Taint for casting spells: too harsh? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Taint for casting spells: too harsh? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suzu
09-19-07, 07:04 PM I want to put the dampeners on magic in my game. I mean, it's nice and all, but damn. Wish is just a little crazy.

So, my idea is this: every time someone casts a spell, thy have to make a Will save or get taint. The reasoning is that a) Altering the fabric of the universe is evil, and b) Casting spells leads to feelings of grandeur, which get out of hand and lead to the whole absolut power corrupting absolutly (go swedish vodka).

I think this is good enough reasoning for spellcasters to become more and more evil for casting spells.

Thus, I then choose one of four taint-gaining approaches:

1. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + your level. If you fail, you gain 1d4 points of taint.

2. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + your level. If you fail, you gain a number of points of taint equal to the level of the spell.

3. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + the level of the spell. If you fail, you gain 1d4 points of taint.

4. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + the level of the spell. If you fail, you gain a number of points of taint equal to the level of the spell.

a) Is it ok to taint spellcasters like this?
b) If so, which of the four approaches above should I use?
rankrath
09-19-07, 07:18 PM If your playing a horror campaign, and you've warned the players ahead of time, go ahead. I think 3 is the best option, it's the fairest.
Suzu
09-19-07, 08:14 PM My thanks.
JulesCARV
09-19-07, 10:34 PM In that case, I recommend replacing the paladin's spellcasting abilities with something else. Complete Warrior has a variant for non-spellcasting paladins (and rangers), but it's kinda weak IMHO. Maybe paladins could get fighter bonus feats at levels divisible by 4? (4, 8, 12, 16, and 20?)
Suzu
09-20-07, 06:44 AM I dunno, why should paladins be except? All good men can fall.
Suzu
09-20-07, 06:45 AM Besides, their saving throws will be stupidly easy.
JulesCARV
09-20-07, 12:28 PM I don't know. It strikes me as a bit... silly, to give a paladin evil class features, assuming your keeping the flavor, code, and alignment restriction of the paladin in the PHB (although perhaps it would be easier to get rid of that than spellcasting). It would be like putting animate dead on the paladin spell list in a normal game where spellcasting in general isn't wrong but animating undead is, even if a good sorcerer might be able to animate dead on occassion and still be good. Now, if someone's a multiclassed paladin/sorcerer, then fine, have them cast spells, and fight the effects of taint the best they can, but giving paladins class features that are inherently contrary to their good nature doesn't seem to make much sense, even if they're well-equipped to resist the effects.
Suzu
09-20-07, 12:49 PM But the clerics, even the good ones, get evilised from spellcasting too, even if they cast good spells. The idea is that when you cast a spell, it warps the universe. This warping lets pure evil in, via the cracks. The evil then latches onto your soul and begins to breed.

Basically, I don't want many magic items in this world, just weapons of legacy. If you take out magic weapons, you weaken the non-spellcasters. So, to keep balance, I need to weaken the spellcasters, and this seems like a good way to do it.

Perhaps paladins could get Pure Soul (HoH pg 124) as a bonus feat? That said, I really dislike that feat (I'm thinking of changing it so you get a bonus of Will saves to resist taint instead). Also, what about good clerics? Should they get this as well?
Suzu
09-20-07, 12:51 PM Really, the emphasis on spellcasting = taint isn't that spellcasting is evil, it's that it allows evil into the soul. And that's what taint is: evil getting into the soul.
JulesCARV
09-20-07, 01:45 PM *shrugs* Well, I'd expect most bards, clerics, druids, high-level rangers, sorcerers, and wizards to be neutral-to-evil in your setting, with good ones being rather rare (although not impossible), which is fine in my books. Neutrality and evil aren't options for paladins, though, unless you drop the alignment restriction (which is also fine).
Suzu
09-20-07, 02:19 PM **** it, I'll get rid of the paladin alignment restrictions. They're a pain in the beehive anyway...

