Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 04-25-08, 12:23 AM	So those orcs are at it again -- slaughtering human border towns. Raping human men, women, and children. Looting. Taking slaves. You know the drill. So the Bolts of Heironeous are called into action, an order of paladins and accompainying support (clerics, wizards, warriors, a few rogues here and there, some commoners and experts in rear echelon positions, etc). They manage to kick orc butt in battle. A decision is made -- defending the border and repelling orc reavers isn't enough: they'll just be back in a decade. No, the orcs must be conquered: the solution solved on a more permanent basis. So the Bolts march in, kicking more orc butt, and in the end, find themselves in charge of a big swathe of orcish territory -- a bunch of orcish villages and caves, maybe an orc city or town or two, etc. This idea has had some persistent draw for me, so I thought I'd just brainstorm it a bit. It's not really a planned campaign -- more just throwing out some ideas. If any ideas occur to you, throw them in too. The Occupying Order -Paladin vs. "the rest" tension: occupying a territory filled with a hostile but nominally civilian populace leaves paladins in a precarious balance between unacceptable ruthlessness and unacceptable ineffectualness. Non-paladins within the order (such as warriors, clerics, etc) may be inclined to use unauthorized methods that they feel "get results," putting them at odds with the order. -Adaptation to new mission: typically, such an order is oriented toward war. The shift to gendarmerie-type duties of policing may require adaptation. Challenges include learning to speak orcish, learning to resolve situations with an economy of force, governing, "winning hearts and minds," etc. Many within the order may find themselves multiclassing when they level up to something better suited. -Mission Objectives: reform, subjugation, or extinction: reform is probably the most appealing, if most naïve, mission objective. Turn the orcs into a culture that can live at peace with its neighbors, in a long-term shift that will endure long after the paladins and the rest of the Order have left, being peaceful (or "militantly good" -- it's not like dwarves are best described as peaceful, really) of their own accord. Priorities might include creation of schools to educate the new generation of orcs (taking into account that bell curve of orcish intelligence is unalterably shifted just a bit to the left of the bell curve of human intelligence, even if an average venerable orc is slightly smarter than an average young human), increasing delegation of authority to orcish collaborators, re-initiating clergy of Gruumsh and such into new faiths, etc. Subjugation means ruling orcs on a more permanent basis. This could mean a human aristocracy ruling over orcish serfs, possibly in some form of encomienda system. Collaborative orcs may gain authority vis-à-vis their fellow orcs, but could not displace the authority of the humans. Orcs would generally be restrained (insofar as is possible) from taking classes like barbarian, cleric, etc, and would generally be guided into being experts, commoners, etc. Orcs could serve as manual laborers, peasant farmers, and other roles that put their pridigious muscle to good use. They would probably be given access to good medical care, be well fed, clothed, and housed, and be taken care if disabled, but would never obtain authority or autonomy beyond that of a minor supervisory position overseeing other orcs. The last, extinction, is the grimmest possibility, but could be the conclusion reached after the orcs prove sufficiently recalcitrant: perhaps orcs simply can't be reformed, or even ruled: it isn't just that they have a violent, cruel culture, but that their brains and hormones work differently, making them pretty much all natural sociopaths (a more extreme version of the "XYY" stereotype, even though it may not be applicable to real XYY men). Paladins, obviously, do not reach for genocide lightly, and simply riding throughout the country gutting every cowering orc in sight with a longsword isn't acceptable. What would be acceptable, though? What about gradual attrition -- each orc female is permitted one child, and then has a necromantic spell cast on her rendering her barren by a cleric or somesuch? Orcs are otherwise permitted, insofar as is possible, to live out their lives. Eventually, with perhaps a few dozen orcs left, maybe a single orc hamlet is preserved, under vigilant watch, with a population maintained. Or perhaps not. Or perhaps, as a quicker route, orcish reproduction could be halted entirely: some provision might have to be made for taking care of the youngest orcs once they become sufficiently elderly and have no younger orcs to help them out. Would this cozy genocide be able to pass -- just barely -- the stringent code of a paladin order, given the inherently incorrigible nature of orcs? Or would it be evil by their code? -How far to go in treading on the toes of orcish culture? Should Gruumsh-worship be banned entirely? Permitted, but no sacrifices allowed? Sacrifices permitted, but no humanoids: only animals? Humanoids okay, but only volunteers? Should consensual dueling be allowed (is it back home among the humans?)