Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alyss 08-24-07, 06:24 AM	Is it possible to run a campaign where the only classes allowed are the ones from: Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, and Knowledge of Incarnum? Also, is it a good idea?
Radijs 08-24-07, 06:34 AM	Its possible. But wether its a good idea I don't know. ToB has the frontliner roles filled nicely. ToM can fulfill the role of arcane casters. But the shadowcaster is sub-par mechanically leaving you only with the truespeaker. Maybe some of the incarnum classes can pick up on healing and/or caster but I don't own the book so I can't say anything about that. I suppose you'll have to ask your players wether they'd enjoy a campaign like this.
Aneutralshadeofblack 08-24-07, 07:45 AM	But the shadowcaster is sub-par mechanically leaving you only with the truespeaker. The Truespeaker is equally subpar mechanically. Both can be rather easily fixed, though (see my sig for the Truespeaker, and I can provide a couple of links to possible Shadocaster fixes). As for running a campaign like this, yes, and I've been planning to do it for a while. It makes for something wonderfully different. There's a pretty clear Indo-Arab vibe coming from those books, and I'm convinced a setting based on mythological India (with the Indian pantheon) crossed with some Arabian Nights influence would be cool (that or wuxia, if you can find a way to justify ToM/Incarnum in Chinese mythology). After that, it's your call whether or not you'd want to run such a campaign, but I personally think it'd be fun to play something other than "white males save princess and kill dragon."
Alyss 08-24-07, 10:28 AM	Those shadowcaster links would be very helpful, thanks. And, wouldn't an easier truenamer fix be simply to lower the DC? Say, 10 + (target's HD x2). This means that a level 1 truenamer with Int 16 (and a maxed out truenaming skill) can pull off a truemaning check against an orc with rolls of 5, then 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 and finally 19 (assuming the DC is going up by 2 after each succesful check). Against a bigger orc (2 HD), the rolls need to start at 7 but continue on from there as above. Which seems alright to me. It's that extra 5 on the base DC which is a real kick in the teeth, especially when truemaner's need to utter defensively. What do you think? Also: how does the binder shape up? Is he powerful enough, or too powerful? And, what about the sneaky classes? Without the core classes we get no rogues, which is a bit scary (due to the lack of sneak attacks). Furthermore, none of the classes from ToB, ToM or MoI can trapfind like a rogue, which would completely cut out any magical traps from the campaign.
Radijs 08-24-07, 10:44 AM	Well using HD instead of CR can break up very quickly since HD does not progress at the same rate as CR for a lot of critters such as oozes and undead. Which get progressively more HD as they only get a marginal increase in CR. I've only played a binder once. They are a very unique class but I think the consensus is that its a balanced class.
Alyss 08-24-07, 10:57 AM	Ah, I was just using HD as an example. You're right though: a character's/creature's CR is a better number to use for the DC
Aneutralshadeofblack 08-24-07, 04:56 PM	Those shadowcaster links would be very helpful, thanks. The ideas I liked the most are here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=770166) and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?referrerid=406019&t=790453). Credit goes to their authors, and use whichever you prefer (one of them uses alternate magic systems from Unearthed Arcana, which you may not be comfortable with). And, wouldn't an easier truenamer fix be simply to lower the DC? No. Here's why: the problem with the Truenamer is double. There's the obvious problem of not being able to use Utterances at high level, but more importantly, there's a huge balance problem that arises from Uttering being a skill check. This means it can be boosted to the +100 or so range, meaning practically unlimited autocasting of Utterances. It was a nice shot at an alternate magic system by WotC, but it was, sadly, rather badly thought out, since it leaves the choice between being useless or over-optimising and being broken. The whole point of my fix is to remove the skill-dependency, resulting in the impossibility to optimise the roll. In exchange, the DC has been lowered so that it's no longer mandatory to optimise in order to play a Truenamer. Also: how does the binder shape up? Is he powerful enough, or too powerful? The Binder is actually a very good class. It's definitely the best thing in ToM. What's so awesome about the Binder is that it's very good by being balanced, not by being overpowered. Basically, it's supreme versatility all the while not being useless. I personally think it's awesome. And, what about the sneaky classes? Without the core classes we get no rogues, which is a bit scary (due to the lack of sneak attacks). Furthermore, none of the classes from ToB, ToM or MoI can trapfind like a rogue, which would completely cut out any magical traps from the campaign. You can always allow the Rogue, exceptionally. The Swordsage covers the finesse fighting aspect but not the trapfinding, true. You might also have a problem with diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html) (whoops; I accidentally linked to Rich Burlew's awesome revised diplomacy rules ;)) without a Face class - another thing the Rogue can handle very well (a Rogue doesn't have to be a thief or a conman - I plan on making a surgeon Rogue, maxing out Heal and Kn:Local).
Dog_O_War 08-24-07, 08:44 PM	None of the classes from those books are "sub-par" (well I can't speak for the classes from Incarnum, don't own it). All of those classes are if anything, overwhelming. One thing though; you have no "rogue" option. You may play the shadowcaster, swordsage, or even a binder like a rogue. but none have the ability to find and remove traps. For that I would suggest you also allow the ninja and the scout. With this type of game I think you'll find that staying single class is a much better option as most of the classes listed don't have the generic advancement that the fighter, rogue, and wizard have. NPC's will be your toughest challenge, as each one of these classes have a ton of options (spell wise) and people generally just aren't used to using them, making them mechanically difficult as well. It'll make for quite the game though. I will edit this post (or make a new one later on) as to why they are not sub-par.