Thanks for talking Mr. Man, you've given me helpful advice :)
JulesCARV
09-20-07, 10:25 PM Glad to be of help, assuming I was actually helpful rather than irritating and oblivious to the atmosphere and themes of your setting. ;)
Suzu
09-21-07, 06:34 AM Nah, you really were helpful. I'm getting rid of paladin alignment restrictions because you suggested it. And I think it's a wise decision. Seriously, thanks :)
bone_naga
09-22-07, 12:18 AM Go with #4. If the risk is the same for all spells, it makes sense that the PCs will always cast high-level spells. If the risk changes with the spell level, they might risk lower level spells as their Will saves get better, but the high-level spells will be reserved for dire situations. Of course, this all depends on the flavor of your campaign. If you only want the PCs to use magic when they need to alter the very fabric of reality, go with #3.
Suzu
09-22-07, 12:34 PM I thought 4 was a bit too harsh. Heroes of Horror advises that players should never get more than 3 points at a time anyway, and getting 9 points of taint everytime you whip out meteor swarm is going to be tought, especially when the cleric that casts restoration on you get 4 points himself.
Talisman
09-22-07, 07:03 PM By the time you're casting meteor swarm, a DC 19 Will save is almost impossible to fail. I vote for #4.

And :thumbsup: on killing off paladin alignment restrictions.
Suzu
09-22-07, 10:10 PM Ok, I'm going to do a few calculations for each option so that we can see the different levels of taint a wizard would get from cating meteor swarm 20 times (so, after 20 days).

The calculations assume:
-the wizard is level 17
-has a Wisdom modifier of 16
-has a cloak of resistance +5
-has taken the Pure Soul feat (which I rewrote for the campaign so that is just gives you a +5 bonus to Will saves vs. taint)

Leaving us with a total Will save of +23

As regards average taint rolls, it assumes we get a 2 each time.

Option 1: 8
Option 2: 36
Option 3: 2
Option 4: 9

So, all things considered, I'm going with Option 2.
Talisman
09-22-07, 10:25 PM We like our wizards crazy, do we?

Just so y'know, accoridng to Heroes of Horror, our Wis 16 wizard has Moderate depravity at Taint 8, Severe depravity at Taint 24, and is utterly, laughing-foaming-screeching-crying-bat-crazy insane at Taint 56.
DragonicHeritage
09-22-07, 10:32 PM You don't need to get rid of Paladin alignment restrictions. It just makes Blackguards more common. And more fun :D
Paladins are generally at least somewhat wise: they know what they are doing, and why. You could say that the Paladin takes the world's evil into themself, which is really flavourful for that remove disease ability.
Besides, the more taint a Paladin gets, the less spells s/he has.
Oh, and ging back to remove disease- Paladins can remove a minor amount of taint.

Perhaps another idea is instead of a flat scaling taint of 0-9, you could say, increase the die type of taint the next step? E.g. 1st=1, 2nd=1d2, 3rd=1d3, ect
Or maybe feats to reduce taint damage taken by spells? e.g. 2 temporay points of CON damage to reduce taint from casting a spell by 1, or subdual damage = to amount of taint normally taken x 4. Maybe they can choose to tak no taint, but are fatigued the first time, exhausted the next, unconscious ect.

In you game, I sugest giving spellcasting characters some more feats, though maybe more non-combat oriented( like skill focus), or in flavour of character class( like escew materials for sorcerors)

Anyway, sorry for such a ramble, and good luck with your game!
Suzu
09-22-07, 11:08 PM We like our wizards crazy, do we?

Just so y'know, accoridng to Heroes of Horror, our Wis 16 wizard has Moderate depravity at Taint 8, Severe depravity at Taint 24, and is utterly, laughing-foaming-screeching-crying-bat-crazy insane at Taint 56.