? Gladiatorial fights among orcish gladiators? What about animal bloodsports (cockfighting, dogfighting, etc)? What about orcish treatment of their female half? Should polygyny be banned? What about the paladins' notion of consensuality, abuse, etc? The Orcish Collaborators -Opportunists vs. Contingent Allies vs. Good Orcs: Three broad groups find reason to work with the Order. The first are sheer opportunists -- they see that the center of power in their land has shifted from orcish barbarian-warlords to the order of paladins, so they collaborate to obtain positions of authority: becoming town guards, Order-appointed mayors, etc. They don't care about the principles of their new occupiers, although they may be good at telling them what they want to hear. Contingent allies are more principled than opportunists, but still find reason to work with the Order. They have their own agenda, not really aligned with that of a bunch of paladins, but they weren't really satisfied with the old order either, and are tentatively at peace with the new one. For instance, a group of Erythnul-worshipping orcs may have endured oppression at the hands of the dominant Gruumsh-worshipping clergy prior to the Order's conquest. If the Order wants to crush a Gruumsh-inspired revolt, they'll be eager to sign on. If the Order wants to convert Orcish society into a peaceful culture, though -- they're not so enthusiastic about that. Lastly, the rarest group of collaborators are truly good orcs. They generally had a somewhat similar outlook as the Order before the Order even arrived -- although they probably weren't identical culturally, didn't worship Heironeous (or whoever the paladin order worships). They will work earnestly with the order in an attempt to transform orcish culture toward goodness -- but if the Order begins to grow complacent with their status as masters and overlords, and begins to prefer the idea of keeping them in permanent subjugation, let alone extinction, they could turn against the Order more quickly than the pure opportunists. The Orcish Resistance -The remnants of the "old order" (old chaos?) -- clan warlords, priests of Gruumsh, orcish adventurers who get their loot by "cleaning out" human settlements, etc, -- are some of the most obvious resisters to the occupation. Obviously, these guys already fought the order, and lost, since they constituted the bulk of organized resistance to the paladins' invasion prior to the established occupation. Some of the old leaders may already have been captured, killed, or surrendered. Still, some may be around, hoping to get things back to how they were. -Contingent enemies. These are the same orcs as the contingent allies, but on days when they're not in a good mood. As an example I mentioned the possibility of a group of Erythnul-cultists orcs working with the new order to crush Gruumshian resistance. How long do you think that's going to work out. -New orcs: they want to get the Order out, but don't want to restore the old one. They may regard the fact of the occupation itself as an indictment of the old order -- it failed, so why go back to it if the Order can be expelled? Some might hope to create a more centralized, efficient orc state that could beat humans at their own game. These orcs also might have some more political savvy than the remnants of the old order. In addition to violent resistance, they might try unorthodox propaganda-oriented moves, from civil disobedience and hunger strikes to spreading mendacious rumors of atrocities committed by the order and its collaborators. Campaign ideas: -A powerful local orc, chief of a small town, is in a tentative, neutral position with regard to the Order. The PCs are on a mission to sway the chief toward support. The chief is willing to negotiate, but has his own demands in exchange for support. Some might be demands for gold of magic items, or that a road be built from his village to a port to improve the economy. Others might be to clear a nearby cave where his great-grandfather died on an adventure fighting aberrations, and recover his bones for a proper burial and any items he might have had as heirlooms. Others might be less savory -- perhaps that his own enemies among the orcs (perhaps even other allies of the Order) be taken down. -The PCs are part of the order. One has been granted status as an encomendero over an orcish village. Most of the orcs fighting-age males died or were captured fighting the invasion, leaving young, the aged, and females, and the village itself was damaged in the fighting by fire attacks. Although the orcs of the village have been defeated thoroughly enough to accept the rule of the PC (unless he screws up too badly), the countryside surrounding the village is filled with rebel orcs, who raid the village for food and other supplies and kill those seen cooperating with the new regime.
Space_Dragon 04-25-08, 03:13 AM	Those are all very sophisticated ideas. Before I can offer any advice, however, you need to flesh out orcish culture and society a little better. Without knowing anything about your orcs, I can't offer advice.
Quenditar 04-27-08, 04:12 AM	I discussed the idea of taking up the white man's good humanoid's burden over lunch with some D&D buddies once. Unfortunately the idea didn't get much farther than "good luck, the rest of us will laugh at your paladin when the idea blows up in her face." If orcs are unwilling to assimilate into human culture, breaking them up into small communities and moving them into human lands while resettling orc territory with humans might be the alternative.
Roog 04-27-08, 09:43 AM	The most obvious tactic is subjugation and forced conversion, as seen in many historical examples.
katarl 05-02-08, 07:10 AM	Going for parallels with the real world are we? I can see british imperialism, roman occupation, american slavery and even references to iraq here.
