Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drizztrocks 11-13-07, 06:54 PM	I've been thinking about hosting a prehistoric campain for a while, though i'm not sure how to start it out. I'm not only going to use Dinos, but also have a primitive species of kobolds and a primitive species of the ant people, god knows what there called, I can never remember the names of anything in the MM. Anyway, I also need some basic setting, like a map of greyhawk or FR just in Preostoric times. I've been looking in the Dinosaur Menagerie, and have picked out a few things, but im up for suggestions, opinions ideas and such. :) ;) :) ;) :)
Tsochar 11-13-07, 11:11 PM	Savage Species has a feral template that could work as a basis for 'neanderthal' type subraces. Also, look for ways to expand upon the Survival skill, since that would be rather useful. Could you be more specific in 'prehistoric?' Do the characters belong to a tribe or are they alone? Is there magic? If so, how is it treated? Are shamans the main spellcasters or are there arcane spellcasters as well? Is magic something new? How 'edgy' do you want the tone to be, because they didn't have the concept of morals or alignment, with all that entails (some tribes wouldn't have thought twice about killing someone for reasons such as taking too much food) Elves and dwarves are described as the first races created by the gods, so they might have some semblance of culture. Disease would be more rampant, since they didn't have anything more than basic herbal medicines back then, so someone getting sick might form the basis of several adventures in some way or another. I'll try to think of more stuff.
JulesCARV 11-14-07, 03:25 PM	If this was pre-animal domestication, and pre-dense human populations, then diseases would actually be rare compared to those of an agricultural society.
echelon_house 11-14-07, 04:53 PM	It depends a lot on what you mean by "Prehistoric," since that obviously covers a lot of ground. It also depends on what plane you intend this to be taking place on - if it's one of the "standard" settings like FR, you're going to have to at least include early versions of all of the standard races. If it's meant to be earth, humans and dinosaurs never existed at the same time. If it's just a homebrew setting, what technological level is most widespread? Stone tools? Even that is a pretty blanket description of a whole range of different technologies that evolved throughout the paleolithic and neolithic eras (anthropology major here if you couldn't tell!) What plant and animal species have been domesticated, if any? Are most groups hunter-gatherers or horticulturists? Are they nomadic, semi-nomadic, or settled? I would strongly suggest doing some research on ancient societies if you want to make this really authentic. If it's not such a big deal, do whatever you think would be the most fun.
Tsochar 11-14-07, 06:18 PM	If this was pre-animal domestication, and pre-dense human populations, then diseases would actually be rare compared to those of an agricultural society. True. But one must remember that even so, there aren't any healers around outside of shamans and medicine-men, and they aren't guaranteed to have treatments. So in the face of a life-threatening sickness, (and they would exist, no matter how rare) there's really little that can be done, hence, finding a cure or something like that could make for a decent quest.
taradusis 11-14-07, 06:51 PM	Watch 1 million years B.C. with racquel welch.Consider giving out multiple characters within a tribe,these Npcs can only be played after main character dies.Check out dire animals as well as dinos.
