Post/Author/DateTime	Post
green_girl 10-21-07, 10:37 AM	I'm currently thinking of a modern campaign setting mixed with DnD core rules. Setting is the world as we know it-- the only difference is that gunpowder was not invented. Everyone still uses swords, maces and axes. Mall guards are equipped with short swords and crossbows. Marines trained in sword combat and such. I just want to ask if there are any supplementary books that might help me in this setting? Or do you guys have any input about this? Thanks a bunch in advance.
JackSnape 10-21-07, 04:51 PM	Look into D20 modern for some info on running a campaign based in modern times, There's a lot of gun stuff, but it can be mixed with D&D pretty well if you're creative and have the time to play with it. You might just be able to use it as flavor, since if you allow magic the modern stuff is largly just setting. Or you might decide to use the D20 system, which is more open, but has a lot less supplements, then add some D&D to it. Good luck it sounds fun.
Master_Vega 10-21-07, 05:23 PM	First I'll recommend the MSRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd). I'd personally just use D20Modern, but then I started with that as opposed to D&D so I'm biased. ;) Are you using magic in this campaign, or is it simply the modern day without guns? If it's the latter, you'll probably want to run it using D20Modern's system. The style of classes and such works a whole lot better for modern day characters... Of course you'll need to make a few modifications to some of the classes because the Fast Hero will suffer a lot with guns taken away. But enough of my shameless plugging of D20Modern. :P Setting questions: -Are there cars and planes? If combustion is discovered, it'll be kinda hard to make the absence of guns believable. Perhaps engines are wondrous items? -What about computers and lights? Simply leaving these things unexplained would work for a Sliders-like campaign, but if you're going to be spending the entire time in a world like this you need to start making explanations... Unless you have very unquestioning players. :P
Amon_V 10-21-07, 05:47 PM	Erm; this doesn't make any sense at all. I recognize that this is a fantasy setting and all, but given modern technology, people will do better than swords and stuff anyway. It there were no guns today, there would probably be lasers:eek: . No joke, the demand for a weapon that could hit at range and be highly lethal would probably have accelerated the weaponisation of that technology. The other alternative is rockets--they would get smaller until you had anti-infantry munitions. And even if we somehow say that all modern ranged weapons are gone (??), swords and axes have little chance of becoming the standard for melee weapons. Acetylene Torches, Chainsaws and Flamethrowers all deal more damage than pointy pieces of metal. And this is say that that thrown explosives still don't carry the day.
Master_Vega 10-21-07, 06:13 PM	Agreeing with Amon. Modern society gets a lot from the science behind guns, and if humanity was somehow forced to skip them we'd still have some sort of weapon more effective than swords and the like. It's your world, though. You'll need to change a whole lot of the modern flavor if you really want it to be believable... It'll probably end up as something resembling steam-punk with magic instead of steam (magic-punk?). Good luck!
Fireclave 10-21-07, 07:27 PM	Setting questions: -Are there cars and planes? If combustion is discovered, it'll be kinda hard to make the absence of guns believable. Perhaps engines are wondrous items? -What about computers and lights? Taking this point a step further; If the inverse were true, that combustion was not discovered, the mechanical development probably would not have proceeded much further than steam power. And this would have definate effects on your setting. For example, there'd probably be no modern transportation like cars and planes, which would greatly affect local international trade and relationships. Though you could still have electricity. Nuclear power plants are just really big and complicated steam turbines. And fuel cell technology could replace combustion engines in cars, and maybe planes and other vehicles, which would an interesting twist.
Rustmonster 10-21-07, 08:01 PM	Chainsaws Just to point out, chainsaws make awful weapons. Ya, it's scary, and it will tear you apart, but it's slow, messy, you'd need alot of strength to control it as it slowly works through the bone or else you'd end up slashing yourself, it would jam, run out of fuel, etc. It's only really effective when used on a single, unarmed, and hopefully non-aggressive target, good for scaring someone, slasher film style, but in heated combat, it's not reliable. Parry a blade, it's likely to just get lifted into your face. Either that or the saw will fly up and get imbeded in your skull.
Dragoon1 10-21-07, 08:23 PM	Erm; this doesn't make any sense at all. I recognize that this is a fantasy setting and all, but given modern technology, people will do better than swords and stuff anyway. It there were no guns today, there would probably be lasers:eek: . No joke, the demand for a weapon that could hit at range and be highly lethal would probably have accelerated the weaponisation of that technology. The other alternative is rockets--they would get smaller until you had anti-infantry munitions. And even if we somehow say that all modern ranged weapons are gone (??), swords and axes have little chance of becoming the standard for melee weapons. Acetylene Torches, Chainsaws and Flamethrowers all deal more damage than pointy pieces of metal. And this is say that that thrown explosives still don't carry the day. While you have a point, those weapons are not partiuclarly safe, and cause a great deal fo colateral damage. If two men are fighting, and both a have a flamethrower, neither wins because of the big tank of flamable gas or liquid each is carryign ignaiting, exploding, and taking the other guy with it. Rockets have the same problem in confined spaces. The nice thing about bullets is that if they explode outside a gun, they realy aren't adangerous, as the chaneeling of that explosion is what makes the bullet travel at high speeds. Lasers and coilguns still take way too much energy, and while they may be efective in a future setting, they would not realy be so in a modern one. Sword and crossbow would be the most efficient thing if a world lacked gunpowder, the xbow was still used up until WW1 IIRC.