JulesCARV 05-06-08, 11:19 PM	Those are all very sophisticated ideas. Before I can offer any advice, however, you need to flesh out orcish culture and society a little better. Without knowing anything about your orcs, I can't offer advice. Hmm... I guess my view of orcs is that they're basically "orcs as in the Monster Manual, but extrapolated and fleshed out a bit." Everything that the MM says about orcs is basically true, but that's too little to go on, so there's more as well. -Orcs are not inherently chaotic evil aligned, as a matter of biology. However, they do inherently have tendencies toward violence, aggression, and domineering behavior, and inherently show little inclination toward compassion or cooperation. There is individual variation, of course. Although this is a bit too "scientific" an explanation for D&D, the best way I've thought of phrasing it is: orcs are kinda like humans, but they have more of the violence/domination/aggression promoting hormones (like testosterone) and fewer sympathy/bonding promoting hormones (like oxytocin). Well, one needn't actually use such a pseudoscientific explanation, but at any rate, that's the idea: they're not inherently CE, and a lot of their evil behavior comes from their evil culture, but there's a biological basis too, if not of evil, at least of some behaviors widely considered antisocial. -Culturally, orcs have two dominant sources of authority: the clan system (headed by chiefs (usually barbarians, sometimes fighters, warriors, etc)), and the faith of Gruumsh (headed by priests (usually clerics, sometimes favored souls, adepts, etc)). These two sources of authority are often in some degree of conflict, but overall, the faith of Gruumsh reinforces the clan system (priests legitimize chiefs, give them blessings, etc), and the warlords are generally at least nominally (and sometimes fervently) Gruumsh-worshippers, and respect the priests in religious matters. -In the clan system, honor is everything. Blood feuds among the clans continue endlessly; revenge is not merely a desire among the aggrieved, but an obligation for those seeking to retain their honor. (There is a custom by which feuds can be settled, through the assent of both clans, with the help of a third-party mediator. In addition, councils among delegates from all local orc clans are sometimes called (on a roughly once-a-decade basis), to settle matters of honor with various payments and injunctions agreed upon by the majority of delegates while wiping the slate of blood feuds clean. However, neither really work in practice often, and feuds often quickly resume after having nominally been resolved.) Generally, the orc sense of honor calls for highly disproportionate revenge: "three of them for every one of us" is a widely accepted formula for revenge among orcs. Naturally, this exacerbates smaller incidents into wars. Other aspects of honor include the "purity" of a clan's females: female orcs' lives are under the control of clan chiefs and elders, who decide which male (within the clan or to an allied clan) they will be given to. If a female orc and a male orc from rival clans have sex, they're both killed (strangulation is most common). If a male orc from a rival clan rapes a female orc, it makes no difference (consent is irrelevant): they're both killed. Being a rape victim at the hands of a clan rival is a stain on the clan's honor which death can cleanse. (If an orc female is in a relationship approved by her clan elders, the concept of rape doesn't even really exist within the relationship.) Homosexuality is an abomination to orcs. Lesbians, as per the honor system, are generally strangled to death if discovered. Gay males of low status are generally treated similarly. High status gay males, such as gay clan chiefs, can usually get away with what they want (as with straight clan chiefs' relationships with female orcs, they are not too picky about whether their lower-status male partners consent.) Another important aspect of clan honor is the guest/host relationship. Guest and host must never betray each other: even if a host finds that his guest is a wanted criminal, so long as the guest is a guest, the host is obliged to protect him. Some orcish folktales tell of orc heroes who, when hosting a guest, discover that the guest has killed someone dear to them (such as a brother). The acute tension between the demands of guest-host honor and the demands of honorable vengeance often drive such stories. Honor is obtained by success in combat, against other orcs and against other races. Adventurer is one of the most honored occupations among orcs. Orcish adventurers travel to human, elven, goblin, or other settlements, in teams of barbarians, clerics of Gruumsh, rogues, and sorcerers, slaughtering those they find indiscriminantly, seizing whatever valuables they can, and enslaving those they can to take back as valued slaves. Veteran orcish adventurers have gruesome trophy rooms filled with the impaled, tarred heads of formidable human knights, the honey-preserved corpses of elven wizards, and other trophies. Loss of honor by failing to adhere to these codes effectively turns a clan or individual into "fair game" in the eyes of other orcs or orc clans. Someone whose honor is agreed to have been lost no longer requires being avenged by his clan if he is killed. Honoring any alliances or truces with a dishonored clan becomes strictly optional. A clan or person considered to have lost his honor is unlikely to survive long before his lands, goods, and females are taken and partitioned among other orcs, and males enslaved, killed, or sent into vagabond exile. -The Faith of Gruumsh is somewhat in conflict with the clan honor system, because the faith of Gruumsh regards orcs as the chosen race, destined to conquer the world. To this end, many practices mandated by the clan honor codes are counterproductive. Blood feuds waste orcish time and lives with conflicts among orcs, when they ought to be fighting and killing other races. The murderous misogyny of the clan honor system is likewise at odds with the Gruumshian faith's more pragmatic form of sexism, which regards honor killings as a waste of resources, and believes that female orcs should be kept alive and pregnant with more future warriors and breeders, not killed in the name of clan honor and purity. Overall, the faith of Gruumsh's central credo might be summarized as "peace within the race, war against all others." Naturally, actual orcs, constantly at war with each other, fall far short of this ideal. Nonetheless, the priests of Gruumsh are hardly less clannish and fractious than other orcs, and they can be found on both sides of any reasonably large intra-orc feud. Still, the