Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anuvrix 01-17-08, 09:41 AM	The idea for a Staff of Wish struck me not long ago, and it turns out that it can indeed be created. The power of the Wish spell, to be cast as a standard action from the staff 50 times. The power of this staff is nearly endless, and with the right combination of one or two wishes, it's charges can be replenished. I give you the Staff of Wish ________________________________________ _________________________ Wish: Carved of only the most rare and exotic woods, this staff allows use of the following spells: Wish (1 charge) Strong Universal; CL 25th; Craft Staff, Wish; Price 1,351,250 gp. ________________________________________ _________________________ Marvel at it's Magnificence. Now, i am here to discuss the implications of such an item. The fact of it's existence could cause wars, genocides, and many bad days for some people.
squidyak 01-17-08, 04:38 PM	The idea for a Staff of Wish struck me not long ago, and it turns out that it can indeed be created. The power of the Wish spell, to be cast as a standard action from the staff 50 times. The power of this staff is nearly endless, and with the right combination of one or two wishes, it's charges can be replenished. I give you the Staff of Wish ________________________________________ _________________________ Wish: Carved of only the most rare and exotic woods, this staff allows use of the following spells: Wish (1 charge) Strong Universal; CL 25th; Craft Staff, Wish; Price 1,351,250 gp. ________________________________________ _________________________ Marvel at it's Magnificence. Now, i am here to discuss the implications of such an item. The fact of it's existence could cause wars, genocides, and many bad days for some people. Keep in mind that in addition to the cost of creating the staff, the cost of casting wish must be paid 50 times. The same cost would have to be paid whenever it's "recharged." Doesn't really net the creator much benefit, other than not having to memorize a spell he most likely won't use do to the dangers. A much better option would be to create a couple one-shot wish items.
Angus Cotton 01-20-08, 06:21 PM	Keep in mind that in addition to the cost of creating the staff, the cost of casting wish must be paid 50 times. And sense you can't burn so much experience in magic item creation that you de-level, what level caster would you have to be to create such an item?
kamiyoko 01-21-08, 01:13 AM	Hmm..... The biggest loser from this item be the DM itself. A ring of 3 wishes can completely ruin a campaign, I cant imagin what a staff of 50 wishes would do.
Magrus 01-21-08, 01:50 AM	If I did my math correct while being intoxicated, you would need to burn 252,700 XP to craft a Staff of Wish as a 20th level caster. Which, would be enough XP to delevel a 20th level caster back to level 0, and then some leftover. 62700 over precisely. Thats nothing to shake a stick at. You could reshape whatever world you were on, or multiple ones with it however.
Kala2000 01-21-08, 02:25 AM	I read the title and said to myself "please God don't let this thread be about a staff with charges than can be spent on casting the Wish spell". Then I clicked it. Then I hoped for the best. Then I was disappointed to see it was what I had feared. No, don't even think about letting anyone get their hands on this item. Don't even "create" it. And never, ever, unless you really just want to f*** yourself and your own campaign in the a**, so to speak, give your players a chance to get it.
Anuvrix 01-21-08, 09:21 AM	It is true, such an item would cause the downfall of the world, the likely death of the players, and the **** raping of the DM's plan. Although, anything outside the parameters of the Wish spell can have consequences as seen fit by the DM. I would not reccomend actually creating such an item, the sheer amount of magic stored in it could in itself create problems. This gives the DM the opporunity to have any number of things happen. Eventually, the creator (or current holder) would wish that the staff had never been made, for all the problems it would have caused.
Aneutralshadeofblack 01-21-08, 10:45 AM	Since this is the campaign workshop and that's an item of Wish, I'm just going to assume that such an item would have been crafted by a god and therefore not subject to any concerns about whether or not a character could make it, and then I'm going to say I like it, because it makes a neat quasi-Grail to have in a campaign setting from the start (it'd feel a bit tacked on if it were added in afterwards - it should probably be the subject of a good few fairy tales). As long as it only has one charge.
Angus Cotton 01-21-08, 05:33 PM	...Eventually, the creator (or current holder) would wish that the staff had never been made... *poof!* Your Staff of Power vanishes from your other hand and all of existance...it had never been made... har! har! DM: 1; Players: 0
squidyak 01-22-08, 11:48 AM	And sense you can't burn so much experience in magic item creation that you de-level, what level caster would you have to be to create such an item? Well, since it would cost over 300,000 exp, they creator would have to be at least 32nd level.
Selgard 01-22-08, 11:56 AM	[Grasping the staff in both hands, the wizened wizard quietly pronounces] "I wish I had a ring of 3 wishes.." [as the staff slowly drains itself of all power, into the wizard's hand comes an item to truly break the foundations of the world] in essence: Just say no to items that cast wish. As per the direct wording of Wish, Wish can be used to make items of wish. Which can be used to make items of wish. Which can.. Well.. you get the idea. /casting/ wish alleviates this by the ((xp costx2)+5000) denoted in the Spell description- which is conveniently removed when cast from an item. Just say no to items that cast Wish.
