the way to figure out if your class is overpowered [Archive] - Wizards Community

the way to figure out if your class is overpowered [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rastlin_of_the_tomes
05-01-07, 12:05 PM this is the set up: you are in a 100 by 100 by 100 foot room and you have to face 5 waves, each starting at 1 and going to 10 in number of things in it, for each cr from 1 to 20. here the catch, you use 1 level 15 and you get normal ph2 money amounts, you are only allowed to use the 3 base books and what ever book the class you are using comes from, if it is a ph1 class you may choose any one book from the complete set.
you have 1 month of prep time (game time.) and you get no rest breaks in the battle, however it does take a round for the things to get to you since they start at the edge and you start dead center. running away means you fail and the things thrown at you should be a mix of thing each having its own specailty, like a archon healing the rest or a balor tanking you because he can. if you can get through the whole thing then your setup is offcaly broken and should be banned and/or it was in there from the start. or it wasnt a level 15. PUN PUN IS NOT ALLOWED IN ANYWAY and you can not sell off your items you build in the 1 month to get more money, and the item creation DOES TAKE XP you start with mid-level xp so you do have some room to build without loss of level. good luck and have fun.:D
Araes
05-01-07, 02:23 PM Several thoughts.

Many monsters will take more than one round to make it to you if they don't charge.
Many monsters will not make it to you at all and you would have to go to them - in fact, the size of the arena is a distinct weighting factor for classes that need to close to use their powers.
You might as well just say you can make any item you want if you have the feats and powers to do so, but must pay all of the requisite costs, as most normal characters in real play situations wouldn't be that constricted by time.
The special bar for Pun Pun is silly. If you ran him, obviously he would just win. But then again, so would any member of the 100's challenge, the Hive, the Hulking Hurler, and numerous other builds from the CO boards. Its better just to try them all, see how they do, and let the stats speak for themselves.
This is somewhat haphazardly presented, but a useful form of this could actually be created that would approximate the power level of characters - particularly if done in a simulated environment where you didn't have to keep watch of it (like NWN 1 or 2, one of the Black Isle games, ect....)

To do this, you would just choose one monster randomly per CR to some high CR (somewhere in epic?) .
You would then run consecutive tests over and over with the the class for a large number of runs and see how far up the scale it got each time.
You could then average the total runs and find a standard indicator of power.
It would be best to do this at the maximum level for the class and assuming they took the quickest possible path into the class.
You would need to make sure whatever AI you had controlling it so it used its abilities to their full effect. Particularly for strange or non-standard abilities. Or you could run it yourself as many times as you could stand.
PoorHobo
05-01-07, 08:11 PM This should probably be posted on the Classes and prestige classes forum.

That being said. this won't work, its a waste of time (I mean running various challenges through 15 levels...how long do you think that owuld take?) for anyone trying to balance the class. The best bet, would be to post your class in the appropriate forum, listen to the criticism and praise and see if anyone is willing to playtest your class, besides yourself.

Creating a balanced class takes time and testing in a team enviroment. I could run a paladin through your "test' against only undead of your required CR and win thus the paladin would be broken. I could run a rogue against only constructs and thus would be horribly underpowered.

Start by asking what role does it fill, would someone alwyas choose my class over any other that could also fill that role?
rastlin_of_the_tomes
05-04-07, 09:26 AM This should probably be posted on the Classes and prestige classes forum.

That being said. this won't work, its a waste of time (I mean running various challenges through 15 levels...how long do you think that owuld take?) for anyone trying to balance the class. The best bet, would be to post your class in the appropriate forum, listen to the criticism and praise and see if anyone is willing to playtest your class, besides yourself.

Creating a balanced class takes time and testing in a team enviroment. I could run a paladin through your "test' against only undead of your required CR and win thus the paladin would be broken. I could run a rogue against only constructs and thus would be horribly underpowered.

