Making Towns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Making Towns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Danarchy84
05-16-07, 10:30 AM I was wondering how everyone here make and stat out their towns. Do you guys use the DMG guidelines? Do you use them as a starting point? Do you just go completely freeform? Use anything from other sources?

I'm just curious because I like to use the DMG rules but have a few minor niggles with it. The most glaring one is how multiclass NPCs fit in with NPC generation. Should a city with 4 5th-level fighters be considered to have one of those fighters be a fighter 3/rogue 2? Or a fighter 5/rogue 2? Or should multiclass characters be so rare that they should only be used as special NPCs (probably a good rule of thumb for PrCs)? What about combos that are likely to be fairly common such as commoner/warriors or aristocrat/experts?

Also, the town gold piece limits, while realistic, seem to hamper PCs when wanting to purchace magic items. Anything more than a +1 sword would be difficult to acquire outside of a city. Or should such magic items only be found or created anyway?

It's not like this topic is anything anyone should lose sleep over, but I'm just curious how everyone goes about it just for fun (and so I can pick up some tips). :P
taradusis
05-17-07, 10:31 PM I'm retired from GMing but I've used a variety of methods over the years.I started with tables from the old"Who's in charge here"articles that appeared in Dragon magazine.With the advent of 3ED I've used the random town generator and added extra Npcs as required.Under the GP limit guidelines magic items of note can only be had in the city,requires PCs to leave border towns and head to the big city.
Baernwulf_of_Nor
05-18-07, 12:52 AM I don't like the randomness of towns. I make towns as destinations, not pieces of paper I can wave and say"Aha! See? This area is more than a tavern and a general store. Tricked ya!"

But really..I like GP limits. I don't feel like Gordon Nooneimportant of Nowhereinparticularton should be holding onto a +5 Vorpal Slaying Longsword just in case the PC's decide they want one in that town.

I usually just go from scrath, but thats cuz i have no books.:P

BoN
queenfange
05-19-07, 05:48 AM I think the gp limits are valuable, as ignoring them would lead to highly unrealistic economies. Why would a farming and blacksmith town of 1,000 people have +2 flaming battleaxes for sale? There's no way the community could afford to produce them; the resources would be much better put into new blacksmith tools, farming equipment, and other necessary materials.

That said, I don't like their random NPC generating method. It's basically designed for lazy and newbie DMs, but it really shouldn't restrict you. Use it as a guideline, but don't feel constrained by it. Perhaps the hamlet has strategic value to a trio of necromancer archmages, being located close to a tomb they believed to be filled with very powerful undead. As long as you have reasons for why special NPCs (basically, NPCs with more than one or two levels in a PC class) live where they do, there shouldn't be a problem.
Theskippingman
05-20-07, 12:14 AM Best.Population.Generation.System.Ever.:

http://www.3rdedition.org/resources/files/zips/popdemo_springuel.zip
Danarchy84
05-21-07, 11:08 AM Thanks, Theskippingman. This generation method looks interesting. I'll be checking it out.
Naderion
05-21-07, 01:11 PM I think the economic stats for setlements are quite usefull and good enought to use as they are, but form of government and the important NPCs are all made 'manually'. Usually I have a good idea what the town should be like, and more important, what the whole world should be like.
It makes a huge difference if level 12 PCs are considere 'epic' by the people around them, or if level 23 characters are an everyday sight. Also, even though there may be half as much gnomes as humans in the world, 30% gnomes in a city in a country where there are usually no gnomes doesn't make sense.
Most tables aren't that bad, but why should anyone ever want to roll such things?
Jürgen Hubert
05-22-07, 04:21 AM I usually don't use statistics as a starting point for cities. Instead, I try to come up with an idea for a city - the general point of its existence - and then justify it within the context of the setting.

IMO, it's much more fun this way.
Lazulli
05-22-07, 10:03 AM I don't use any of the DMG stuff (but then my world is a lot different so much of it doesn't apply).