Witch 01-22-08, 12:09 PM	Or you can acknowledge the rules that magic items that cast spells can only use as much XP as the creator put into them, meaning they can't create magic items of wish unless the caster put that XP into them.
Selgard 01-22-08, 12:24 PM	While I'm not against such rule (or any rule that would prevent such abuse, actually) in what book would such rule be located? While any game i've ever been in or ran had such limitations, whether written or implied by the DM, i've not yet seen it in print form. edit: After looking- i've found specific references for scrolls working that way, but no mention of any other items. (sword of luck/ring of wishes, etc). and it wasn't a general rule for magic items- it was from the footnotes of the Scroll column(s) in the DMG magic item tables. The tables (and text) for rings lack that limiting language entirely.
Witch 01-22-08, 01:01 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item. It says you need to pay extra for the components. If the cost for a given effect has a greater requirement of the components, pay up the XP.
Selgard 01-22-08, 02:24 PM	For the first sentence, I agree. It does say you have to pay. However, your second sentence isn't supported by the paragraph you quoted. For Scrolls the text directly supports the fact that "xp in = xp out". For the ring and sword however the text is absent. Given they are in the same relative sections of the book (magic items) and concerning the same ideas (xp-cost driven spells in items), i would have to say that the omission was deliberate. Which isn't to say I wouldn't change it in my games, but houserules are another thread entirely. However much we may not like it, there is no rule in the DMG saying that if you have Wish cast from an item, that you can not in turn use it to make more items of Wishing, at no great EXP cost. An oversight? Probably. A game breaking one. But it does say what it says. As the OP didn't ask us to discuss our houserules revolving around an idea of a Staff of Wish (charges 1), we are left to discuss what the books actually say. -S
Anuvrix 01-22-08, 04:10 PM	A friend of mine brought up the idea that the sheer amount of magical force within the staff could cause various magical effects in it's immediate vicinity. This is not supported in the rules, but it is completely plausable. A player of mine has created the staff, under the condition that he cannot use it to make more wish items, although it can be used to recharge the staff (at the cost of 5000 xp per charge refilled, of course). It doesn't create problems, all he ever uses it to do is duplicate spells and occasionally undo a critical hit or miss. Anything more and it could cause complications as i see fit. But i regress. If allowed, how would said magical seep affect things?
squidyak 01-22-08, 08:18 PM	However much we may not like it, there is no rule in the DMG saying that if you have Wish cast from an item, that you can not in turn use it to make more items of Wishing, at no great EXP cost. An oversight? Probably. A game breaking one. But it does say what it says. The wish spell specifically states: "Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you." A wish spell can not grant more wishes, nor any other ninth level spell. Technically you can't even use a wish to cast magic missile unless you already have access to invocation magic.
Anuvrix 01-23-08, 12:20 PM	A wish spell can not grant more wishes, nor any other ninth level spell. Technically you can't even use a wish to cast magic missile unless you already have access to invocation magic. Ahhh, but you can create items with it, but you have to pay the exp cost for creating said item. You could use a wish spell to do anything you very well please, But anything above those parameters can incur penalties (which can be anything the DM can think of).
Angus Cotton 01-23-08, 11:47 PM	Just 2 notes from the SRD under Wish (very last line): "When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP." See, no loophole. from the SRD under Wish, 4th condition: "Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school." See, you can cast Magic Missle even if it is of a prohibited school....plus, any other spell of 5th level or lower (liker cleric spells). Here is the SRD link to Wish for reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
Selgard 01-24-08, 09:59 AM	The XP cost is put into the item when the item is created. While it might be logical to assume there's a limitation therefore on how much XP you can get out of it- the rules do not say so. Now I realize that sounds silly- but please go compare the tables i mentioned earlier. The section on scrolls explicitly has the limitation of xp in = xp out. Given the ring and sword tables/text do Not have similar limitations, it is safe to say that however much we desire it to be otherwise, the rules simply don't support the fact that casting wish from an item draws XP from the user. It Should be the case that either you need proof that the creator input Y xp into the item, or that the user burns his/her own XP to fuel such spells. The rules just don't provide for that in this case. I am Not advocating that using the staff to create infinite wishes is a good idea, or that DM's should allow it. I am merely saying that the rules, as they currently are written, unfortunately support it. If a player tries to use that loophole, please feel free to snag a real rod, or staff, or anything heavy and blunt, and beat them around the room with it.
Anuvrix 01-24-08, 12:31 PM	The XP cost is put into the item when the item is created. While it might be logical to assume there's a limitation therefore on how much XP you can get out of it- the rules do not say so. Now I realize that sounds silly- but please go compare the tables i mentioned earlier. The section on scrolls explicitly has the limitation of xp in = xp out. Given the ring and sword tables/text do Not have similar limitations, it is safe to say that however much we desire it to be otherwise, the rules simply don't support the fact that casting wish from an item draws XP from the user. It Should be the case that either you need proof that the creator input Y xp into the item, or that the user burns his/her own XP to fuel such spells. The rules just don't provide for that in this case. I am Not advocating that using the staff to create infinite wishes is a good idea, or that DM's should allow it. I am merely saying that the rules, as they currently are written, unfortunately support it. If a player tries to use that loophole, please feel free to snag a real rod, or staff, or anything heavy and blunt, and beat them around the room with it. Casting wish from an item does not draw XP from the User, that XP is paid in the creation of the item. If a Staff of Wish is used to create a ring of wish or another such item, the Xp costs to create said item would have to be paid by the one using the staff. Using the staff to create more items of wish is possible, but not very efficient. You are much better off just wishing to restore charges to the staff, which is technically well within it's power.