Drizztrocks 11-14-07, 08:52 PM	Iv'e seen the movie many times, and I love it. I still think they should do a re-make. I noticed ive forgotten to give out one important part. I planned on the normal characters to have been teleported or walked through a portal into the prehistoric world. By prehistoric I mean the never ending fiction of dino's and cavemen. Im uping the need for the craft skill and survival skill. Im also planning on there bieng some kind of mysterious gorilla people, like in Sir Arthur Conan Doyls 'The lost World'. I just hope that cleared things up a bit. Well, im off to teh Dinosaur Menagerie. :)
JulesCARV 11-14-07, 09:03 PM	True. But one must remember that even so, there aren't any healers around outside of shamans and medicine-men, and they aren't guaranteed to have treatments. So in the face of a life-threatening sickness, (and they would exist, no matter how rare) there's really little that can be done, hence, finding a cure or something like that could make for a decent quest. Well, fighting off diseases in D&D is accomplished through 1) the heal skill, and 2) divine magic. One might claim that the heal skill is less effective -- say, taking a -2 penalty, or always being cross class -- because of less advanced knowledge at the time, but honestly, I don't know if there's all that much reason to think it would be. It seems to me that medical knowledge throughout history was all-but stagnant from prehistoric times until the enlightenment, and a mix of good medicines and patent ones existed in virtually the same balance throughout the era. I'm not sure that the doctors who bled people to restore humoural balance in the middle ages were any better, medically, than their antecedents ten millenia before -- maybe a little bit, but I don't know if there was a big difference. As far as divine magic goes, there's no difference there between prehistoric and regular D&D, with the possible exception of archivists and druids. Archivists probably wouldn't exist, since they're highly dependent on writing. Druids also might not exist, because it seems likely to me that their development was a reaction against to "modern" ways like metalworking, urbanization, etc, which is why they have oaths not to wear metal and the like. However, I don't see why clerics, rangers, paladins, adepts, spirit shamans, or favored souls would be any rarer than in conventional D&D. (Psionic healing is rather difficult to use to remove diseases, so perhaps it shouldn't be considered, but insofar as it's another source of potential disease fighting, I see no reason it would be different in frequency between normal D&D and pre-historic D&D) In short, I guess I'm just having a tough time grasping your argument. This isn't to say diseases wouldn't exist or anything, but there's no reason I can see to think they'd be worse than in typical D&D, and a few fairly minor reasons to think they might be better. Now, if disease is a big factor in your regular D&D games, then it might also be a big factor in your prehistoric D&D games, but I see no real reason to think that it would be a bigger factor.
Tsochar 11-14-07, 11:02 PM	Now, if disease is a big factor in your regular D&D games, then it might also be a big factor in your prehistoric D&D games, but I see no real reason to think that it would be a bigger factor. Neither do I. I just think there would be less availability in the way of healing. But look at it this way: primitive tribes often find local flora can treat certain ailments, but as nomads they would be less familiar with the local environment than sedentary tribes, and would have information on few if any herbal cures. As for divine healing, I wouldn't think that would be particularly viable or else every time a mountain lion came along and mauled a hunter half to death, a few beads and trinkets offered to the shaman would make him good as new. That would arguably go against the flavor of the campaign, which in my opinion would probably revolve around a survival theme. Now, the shaman might know a few rituals to speed up one's healing, or perhaps give them a little aid in fighting the disease, but as for first aid you must remember that such people have almost no knowledge of anatomy beyond the obvious, and they don't know how to clean a wound or set a broken bone. Archaeological evidence even indicates some tribes used sharpened rocks to open holes in the skull for treating ailments.
Space_Dragon 11-14-07, 11:07 PM	Savage Species has a feral template that could work as a basis for 'neanderthal' type subraces. Also, look for ways to expand upon the Survival skill, since that would be rather useful. Could you be more specific in 'prehistoric?' Do the characters belong to a tribe or are they alone? Is there magic? If so, how is it treated? Are shamans the main spellcasters or are there arcane spellcasters as well? Is magic something new? How 'edgy' do you want the tone to be, because they didn't have the concept of morals or alignment, with all that entails (some tribes wouldn't have thought twice about killing someone for reasons such as taking too much food) Elves and dwarves are described as the first races created by the gods, so they might have some semblance of culture. Disease would be more rampant, since they didn't have anything more than basic herbal medicines back then, so someone getting sick might form the basis of several adventures in some way or another. I'll try to think of more stuff. Primitive humans had no sense of morality and were constantly plagued by unstoppable diseases? This level of failure is simply unacceptable. Please refrain from making historical statements unless you know what you are talking about.
Tsochar 11-15-07, 12:07 AM	Primitive humans had no codified system of laws, and they had barely more than an animalistic sense of community. They had a rough idea of what was good for the tribe, and a rough idea of what was bad for the tribe. Consider the following analogy: A mouse can navigate a maze, but it doesn't have any concept of what a maze is. In core D&D, we have cultists sacrificing humanoids and paladins crusading against any evil they encounter. Early man didn't correlate such patterns into abstract concepts. Hence, they had no concept of morals or ethics, they just did what they felt was good for the community. That's not to say they were without morals, amoral, or evil, they simply didn't associate 'good' and 'evil' conceptually as we do today. Another thing: cultural taboos we have in the western world that have made their way into D&D core weren't developed at that point in time. Humans are naturally polygamous, but our culture now forbids it. Sexual consent in prehistoric times was never considered until they formed some semblance of more solid customs regarding relationships. Tribal humanoids in MM are overwhelmingly classified as 'usually (L/C/N) evil.' My point is, given the rigid alignment system used in D&D, prehistoric tribes would tend more towards evil than default core societies. Please refrain from misinterpreting posts. Please read my other posts which clarify and partially rescind my latter comment.