priests of Gruumsh sometimes attempt to put a moderating influence on intra-orc feuds, which sometimes puts them in conflict with clan chiefs who seek to preserve their honor with massive and disproportionate revenge for any slight. The Faith of Gruumsh generally demands blood sacrifices. Animals suffice. Humanoids are better. Orcs who commit crimes against the race are also considered good sacrifices (volunteering to be sacrificed is a highly pious form of atonement, and is considered to wipe away an orc's crimes in Gruumsh's eyes, but the priests of Gruumsh have no problems forcibly sacrificing condemned orcs if they do not volunteer.) -Orcish culture is generally bloodthirsty. Gladiatorial fights, among slaves and among orcish volunteers spoiling for a fight, are a common form of entertainment. Animal-oriented bloodsports, such as dogfights and cockfights, are also common as a cheaper, more casual form of entertainment. The most obvious tactic is subjugation and forced conversion, as seen in many historical examples. Hmm... the problem is that many historical examples of "subjugation and forced conversion" obviously wouldn't be up to the moral standards of paladins. There might be a few examples, though. Going for parallels with the real world are we? I can see british imperialism, roman occupation, american slavery and even references to iraq here. The trouble is finding a "good" example -- good meaning good-aligned. The postwar allied occupations of Japan and non-Soviet-zone Germany seemed fairly enlightened. Some might argue, though, that that was only possible because the Japanese and Germans' will to resist had been broken by the brutal tactics of the allies which inflicted immense suffering on civilians (i.e., nuking Hiroshima, firebombing Dresden). Even if the technology (or similarly devestating magic) existed to inflict that sort of devestation, I doubt a paladin order would keep the equivalent of Bomber Harris around for long. Another issue is that the Japanese and Germans had functioning states with orderly bureaucracies and such that the allies could co-opt. Another is that Japanese and Germans are all humans, and thus probably had more inherent potential to go beyond savagery than orcs. Another issue is that at a cultural level, Japanese and Germans had recently lived in fairly open, peaceful, democratic cultures (Taisho Democracy, Weimar Republic), before the ascendency of fascistic regimes, something orcs would never have experienced in the recent past. UPDATE: I guess my big issue here is that this setting logically must exist in some form in D&D settings -- yet it seems like it just gets swept under the rug. 1. Humans and (evil) orcs fight each other. If orcs win, goto 2. If humans win, goto 3. 2. Humans are looted, slaughtered, enslaved, and raped by orcs. Orcs live a nice life as slavemasters for a while, gradually killing off their slaves through maltreatment, until they run out. Then they go on the warpath again to get more. 3. If humans are morally checkered to outright evil, goto 4. If humans are good, goto 5. 4. Humans might treat orcs as the orcs would have treated them -- enslavement, massacres, looting etc. Or they might force them to move away, slaughtering orcs where they're found and forcing the orcs to abandon the area, leaving it open for human settlement. 5. Okay. This has to happen sometimes. Humans aren't always morally equivalent to their orc adverseries. Even if they are, there are more solidly morally good types who fight orcs like dwarves and elves. So what happens when they win? This, #5, is what I'm trying to figure out.
Space_Dragon 05-07-08, 03:09 PM	Wow...your orcs are awesome! Mind if I steal them? Actually, there's no way you could stop me, so I'll steal them anyway. :D Believe it or not, I think conversion (forced or otherwise, probably some of both) would be acceptable here. My reasoning is as follows. In real life, there are no "evil gods." A religion can be evil, but there is always potential for change. If this is an Eberron-style world, the worship of Gruumsh could evolve (with or without the help of outsiders) into a more peaceful religion. However, assuming that this is a typical DnD setting (where the gods are real and actively influencing the mortal world), worshiping Gruumsh will always be a bad idea, because Gruumsh is an evil person. Short of getting the god himself to repent (which isn't likely), there's no way a person can be good and still obey the creed of Gruumsh. Now, consider this: if these paladins were epic level, and managed to penetrate Gruumsh's fortress in Acheron, would they kill him? If so, why wouldn't lower level paladins do the next best thing and rob Gruumsh of his worshipers, who serve as his instruments for wreaking evil in the world? Forcing an orc to renounce the worship of Gruumsh is no different from forcing a gangster to renounce loyalty to his syndicate. If you have a member of a violent street gang in custody, would you honestly be willing to put him back on the streets if he still openly pledges allegiance to his crime boss? This is one of those tricky situations in which DnD is not like the real world. Assuming that making someone stop worshiping Gruumsh is not, in fact, evil, the question is how the paladins would choose to do it. Fortunately, violence may not be necessary in this case. History shows that tribal societies fair very poorly in cultural warfare against civilized ones. Assuming these paladins are clever, they will try this tactic before resorting to harsher means. The best way to culturally assimilate the orcs would be to simply show them why its in their best interest to be assimilated. Why is it that these humans are so much richer and more prosperous than the orcs? Why are they able to field such large armies? Why are their foodstuffs so (comparatively) abundant? Why is their technology so much more advanced? Orcs respect strength and power above all. If the humans have militarily conquered them, what does that say about the respectability of humans? Basically, while being occupied, the orcs might realize that their traditions have been holding them back, not pushing them onward as they once believed. Of course, it would be blindly idealistic to say that all (or even the majority) of orcs would feel this way. Not naturally, anyway. That's why the human clerics of Heironeous (or whoever) show up to publically debate the priests of Gruumsh. The humans say that if the orc shaman can prove that the humans are not in the right, they will leave. Put the shamans on the spot. Make them explain why worshiping Gruumsh is better for the orcish race than switching over to Heironeous. Assuming the humans are halfway competent, they will always be able to