Selgard 01-24-08, 01:30 PM	Which is a nice houserule, but no one has yet shown a quote from a book that states such. I agree about recharging the staff- and the same could be said for the ring of wishes. Make a ring with 1 charge, wish for 2 charges, etc. You still end up in the same boat- near infinite wishes.. Which is, in the end, the problem i stated originally with the Staff- albeit in a different manner. Again- I don't disagree that the Ring/Sword of wishes Should be limited in such a fashion- I just can't find anywhere in the text to mandate it.
Selgard 01-24-08, 03:39 PM	And on to other issues/ideas/topics. Anuvrix: If you wanted to pursue the staff having an effect due to it's power, you could go one of two ways. One is a relatively generic "wild magic" surge type idea, anywhere within (your choice of feet) radius around the staff. The idea being that the potent energies within the staff make the "weave" unstable around it. Another equally plausible reaction however, is the opposite. The drain on the weave from such an item is such that magic used in its vicinity is dampened. A -x% to range, duration, effect, damage (any/or/all), within (x)feet, yards, meters, etc. The effect could be tied to the number of charges remaining in the item. (charges x feet, or squares, or whatnot) such that as the staff/item slowly was depleted, it's effect on the surroundings would gradually minimize. Note that said effects should prevent the staff/item from being placed within an extradimensional space. (imo, anyway) just a few pennies. -S
Anuvrix 01-24-08, 05:59 PM	Wish spell, verbatum from the PHB 3.5: Wish Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, XP Casting Time: 1 Standard Action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See Text Duration: See Text Saving Throw: See Text Spell Resistance: Yes wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorceror can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects. -Duplicate any wizard or sorceror spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. -Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. -Duplicate any wizard or sorceror spell of 7th level or lower even if it's of a prihibited school. -Duplicate any spell of 5th level or lower even if it's of a prohibited school. -Undo the harmful effects of other spells such as geas/quest or insanity. -Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value. -Create a magic item or add to the powers of an existing magic item. -Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not sack, so only the best on applies. -Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all creatures are cured of the same affliction. For example, you caould heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution from being raised from the dead. -Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead person back to life by duplicating the resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a dead character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. -Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from any where on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. -Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), or a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. You may try to use wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's current owner. Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisoned in a hidden extradimensional space (as by an imprisonment spell), where you could "live" indefinitely. Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th level spells). Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost: The minimum XP costs for casting a wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP. ________________________________________ ___________________________________ That took forever..... Now, I hope that clears up some of these disputes, creating a ring of three wishes using the staff is possible but not efficient to do.
squidyak 01-24-08, 09:37 PM	Ahhh, but you can create items with it, but you have to pay the exp cost for creating said item. You could use a wish spell to do anything you very well please, But anything above those parameters can incur penalties (which can be anything the DM can think of). True. Most people aren't foolish enough to test their DM's kindness.
squidyak 01-24-08, 09:38 PM	See, you can cast Magic Missle even if it is of a prohibited school....plus, any other spell of 5th level or lower (liker cleric spells). Here is the SRD link to Wish for reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm Yeah, I was totally wrong on that one.
Selgard 01-24-08, 09:42 PM	Except that using a Ring (staff, sword, whatever) of Wishes isn't "casting a spell". In fact, the best that can be said is for it to be a "command use item". Spell Trigger items use components (somatic, verbal at least- as per SRD), but also require the spell to be on the user's spell list. (i.e. wands, scrolls, etc.) Command Word items however have no such limiting language. Anyone can use them, all it takes us knowledge of the command word. Very nearly (if not all) of the other rings fall into this category, as to the various Rods. (metamagic rods being the obvious exception). Forcing the Ring/staff/Sword of wish to have the "material components" adhered to also means you must do so for each and every item and component. Rings should then require Somatic and Verbal as well as Focus and such. The text simply doesn't support such conclusions. To the contrary, the text supports the very Opposite idea: that however much we wish it was Not so- Rings of Wish do not suck exp from the caster no matter what you do with it. It isn't RAW but Please.. PLEASE houserule it to be your way. Hopefully your players won't try this trick, but why leave it to chance? Nip it in the bud. No one wants to play in a world where a mage can use any number of ways to get their grubby little hands on a Wish ring, and ruin the campaign.
pigknight 02-03-08, 08:13 PM	Now I open another can of worms...The Staff of Miracle and Wish (really Miracle is enough but I put Wish in so you can do things againt the nature of the creator's diety's nature).