Dog_O_War 08-25-07, 09:53 AM	Okay, now the edit on the above post of mine. Truespeech is most definately a powerful tool when maxed out (even for a non-truenamer), but does alright without having to go full bore and pimping out the skill. Yes it may seem like such a croc having to put skill points into a class in order to cast magic, but their is another class which reflects this aspect with a near perfect example; the rogue. In order for a rogue to disable traps, he must invest in the skill disable device (and if he wants to live to be able to disable them, search too; that's two skills he has to have). Now obviously comparing trapfinding with truename magic seems like the penny to the hundred dollar bill, but they both have a common sence (pun intended) about them; rarely will there be a DM who does not increase the CR of the traps the rogue has to disable as he advances in level, always pitting the toughest challenges against just a single skill. Another comparision also involves the rogue (and the other classes with the skill) which is use magic device and truespeech. This gives characters with the skill (u.m.d.) limited ability to cast spells and produce different magical effects, but is not true magic like the wizard of sorcerer possess. This is true of non-turenamers and the truespeech skill. If you're still not satisfied, then think of it this way; a wizard can cast spells with an 11 int at first level, but he simply wouldn't be a very good spellcaster correct? (and you're probly thinking "what kind of idiot would play an 11 int wizard?"). Well the same is true for the truenamer and truespeech. As for the shadowcaster; a very cool class that maintains a theme as it gains levels. As for being "sub-par", you wouldn't call an at-will-casting, supernatural-ability-having, hiding-and-moving-silently mage-with-no-armour-check-penalty "sub-par", would you? And if that hasn't conviced you, two words; Black Candle. Black candle is a seemingly simple enough power available to all shadowcasters, but it is their magic missile, so to speak. With concealment a near constant companion of the shadowcaster (as well as armour at the later levels), this class lack very little in terms of defence. And offence? too many excellent abilities to list (though they may seem 'weak' against constructs, elementals, and undead, their defensive abilities make up for this weakness. Besides, some classes just have their down fall creatures - like the paladin and anything powerful but not evil.) Unfortunately I don't have ToM infront of me as I write this post, so please forgive power miss-namings. Also, a note on the subject head of this post. Such a game would be very "magic" heavy, and truenamers with the only ability to heal would probably take a more religious aspect as (and again I say this without knowledge of what is in Incarnum), having crusaders pulling in the paladin role.
Aneutralshadeofblack 08-25-07, 07:01 PM	Truespeech is most definately a powerful tool when maxed out (even for a non-truenamer), but does alright without having to go full bore and pimping out the skill. Yeah, until the mid-high levels where you cannot mathematically succeed on the Truespeech roll anymore. As for being "sub-par", you wouldn't call an at-will-casting The Shadowcaster doesn't cast at will. That's the whole subparedness; the insufficient number of spells per day.
Dog_O_War 08-28-07, 02:05 AM	Now that I have the book back in hand, I remember what was so good about the shadowcaster. 1. unlimited fundementals (at 14th): which are supernatural abilities not subject to dispel or spell failure - these are at least on par with 1st level spells. 2. 16 of the 20 mysteries (the spell equivalents of the shadowcaster) are not subject to spell failure. 6 of them can't even be dispelled, porvoke AoO, or are subject to SR, which some are third level spell equivalents. They can cast a total of 36 mysteries per day at 20th, which is pretty close to a wizard (though a wizard gets bonus ones for ability score). 3. immunities: poison immunity?! Darkvision (great for humans!), no need to breathe eat or sleep? and I didn't even have to become a lich. 4. two good saves and a whack of survival skills (hide, move silently, spot, and intimidate for those rare days you do run out of magic) This class screams awesome without ever needing a boost. C'mon, Greater Flesh Fails ftw! As for the Truenamer thing; when is the last time you ever had a power word:kill spell or a lightning bolt actually work against a great red wyrm? I bet it is never without having to totally overhaul your wizard, right? That was just to get you riled up. Seriously though, you are right; I never realized it was that brutal as a truenamer. Maybe DC:20+CR is more appropriate?
Aneutralshadeofblack 08-28-07, 03:41 AM	Maybe DC:20+CR is more appropriate? As said above: no, because half the problem is that the skill-based mechanic is abusable. Hence making it skill-less. :P
Dog_O_War 08-28-07, 04:08 AM	All things are abuseable; I was just kinda glad to see something other than spells per day or spell points
Alyss 08-28-07, 10:23 AM	I'm going with the recharge magic, that fits the flavour nicely. As to truenamers: I think I'm going to cut them out entirely. They aren't really...dark enough. That's not quite what I mean, but I can't be bothered to think. I just don't feel that the flavour is quite right. Anyway, I think I've got a fix to the rogue problem anyway. For starters, Diplomacy is a class skill for plenty of classes (Binders and CCrusaders to name two). Trapfinding I will stick onto the class skill list of Sworsages and Shadowcasters, and give them the rogue's trapfinding ability as well. Or will that imbalance them? If it does, I could always run a nearly trap-free campaign And thanks agasin for all your help, the shadowcaster and truenamer fixes are very nice, as is the Diploacy fix. Cheers!
Dog_O_War 08-28-07, 12:51 PM	I wouldn't say it imbalances them, it's more like putting a spoiler on an airstream motorhome.