Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bravo052492 11-01-07, 09:28 PM	I am just wondering, for I am not an expert on the topic I am about to ask about. Is the representation of military size in Dungeons and Dragons accurate to real life? For instance, would a society numbering in the 6000's really have an active military force in the 60's? Plus, of course, the 300 size normal military force? This, to me, seems weak, for many societies in the past have mustered large armies. Could someone either A: backup the current DnD system with facts showing that it is close to fact, or B: inform me of actual statistics of military. Oh, and also: The DMG says that 1% of every population is a GUARD, and that 5% is in the militia. What about regular military? Say, the kings special guards or the elite fighting force?
bloodtalon 11-02-07, 03:39 PM	back in the dark ages most forces were less the 50 men. and the "king" all ways were the first in and last out of combat. if he was not his men would loose the will to fight and lore likely to flee. but back then a "king" might only rule over his small keep and maybe 2 hamlets.
GoriceXII 11-02-07, 03:54 PM	On average only a small percentage of medieval society were regularly armed, trained and ready for action. Roughly 1% of the population in fact. While there were militias it's important to understand that a large percentage of the population were busy producing food and useful goods. The average manorial village might have one knight and then his men at arms or yeomen farmers, maybe just a couple of those. In your city of 6,000 on the other hand there would in addition to whatever permanent militia or soldiers existed be the citizenry themselves, who would probably contribute a person per household in time of war, and have musters every so often to train. I believe in some Medieval cities it was a requirement for citizenship to be able to provide (either by substitution or represenatation of the family) for a basic militia member. (crossbowman, cavalry or whatever) Population centers didn't get really big in Europe until the latest part of the Middle Ages. In the 12th century 6000 was about the population size of the 10 biggest cities in England, for instance, apart from London.
Anuvrix 11-08-07, 09:30 PM	Population centers didn't get really big in Europe until the latest part of the Middle Ages. In the 12th century 6000 was about the population size of the 10 biggest cities in England, for instance, apart from London. Ahh, but in many cases, there are cities slightly less in size than london, and the rules still only support an army few for sucha large number of people. One city in my world has 10000 residents who are ghosts, they cannot leave and will defend the city to their "death". Even with houses that nelong to the ghosts out of the equation, there is a good 20000+ residents. I am having trouble figuring how much of the population would be able to mobilize into an effective military force.
GoriceXII 11-09-07, 07:08 PM	About 500 actual warriors out of that number is a likely figure.
illiterate 11-10-07, 11:29 AM	anvurix.. do the ghosts also keep order? it seems likely that people in the city would not feel the need to become warriors. those inclined to violence would probably leave, or would have to be very covert about it. with one soldier for every two civvies, the town will feel very secure.. one other thing to remember is that in large engagements, a noble might conscript large numbers of commoners to fight. individually they are weak, in large numbers commoners can be dangerous on the battlefield. the biggest problem is lack of morale. if you are willing to sacrifice them to soften up the enemy, an effective formation is to put effectives behind the peasants to goad them forward. in D&D, that might make for an effective "spell soak" tactic. charge forward your commoners, let them absorb fireball, sleep, stinking clouds, etc.
pigknight 11-12-07, 05:41 PM	In my campains I use armies of 4k+. For Example: Grandal: Infantry: 2000 well trained Cavalry: 500 well trained Heavy Infantry: 450 well trained Other (Wizards, Clerics, Warlocks): 350 well trained Generals: 400 Monsters: 40 Ogres, 1 half-black fiendish wyrm red dragon, 25 young red dragons, 20 young black dragons. Rebellion: Infantry: 3000 random commoners Cavalry: 30 self-trained (1st-4th level fighters) Heavy Infantry: 25 self trained Other (Wizards, Clerics, Warlocks): 4 untrained (sorcerers, favored souls. Generals: 4 only well trained units Monsters: N/A I think my style gives the more epic feel, 'cause 500 vs 499 isn't that epic compared to other big battles (Lord of the Rings, 300, ect.).
Anuvrix 11-16-07, 09:13 AM	The ghosts cannot leave the city, and only serve as the executive force of the governing party. the most they can do is defend within the walls. I've figured out how im going to work it, and it seems like something that could be likely in a city-state. The only requirement of living in the city is that all males must sign into a raffle(cant remember what it is called) to be forced into the army during times of great trouble. The people are also required that one male of each family be trained in military combat and be part of a ready-to-act force. I think that this is the most likely way that a city could maintain a military.