refute these explanations, because Gruumsh really is bad for the orcs. Even with their intelligence penalty, it wouldn't take too much for any but the most devout orcs to figure that out. Most of these public debates will probably end with the orc shaman justifying all the savagery of their society by saying "it makes us stronger," to which the human will reply "explain, then, why we were able to defeat you?" The occupiers also should take advantage of the strong winner/loser dichotomy of orcish culture. Only the winners are happy in orcish lands, so why not appeal to the losers? Homosexuals and others who have "dishonored" their tribes are executed or banished? Okay then, start recruiting the exiles. All but the most stoically loyal of these castaways will be pretty disillusioned with orcish society. Why wouldn't they turn to the humans? Take into account that some non-outcast orcs will join the humans out of self interest and desire for power (as you mentioned yourself in the OP), and the orcs will never be able to figure out which of the collaborators are former exiles, and which ones are simply being smart. Thus, more and more discontented or ambitious orcs will come to willingly serve the occupying army, which is sure to crush the orcish morale (seeing so many of their own switch over might make them wonder if maybe there really is something to it). Many of the orcish turncoats will probably be interested in this mighty god who gives the paladins such power, allowing the paladins to turn them into orcish missionaries. This tactic (using a handful of converted locals to convert the rest of the tribe) has proven very effective when used by the Catholics in Latin America. I think it should work here as well. Granted, the orcs who were most invested in the old ways (the clerics, the chiefs and warriors of the more dominant tribes, etc) are likely to fight until their dying breath. But plenty of others (malcontents, dishonorables, orcs from historically weak and subservient tribes) will jump at the chance to improve their lot in life. And really, if improving their lot requires worshiping a different god, who besides the shamans and their close confidantes will care? The paladins can play on the power struggle between orcish secular and religious authority; make the chiefs into good guys and the shamans into bad guys. Bring in bards to encourage public sentiment in the direction of their choice. Eventually, some of the more cooperative orcs can be brought on (well guarded) tours of the human kingdom, letting them see the miles of farmland, gigantic stone fortresses, and lavish temples, where you don't have to live in constant fear of revenge/honor killings. Then, let these orcs tell the rest about what they saw. Basically, there is nothing about paladinhood that stops you from being manipulative. Play the orcs like a chessgame. It will probably take a few generations, and some orcs might refuse to succumb and get themselves exhiled, but paladins subscribe to the John McCain School of Imperialist Thought; if it takes a hundred years to make the orcs into good neighbors, then that's how long they'll occupy them. Over the course of those hundred years, human priests and warriors will start to really settle in. They'll build farms, and hire orcs as fieldhands. They'll look for ore deposits, and hire orcs as miners. Orcish economy becomes dependent on the humans. Humans marry and have children in these new communities. Eventually, there might be human/orcish marriages, resulting in the ultimate symbol of assimilation; the half orc. When half orcs start inheriting ownership of the farms and mines, and then taking full orcs as mates, the cultural war will effectively be over.
Drackthor 05-07-08, 05:24 PM	*snip* Your post talks about personal biases about politics and religion, I'd suggest an edit before the moderators take action. Fantastic thread by the way, I can never get enough of Orcs, personally!
Space_Dragon 05-07-08, 05:33 PM	Your post talks about personal biases about politics and religion, I'd suggest an edit before the moderators take action. Huh? The closest I came to being controversial was when I mentioned that there aren't inherently evil religions IRL. That's pretty PC, I think. Do you mean the part about tribal cultures often losing the culture war? If so, I can point you to enough historic examples of this to prove it isn't just my opinion.
JulesCARV 05-18-08, 10:42 PM	I had been meaning to reply to this thread, but I got distracted. Anyway, thanks for the input, Space_Dragon. Definitely some cool ideas. Drakthor, I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to in SD's post. I like the approach of asking "well, if Gruumsh were some kind of clan chieftain and he had been so thoroughly humiliated and discredited by outsiders or a rival clan, you wouldn't keep him as your chieftain, so since as a god, he's lead your whole race to humiliation, why would you keep worshipping him?" Probably best to have that message delivered by orcs who are subtly supported by the humans (without being directly in human employ) rather than having humans deliver that message themselves -- having humans say it might lead the orcs to freeze up and say "we're never going to let some human tell us who to worship" and block out the message the Gruumsh isn't worthy even by his own standards. I'm thinking my approach to deities is somewhere maybe halfway between FR and Eberron -- basically, deities, as per the PHB rules, are fixed in what alignment clerics they have, what domains they grant, their portfolio, etc. However, it's sort of a passive system -- being a good cleric and worshipping Ehlonna is more like being tuned into the right radio station than like making a deal with Ehlonna personally. If you become neutral or evil, you wouldn't lose abilities because Ehlonna is personally mad at you for disobeying her -- it's more like your "alignment radio" is no longer tuned to the right "divine frequency." (These are not in-game terms -- just similes used for illustration.) Gods might intervene, such as by choosing a prophet with whom they communicate on a personal level, but this is a once-in-a-millenium (approximately) occurence. Whether the deities are physical beings who could be killed at all is something of a mystery -- there are verified histories of chosen mortal prophets, and fuzzy, legendary myths of divine avatars, but no remotely credible claims of actual deities walking around. The gods don't keep their worshippers clearly briefed and up-to-date about their views, so different clerics of the same deity can disagree about the deity's will. Still, a CN cleric won't find himself able to receive divine powers from Wee Jas, so there are limits.
