Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Losoyo19 03-19-07, 12:02 AM	Hey guys, I have been given a couple of weeks by a group I got with to come up with an indepth campaign and world. I just wanted some opinions and options on where I can find resources. I am going to be making a weekly newspaper (of sorts) that will help the players to get a feel of both local and broader affairs. The plot I've come up with is thus: The world my players are in is one of complete peace with little need or want for war. But (as most plots go) It hasn't always been like this.. Thousands of years ago, the gods were able to walk among men. More mythological beasts were more prominent at that time Giants, Dragons, Large Spiders, etc.. In time the gods began to abuse those around them. Man and beast were tormented for their simple existence (Yea yea.. not original blah blah). The Dragons, tired of the gods abuse of power, united with the humans and others to defeat the gods. The dragons and their allies lost, but not after alot of damage. The gods banished the Dragons to a realm of hell with a "stitch" for every god that existed. They then saved a select few and killed the humans and repopulated the earth. Fast forward 1000 years. Their hasn't been a war in over 100 years, that anyone is aware of. The players start in a small town with 50-150 people living in it, and at first it doesn't appear that anything is happening. Then a small child appears with burns around him and strange runes.. through a huge adventure scheme the players will find out that a band of orcs are trying to undo the stitches and release the dragons.. who will probably be crazed due to over a thousand years of torture.. All sides will want the child.. good - to stop the stitches.. bad - to open it.. the gods and neutrals - to keep things as they are and a balance.. lots of fun What I need is a world map (possibly with borders already out lined, i can make a story around the already drawn states).. and opinions on what other plot twists.. I really like the main story.. so I will tweak (but not change) it..
bartleby42 03-19-07, 02:41 AM	Few things. 1) Drop the kid. No-one wants to sit around and babysit. I understand that it will take a little more effort, but the child with the markings is a clear deus ex machina and the PCs will realize this upon seeing him. I my experiance the PCs alway resent the deus ex machina and will attempt to kill it. 2) As opposed to giving certiant actions alingments (the "stiches") why not just figure who wants to do what and why. I can come up with "good" reasons to free the dragons and "evil" ones. I know that D&D is about absolutes, but play it loose and let the PCs decide what is right and wrong for once, they might suprise you. 3) As far as a map goes how about this (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/9928/map1.jpg) Ah, the NES one of the best resources for D&D....
Yakman 03-19-07, 01:14 PM	yeah, drop the kid. Moreover, get rid of the "utopia" world you have going on. It sucks and it doesn't make sense. The "stitches" is a good idea--but make them located in particular places. The Dragons were literally stitched under the earth, and they are rising up, breaking apart the stitches on the surface. BUT--the stitches are covered up by dirt, time, rocks, settlements, etc.. They've been forgotten or lost in the hundreds of years since the Dragon War. When they break, they explode, destroying everything on top of them--including the PCs' village in the aftermath of adventure #1. This isn't the first to blow, however, as the PCs will find out in later adventures.... Some of these stitches are in barren wastelands, others are underneath bustling cities, and others are under important sites. No one is quite sure where they all are--but some people know where some of them are. The PCs are in a race to find them and strengthen them before the dragons emerge and destroy the world--this lends itself to the creation of rival parties seeking to break open the stitches, but also to some mad boss fights. Moreover, you can play around with the stitches blowing up--some of them emit crazy radiation that has effects on the locals... some of them open to spawn thousands of rampaging dragonlings (MM4?)... Also, don't make this so clear cut. maybe the gods are real *******s, and some of the people wanting to break the stitches are itching for some righteous revenge. some of the people wanting to break them are apeshit insane. perhaps there's a way to break them without killing lots of people, and some groups are trying to do that--release the dragons themselves so as to avert a mass death incident.
EffigyOfFaith 03-19-07, 02:00 PM	I think a small child as the at the focus of a conflict with global scale could be interesting. Espcially as the child grow older developes sentince and strange powers. I'd back off on the utopia a bit though. Maybe have some civil war and boarder conflict in the recent past just nothing huge. Let's face it from a fantasy prespective peace is kind of boring. The stiches sound like fun and I second Yakman's comments about scattering them acrossed the world.