Start by asking what role does it fill, would someone alwyas choose my class over any other that could also fill that role?

yeah sorry about that ill repost it there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rastlin_of_the_tomes 05-01-07, 12:05 PM	this is the set up: you are in a 100 by 100 by 100 foot room and you have to face 5 waves, each starting at 1 and going to 10 in number of things in it, for each cr from 1 to 20. here the catch, you use 1 level 15 and you get normal ph2 money amounts, you are only allowed to use the 3 base books and what ever book the class you are using comes from, if it is a ph1 class you may choose any one book from the complete set. you have 1 month of prep time (game time.) and you get no rest breaks in the battle, however it does take a round for the things to get to you since they start at the edge and you start dead center. running away means you fail and the things thrown at you should be a mix of thing each having its own specailty, like a archon healing the rest or a balor tanking you because he can. if you can get through the whole thing then your setup is offcaly broken and should be banned and/or it was in there from the start. or it wasnt a level 15. PUN PUN IS NOT ALLOWED IN ANYWAY and you can not sell off your items you build in the 1 month to get more money, and the item creation DOES TAKE XP you start with mid-level xp so you do have some room to build without loss of level. good luck and have fun.:D
Araes 05-01-07, 02:23 PM	Several thoughts. Many monsters will take more than one round to make it to you if they don't charge. Many monsters will not make it to you at all and you would have to go to them - in fact, the size of the arena is a distinct weighting factor for classes that need to close to use their powers. You might as well just say you can make any item you want if you have the feats and powers to do so, but must pay all of the requisite costs, as most normal characters in real play situations wouldn't be that constricted by time. The special bar for Pun Pun is silly. If you ran him, obviously he would just win. But then again, so would any member of the 100's challenge, the Hive, the Hulking Hurler, and numerous other builds from the CO boards. Its better just to try them all, see how they do, and let the stats speak for themselves. This is somewhat haphazardly presented, but a useful form of this could actually be created that would approximate the power level of characters - particularly if done in a simulated environment where you didn't have to keep watch of it (like NWN 1 or 2, one of the Black Isle games, ect....) To do this, you would just choose one monster randomly per CR to some high CR (somewhere in epic?) . You would then run consecutive tests over and over with the the class for a large number of runs and see how far up the scale it got each time. You could then average the total runs and find a standard indicator of power. It would be best to do this at the maximum level for the class and assuming they took the quickest possible path into the class. You would need to make sure whatever AI you had controlling it so it used its abilities to their full effect. Particularly for strange or non-standard abilities. Or you could run it yourself as many times as you could stand.
PoorHobo 05-01-07, 08:11 PM	This should probably be posted on the Classes and prestige classes forum. That being said. this won't work, its a waste of time (I mean running various challenges through 15 levels...how long do you think that owuld take?) for anyone trying to balance the class. The best bet, would be to post your class in the appropriate forum, listen to the criticism and praise and see if anyone is willing to playtest your class, besides yourself. Creating a balanced class takes time and testing in a team enviroment. I could run a paladin through your "test' against only undead of your required CR and win thus the paladin would be broken. I could run a rogue against only constructs and thus would be horribly underpowered. Start by asking what role does it fill, would someone alwyas choose my class over any other that could also fill that role?
rastlin_of_the_tomes 05-04-07, 09:26 AM	This should probably be posted on the Classes and prestige classes forum. That being said. this won't work, its a waste of time (I mean running various challenges through 15 levels...how long do you think that owuld take?) for anyone trying to balance the class. The best bet, would be to post your class in the appropriate forum, listen to the criticism and praise and see if anyone is willing to playtest your class, besides yourself. Creating a balanced class takes time and testing in a team enviroment. I could run a paladin through your "test' against only undead of your required CR and win thus the paladin would be broken. I could run a rogue against only constructs and thus would be horribly underpowered. Start by asking what role does it fill, would someone alwyas choose my class over any other that could also fill that role? yeah sorry about that ill repost it there.