Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CryoSilver 12-01-07, 03:44 AM	Taking inspiration from another thread, I thought to myself, "What would happen if the Blood War ended, and the two main evil races turned their sites on the Heavens, and the Material Plane?" I think this is a big enough event to merit it's own setting, or at the very least, enough of a campaign to last all twenty (or more!) levels, and I'm pretty excited by it. The first question is: how far along are the fiends in their assault? Have they just ended the war and are building up forces? Have they started sending advance scouts? Is the war in full-blown progress? Have they WON? Maybe the most interesting option is halfway between the last two: the fiends are winning, and they're driving back the rest of the multiverse; their victory is assured, and all resistance now is just buying time. So I'll take that as my starting point. Building the Material Plane is a simple matter; I can just use my existing campaign world (http://www.geocities.com/absolutecryogenic/dnd/dnd.html) with some tweaks to the religions to make this war a better fit. Heck, I can even set this war immediately after the Greater War, to explain why the Material Plane is falling so easily. I know there's no map posted, but my scanner is defunct at the moment. I'll fix that as soon as possible. What I'm asking for help in doing is figuring out the ramifications of a plane-shaking event like this. What would life be like under the rule of a demon lord or arch-devil? What are the consequences of entire planes being corrupted by evil? Stuff like that. I'll be posting my ideas as they come to me. It might look chaotic at first, but I'll refine them as I get the time. My first idea is that in their desperation, the races of the Material Plane turn to the Inner Planes for power. Battles between armies of fiends and half-elemental warriors who have sacrificed their humanity for more power play out in my head. Clerics who are literally made of positive energy heal injured soldiers while negative energy clerics drain demons into withered husks. My second idea is that some people have retreated to the Plane of Shadow for (dubious) safety. I want to take the idea of the Plane of Shadow as a dark, dangerous and menacing place and run with it. The Plane of Shadow is a horrid caricature of the Material Plane: everything is twisted and fearsome, but its still safer than the Material Plane. The Plane of Shadow isn't Evil so much as it is primal and savage.
CryoSilver 12-01-07, 03:44 AM	Using my first post basically as a worksheet. This post is for the product itself, or prototypes, at first. A Sanguine Sea: The Blood War Escalates "Sit down, my children, and I will tell you why we live on this Plane of Shadow, in this terrible dark city. It was many years ago, when I was but a lad, and you were but a dream. A crafty devil named Mephistopheles craved power, as all devils do, but grew weary of the constant deadlocked struggle of his kind against the savage demons. So Mephistopheles, that most clever and devious of devils did something none had thought to do before: he gathered his armies and built a portal to Mechanus, home of the formians and inevitables. You don't know what formians and inevitables are; they're dead and gone now, but suffice it to say that they were creatures of order. When Mephistopheles marched his armies through the portal, he knew he had started something huge, something that would change the universe forever. As hordes of devils slaughtered or enslaved all they encountered, a demon named Demogorgon watched with great interest. He knew that if this devil were t take Mechanus, the demons would be at a great disadvantage. So he mustered his hordes and set them loose on Limbo, home of the slaad, another now-dead race. The Heavens watched in horror as first Mechanus, and then Limbo fell to the fiends. Now children, this took many hundreds of years, and we still had no inkling of what was happening. The angels and guardinals and eladrin, though, they knew what was happening. They sent their forces to ward Arcadia and Ysgard, but having been complacent for so many millenia, content to simply watch the Blood War, they were unprepared for the cunning of the devils, or the savagery of the demons. Many millions of celestials died, and the heavenly rivers ran thick with their blood. Soon, the fiends were pounding on the gates of Celestia and Arborea and things looked grim for the universe. But then, things took a turn for the even worse as the yugoloths saw their opportunity and struck deep into the heart of Elysium through the Astral Plane, laying waste to it and slaughtering most of the guardinals. For the next age,the angels and eladrin both fought losing wars against their immortals foes, hemmed in on both sides and vastly outnumbered. The eladrin fell first, losing Arborea and much of the Beastlands; the few that remained fought as guerillas in the forests or retreated through the Astral Plane to our world. The angels fought the devils to a standstill on the fourth layer of Celestia and there the war stalemated for many a century, until, in desperation, the angels did the unthinkable. Mustering every solar and paragon, the angels stripped Chronias of its power and placed it in an artifact: a diamond of surpassing size and beauty, called Last Hope by the angels. It was cast into the Astral Plane, blocking every portal in existence and preventing the devils from calling in more of their number. This was when our world saw its last sunrise untainted by the belching smoke of demonic war engines, my children. Unable to conquer the Heavens, the fiends turned their eyes to the one place they could reach without portals through the Astral Plane. Our world, the Material Plane. On the fateful sixth day of the year 4326, just seven years after the Greater War, a massive horde of fiends poured out of the aether and laid siege to Rynin, our brightest and most beautiful city. Hours later, another horde appeared and razed Lapin, jewel of the West, seat of Murafe's power. We in the land of Tywick knew we could not survive this onslaught, so we gathered the thirteen wizards of our nation and told them to save us! Send us somewhere safe, if only for moment. Now we are here, children, all the people of Tywick, living together in the city of Namarun, in the Plane of Shadow, praying that the fiends do not find us here."