Space_Dragon 11-15-07, 01:05 AM	Primitive humans had no codified system of laws, and they had barely more than an animalistic sense of community. They had a rough idea of what was good for the tribe, and a rough idea of what was bad for the tribe. Consider the following analogy: A mouse can navigate a maze, but it doesn't have any concept of what a maze is. In core D&D, we have cultists sacrificing humanoids and paladins crusading against any evil they encounter. Early man didn't correlate such patterns into abstract concepts. Hence, they had no concept of morals or ethics, they just did what they felt was good for the community. That's not to say they were without morals, amoral, or evil, they simply didn't associate 'good' and 'evil' conceptually as we do today. Another thing: cultural taboos we have in the western world that have made their way into D&D core weren't developed at that point in time. Humans are naturally polygamous, but our culture now forbids it. Sexual consent in prehistoric times was never considered until they formed some semblance of more solid customs regarding relationships. Tribal humanoids in MM are overwhelmingly classified as 'usually (L/C/N) evil.' My point is, given the rigid alignment system used in D&D, prehistoric tribes would tend more towards evil than default core societies. Most of the things you mention are equally true of the classic and medieval periods on which most DnD settings are based. The rest simply aren't true at all. If you analyze most ancient civilizations (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, etc) objectively, I doubt a single one of them would not be evil by the DnD definition. Slavery, forced prostitution, rigid caste systems, horrific classism, and human sacrifice have been the norm for almost all of human history. If DnD can portray a medieval or classical society in a neutral or good light, it can do the same for prehistoric ones just as easily. Also, your points about primitive humans having only rudimentary concepts of group survival are just silly. Most hunter-gatherer societies have very complex systems of ethics (whether or not they coincide with our own), and some primitive societies are every bit as legalistic as developed ones.
Delfedd 11-15-07, 08:39 AM	As a point of interest, humans are actually far less healthy with the advent of medicine. Neanderthals as feral? Bad idea. Neanderthals actually have bigger brains than we do. I do agree that battles against beasts should be a large part of the campaign. but it can't be all of it. Perhaps one of the major plots is that one tribe invents writing (or the basic idea behind it) which allows them to keep track of far more resources, gathering tribes around them for miles. The start of an empire or something, and the players must defeat it. Remember that in a prehistoric campaign there still has to be a plot. It can't be like "oh, we're prehistoric" which is what i see very often.
taradusis 11-15-07, 07:43 PM	If you have Savage Species the Anthropomorphic ape men are good as mysterious gorillas?If you read Edgar Rice Burroughs,why not consider Pellucidar as a setting?I would use illithids in place of Mahars and the plot would revolve aroound uniting the tribes against the Mindflayers.The Apemen would be Sagoths in this type of scenario.
Drizztrocks 11-15-07, 09:52 PM	If you have Savage Species the Anthropomorphic ape men are good as mysterious gorillas?If you read Edgar Rice Burroughs,why not consider Pellucidar as a setting?I would use illithids in place of Mahars and the plot would revolve aroound uniting the tribes against the Mindflayers.The Apemen would be Sagoths in this type of scenario. i really like that idea. I think i might use it, though ill keep looking.:) thx
Darth Sephiroth 11-15-07, 10:01 PM	Frostburn has several things that are great additions for such a setting. Neanderthals are the first, and are pretty playable. There is also a feat that could work as a replacement for scrolls if you want casters that rely on them around. Unearthed Arcana also has several things that can be used such as the Wilderness Rogue and several other variants. Also remember that a lot of the deities would be either very different, or probably non-existant in the past. Also a lot of equipment wouldn't be around, requiring modification that could change depending upon how you see the setting. Dawn of the Copper Age would probably be a nice setting for allowing some of the best equipment to be made of Copper while most are made of bone and stone.