Master_Vega 10-21-07, 08:35 PM	Rockets have the same problem in confined spaces. I think he's talking about gyrojet rounds, which are essentially rocket-propelled bullets. They're stated out in the D20 Futuretech (not Future; that's a whole other book) supplement. But those wouldn't even exist because we wouldn't have combustion tech, and therefore would have no knowledge of how rockets would work. >_> No guns? No cars, planes, or anything else that works because of combustion... unless the setting is "magic-punk" or whatever you would like to call it.
green_girl 10-21-07, 09:21 PM	Let's just say i have really unquestioning players. :) They liked the idea of a hacking and slashing the DnD way in a modern setting, and I came up with this idea. I don't think they would ask why is this or that is still there when gunpowder is not even discovered. Yes, there are cars, electricity, everything. Just no guns, rockets, missiles and stuff. and if there were weapons better than swords and axes if gunpowder was not invented, what are they? Microchip-based weapons or something? Any ideas?
taradusis 10-21-07, 09:38 PM	Suppose the catholic church was strong enough to impose a ban on guns?Feudal japan banned guns for awhile.Advances in repeating crossbows would take place,modern compound bows have a higher pull.Maybe every country would have Katana or Drusus technology?Would kevlar armor be developed or Ceramic like Starwars Stormtroopers.Random thoughts
Fireclave 10-21-07, 11:29 PM	Yes, there are cars, electricity, everything. Just no guns, rockets, missiles and stuff. and if there were weapons better than swords and axes if gunpowder was not invented, what are they? Microchip-based weapons or something? Any ideas? Railguns are a recent reality. In a world with no combustion, such technology might have been developed earilier.
Dog_O_War 10-22-07, 12:11 PM	Gun powder is too huge a technology base to get rid of. To do so would be like getting rid of soap, which without that we would not have even half the population we have today. Gun powder alone is respossible for so many construction breakthroughs that without it we would not be where we are today. this would set us back 500 years worth of developement. Besides, other ranged weapons, specifically air-rifles would take the place of the gun. These were popular and deadly when the first firearms were being developed. These (today) are still deadly weapons because of their range, silent-firing mechanisims, and kill-potential. I don't mean to rain on your parade but without guns (and the advancements they have developed) we would not be where we are today. Also, we would not have an effective means to combat machines of war; think of the sherman of WWII with the flail (a rotating device set on the front of the sherman to clear minefields - and give infantry a very bad day). What could infantry with no effective explosive weapons do against such a thing? And no, a uranium katana wouldn't do crap against it, or any melee weapon for that matter; physics is on the side of the tank. No matter how uber the melee weapon design is (save for maybe a mono-blade, but that technology base is at least 50 years away) no amount of human force is enough to cut through an inch of steel (at least without some sawing action - but that means you gotta be there for more than 6 seconds). It is fortunate though that your players are blind followers when it comes to the games you run, for this is the only way that your setting would hold water.
Amon_V 10-22-07, 12:36 PM	Well, if Gunpowder didn't work, I suppose that humanity would just find a chemical alternative to get it to work. Not a big deal. But lets get beyond that and assume that launching bullets doesn't work. @ Amon's Tool Kit: What we are talking about aren't tools anymore. Chainsaws and Torches are going to heavily weaponized, they won't be the familiar tools that we use today. The Chainsaw would have a stronger engine behind it and a sharper, more reliable blade, possibly with the use of industrial grade diamonds. A torch would functionally be a lightsaber--though perhaps a shorter one--with incredible damage output and a limited life due to gas consumption. A tiny rocket pistol is entirely viable, I believe a weapon on that design was first created in the 1950s, by modern standards it would be dominant. The Modern variation would be to put a microcomputer on each bullet for maximum impact. I maintain that lasers, already in heavy use in industry and laboratories, would have seen military usage in a counter-factual history. A couple other weapon designs: Combustion Ballisita: Let's face it, the internal combustion engine offers far more power than could have been had in the middle ages. Attempting to harness its power in the form of springs and massive launching of objects leads to either a miniaturized and highly deadly man-portable model, and a vehicle mounted Acid Spraygun: The potential to spray lethal chemicals is as simple as a pump and good old fashioned pressure differences. In addition, an Acid Spraygun is resistant to other acid attacks. You still get lethal results at range, without the blowing yourself up part. Beware of friendly fire, however.
JackSnape 10-23-07, 06:30 PM	Let's just say i have really unquestioning players. :) They liked the idea of a hacking and slashing the DnD way in a modern setting, and I came up with this idea. I don't think they would ask why is this or that is still there when gunpowder is not even discovered. In my experience you should not wait for questions to come from players, you should be ready with an answer. You say "not discovered", but gunpowder could simply not exist, or be too volitile in your world. There could be an international ban on it or a religion that preaches against it's use has become the most powerful force in the world. Don't forget that you'r the DM you decide, don't let these guys tell you what makes sense, just make sure you're players can believe it.
Delfedd 10-23-07, 09:25 PM	I actually think that this idea is quite a cool one. if you set it in a D20 modern-like world, you can make the catholic church decry guns as tools of evil, with no redeeming value. This evidence is corroberated by the occassional demon weilding a flintlock rifle.
taradusis 10-23-07, 11:28 PM	You could give everybody kinetic energy shields like in the Dune series.This makes it difficult to use bullets or arrows.It also deflects some sword and axe blows,this would lengthen combat.The shield won't work against artillery shells?
Hochiu 10-24-07, 01:33 AM	While I agree with the idea that if humans couldn't have developed gunpowder they'd have found some alternate source of propellant, I also would like to bring about the possibility that it never occured to them, or that these humans didn't have the resources to develop that kind of technology. Its a fantasy setting, so it would be completely appropriate for any of that to happen. Also, I think focusing on weapons of elasticity would be amazingly fun. Portable rubber-band guns utilizng advanced systems to fire projectiles.