Losoyo19 03-19-07, 11:52 PM	Little want for peace or war.. doesn't mean a garden of eden either. There is crime, and such.. Just not war or a necessity of it. I would akin it to perhaps pre-911, or something of that nature. I apologize for not being more clear. I like the idea of having the stitches underground and being undone.. The child would actually be a dragon, who was able to get through.. That can definetly be changed, but I want some focal point that the powers want.. Hmmm.. I also like using the gods as ***holes.. I can perhaps encompass them to start to interact directly. Thanks for that map, I think it could be used.. Though I found allot of good ones in Map-a-week.
bartleby42 03-20-07, 02:25 AM	A further note I came up while reading your reply: Do you have a reason why there hasn't been a war for 100 years? A couple of interesting way to handle that: --There is no war!..... only police actions. The empire which controlls most of the world spews out propaganda keeping the general populace convinced that there hasn't ever been a war since the benovlent empire has taken over for them, regardless as to the action of the goverment. This one would work better in a more "modren feel" campian. Where refusal of information can be outragous instead of "Oh, but do we still get to eat?" --An uneasy Peace In order to stop war everyone became an ally, everyone. The mind flayers, the orcs, the halflings, all of them living together under one banner. Once more your required to have a world spanning empire. One that was/is strong enough to defeat any foe, but instead of slaying it's enemies it gave the option of swearing feality, which the "evil races" did. You could make this setting a very tongue in cheek commentary, with law set in motion against discrimination that vary from reasonable "Tusks do not deny rights" to almost insane "Undead is not un-person!" --The ostrich The entire region has stuck it's head in the ground. They have sealed themselves off from the rest of the world, permently (they think). The starting region grew tired of the in-fighting and other antics of the other nations and put up a magical barrier, call it miles of prismatic wall or some such inpassible feature, and went to live thier own lives. You could have the power of the barrier linked to a nearby stitch, which when it fails so does the barrier, and the dark truth of the world becomes clear to the PCs. If you've ever read the sword of truth novels they have several options as to how you can work the magicaly seperated nations. I'm tapped of reasonable ideas for now, but good luck.
EffigyOfFaith 03-20-07, 10:14 AM	What if the child is dragon, but the child doesn't know that they are a dragon. sort of a were-dragon as it were. :twocents: They might have secret about how to keep the stiches intact. Some well meaning idiot priests could have found out the child is a dragon and be trying to kill her. Evil cultist could be trying to keep her safe and the PCs just want to know what she knows about the stiches.
Elthbert 03-20-07, 10:16 AM	Well contrary to others likethe idea of a world which has been at peace for 1000 years. However, there are some concequences to this--- armies are going to be small and reasonably ineffectual, martial skills if they exist at all will probably have become highly ritualized and of limited use on the battlefield (this is precisly what has happened repeatedly on earth in this situation). Your adventurers are going to be strange, particularly your fighters and other combat classes, that is something which you can really play up but you should keep it in mind.
Yakman 03-20-07, 11:04 AM	Well, you could have a situation like that of Tokugawa Japan--warlords controlled the country, trained, kept up their martial skills, but a particular system kept the country at peace for 250 years.
Elthbert 03-20-07, 04:01 PM	Well, you could have a situation like that of Tokugawa Japan--warlords controlled the country, trained, kept up their martial skills, but a particular system kept the country at peace for 250 years. Yes indeed they did, by restricting technology and forbiding any martialtraining except by thier own class--- thier martial skills became over ritualized and inferior. Not only where the samuri not able to defeat a conscript army in the 19th century I would contend they would have been equally inferior to a 16th century japanize army as well.
