Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rethgryn 04-23-08, 10:29 PM	I've always felt that there were racist implications in certain fantasy races being depicted as either almost always chaotic evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil) or as having inferior intelligence. The world of warcraft setting inverted it by having the dark-skinned nocturnal elves be the nature loving mostly good ones and the Caucasian skinned blood-elves be the evil-curious ones and by also depicting the Orcs sympathetically starting with Warcraft 3. In my current campaign, the premise is that the characters along with thousands of refugees of a major city of Farun being teleported to a mysterious demi-plane and given the task of helping to rebuild civilization while exploring and probing the mysteries of this forgotten world, full of dueling creatures and gods of the far realm. I averted this trope by simply not using Orcs or Drow. The first adventure had them fighting monsters out of the d20 Call of Cthulhu book.
Space_Dragon 04-24-08, 01:11 AM	Doesn't seem like you subverted the trope at all. You just replaced elves and orcs with monsters from Cthulhu d20.
Elemental_Elf 04-24-08, 02:00 AM	I'm sorry but I have to agree with SD, all the OP did was replace Elves and Orcs with Cthulhu creatures. That's not really subverting a troupe, just changing the scenery :( IMO, subverting a troupe would have been using the dark-skinned Orcs as the 'good guys' and the pale-skinned elves as the 'bad guys.' Essentially you'd be taking the concept of the 'Racial Other' and swapping it with the 'Racial Familiar,' thus allowing you to explore racism from a different perspective. :)
rethgryn 04-24-08, 06:50 AM	Well perhaps subvert would be the wrong word. Either way, I'm not ascribing Always Chaotic Evil to entire races that should be intelligent or sentient enough to have human motivations and ethical responsibility. The monsters I chose were not ethically responsible or human-like.
Space_Dragon 04-24-08, 04:04 PM	Well perhaps subvert would be the wrong word. Either way, I'm not ascribing Always Chaotic Evil to entire races that should be intelligent or sentient enough to have human motivations and ethical responsibility. The monsters I chose were not ethically responsible or human-like. And who decides which races "should" be ethically responsible and intelligent and which ones "shouldn't" be? Why should orcs be necessarily more or less ethically responsible or intelligent than Mi-Go or Yithians? The fact that the later are less similar to humans in physical appearance is hardly a justification for this. Unless the party is fighting nothing but animal-level monsters (intelligence of about 4 or below), you are not subverting any tropes. You are just taking an old trope, adding tentacles, and calling it subverted.
Idabrius 04-24-08, 04:54 PM	He's talking about Lovecraftian monstrosities which, by their nature, are alien to the point of unknowableness.
Lord_Tirian 04-24-08, 05:12 PM	I averted this trope by simply not using Orcs or Drow. The first adventure had them fighting monsters out of the d20 Call of Cthulhu book. Real subversion would be still using Orcs or Drow, but not making them "Chaotic Evil". Instead, they fight Orcs and Drow, only to find out, that they're the EVIL, destroying the world and that the orcs/drows only fight for their survival. Cheers, LT.
JulesCARV 04-25-08, 01:32 AM	Personally, my take tends to be that, for instance, orcs aren't "biologically evil," (although they're frequently "culturally evil,") but they are frequently "biologically violent/unsympathetic." Basically, it's like their hormones responsible for aggression, dominance, etc, are ramped up, and their hormones responsible for empathy, kindness, etc, are ramped down. If you raised an orc in a good society to worship Heironeous or something, he wouldn't inevitably switch to worshipping Gruumsh and making blood sacrifices, but he might become a bigotted, intolerant, and pitiless Heironeous worshipper who might rough up people if he catches them disparaging his deity, kill someone who he catches stealing regardless of whatever sob story they tell about being homeless orphans, etc. This is for an "average orc," -- there's individual variation on both sides of that average, of course. As for fantasy tropes I like to subvert: I don't like the one that says that prophecies always turn out to be either true or "imminently true," -- i.e. true if the hero/villain doesn't stop it first. Widely discussed prophecies are never just complete nonsense. I like to sometimes have prophecies ("In the year 732, a rift will open up in the planes and demons will spill forth onto the land.") that are just complete fantasy (in-game fantasy, that is) having no basis in fact. Another trope I dislike: any form of utopianism, dissent from a widely accepted status quo, or aspirations to improve life is presumably delusional or evil: particularly suspicious are aspirations to eliminate or reduce aging and/or death (humans who try to find a route to immortality are evil), acquire knowledge of things people think oughtn't be known (seeking ultimate knowledge means you'll be evil sooner or later), etc. I prefer to have the utopian seekers of immortality or ultimate knowledge be plagued more by failure and incompetence than by ruthlessness and evil. UPDATE: Re: orcs, goblins, drow, etc, that's my personal take, but settings where they're not inherently evil at all, even at a temperamental rather than philosophical level like I propose, can also work fine. If you prefer an Eberron-style "humanoids have no alignment tendencies" setting, that can work fine.