nunchuckgun 12-01-07, 10:46 AM	Mine is a point that's probably been brought up in that other thread... The End of the Blood War seems unlikely to me under these terms. I think that either the devils or the demons would have had to have won that war in order for any kind of resolution to have happened. The Devils, as the most true manifestations of lawful creatures are legally bound to combat the demons, and the demons as the most purely chaotic creatures are bound to refuse any type of logical alliance. If we can see past those aspects and form some kind of odd alliance between them, or (better in my opinion) merely have had one side win the war (which results in two massively different scenarios), I think you could have an interesting campaign on your side. As for your "life-under" questions. I think that can be answered fairly easily. Any community overseen by a devil becomes quite similar to the city of Dis. All citizens are required to have passports or identification, death camps are probably prominent, in order to feed souls to the hellfires and stoke the devil's power. A community under the power of the demons is probably dead. Bodies everywhere, people fleeing for their lives (perhaps), demons laungishing in squalor until they get hungry or bored and quite likely also fighting each other either for dominance or for something to do.
CryoSilver 12-01-07, 11:03 AM	The vision in my head is this: a small (relatively) faction of devils decides that the Blood War is going nowhere fast, and that there's easy pickins' in the other Outer Planes (forgive me for not remembering what they are; I sold my Manual of the Planes. Mechanus is probably the closest non-devil controlled plane, right?). So this faction, which, though minor overall, still consists of ten of thousands of devils, possibly even one of the Lords of the Nine launches an attack on Mechanus and easily pushes back the formians and even the inevitables. War is about more than just direct combat after all. If the devilscan take and hold Mechanus, they now have more territory, more resources, and a more firm hold over the power of Law. The demons see this happening and dont want the devils to pull ahead with this unorthodox startegy, so they attack Limbo. The other devils see this and don't want to be stuck with their current stake when they could win so much more, so they join in the invasion. Maybe the Blood War isn't over, but it's spreading across the planes, largely in isolation, as the demons work up one isde of the Great Wheel and the devils work up the other. Maybe it would even be cool for the battlefield to shift to the Outlands. It's pretty clear to me that if the demons and evils can fight each other and still hold off the forces of good, even if just a portion of them decided to go on a rampage, not much could stop them. As far the Material Plane goes, it could vary from kingdom to kingdom who is in charge: the mortal races still holding on, or demons, or devils, depending mostly on which side got there first.