Yakman 03-20-07, 04:56 PM	Yes indeed they did, by restricting technology and forbiding any martialtraining except by thier own class--thier martial skills became over ritualized and inferior. Not only where the samuri not able to defeat a conscript army in the 19th century I would contend they would have been equally inferior to a 16th century japanize army as well. I think this is an over-simplification of events. Yes, the 19th century samurai rebel army would've been stomped by their 16th century ancestors, for the same reason that the 19th century samurai rebels was defeated by the Meiji army: firearms. The Tokugawa had monopolized the manufacture of firearms in Tokyo after they assumed power. The reason for this was that peasant armies, armed with muskets, were a threat to any status quo that the Tokugawas would establish. It must be remembered that by the late 16th century the Japanese feudal lords controlled the most advanced armies in the world--not only technologically but organizationally. These forces were officered by samurai but manned by musketeers recruited from the peasantry. They would have rolled over any comparably sized army in Europe, and were only thrown out of Korea by daimyo resistance to high taxation and a massive effort by the Ming Dynasty. This same organization returned as the Japanese Army upon the fall of the Shogunate and the establishment of the Meiji regime--upper and middle class samurai officering peasant conscripts armed with imported rifles (the pre-Tokugawa rifles had been manufactured in Japan, however). And you don't bring swords to a gunfight. In essence, the revanchist samurai who revolted against the Meiji (some of whom had played a major role in overthrowing the Shogunate) were fighting the same style of forces that the Tokugawas had outlawed two and a half centuries previous. It was not lack of martial talent that led the samurai rebels to defeat--it was the superior numbers and firepower of their opponents.
Elthbert 03-21-07, 09:49 AM	I think this is an over-simplification of events. Yes, the 19th century samurai rebel army would've been stomped by their 16th century ancestors, for the same reason that the 19th century samurai rebels was defeated by the Meiji army: firearms. The Tokugawa had monopolized the manufacture of firearms in Tokyo after they assumed power. The reason for this was that peasant armies, armed with muskets, were a threat to any status quo that the Tokugawas would establish. It must be remembered that by the late 16th century the Japanese feudal lords controlled the most advanced armies in the world--not only technologically but organizationally. These forces were officered by samurai but manned by musketeers recruited from the peasantry. They would have rolled over any comparably sized army in Europe, and were only thrown out of Korea by daimyo resistance to high taxation and a massive effort by the Ming Dynasty. This same organization returned as the Japanese Army upon the fall of the Shogunate and the establishment of the Meiji regime--upper and middle class samurai officering peasant conscripts armed with imported rifles (the pre-Tokugawa rifles had been manufactured in Japan, however). And you don't bring swords to a gunfight. In essence, the revanchist samurai who revolted against the Meiji (some of whom had played a major role in overthrowing the Shogunate) were fighting the same style of forces that the Tokugawas had outlawed two and a half centuries previous. It was not lack of martial talent that led the samurai rebels to defeat--it was the superior numbers and firepower of their opponents. Of course it is an over simplification of events I am discussing the effect of long periods of peace on a D&D board not writing a historical paper. But a simplification though it may be it is still essentially correct. The samurai method of martial training became highly ritualized and focused on dueling and the like, not warfare. Those are completly differant activities and the Samurai performed in thier rebellion exactly how I would have expected them to with great personal courage and little practical success. I understand very well how the 16th century fuedal japanese armies were designed and equiped, and if you think they would have rolled over a 16th century European army, well lets say you just lost any credibility you might have had up until that point. The 16th century Europeans were not the undisciplined mobs many would have you believe--- and who do you think the japanese got firearms from anyway? I would certianly put a combined arms Habsburg army of the late 16th century up against any Japanese army of the time without concern. But that is niether here nor there. Every nation in history which has experianced long periods of peace has experianced a martial decline the Japanese warrior class is an example of a cuture which tried very had to maintain it's martial prowess, it succeded better than most but it resulted in a highly ritualized martial tradition concerned mainly with dueling and personal combat not warfare. Further, I think that could be a facinating aspect of the plot of the story, particularly if you have a warrior caste who does indeed excel in personal combat but is losing battles to the dragon lead armies.