Tsochar 11-15-07, 10:38 PM	Most hunter-gatherer societies have very complex systems of ethics (whether or not they coincide with our own), and some primitive societies are every bit as legalistic as developed ones. That is true for today's tribal societies. Back before they evolved more humanlike brains, however, they wouldn't have been much more advanced than animals in that area, though then again I might be underestimating the speed at which sentience developed in evolutionary terms. And as for neanderthals having larger brains, notice I used quotations around the word 'neanderthal.' I didn't mean to imply that neanderthals were necessarily unintelligent, but that is the way most people understand it. Also, they were very heavily-built naturally, which at least partly fits in with the template.
Space_Dragon 11-15-07, 10:43 PM	That is true for today's tribal societies. Back before they evolved more humanlike brains, however, they wouldn't have been much more advanced than animals in that area, though then again I might be underestimating the speed at which sentience developed in evolutionary terms. Okay, sure, before they evolved humanlike brains, they weren't human. I don't think its possible to play a game as unintelligent apes. I assumed the OP wanted to make a meso/neolithic world.
Space_Dragon 11-15-07, 11:19 PM	Hey, delfedd and I just came up with some neanderthall racial stats (modified from a varient orc I designed). What do you think? Neanderthall -Medium humanoid. -Base speed: 40. -Low light vision. -Ability scores: +2 strength, +2 constitution, -2 dexterity, -2 charisma. -Skill bonuses: +2 Survival and Craft (woodcarving). -Cold endurance (+2 to saving throws against cold-based attacks and weather conditions). -Automatic languages: Common, Neanderthall. -Bonus languages: Any
Delfedd 11-15-07, 11:32 PM	Neanderthals are humanoids that live in the mountains and forests of (campaign world). They are adept at music and woodcraft, and have a very complex religious system. Each Neanderthal is quite adept with most spears and can make a quarterstaff faster than most humans or elves. Neanderthals used music originally as a way to comunicate without disruptive speach through the forest. Note that much of this isn't taken directly from the fossil record, it is extrapolated.
hstlr 11-16-07, 12:10 AM	Do not want to sound silly, but do you have Druids? Do you? C'mon. If there is Druid, he/she is SOOOO going to OWN the Neanderthal "society"...... Druids can heal(larger population), can track(auto win for hunting), can become a fearsome beast(something primitive humans most dread of), can summon beast(s)(PWNage toward hostile tribe, anyone?), can wreck havoc with spells(fear the unknown, disobedient primitives!), can tame wildest animal(again, unknown factor)......Every flavor druids have can kick some serious a$$, let me put into this way...... I do suggest the OP to Nerf the druid a bit...... That's your game, Your fun>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>RAW;) ;) ;)
Darth Sephiroth 11-16-07, 01:40 AM	Perhaps you could grab the Spirit Shaman instead of the Druid, and then go with the Favored Soul and some version of the Sorcerer while eliminating the prepared spells and replacing the Scrolls with Skull Talismans. The Paladin doesn't fit the setting, mainly because it's focus on a specific moral code that wouldn't work for a prehistoric campaign. The Monk does not fit at all. The normal Rogue is to city oriented and as such the Wilderness Rogue fills the same slot. The savage Bard does the same with the Bard. The Sorcerer could probably work better using the variant that gives an Animal Companion rather than a familiar. With the Ranger you could probably come up with a spontaneous progression for its spells.
Delfedd 11-16-07, 07:49 AM	Why wouldn't the paladin or monk fit into these societies? Paladins are simply people chosen by the gods, so logically, as long as there is one lawful good or lawful neutral or neutral good deity, there will be paladins. Of course, like all the other classes his weapon proficiencies will be different. And why can't the monk be the man (woman) who is struggling to keep the beast within himself under control? To use it to fuel the fire of his combat? (Also, druids can't automatically track)
JulesCARV 11-16-07, 04:07 PM	My personal idea is that paleolithic societies didn't have druids, because druids arose as a reaction to technological advances like metal working, agriculture, etc. Of course, they might have had clerics with "nature" oriented domains like animal, earth, etc, as well as spirit shamans, adepts, favored souls etc.