Tsochar 12-01-07, 11:08 PM	In one of the fiendish codices, or maybe manual of the planes, or the planar handbook... could've even been the BOVD.... can't remember. Anyway, it said that the Blood War is the main thing that keeps demons away from the material plane and away from Celestia. Generally, I think that the main forces of demons and devils, if their war did end, would first put everything they had into conquering Celestia. The Material Plane is essentially a tool they use to gain power, through corruption and possession, among other things. With Celestia more concerned with beating back the forces of evil, however, I would think that the occasional powerful fiend would come and establish his own kingdom there as a 'summer home,' but full-on wars and outsider armies would more likely be waged on the Outer Planes. Here's my guess on how things happen: 1) Demons and Devils decide that it would be of mutual benefit to take over Celestia first and then resume their war. Since demons would never take orders from devils, and demons themselves have no need to give any orders, it is decided they merely try not to get in each others' way. 2) The Devils begin a well-formulated tactical campaign to take Lunia, while the Demons already move in for an assault, using flying armies to avoid the holy waters of the Silver Sea. 3) Bahamut and the Devas beat back the demonic invasion by dispelling the sea-gate, and then place magical walls around the Mountain, and closing most gates on land. They place a permanent Magic Circle against Evil around the wall and send guards to further protect. 4) The devils launch a campaign to isolate celestia by first invading Bytopia and Arcadia, and also send their armies to the Outlands in a move to capture the outlying cities. They stay away from Sigil but keep their eyes on the Spire at the same time. They advise the demons to sate their bloodlust elsewhere while they work on breaching the walls. The demon's don't trust the devils, and the stronger Demon Lords continue to send their hordes to Lunia. 5) The lesser lords, however, decide to establish kingdoms where they see fit in the Great Wheel. This is a good starting point for the campaign, with minor demons and a few devils now arriving more often to the material plane, uprooting kingdoms and throwing off politics. 6) With Celestia's forces spread out among the Outer Planes, and fiendish armies at their doorstep, the Celestials decide to create a device which, upon detecting any portal from any lower plane, dispels it. They send it to the Astral Plane, where all portals must touch upon, and it prevents large-scale armies from attacking. While demons and devils still have a presence in the other planes, they can no longer gather large armies. 7) The devils begin to expand via the River Styx into Acheron, and the demons use it to go to Pandemonium. They send their armies, expanding more and more, the devils a bit slower than the demons. A multistage military campaign would go great with this.
CryoSilver 12-01-07, 11:18 PM	This is pretty cool stuff. I'll think about how it can all be woven together.
Kelmourne 12-02-07, 03:31 AM	However unlikely (Some would say impossible) it is that the blood war has somehow ended, the effects would be one of two outcomes, 1: The Demons either won or allied with the devils: The universe as a whole is doomed and it is only a matter of time before the demons kill everything in their path of destruction (This is because they have infinite ranks, coming from the infinite abyss and all). 2: The devils won and there are no more demons: Things go on relatively the same on the material plane but on the great wheel, the devils will either be waring with the forces of good or planning to.
Tsochar 12-02-07, 12:17 PM	The demon supply isn't infinite, merely inexhaustible. Demons are sprung forth from the material of the Abyss itself, and at any time it may reclaim any given demon, except for demon lords and the like. Devils are created from the souls of the mortals that are bound to a particular demon lord, either by Faustian pact or simply acting evil in a certain way. Kalabons are among the few exceptions, created spontaneously from the dead corpse of the Hag Countess.
CryoSilver 12-02-07, 12:25 PM	Kelmourne: Maybe the Blood War isn't over then maybe it's just being fought differently now; at some point, some enterprising devil is going to realize that by capturing more planes, the power of Hell can be vastly increased, and work toward doing so. So maybe "End of the Blood War" is wrong; maybe it should read "Escalation of the Blood War."
Dragonlord20000 12-02-07, 03:24 PM	For a good idea of what a demon (or evil other worldly being) run material plane would be like, is the book Armageddon's Children by Terry Brooks. Its not dnd based, and actual mechanics used to reflect how things operate would be a strain on dnd rules. However it has a great atmosphere that could be ported over easily once you eliminate the modern flavor. It includes things like polluted and scorched landscapes(caused by human wars, but could easily be the demons advances), multiple plagues that cures for are incredibly scarce, humans holed up in compounds which are little more than makeshift forts, and demon run work camps that are reminiscent of work camps orchestrated by various dictators. Anyways, the stories a good one filled with some good ideas.