Yakman 03-21-07, 11:35 AM	I understand very well how the 16th century fuedal japanese armies were designed and equiped, and if you think they would have rolled over a 16th century European army, well lets say you just lost any credibility you might have had up until that point. The 16th century Europeans were not the undisciplined mobs many would have you believe-- and who do you think the japanese got firearms from anyway? I would certianly put a combined arms Habsburg army of the late 16th century up against any Japanese army of the time without concern. Oda Nobunaga and Hideyoshi Toyotomo's armies had co-ordinated orders of fire, ranks, orders of reloading, and better equipment than europeans of the same day. Not until Gustavus Adolphus' reforms in Sweden thirty years later would a European Army have stood up to the Japanese of 1600. While the Japanese had first acquired firearms from the Portugese, they quickly learned how to make them indigenously, and were pouring out thousands of them in a few years. In 1598, a daimyo commanding armies in Korea sent a message home that read something like (doing this from memory here): "Send no more spears. They are useless. Send more guns." Quite a departure from the most feared army in Europe of the day, that of Spain, who relied upon spears and bucklers in combination with firepower. Every nation in history which has experianced long periods of peace has experianced a martial decline the Japanese warrior class is an example of a cuture which tried very had to maintain it's martial prowess, it succeded better than most but it resulted in a highly ritualized martial tradition concerned mainly with dueling and personal combat not warfare.The Zulus had 30 years of peace before stomping the Brits at Isandlwana. Thirty-four years of peace did not blunt the sword of Prussia between the Franco-Prussian War and World War I. What matters is the level of preparadeness for war. The Japanese sure re-learned the ways of war quickly after two and a half centuries of peace. Further, I think that could be a facinating aspect of the plot of the story, particularly if you have a warrior caste who does indeed excel in personal combat but is losing battles to the dragon lead armies. eh... I dunno about losing the battles, but the duels would be pretty cool--half-dragons vs. the local champions.
Elthbert 03-21-07, 01:48 PM	Well I don't really have appropriate time to respond to this adequately. However, quality of equipment is obviously a very subjective issue. European weapons were better made, and thier armour was far far better than that of Japanese. As for the Spainsh relying on spear and buckler--- spear and buckler was not a Spanish method of fighting. Sword and buckler men where certianly used and the pike was a great deal mainly to resist cavalry charges but not spear and buckler. The use of Swordsman was maintianed because they were markedly superior to men armed with matchlocks at close range which wa proved repeatedly when they closed with gun wealding opponants. They also did a nice job of slaughtering pikeman who where given defnesive roles on several occasions. The fact thatthe japanese were able to use guns in such numbers given the technological limitations that guns had at the time is a testement to the fact that they were not fighting enemies as tactically or technologically as those the Europeans were fighting. The armour in use in europe had a real chance of simply deflecting or stoping a bullet in 1600 nothing like that was available in Japan.
Elthbert 03-21-07, 03:10 PM	The Zulus had 30 years of peace before stomping the Brits at Isandlwana. Thirty-four years of peace did not blunt the sword of Prussia between the Franco-Prussian War and World War I. What matters is the level of preparadeness for war. The Japanese sure re-learned the ways of war quickly after two and a half centuries of peace. I would not say that 30- or 40 years is really all that long, people who fought in one war are still alive and old enough to lead in the next for the martial degenration I am talking about one has to have generations of peace. That said I do want to comment on this a bit. First the Zulus area bad example, they hardly stomped the British at Isandlwana in fact that victory was as Pyrrhic as those of Pyrrhus himself. 25,000 men attacked 1300 who were ineptly commanded by a professinal administrator not a soldier, and dispite this the still took huge casualties. Rorkes Drift is a bad example as anyone can have a really heroic stand now and then, but Ulundi and especially Kambula certianly show that they were no match for the hardened British troops. As for Prussia, like I said 35 years of peace is really not that long, but I would say that indeed the Sword of Prussia was dulled quite a bit-- In the franco prussian war the major army of France was crushed at Sedan what 6 weeks after war was declared? The rest of the 10 month war was a campaign which was only needed because the French Republic insisted on continueing the fight and even then the actual fighting was over by January of the following year so maybe 6 months of fighting, ( the war lasted till may but not the fighting). WWI on the other hand was a protracted war which hmmm the Germans LOST!. Yeah I would say thier sword was dulled significantly. The Japanese did indeed learn the ways of war agian quickly, the imported Europeans to train them.