one of them talked about in effect possibly assassinating a high ranking military commander. The pc was using psionics to overhear this conversation unseen. My question is: how could he theoretically present convincing evidence in a D&D context and how might things proceed in response? Would say a cleric or wizard be used as an expert to determine the truth, and how would everyone know that they were telling the truth?
deanruel 06-13-07, 08:28 PM	I think something like this depends heavily upon your idea of your campaign setting and also how "high up" such crimes might occur. For instance with your run of the mill cattle theft no one is going to be calling in scrying attempts and zone's of truth. The cost of such a thing would far outweigh that of the actual crime. On the other hand if you are talking about the kingdom's General planning on murdering the King THEN you're talking some seriously magical courtroom antics. Detect Magic to remove any magical items, detect alignment to see if they're evil, zone of truth's and suggestion enchantments to make sure they aren't lying, communes to ask questions to the god's, all SORTS of stuff to make sure that those in the highest station of power remain unharmed. That last line is worth noting however. And this is why I said it depends on your campaign setting. Keep in mind that the rules in all society's are constructed to provide the most benefit to that society's elite. Meaning the rules are ALWAYS made to help the big guys. And it may be beneficial to the big guys across the board to be able to get away with doing bad things. So for example it may be illegal to ask royalty any questions under enchantment, or something like that. So in conclusion the rules for determining the criminal justice system in a magical society are, like everything else, up to you as a DM. To create a truly believable system just remember that it's all about power, and that whatever's system exists it will exist to the greatest benefit of the big guys.
nightside_samurai 06-13-07, 08:33 PM	Something to note, is that it's also easy to use Clerics and Wizards to obscure the truth as well as discover it. And as noted by the previous poster, the laws are often put in place to protect the higher ups, but you could make this uncommon in your setting and have a twist in the system where the higher ups are under even more scrutiny that the little people.
mlasater 06-13-07, 09:00 PM	I have dealt with this issue multiple times in my campain world. Each society/culture can have a different take on the use of mystical abilities for gathering information. Some ban all of it, some place restrictions, & so forth. The important thing to consider is how the legal system handles evidence & the use of mystical abilities in general. Just because the evidence was gathered with magic doesn't make it TRUTH. OP's specific case. On a fundamental level, overhearing a converstion using psionics isn't really all that different from hiding in the shadows & hearing it. So, would the authorities even listen to the character if they went to some one & said "I just overheard the military leaders plotting to assassinate someone". If the answer is no - it doesn't matter HOW the information was onbtained if the source is considered suspect. Two - does the society consider using mystically abilities to eavesdrop legal (note the equivelent, using a electronic bug to eavesdrop isn't really legal in many modern society). If the action is illegal, then the information may be considered invalid or they may accept it & arrest the character also. The problem people have with mystical information sources & the legal system, it they assume that information gathered magically is TRUTH and all will accept it as TRUTH. The fact is, it might be right, it might be wrong, the caster of the spell might lie. So, its just evidence & the credibility of the witnesses can become more important than the actual information (often a problem for scruffy adventurer types).
Zousha_Omenohu 06-14-07, 12:19 AM	Though this is more like a cop-out than anything else, you could always decide that the laws are like the ones in Cliffport (from Order of the Stick). Evidence gathered via magic is not allowed in court, because it's too easy to use magic to swing things to your favor. You could also do something similar to the OotS's trial in Azure City, and use magic in the court proceedings. For a more specific example, instead of having a regular human judge who can be influenced by magic or even a simple bribe, summon an archon (or devil, depending on the alignment of the nation) to preside over the court (although this too can be rigged by magic, as the comic later proves).
GoriceXII 06-14-07, 10:09 AM	Thanks for the input so far...all of you have pointed out some of the inherent problems in assuming magic will solve the problem. A little context before I continue: the setting is a republic that two generations ago overthrew a corrupt and cruel monarchy. One of the results of this is a general emancipation of men and women, abolition of slavery and a semi-socialist system of government. The official in question is commander of the Council Police, an organization meant to be an organ of state security. The person he was considering assassinating is a general who is (falsely) considered by some leading members of the ruling council to be planning to set up a separate state in the region she is in chrage of defending. I think that if magic is used there would still have to be evidence. In an earlier justice matter in my game I had permitted magic to be used as evidence because the group were able to prove that certainly cultists posing as ordinary citizens had a secret shrine under a hill with undead dwelling in it that they were feeding their victims to. This was pretty obvious physical evidence though magical. However proving intent when nothing has been done is difficult and if it is the Commander I can't see how the pcs' reputation will weigh against his.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-14-07, 01:23 PM	Agreed. Real physical evidence is hard to disprove with magic, and a simple dispelling will foil any attempts to doctor it. If said evidence is planted or something, then there may be problems.