Eldritch_Lord 12-02-07, 03:44 PM	6) With Celestia's forces spread out among the Outer Planes, and fiendish armies at their doorstep, the Celestials decide to create a device which, upon detecting any portal from any lower plane, dispels it. They send it to the Astral Plane, where all portals must touch upon, and it prevents large-scale armies from attacking. While demons and devils still have a presence in the other planes, they can no longer gather large armies. This is a perfect idea. If the device detects and dispels portals from the lower planes, this makes a great reason for the devils and/or demons already out of the lower planes to be interested in the Prime Material, as only mortal spellcasters would be able to open portals into the lower planes and help them out. It would make a great plot point too: the PCs find one of these spellcasters at some point, defeat him/her, and tell the celestials; the celestials modify the device, but it's too late and the fiends have already gotten quite a few regiments out and it becomes a race for time to see if they can take out the device and invade everywhere or whether the PCs and celestials can hold them off.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-02-07, 05:58 PM	Why would it *just* be Celestia fighting back? I can't see the inhabitants of the other upper planes just sitting around idle while this is going on.
GoriceXII 12-02-07, 11:21 PM	Cryosilver have you ever read Michael Moorcock? I think he does a reasonably good job of depicting a 'war in the heavens' with both points of view and the whole thing seeming very epic. But I'll give a couple of spoilers here. In one book "The Knight of the Swords" elements of chaos have begun slipping into a particular set of five planes as Arioch, the Knight of the Swords, one of the Lords of Chaos, has taken it over. His priests have gained more power, the creatures he favours have been able to gradually conquer and subjugate the former dominating races. The previous ruler of the plane is reduced to a shadowy figure who can only communicate with his creations with an effort. In the next book, "The Queen of the Swords" the defeat of Arioch has only prompted the other Lords of Chaos to get tough, sending an actual army to conquer the resisting planes. We find out in this series that the totally conquered planes are totally under the will of the Lords of Chaos. One thing I thought would be cool for a situation like yours would be for actual forces of devils/demons in the Prime Material Plane marching with armies or leading them; certain kinds of inherently good races being all but wiped out, clerics of good finding that they are barely able to cast spells. It would result possibly in major quests to find points of contact with deities, gain important magical items, sneak somehow for raids or assassination missions to take out the new planar rulers. It would be fantastically epic.
CryoSilver 12-03-07, 01:21 AM	I'll check the library tomorrow. There are no deities in ym campaign setting; the archfiends and celestial paragons are the most powerful beings in Iliga's universe.
Tsochar 12-03-07, 03:27 AM	only mortal spellcasters would be able to open portals into the lower planes and help them out Wrong. All interplanar travel spells must at some point briefly touch, and thus exist in, the astral plane (Don't doubt me on this, I have read every single word in Planar Handbook at least once; I read it cover to cover when I first got it, and referred to it several times when I wasn't sure about something. I'm a little fuzzy on the names of the locales, but I assure you I have most of the important parts memorized.) The only way to get around this is travel via outlands or to find a landing on the Infinite Staircase. The Far Realm might provide a similar path, but it's not easy at all to travel through there. Or keep one's sanity. The weakness of the machine is that it only dispels 'stargate' type travel, and can't affect 'sliders' type travel; it also doesn't work on natural portals that form between adjacent planes, or on portals between the material and ethereal or material and shadow planes. A portal that requires you step through would only last for a split-second, but a plane shift or teleport spell would be unaffected, since it would be over by the time the device detects it. This means that the foot-soldiers would be effectively stuck on their home planes with little means to escape, other than by magic items or traveling up through the intermediate planes. I would guess that it sends a small fraction of 'slider' travelers to be stranded on the Astral Plane, though. In any case, it would serve as a plot point in very much the way you described, but for different reasons. Fiend-summonings onto the Material Plane would still work, probably better than teleportation alone, and they would also be the only source of outside summoning, since petitioners of outer planes tend to lose all or most of their class levels, and mages are rare elsewhere. The material plane is like a big stockpile of resources that can increase the strength of whichever side it gets its hands on the most, but that's generally the only thing it's good for. Demons get all the forces they need from their own plane, and devils get any souls they can corrupt to LE alignment. These souls are tortured for years in a fetid pit until they become lemures, and are eventually promoted into higher forms. Anyway, with portals gone, material spellcasters suddenly become a means to cut off the power of the upper planes: Corrupt entire nations, empires, kingdoms, continents until nothing ends up in Celestia.
