Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Abbacabba 06-21-07, 04:14 PM	I'm hoping this topic is as interesting to others as it is to me. Its sort of parallel with the reasons I started the first "build a city" thread. Issue: D&D rules are %99.9 about PC's and challenges they face. It was born from a war game. To build a "living" world takes much work on the DM's part. And personally I've always taken issue on the NPC rules. To me they do not allow the world to function as presented in many campaign settings, nor does the standard D&D economy seem to fit when paired with day to day life of NPC's. Example of Issue: City XYZ is a "typical" setting for low level adventures. A small town with a few town guards, a low (1-3) level cleric or perhaps just 1-2 adepts. Perhaps a low level fighter as the leader of the town defense. Again "typically" this setting is found a few days travel from a major stronghold, thus the "hook" for the PC's is available. A monster(s) is causing trouble (EL 2-5), its too much for the town to tackle alone so they somehow engage the PC's to take care of it for them. Problem with example : Time and time again, setting after setting, we see written adventures hinge on the fact that many settlements are ill prepared to survive without the intervention of PC characters at just the right time. I think the world should either be devoid of all these types of settlements, or the game rules should somehow justify how small settlements can get along with out PC help. Proposal : If you would, help me re-design NPC rules that allow communities to exist without "constant" PC intervention. Rules that take into account day to day life and make sense. Voice your feelings, don't think you have to give solutions. Lets try and get a good list of "whats broken" then start to tackle "how to fix it" later.
Abbacabba 06-21-07, 04:30 PM	My issues with NPC's : 1) The standard XP system and levels do not work well. The rules seem to fit the PC view of the game but fall short when trying to make the whole world work that way. 2) The economy of a standard D&D city is almost entirely based around the wealth of PC's. It doesn't seem to work from a NPC's wealth level. Possible solutions: 1) People understand the "XP" system. They just accept the fact that to be a great wizard it either takes years and years of study, or you can obtain power/knowledge from killing monsters/bypassing traps/etc... 1) The XP system is only for PC types. NPC's do not use XP/Levels, but some other system. 2) The economy makes no sense and needs a complete rework. 2) Its just accepted that some people(adventurers) are loaded with gold and prices are inflated the moment you walk through a stores door.
Rockjaw 06-21-07, 04:48 PM	Do you want to go historical or with "just plain makes sense" type rules..?
Abbacabba 06-21-07, 04:57 PM	I don't think historical would work in a D&D world. Magic and the funky way things actually work completely, or should completely, alter the way society runs. I want "just makes sense", in respect to a D&D world.
Knute 06-21-07, 09:50 PM	The problem is that D&D is not built on realism but on mythic romanticism. The world is built for the enjoyment of your players - learn it, love it, live it. Other games are far better at realism. Adventures in D&D are mostly an exercise in genre and wish fulfillment. DM's like to play with their tin soldiers and really scream to have realism and life for their creation but without the players it all falls down. Good luck, as a DM I'm interested in what you might accomplish, but you'll come back to the tale as written for and presented to your players. You will always be sacrificing realism for playability - never more so than 1st level where your players are weak. K
Abbacabba 06-21-07, 11:26 PM	You will always be sacrificing realism for playability I'm not wanting realism, I'm just wanting a system that explains how a D&D world might actually work. While internally consistent the mechanics don't really allow for all the "small towns" scattered about in a world populated with monsters we all see in our games.
Knute 06-22-07, 12:55 AM	Good luck and more power to you.
Kesuk2k5 06-22-07, 07:07 AM	While wanting things to make sense is entirely reasonable, I think you're overshooting the estimation that adventures all include the scenario of a community hanging on by a thread dependant on the PC's involvement. This is an incorrect assumption; the only reason the adventure was written at all was for the PCs to undertake it. While the PCs might definately be a help to the people in need, they aren't the only forces acting in the world. Groups of NPCs their level and higher are always looking for work, but how many PCs would really enjoy it when the DM says "The townspeople needed your help three weeks ago, but then the other adventuring party solved the problem for them and you have no purpose here."? Adventures are written to give the PCs a way to get involved with them. So, basically, while it may seem that every small town NEEDS the PCs, they technically don't, but it's more fun when the PCs are the ones who DO solve the problem, slay the dragon, get the gold, and so on.
Heros_Backpack 06-22-07, 10:15 AM	Since the XP system is based on overcoming challenges of about the same level, I consider the ordinary people to gain XP this way: Farmers Joe, Tom, Dick and Harry all live in the same hamlet with their families and have a semi-friendly competition between themselves as to who can breed the best milk-cow, grow the most wheat/acre, raise the most lambs, make the best cheese/beer/bread etc. The farmer who wins the competition in each season gets XP for a challenge equal to his CR (150 for Com1). Assuming an average of 1 win a year, the group second level after approx 6-7 years. Craftsmen Joe, Tom, Dick and Harry do much the same, except that they live in a town and compete on the number of customers, best designed (insert craft product here), most attractive window display and so on. Moneywise, the best explanation for the prices that I've seen was in an early PHB. It basically said that it was based on the gold rush standard - so much money was pouring into the economy from adventurers that prices for everything career upwards. To stop the DM having to raise prices every few months, it simply assumed a saturation level of very high prices. That said, I've also found that commoners can quite often afford things providing they use the two resources that adventurers are generally short of - large nearby family/friend groups, and time. For example, a young couple can afford the materials for house and the wages of an expert builder with 5 years of saving, and if all their family and friends turn out and help (Aid another) the house will be finished in just over 2 months.