Darth Syntax 11-16-07, 04:41 PM	I'm not sure where you get the idea that druids are a reactionary movement Jules, not do I see why they would be necessarily against any aspect of civilization. Some might be, but it is by no means a necessary or even prominent part of the druid (as a class in the game, not as a member of a hereditary caste of priests among the celtic speaking peoples). If anything, druids could very well represent the underlying force of civilization. Here we have intelligent agents harnessing the non-human (and by extension, non-sentient) elements of the world and bending them to their will. The command plants and animals to do their bidding, and what is that but magical domestication, the very foundation of civilization? Further, druids make excellent animist priests, shamans, and things of that nature precisely because their particular skills and abilities are more in tune with a worldview that does not separate the gods and the divine from the world.
Ikyotojin 11-16-07, 06:45 PM	Point: HomoSapiens has exsisted witht he same size brain for 130,000 years. "History" is the point in time at which our ancestors developed writing, around 2700 bce. We've been using copper tools and weapons since around 4000 bce. Our ancestors were performing complex burial rituals before there were domestic sheep and goats and we started THAT about 10,000 bce. The notion that ethical and moral treatment started with "civilization" is completely out of context. Just because we no have the advantage of hindsight does NOT make our ancestors savage any more than the savage behavior shown in the modern world. Source: 20+ years of studies and a degree in early human history. I taught this stuff for a long time. Here's a good site to use for reference! http://www.sciencetimeline.net/prehistory.htm Anything before 10,000 we humans were nomadic tribes. Examples of the development would be the small tribal groups of the South American rain forests up until the heavy contact with western cultures in the late 1800's. The inclusion of magic is the REAL monkey wrench, to say nothing of distinct hard evidence of spiritual entities. It could be a fun game. I'd advise watching "Quest for Fire" and "Clan of the Cavebear" for more ideas.
Delfedd 11-16-07, 08:52 PM	That's right. In fact, Neanderthals had the first burial. Thinking about it, I would definately make druids into a prestige class.
JulesCARV 11-16-07, 09:04 PM	The main reason for my view of druids as arising in reaction to (not necessarily reaction againt, but reaction to) technological changes is that they are a special prohibition against wearing metal armor, which wouldn't make much sense in a society prior to metal working, and that they have their own special, secret language, which suggests they regard themselves as somewhat seperate from the rest of society. Of course, you could have druids in a stone age setting, but personally, if I were writing the history of a D&D world, I'd say that druids arose some time later in the bronze age or somesuch.
DragonicHeritage 11-16-07, 09:15 PM	First of all, I would like to say brain size has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. It does not even give a rough idea, generally speaking. It is the forebrain(thus, forehead) that controls intelligence, and social understanding, with other parts of the brain obviously controlling other functions. Neanderthals had a very low forehead, but they did have a large occipital bun(processes sight), so although they had a large brain volume, most of that was devoted to seeing. Neanderthals would resemble stripped down, primitive dwarves in DnD, for simplicity, maybe with low light vision instead of dark. Maybe change CON bonus for +2 STR and +2 DEX. I say dwarves because they lack bonus skill points to simulate lower INT without penalising, and the CHA negative to show less reliance on groups and speaking with voices than Modern sapiens. Also, we are not decended from Neanderthals. For the gorilla men, just use orcs. The barbarian class combined with feats such as diehard, endurance, toughness, can easily fit with the flavour of super-human toughness without the need for a CON boost. They could even be decendents of the paranthropines that died out in our world, but in yours their evolution converged with hom-(boards won't let me finish that), but also gained back the gorilla canines. Just give 'em Intimidate bonus is STR, not CHA if better. That's all for now, and good luck with your game! Oh, and I mean no offence to anyone.
Kelmourne 11-29-07, 09:00 PM	This has been attempted by Manyfist before and it was pretty good. His world was called Piannith if you want to check it out.
taradusis 12-02-07, 10:28 AM	I wonder if Fred Flintstone could be used?If you do a Barney Rubble impression will your PCs beat you over the head with a Player's Handbook?