What I tend to do is start with a map and sometimes a sketch of the town. I decide on its importance (which is reflected in its size) and if it serves as a centre of some kind of economy or not.

On the map I start with buildings common to many towns and such. A tavern and an inn or two (depending on size), a town hall or other administrative buildings, any shops (if present) and/or market place, a brewery, sawmill, etc etc.

Water source is important, so a well, aqueduct or spring would be on there. The town might alternatively draw water from the river (ick) and might include some kind of dock and a bridge, ferry or ford if it's a big river.

If the town is in a dangerous region, it would have some defenses, either a ditch and bank or wooden palisade. If it was big and wealthy, a stone wall.
If there is a militia, there might be a barracks or guardhouse, or it might just be empty space.

You get the idea. Anyway, pretty soon, you already have a lot to put down on the map. So then it's time to arrange it.

If it's a fairly new town, it might feature a regular more thought-out plan, possibly a roman-style grid layout. But if it's an old town, it might be more irregular, or be more of a sprawl. Or might be kinda irregular built on an old regular plan which would show through in the current layout.
This can also spin off and give you some ideas on the city history. Maybe one of the wall towers used to be a city gate, then people stopped using it (for whatever reason, maybe they built a bigger one elsewhere), so they walled it up, then some rich merchant/noble bought it and converted it into an expensive apartment, etc etc. Little things like that!

Then you consider the surroundings. If it has a high population then the plains around it are most likely heavily farmed to support the population. etc etc.

Finally, I decide what it looks and smells like (does it have a sewer? do people dump their waste in the street). Knowing the architecture is quite important so you can better describe it. Do people live in a slightly irregular bunch of wooden, thatched structures? or are they more like roman-style stone tenement buildings?

Anyway, pretty soon, you have a population centre. So then I start thinking about the main NPCs. Town Mayor or local noble ruler, Militia Commander or Captain of the Watch, the local magistrate or sheriff. Just the main ones to start with.

If you know the PCs are just gonna be passing through, you can be sketchy on a lot of the details, but I find most of that can be written fairly quickly anyway.