Kelmourne 12-03-07, 02:22 PM	Why would it *just* be Celestia fighting back? I can't see the inhabitants of the other upper planes just sitting around idle while this is going on. Because there are more demons and devils than are angels, archons, eladrins, and guardinals put together. If they fought back, it wouldn't go very well.
CryoSilver 12-03-07, 04:03 PM	If you're interested, I have a rough draft of the background info up in my second post :)
ElyasRavenwood 12-03-07, 04:57 PM	I find your campaign idea very interesting. I do have one question however, Where are all of the gods in this mess? I am sure there power would make things even more interesting, with the good gods defending their realms, and the evil gods siding with the LE forces and the CE forces. If I remember there are also the elemental planes. Don’t the Djins, Marids, Efreetis, and Dao's fall along an alignment axis. Wont they take part in the ruckus? Aha I just noticed your campaign world is godless. That answers my first question. I think the Elementals would also make things interesting. Oh and another thought What about the mindflayers and the Aboleths? What about the "Far Realm"? I wonder how they would take part in this planar war. This is an interesting idea. Thank you.
CryoSilver 12-03-07, 05:13 PM	The elemental planes are along a different cirlce than the outer planes as I've always seen it. Plus, by taking a heavily aligned plane, I'd imgaine the fiends gaining more influence over that alignment: by taking Mechanus, the devils become almost the undisputed masters of Law, much as by taking Hades, they'd be master of Evil. The aberrations would have be addressed race by race, I think, and the far Realms wouldn't give a damn either way. I have an exam in a couple hours, so I have to cram, but when I get some time, I'll throw out a few ideas about the other powers.
Eldritch_Lord 12-03-07, 09:18 PM	Wrong. All interplanar travel spells must at some point briefly touch, and thus exist in, the astral plane (Don't doubt me on this, I have read every single word in Planar Handbook at least once; I read it cover to cover when I first got it, and referred to it several times when I wasn't sure about something. I'm a little fuzzy on the names of the locales, but I assure you I have most of the important parts memorized.) The only way to get around this is travel via outlands or to find a landing on the Infinite Staircase. The Far Realm might provide a similar path, but it's not easy at all to travel through there. Or keep one's sanity. The weakness of the machine is that it only dispels 'stargate' type travel, and can't affect 'sliders' type travel; it also doesn't work on natural portals that form between adjacent planes, or on portals between the material and ethereal or material and shadow planes. A portal that requires you step through would only last for a split-second, but a plane shift or teleport spell would be unaffected, since it would be over by the time the device detects it. This means that the foot-soldiers would be effectively stuck on their home planes with little means to escape, other than by magic items or traveling up through the intermediate planes. I would guess that it sends a small fraction of 'slider' travelers to be stranded on the Astral Plane, though. I know how the interplanar travel spells work; I too have read all of those resources several times cover-to-cover. I was simply reinterpreting what you had said in a more literal fashion. You said the device would block portals "from the lower planes", which I took to mean portals originating from the Lower Planes would not work; basically, if you tried to travel from the Nine Hells to the Prime Material, it wouldn't work, but if you tried to travel from the Prime Material to the Nine Hells, there would be nothing in your way. Thus, demons would depend on mortal summoners to bring them out of the Abyss and the devils would require mortals to help set up a network of gates to move their armies. Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear. In any case, it would serve as a plot point in very much the way you described, but for different reasons. Fiend-summonings onto the Material Plane would still work, probably better than teleportation alone, and they would also be the only source of outside summoning, since petitioners of outer planes tend to lose all or most of their class levels, and mages are rare elsewhere. The material plane is like a big stockpile of resources that can increase the strength of whichever side it gets its hands on the most, but that's generally the only thing it's good for. Demons get all the forces they need from their own plane, and devils get any souls they can corrupt to LE alignment. These souls are tortured for years in a fetid pit until they become lemures, and are eventually promoted into higher forms. Anyway, with portals gone, material spellcasters suddenly become a means to cut off the power of the upper planes: Corrupt entire nations, empires, kingdoms, continents until nothing ends up in Celestia. This is basically what I was going for--since the mortal spellcasters are the only ones who can (A) provide aid to the fiends, (B) get them out of the Lower Planes, and (C) provide a shortcut to Celestia, they would be high in demand and the fiends would step up their corruption/pact-making efforts.