WotC_Huscarl 11-16-07, 12:03 PM	If you mean, are they realistic in a historical sense -- you can find a precedent for just about anything. Medieval armies were quite small. OTOH, classical empires (Rome and Macedonia, for example) could maintain immense regular armies. Empires that didn't have big standing armies (Carthage) but had lots of wealth could raise an army pretty quickly by hiring 'barbarians' as mercenaries. Those 'barbaric' warrior societies who provided the mercenaries, such as the Celts and Germans, had no standing armies at all, other than each chieftain's handful of retainers. But in a time of war, nearly every able-bodied man was expected to pick up a sword and fight. That same thing could be said for many European medieval societies, but unlike the hapless medieval peasant armed with a spear, the part-time Celtic warrior was a ferocious fighter who dealt some crushing defeats to the Romans. A really devoted warrior society such as Sparta could put most of its adult men into the field and thrash all comers up and down the Pennessus, but Sparta also had a large base of slaves to do the menial labor, allowing the free men to practice war. In short, it really comes down to economics. A large, wealthy empire or kingdom can field a large, effective army. A decentralized, feudal kingdom can't. Steve
Rosisha 11-17-07, 12:39 AM	All of the above is true. The size of your military is determined by how large of a non-productive economic drain can your State support. A military is non-productive in terms of economics because their goal is to kill people (producers and laborers) and break things (like equipment and property). They are an economic drain because they have to have money spent on them, and do not produce salable product in return. Conquering territory can lead to initial gains, until the process of occupation occurs, at which point you have to spend more then you originally did as you have to not only have your military and forward units, but you now have to have a garrison force as well. Defensive armies will always be easier to maintain then offensive armies. 1) There is less attrition, and 2) A small defensive army can perform successfully while the State raises a larger force to actively repel invaders. In a civilization where organized, armed conflict is not common, then large standing armies are also usually not needed. Further, if the society has a strict rules of engagement, then usually those rules are followed. Clans in Albania, for example, use a blood feud system to settle disputes that, though deadly, has kept the various clans from erupting into all out warfare. Hopefully some of this information was helpful! Sincerely, Rosisha
BlessedOneOfNual 11-17-07, 02:53 PM	I am just wondering, for I am not an expert on the topic I am about to ask about. Is the representation of military size in Dungeons and Dragons accurate to real life? For instance, would a society numbering in the 6000's really have an active military force in the 60's? Plus, of course, the 300 size normal military force? This, to me, seems weak, for many societies in the past have mustered large armies. Could someone either A: backup the current DnD system with facts showing that it is close to fact, or B: inform me of actual statistics of military. Oh, and also: The DMG says that 1% of every population is a GUARD, and that 5% is in the militia. What about regular military? Say, the kings special guards or the elite fighting force? You may find this interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_tr oops TBH, I've always compared a high magic setting to the modern world for figuring things out like crop yields, troop percentages, etc. But like some people have said it really depends on the following: Economics (You can't have a larger army than you can afford or borrow for. People gotta eat. Feudal kingdoms had levies and the wealthy-class, nobility, to provide semi-professional troops. Rome raised small, professional armies with its large tax base but small population.) Need (e.g. If Orcs come raiding from the North every few summers...the nation is going to need to be able to stand up to that even if it is not always economically feasible. Most people rather go into debt than surrender homes that have been in their families for generations. If their are a group of magocracy city-states where all disputes are handled by mage duels....there isn't a great need for a huge army since. Especially if you have a large spellcasting force which can throw up enough obstacles in the path of an invading army long enough for you to gather the militia, conscript people, hire mercenaries, etc.) Culture (e.g. a warrior culture with a large slave population to do the 'day to day labor' like Sparta is more likely to maintain a larger professional force than say a renaissance Italian city-state.)
Delfedd 11-21-07, 10:15 AM	The other factor is that when soldiers, who are only paid through the loot they aquire during battles, are made to stand around for a long time in a rich city, one that would be quite good for looting, in fact, soldiers get... lets say restless. There have been many instances of this, and several cities have been sacked by their own standing army.
Holy_Beholder 11-24-07, 06:53 PM	On the other hand if a war starts there will probably be an increase in the amount of people in the military, but the actual, continual, standing army is going to be small otherwise, unless there is a really good reason for it not to be (ie, being surrounded by countries that have to go through yours to attack eachother, that are dire enemies, and much bigger than you. Or in the D&D world, near a high monster area.)
Positronica 11-28-07, 12:30 PM	In the campaign I'm running right now, the BBEG (a 5000 year old dry lich that's trying to ascend to god-hood), has fielded the following army... -Primary Attack Force 75,000 Hobgoblin & goblin infantry 5,000 Hobgoblin & goblin archers 8,000 Hobgoblin & goblin cavalry 2,000 Ogre & troll warriors 10,000 Orc irregulars ---------- 100,000 Total military force -Siege Force 2,000 Goblin engineers 8,000 Slave laborers -Siege Equipment 22 Large trebuchets 150 Light ballistae 75 Light catapults 8 Siege towers This armies primary purpose is to lay siege to fortified cities and to destroy anyone that won't renounce all other gods and worship only the BBEG. The army in the field was being commanded by a powerful, but overconfident, huge black dragon, who made the mistake of trying to take on the players' party single-handedly when the party was trying to rush past the sieging forces and enter the city that is the army's current target. With the black dragon now dead, and with a replacement general not yet on site, the players are hoping to find a way to help the threatened city break the siege.
WotC_Huscarl 11-28-07, 12:37 PM	There is one way that a small and/or poor kingdom can maintain a large army. Macedonia, for example, was not a rich kingdom, yet Alexander conquered all of Persia and much of Asia. He paid for that conquering army by conquering. Constant expansion means constant loot, but it's also self-propagating; as Delfedd pointed out, once such an army stalls in place, the loot stops flowing, the soldiers grow bored and restless, they strip the countyside of food and treasure, and then the desertions begin in earnest. Such an army maintains itself only by moving forward. It's a use it or lose it proposition. That's the model for the typical conquering horde in most fantasy epics. Steve