JulesCARV 05-23-08, 06:57 PM	Another issue I hadn't really thought of: what about those outside of the Orclands or the Bolts of Heironeous (or whatever the order is called)? I could imagine some of the not-so-paladinly humans on the border towns that have previously been attacked by the orcs (the initial provocation for the paladins' invasion of the Orclands in the first place) saying "these paladins are wimps! Don't they know orcs are scum who will never change? We should go in and kill them all." Then a few unofficial militias and adventuring parties might organize to try to re-invade the Orclands and kill any orcs they can find. That might put the human paladins in an awkward position of defending their new orc subjects from human invaders, while explaining that, no, no, the Bolts of Heironeous weren't involved in any massacres, it was a bunch of other humans who killed a bunch of defenseless orc civilians! (Of course, if such invasions provoke the occupied orcs into rebellion because they're afraid that human occupation will mean death for all of them, so much the better for humans who want to see the orcs all killed -- and if those wimpy paladins die as they try to crush the orc rebellion, they were pretty useless anyway.) Or you could have "naïve peacenik" type humans saying "leave the orcs alone and stop trying to tell them how to live their lives, you imperialist racist paladin fascists!" I find that less likely, since not many humans would put up with orcs brutally raiding them periodically, as they did before the invasion. Then there are the questions of what orcs outside of this orcish domain might think, what some random elven confederacy says, how some dwarf kingdom might be involved, what about the kobolds, etc.
JulesCARV 06-22-08, 02:48 AM	Any ideas for prominent NPCs that could spice things up? An attempt: General Adein Welmarl -- human paladin 5/rogue1 4. Adein is a veteran warrior of the Bolts of Heironeous, well into middle age. While he fought for the Bolts in their invasion of the Orclands, his most favorable attributes are not his combat prowess, but his command of logistics and governance. As such, once the main armies of the orcs were crushed, and the Bolts of Heironeous's task changed from invasion to occupation, he was promoted from a staff position managing supply lines to commander of the mission. He is a fit, trim, man, slightly less than six feet tall, with a neat, salt-and-pepper beard, light brown skin and a receding hairline approaching the middle of his head. In the first days of the occupation, Adein requested clear mission objectives from the High Council of the Bolts of Heironeous regarding what he is to do in the orclands beyond occupying the territory, but they were not been forthcoming, besides directionless orders to keep the peace. The higher-ups in the Bolts seem to be conflicted and uncertain about how they would deal with their orc subjects. Eventually, he suggested his own mission objectives, and requested that he be allowed to pursue them. The High Council of the Bolts still stalled for a month, so he went over their heads to hierarchy of the Church of Heironeous itself, and his request was approved personally by the Salanid Caliph. Adein's objectives, at his own suggestion, were "to create an orcish culture and state oriented toward peaceful coexistence with her neighbors, in which the orcs shall engage in productive activities befitting their great physical strength and not excessively burdened by their mental limitations (such as building, mining and agricultural labor), in which all orcs shall have adequate food, clothing, shelter, and healing, as well as basic education (literacy and numeracy) taking into account their limited average educational potential, in which no group among orckind (such as females) shall be aggreived by unfair prejudice or domination, and under the perpetual guidance of Our Lord Heironeous, Peace Be Upon Him." Many believe these objectives to be ludicrously optimistic. Others regard them as putting orcs in a perpetual state of menial servitude. Adein has, at any rate, been struggling to achieve his sweeping agenda, but nonetheless works tirelessly for it, his time split between suppressing orcish rebellion and sabatoge and attempting to lay the foundations of this new state, building schools, roads, and clinics. Adein is a patient, methodical man with an even temperament. One member of the Bolts of Heironeous quipped that "before he smites evil, he always writes a two-hundred page 'preliminary assessment' of the possible consequences of and alternatives to smiting." While an exaggeration, Adein does put more faith in technical expertise, reason, and knowledge than most paladins, and is less guided by intuition and righteous passion. Nonetheless, he is far from indecisive -- indeed, in his plans for managing the occupation of the Orclands, he has been far more decisive than most of the Bolts of Heironeous. 1. I think Unearthed Arcana feat rogue (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-rogue) would be best here. Ideal would be my homebrew gendarme (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=975943), but that might be a bit obscure. I'll see if I can think of some more later. UPDATE: Another: Ront son of Ront, the Lion of the Kultabrans -- Orc ranger 4/cleric of Erythnul 4 The Kultabran clan was a respected and feared clan, but the relationship between its chief and other members and the clergy of Gruumsh had always been frosty. When a human cleric of Erythnul, Delling Mokva, driven from human lands for his sacrifices, came to the Kultabrans, exhuasted and begging for shelter, Ront felt compelled by the orc laws of hospitality to provide it. When Ront inquired about Delling's past, the human was at first evasive, but over time, as he stayed with his orc hosts, he saw that it was a clan that was on the verge of apostasy, and that he could bring a powerful clan of orcs to his god. He revealed his faith and occupation to Ront. Ront was intrigued, and was eventually won over to the idea of abandoning Gruumsh in favor of Erythnul. The clan's warriors fell upon the clergy of Gruumsh in a surprise attack, massacring them. Ront declared his conversion before a clan gathering, and Delling began to preach and teach others of his faith. (Delling also requested a harem of orc females, claiming that mixed-blooded children would eventually make better clergy than pure orcs.) The other orc clans seized upon the Kultabrans' apostasy to declare them honorless. At first, the Kultabrans, in spite of having destroyed their clergy of Gruumsh and not yet having developed a clergy of Erythnul (besides Delling and two clerics of Gruumsh who had converted), and those of their clergy who escaped having defected to other clans, won several battles, but when Chief Ront himself died in battle, the tide turned against the Kultabrans. Leadership passed to Chief Ront's popular and gallant but militarily reckless cousin Dalk, who overextended the clan's forces in an attempt to simultaneously seize several fortifications of several different clans in a surprise attack, along with later subsequent poor decisions. Eventually, years later, Ront's son, Ront, lead a coup against Dalk, taking control of the clan, but by this time, the clan had been reduced to a nomadic band of less than a hundred orcs (and six half-orc toddlers and infans, Delling's progeny by his three wives), its territories seized and divided. Delling had by this time abandoned the clan, but Ront, having learned the faith from Delling, reinvigorated the clan's faith in Erythnul, uniting clan leader and high priest in a single personage. The clan proved militarily successful under Ront's leadership, and many who had written the Kultabrans off as a clan of the past contended with Kultabran raids. Ront son of Ront earned the nickname "lion of the Kultabrans." With the human invasion, Ront has not set aside his longstanding feuds with the clans who seized the Kultabrans' old territory, but he has made them a lower priority, and dedicated himself to fighting human occupation. As an experienced rebel leader, who had fought in guerilla fashion before the humans had come, he drew many orcs who had never before associated themselves with Erythnul worship to his side.