That's a poor summary of how I do it!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Danarchy84 05-16-07, 10:30 AM	I was wondering how everyone here make and stat out their towns. Do you guys use the DMG guidelines? Do you use them as a starting point? Do you just go completely freeform? Use anything from other sources? I'm just curious because I like to use the DMG rules but have a few minor niggles with it. The most glaring one is how multiclass NPCs fit in with NPC generation. Should a city with 4 5th-level fighters be considered to have one of those fighters be a fighter 3/rogue 2? Or a fighter 5/rogue 2? Or should multiclass characters be so rare that they should only be used as special NPCs (probably a good rule of thumb for PrCs)? What about combos that are likely to be fairly common such as commoner/warriors or aristocrat/experts? Also, the town gold piece limits, while realistic, seem to hamper PCs when wanting to purchace magic items. Anything more than a +1 sword would be difficult to acquire outside of a city. Or should such magic items only be found or created anyway? It's not like this topic is anything anyone should lose sleep over, but I'm just curious how everyone goes about it just for fun (and so I can pick up some tips). :P
taradusis 05-17-07, 10:31 PM	I'm retired from GMing but I've used a variety of methods over the years.I started with tables from the old"Who's in charge here"articles that appeared in Dragon magazine.With the advent of 3ED I've used the random town generator and added extra Npcs as required.Under the GP limit guidelines magic items of note can only be had in the city,requires PCs to leave border towns and head to the big city.
Baernwulf_of_Nor 05-18-07, 12:52 AM	I don't like the randomness of towns. I make towns as destinations, not pieces of paper I can wave and say"Aha! See? This area is more than a tavern and a general store. Tricked ya!" But really..I like GP limits. I don't feel like Gordon Nooneimportant of Nowhereinparticularton should be holding onto a +5 Vorpal Slaying Longsword just in case the PC's decide they want one in that town. I usually just go from scrath, but thats cuz i have no books.:P BoN
queenfange 05-19-07, 05:48 AM	I think the gp limits are valuable, as ignoring them would lead to highly unrealistic economies. Why would a farming and blacksmith town of 1,000 people have +2 flaming battleaxes for sale? There's no way the community could afford to produce them; the resources would be much better put into new blacksmith tools, farming equipment, and other necessary materials. That said, I don't like their random NPC generating method. It's basically designed for lazy and newbie DMs, but it really shouldn't restrict you. Use it as a guideline, but don't feel constrained by it. Perhaps the hamlet has strategic value to a trio of necromancer archmages, being located close to a tomb they believed to be filled with very powerful undead. As long as you have reasons for why special NPCs (basically, NPCs with more than one or two levels in a PC class) live where they do, there shouldn't be a problem.
Theskippingman 05-20-07, 12:14 AM	Best.Population.Generation.System.Ever.: http://www.3rdedition.org/resources/files/zips/popdemo_springuel.zip
Danarchy84 05-21-07, 11:08 AM	Thanks, Theskippingman. This generation method looks interesting. I'll be checking it out.
Naderion 05-21-07, 01:11 PM	I think the economic stats for setlements are quite usefull and good enought to use as they are, but form of government and the important NPCs are all made 'manually'. Usually I have a good idea what the town should be like, and more important, what the whole world should be like. It makes a huge difference if level 12 PCs are considere 'epic' by the people around them, or if level 23 characters are an everyday sight. Also, even though there may be half as much gnomes as humans in the world, 30% gnomes in a city in a country where there are usually no gnomes doesn't make sense. Most tables aren't that bad, but why should anyone ever want to roll such things?
Jürgen Hubert 05-22-07, 04:21 AM	I usually don't use statistics as a starting point for cities. Instead, I try to come up with an idea for a city - the general point of its existence - and then justify it within the context of the setting. IMO, it's much more fun this way.
Lazulli 05-22-07, 10:03 AM	I don't use any of the DMG stuff (but then my world is a lot different so much of it doesn't apply). What I tend to do is start with a map and sometimes a sketch of the town. I decide on its importance (which is reflected in its size) and if it serves as a centre of some kind of economy or not. On the map I start with buildings common to many towns and such. A tavern and an inn or two (depending on size), a town hall or other administrative buildings, any shops (if present) and/or market place, a brewery, sawmill, etc etc. Water source is important, so a well, aqueduct or spring would be on there. The town might alternatively draw water from the river (ick) and might include some kind of dock and a bridge, ferry or ford if it's a big river. If the town is in a dangerous region, it would have some defenses, either a ditch and bank or wooden palisade. If it was big and wealthy, a stone wall. If there is a militia, there might be a barracks or guardhouse, or it might just be empty space. You get the idea. Anyway, pretty soon, you already have a lot to put down on the map. So then it's time to arrange it. If it's a fairly new town, it might feature a regular more thought-out plan, possibly a roman-style grid layout. But if it's an old town, it might be more irregular, or be more of a sprawl. Or might be kinda irregular built on an old regular plan which would show through in the current layout. This can also spin off and give you some ideas on the city history. Maybe one of the wall towers used to be a city gate, then people stopped using it (for whatever reason, maybe they built a bigger one elsewhere), so they walled it up, then some rich merchant/noble bought it and converted it into an expensive apartment, etc etc. Little things like that! Then you consider the surroundings. If it has a high population then the plains around it are most likely heavily farmed to support the population. etc etc. Finally, I decide what it looks and smells like (does it have a sewer? do people dump their waste in the street). Knowing the architecture is quite important so you can better describe it. Do people live in a slightly irregular bunch of wooden, thatched structures? or are they more like roman-style stone tenement buildings? Anyway, pretty soon, you have a population centre. So then I start thinking about the main NPCs. Town Mayor or local noble ruler, Militia Commander or Captain of the Watch, the local magistrate or sheriff. Just the main ones to start with. If you know the PCs are just gonna be passing through, you can be sketchy on a lot of the details, but I find most of that can be written fairly quickly anyway. That's a poor summary of how I do it!