Yeah, but they'll have taint resisting items won't they? 100 gp a pop, not too shabby.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suzu 09-19-07, 07:04 PM	I want to put the dampeners on magic in my game. I mean, it's nice and all, but damn. Wish is just a little crazy. So, my idea is this: every time someone casts a spell, thy have to make a Will save or get taint. The reasoning is that a) Altering the fabric of the universe is evil, and b) Casting spells leads to feelings of grandeur, which get out of hand and lead to the whole absolut power corrupting absolutly (go swedish vodka). I think this is good enough reasoning for spellcasters to become more and more evil for casting spells. Thus, I then choose one of four taint-gaining approaches: 1. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + your level. If you fail, you gain 1d4 points of taint. 2. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + your level. If you fail, you gain a number of points of taint equal to the level of the spell. 3. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + the level of the spell. If you fail, you gain 1d4 points of taint. 4. Make a Will save each time you cast a spell. The Will save DC is 10 + the level of the spell. If you fail, you gain a number of points of taint equal to the level of the spell. a) Is it ok to taint spellcasters like this? b) If so, which of the four approaches above should I use?
rankrath 09-19-07, 07:18 PM	If your playing a horror campaign, and you've warned the players ahead of time, go ahead. I think 3 is the best option, it's the fairest.
Suzu 09-19-07, 08:14 PM	My thanks.
JulesCARV 09-19-07, 10:34 PM	In that case, I recommend replacing the paladin's spellcasting abilities with something else. Complete Warrior has a variant for non-spellcasting paladins (and rangers), but it's kinda weak IMHO. Maybe paladins could get fighter bonus feats at levels divisible by 4? (4, 8, 12, 16, and 20?)
Suzu 09-20-07, 06:44 AM	I dunno, why should paladins be except? All good men can fall.
Suzu 09-20-07, 06:45 AM	Besides, their saving throws will be stupidly easy.
JulesCARV 09-20-07, 12:28 PM	I don't know. It strikes me as a bit... silly, to give a paladin evil class features, assuming your keeping the flavor, code, and alignment restriction of the paladin in the PHB (although perhaps it would be easier to get rid of that than spellcasting). It would be like putting animate dead on the paladin spell list in a normal game where spellcasting in general isn't wrong but animating undead is, even if a good sorcerer might be able to animate dead on occassion and still be good. Now, if someone's a multiclassed paladin/sorcerer, then fine, have them cast spells, and fight the effects of taint the best they can, but giving paladins class features that are inherently contrary to their good nature doesn't seem to make much sense, even if they're well-equipped to resist the effects.
Suzu 09-20-07, 12:49 PM	But the clerics, even the good ones, get evilised from spellcasting too, even if they cast good spells. The idea is that when you cast a spell, it warps the universe. This warping lets pure evil in, via the cracks. The evil then latches onto your soul and begins to breed. Basically, I don't want many magic items in this world, just weapons of legacy. If you take out magic weapons, you weaken the non-spellcasters. So, to keep balance, I need to weaken the spellcasters, and this seems like a good way to do it. Perhaps paladins could get Pure Soul (HoH pg 124) as a bonus feat? That said, I really dislike that feat (I'm thinking of changing it so you get a bonus of Will saves to resist taint instead). Also, what about good clerics? Should they get this as well?
Suzu 09-20-07, 12:51 PM	Really, the emphasis on spellcasting = taint isn't that spellcasting is evil, it's that it allows evil into the soul. And that's what taint is: evil getting into the soul.
JulesCARV 09-20-07, 01:45 PM	shrugs Well, I'd expect most bards, clerics, druids, high-level rangers, sorcerers, and wizards to be neutral-to-evil in your setting, with good ones being rather rare (although not impossible), which is fine in my books. Neutrality and evil aren't options for paladins, though, unless you drop the alignment restriction (which is also fine).