JulesCARV 07-11-08, 02:54 PM	Keyara Malkie the Orcslayer -- human warblade 6 An adventurer from the borderlands plagued by orc raids, Keyera had once hoped to be a tailor, raising her two children with her husband. Then the orcs struck, slaying her husband and her children alike. She herself lost her left eye to an orcish crossbow bolt as she fled. She vowed vengeance, and sought training in the ways of the Sublime Way. With fierce determination, she learned the path of the warblade, and assembled a group of other adventurers to defend the borderlands and launch strikes against the orcs. She was jubilant when the Bolts of Heironeous finally took action and launched a full-scale invasion of the Orclands -- then sorely disappointed when she saw the aftermath. Convinced that orcs were an irredeemably evil race, she regarded the attempts of the order to rule the orcs as not merely futile, but destructive. If the paladins succeeded in creating an orcish society that was united and not plagued by constant infighting, which had an efficient network of roads, where orcs learned industrious efficiency in crafts from metallurgy to agriculture, then as soon as the paladin order left, the orcs would fall back into aggression and evil, but this time they would be far more effective and united than before. Keyara and her adventuring party are currently planning on infiltrating the orclands and launching assaults on orcish settlements, hoping to shake the confidence among orcs that the Bolts of Heironeous can protect them, while also insinuating that the Bolts themselves might be behind the massacres. While she is enthusiastic about the prospect of killing orcs in general, she also hopes that her efforts will trigger an uprising among the orcs, which would lead to far more orc deaths than she and her party alone might cause when the Bolts of Heironeous crush the rebellion.
Thane26425 07-11-08, 05:33 PM	The British managed to rule because they were dealing with humans, but even they didn't have an easy time of it. Most humans put up with the British as long as they were left more or less alone. It was when they got too pushy that they had real problems, although some locations were always more troublesome than others. Of course, this is a generality. Actual British Colonial history was very complicated. The orcs, as pointed out, are naturally evil and warlike. Any occupation would be one of constant struggle and fighting. The Bolts might find themselves losing popular support because of the taxes needed to keep the army in the field and the casualties. If the orcs managed a decent guerilla warfare campaign, the Bolts would have no end of trouble. My suggestion would be resettlement. Either push all the orcs out of the territory, which would simply move the borders further away from the homeland and would tick off the orcs. Another option would be to find some tribes and clans that would be willing to cooperate with the humans. That is, they would be willing to live onthe border and trade, a little, and serve as a buffer state. The humans would clear out the less agreeable orcs near the border, preferably by driving them away, and let the others move in. They would still have to be watched since you can't really trust them. This might work because smaller clans coule be brought in close to the border. They would need to cooperate with the humans so they didn't get crushed by the other orcs. I'm not saying that human armies should march out to defend the orcs if they were attacked because they aren't allies, just less dangerous enemies. Rather the new border tribes would serve to absorb the attack of any other orc tribe before it reached human territory, or when it did, it would be much weakened. Another option is to use strike teams to kill the leadership of a few of the orc tribes. That would send those tribes into civil war as factions fought for control. This would weaken them and cause other tribes to attack them as well. When the orcs caught on that powerful enemies could appear in their thronerooms and mess up the place at will, that should also serve as an incentive to leave the humans alone. Hunting parties could likewise be sent on deep raids into orc territory to pick off small groups. Either of these would force the orcs to spend more forces internally and have less time to think offensively. Long post, sorry about that. Cutting it short here.
taradusis 07-11-08, 06:21 PM	Now on my thread 771660 page 6, post #157 I discussed the need to control the birth rate of Orcs. The most important step in civilizing orcs might be to reduce population pressure? The creation of a priesthood that worships Law might be important as well. On page7,post 209 I discussed an exploitive relationship that humans might have with humanoids,building them an artificial ghetto and draining their population excess iinto a roman-like legion? Just some thoughts.