Tsochar 12-03-07, 11:28 PM	I know how the interplanar travel spells work; I too have read all of those resources several times cover-to-cover. I was simply reinterpreting what you had said in a more literal fashion. You said the device would block portals "from the lower planes", which I took to mean portals originating from the Lower Planes would not work; basically, if you tried to travel from the Nine Hells to the Prime Material, it wouldn't work, but if you tried to travel from the Prime Material to the Nine Hells, there would be nothing in your way. Thus, demons would depend on mortal summoners to bring them out of the Abyss and the devils would require mortals to help set up a network of gates to move their armies. Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear. This is basically what I was going for--since the mortal spellcasters are the only ones who can (A) provide aid to the fiends, (B) get them out of the Lower Planes, and (C) provide a shortcut to Celestia, they would be high in demand and the fiends would step up their corruption/pact-making efforts. Ah. I guess we were thinking of something similar, but things got lost in translation. When I said 'from the lower planes,' however, I really meant 'to or from the lower planes,' but this doesn't affect summons. The gates wouldn't work either way since it would probably be just as easy for such a device to cover both ways. The gates would have to be cast in the material plane, though, and there would still need to be a way to get the lesser fiends out of their respective planes, since any invasion force needs legions of expendable foot soldiers. In any case, I prefer the scenario in which the fiends have to lead their armies through the various outer planes, having to fight the forces of good and the PCs along the way, if for no other reason because it sounds way cooler. By the way, when I said 'manual of the planes,' I meant 'planar handbook.' I sometimes get those mixed up.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-04-07, 01:43 AM	I think your ideas could spawn some great material. I think it would be neat to play up the elemental planes a bit, especially now that the outer planes are under siege. Perhaps a small portion of mortals have given up faith in the Celestials, and decided to devote themselves to the Elemental lords, who are now the most stable, non-evil powers in the multi-verse. And here's another sub-plot you could use. I once had a campaign based on the fact that the Tarrasque was created and placed upon the material plane by the Elemental lords to keep the blood war from spilling over into the mortal realm (it was written in one of the first monster manuals). A servant of Asmodeus was trying to enslave the beast for the devils army. Hope it helps.
CryoSilver 12-04-07, 04:47 PM	I like your idea about the tarrasque, but I'm going to tweak it slightly. If you've read my info about my CS, you'll notice that dragns are extinct. So... The dragons have served as a guard against the invasion of the Lower and Upper Planes, but now that they're extinct, there's nothing stopping the fiends from rampaging across the land. On the elemental planes, they have allied with the Upper and Material Planes in the interest of restoring the balance of the multiverse. Half-elemental warriors, soldiers infused with the power of the Inner Planes hold fast against the fiends in some small pockets of resistance. The lack of wizards and other arcane casters means that more esoteric methods of contacing these planes is going to be a key plot point; ancient rituals and horrible sacrifices will be needed to muster the magical power necessary to Gate in elementals and the like. Alliances with evil races like the salamanders and efreet will still be seen as prefarble to rule by the fiends. On the aberrations: since there aren'tmany aquatic demons or devils, the aboleths really aren't going to do much but try and survive until this whole fiasco is over. Their flavot text in Lords of Madness suggests that they've probably seen this sort of thing before and know it will blow over. The mid flayers, on the other hand, have a lot to lose, since their rule over the Underdark is going to be threatened. The tsochar are really cool, in my opinion, so I want them to play a role in this setting. Assuming they can take over demonic bodies, it would be interesting if one of them took over a balor and slowly allowed it's bretheren to take over a small army of demons for their own nefarious purposes.
Tsochar 12-04-07, 07:43 PM	since there aren't many aquatic demons or devils, the aboleths really aren't going to do much but try and survive until this whole fiasco is over. In FF they go into detail about aquatic Demons, such as the Myrmixicus, which is actually stronger than the Balor, and the wastrilith and I think there was another one. But where do the Stygian variety of Aboleth come into play here? They can fly and they live in Baator, after all.
CryoSilver 12-04-07, 10:40 PM	They're aboleths, doing aholteh things; I don'tthink they'd really care what happens, so long as they survive. I no longer own FIend Folio, so I can't comment on that particular demon.