Suzu 09-20-07, 02:19 PM	**** it, I'll get rid of the paladin alignment restrictions. They're a pain in the beehive anyway... Thanks for talking Mr. Man, you've given me helpful advice :)
JulesCARV 09-20-07, 10:25 PM	Glad to be of help, assuming I was actually helpful rather than irritating and oblivious to the atmosphere and themes of your setting. ;)
Suzu 09-21-07, 06:34 AM	Nah, you really were helpful. I'm getting rid of paladin alignment restrictions because you suggested it. And I think it's a wise decision. Seriously, thanks :)
bone_naga 09-22-07, 12:18 AM	Go with #4. If the risk is the same for all spells, it makes sense that the PCs will always cast high-level spells. If the risk changes with the spell level, they might risk lower level spells as their Will saves get better, but the high-level spells will be reserved for dire situations. Of course, this all depends on the flavor of your campaign. If you only want the PCs to use magic when they need to alter the very fabric of reality, go with #3.
Suzu 09-22-07, 12:34 PM	I thought 4 was a bit too harsh. Heroes of Horror advises that players should never get more than 3 points at a time anyway, and getting 9 points of taint everytime you whip out meteor swarm is going to be tought, especially when the cleric that casts restoration on you get 4 points himself.
Talisman 09-22-07, 07:03 PM	By the time you're casting meteor swarm, a DC 19 Will save is almost impossible to fail. I vote for #4. And :thumbsup: on killing off paladin alignment restrictions.
Suzu 09-22-07, 10:10 PM	Ok, I'm going to do a few calculations for each option so that we can see the different levels of taint a wizard would get from cating meteor swarm 20 times (so, after 20 days). The calculations assume: -the wizard is level 17 -has a Wisdom modifier of 16 -has a cloak of resistance +5 -has taken the Pure Soul feat (which I rewrote for the campaign so that is just gives you a +5 bonus to Will saves vs. taint) Leaving us with a total Will save of +23 As regards average taint rolls, it assumes we get a 2 each time. Option 1: 8 Option 2: 36 Option 3: 2 Option 4: 9 So, all things considered, I'm going with Option 2.
Talisman 09-22-07, 10:25 PM	We like our wizards crazy, do we? Just so y'know, accoridng to Heroes of Horror, our Wis 16 wizard has Moderate depravity at Taint 8, Severe depravity at Taint 24, and is utterly, laughing-foaming-screeching-crying-bat-crazy insane at Taint 56.
DragonicHeritage 09-22-07, 10:32 PM	You don't need to get rid of Paladin alignment restrictions. It just makes Blackguards more common. And more fun :D Paladins are generally at least somewhat wise: they know what they are doing, and why. You could say that the Paladin takes the world's evil into themself, which is really flavourful for that remove disease ability. Besides, the more taint a Paladin gets, the less spells s/he has. Oh, and ging back to remove disease- Paladins can remove a minor amount of taint. Perhaps another idea is instead of a flat scaling taint of 0-9, you could say, increase the die type of taint the next step? E.g. 1st=1, 2nd=1d2, 3rd=1d3, ect Or maybe feats to reduce taint damage taken by spells? e.g. 2 temporay points of CON damage to reduce taint from casting a spell by 1, or subdual damage = to amount of taint normally taken x 4. Maybe they can choose to tak no taint, but are fatigued the first time, exhausted the next, unconscious ect. In you game, I sugest giving spellcasting characters some more feats, though maybe more non-combat oriented( like skill focus), or in flavour of character class( like escew materials for sorcerors) Anyway, sorry for such a ramble, and good luck with your game!
Suzu 09-22-07, 11:08 PM	We like our wizards crazy, do we? Just so y'know, accoridng to Heroes of Horror, our Wis 16 wizard has Moderate depravity at Taint 8, Severe depravity at Taint 24, and is utterly, laughing-foaming-screeching-crying-bat-crazy insane at Taint 56. Yeah, but they'll have taint resisting items won't they? 100 gp a pop, not too shabby.