JulesCARV 10-23-08, 06:59 PM	Okay. I've been meaning to reply to this for a long time. I just haven't quite gotten around to getting my thoughts together until now. The British managed to rule because they were dealing with humans, but even they didn't have an easy time of it. Most humans put up with the British as long as they were left more or less alone. It was when they got too pushy that they had real problems, although some locations were always more troublesome than others. Of course, this is a generality. Actual British Colonial history was very complicated. The orcs, as pointed out, are naturally evil and warlike. Any occupation would be one of constant struggle and fighting. The Bolts might find themselves losing popular support because of the taxes needed to keep the army in the field and the casualties. If the orcs managed a decent guerilla warfare campaign, the Bolts would have no end of trouble. My suggestion would be resettlement. Either push all the orcs out of the territory, which would simply move the borders further away from the homeland and would tick off the orcs. Another option would be to find some tribes and clans that would be willing to cooperate with the humans. That is, they would be willing to live onthe border and trade, a little, and serve as a buffer state. The humans would clear out the less agreeable orcs near the border, preferably by driving them away, and let the others move in. They would still have to be watched since you can't really trust them. This might work because smaller clans coule be brought in close to the border. They would need to cooperate with the humans so they didn't get crushed by the other orcs. I'm not saying that human armies should march out to defend the orcs if they were attacked because they aren't allies, just less dangerous enemies. Rather the new border tribes would serve to absorb the attack of any other orc tribe before it reached human territory, or when it did, it would be much weakened. Another option is to use strike teams to kill the leadership of a few of the orc tribes. That would send those tribes into civil war as factions fought for control. This would weaken them and cause other tribes to attack them as well. When the orcs caught on that powerful enemies could appear in their thronerooms and mess up the place at will, that should also serve as an incentive to leave the humans alone. Hunting parties could likewise be sent on deep raids into orc territory to pick off small groups. Either of these would force the orcs to spend more forces internally and have less time to think offensively. Long post, sorry about that. Cutting it short here. First of all, I should clarify something. I'm not sure if there were any misunderstandings about this in the first place, but just in case, I thought I'd say: I'm not "on the paladins' side" here. I'm discussing a potential campaign, not speculating on how I'd act as a PC who is in charge of the human occupiers trying to achieve a good outcome. As far as I'm concerned, if there's a good potential story in the Bolts of Heironeous screwing up and having to leave and the orcish resisters emerging victorious, then I don't have a problem with the story going in that direction. After all, in many ways, the DM's job in a typical campaign is to make the bad guys threatening and to keep the good guys other than the PCs incapacitated in some way so that the PCs have to step in. Having the paladins botch the occupation of the Orclands would certainly be one way of doing that -- although that might be overstating the case. There's also plenty of story potential in the BoH actually succeeding. Anyway, I don't really see racial cleansing as fitting in with my concept here. Certainly, it's something many "normal" humans would do when faced with the circumstances. It's even something that I think would fit for a sort of "bunch of paladins face tough circumstances and end up betraying their ideals in desperation" type story, but that's not really what I'm going for. (I kinda want to avoid the "angsty fallen paladins" type route here.) In some ways, I think that the BoH giving it their best shot, failing, and then leaving in ignominious defeat while the various orcish factions struggle to control the lands is a story I'd rather work with than a "oh no! They assassinated clan chiefs and razed a bunch of orc towns who had formally already surrendered to them and forced the orcs to the outlands away from the border and lost their paladinhood!" type story. Now on my thread 771660 page 6, post #157 I discussed the need to control the birth rate of Orcs. The most important step in civilizing orcs might be to reduce population pressure? The creation of a priesthood that worships Law might be important as well. On page7,post 209 I discussed an exploitive relationship that humans might have with humanoids,building them an artificial ghetto and draining their population excess iinto a roman-like legion? Just some thoughts. Well, I don't really see it as a huge factor per se, to be honest. Humans in typical agricultural societies (between the end of the hunter-gatherer era and the industrial age) also typically reproduced faster than was sustainable when resources permitted. Once resource constraints didn't permit, higher infant mortality, increased vulnerability to starvation and disease, etc, generally restored the equilibrium. (At least, that's my understanding; some might dispute this simplistic Malthusian account of demographics from the dawn of the neolithic agrarian age to the dawn of the industrial revolution, but it's close enough for D&D work.) Orcs might have a higher birth rate than humans, but they also have a far higher homicide rate. It's not clear to me that orcs would have more of a "population problem" than humans. However, certainly the idea of a orcs developing a specialized niche within a mostly-human society seems sensible to me. Orcs could specialize in heavy lifting, mining, and as shock troops in wars, and generally leave architecture, wizardry, priesthood, commerce, etc, to the more-capable humans. Now, if an orc is intellectually gifted with 16 int, then she might become a wizard, designer, etc, but humans are a lot more likely to have 16 int than orcs. Eventually, humans being humans (and, for the most part, not exactly paladin-ly humans), this might develop in the long term into a more rigid racial caste system which does exclude, say, even a 16 int orc from becoming a wizard, but that's in the long term.