Space_Dragon 04-25-08, 02:56 AM	I agree with Jules. Orcs and goblins aren't inherently evil, imo, but they are still alien beings with biochemical and neurological norms different from our own. Orcs are fighters by nature, and are innately competitive and tough. Goblinoids, on the other hand (in my homebrew), have innate tendencies toward collectivism and pragmatism, and tend to value an individual life less than humans would, but they aren't naturally violent or aggressive. The prophecy trope is justified, I think. The reason being that high level spellcasters in DnD have a plethora of reliable divinations at their disposal. In such an instance, unless the prophet is consciously lying, there is no reason for his predictions to be wrong. I agree wholeheartedly about the "status-quo=good, change=bad" ridiculousness. Attempts to eliminate aging or death just don't happen in my setting, because it was deemed impossible centuries ago. The only ways to evade death are a) divine intervention, and b) undeath. The first is very unlikely. The second is only worth it if you are insane and have a skewed sense of self worth. I also have plenty of corrupt kings and honest nouveau-riche.
Green 04-25-08, 02:13 PM	I think orcs could use a major conceptual overhaul. I really dislike the ubiquitous idea that they're ugly, stupid, savage, and have an innate predisposition to mindless destruction. It hits too close to some real-world attitudes I find problematic. I've always wanted to play orcs that are more like Klingons (sans bumpy foreheads) or Disney's Gargoyles (sans wings and tail). I like the Gargoyles in particular because they have a defining aesthetic that makes them appealing. There is a feral beauty about them reminiscent of lions, tigers, and leopards. At the very least, it does much to counteract the all-too-common tendency to only endow elves with beauty or aesthetic sense.
setekh 04-25-08, 03:04 PM	So "All dark skinned elves are evil" Is racist, but "All Caucasian elves are evil" isn't? Last I checked, Racism worked both ways. Mind, I see no racism in either, as their is no intent in it.
Quenditar 04-25-08, 11:09 PM	This setup sounds not unlike the Dragon Quest console RPG series, with humans setting forth to rid the world of monsters led by some monster chief or demon lord. As the series has gone on, monsters have gotten a bit more sympathetic (aided by some having the ability to speak Human), to the point where I wonder why someone hasn't turned the world on its head and made a game about the heroic struggle of Necrosaro to make the world safe for monsters. That might be a subversion. As for orcs, is it just me, or are slow-breeding races usually good and quick-breeding races always evil? Is there some subliminal fear of being overrun by sheer numbers?
rethgryn 04-26-08, 05:23 PM	So "All dark skinned elves are evil" Is racist, but "All Caucasian elves are evil" isn't? Last I checked, Racism worked both ways. Mind, I see no racism in either, as their is no intent in it. That is actually an inversion, or possibly a parody
annoyinglizardvoice 04-26-08, 06:56 PM	What exactly is a trope? If it's the sort of thing I think it is, then I make orcs highly honourable (although in a slightly stage way), gargoyles are reflexively protective of anyone living in the same area as them and general nice if you don't rub them the wrong way and elves long lifespans (near infinate in my games) cause them to no longer be able to see the value of the lives of shorter lived races.
Eldritch_Lord 04-26-08, 08:47 PM	What exactly is a trope? A trope is a commonly-used theme or motif in literature; it has a negative connotation in many cases, referring to a cliche or "schtick" that is seen to have been overused. Things like "elves live a really long time," "colored dragons are evil, metal dragons are good," and "arcane and divine magic are separate" are examples of D&D tropes.
The Great Alchemist 04-26-08, 09:05 PM	Personally, I like to abandon the "evil race" concept entirely and make every race presented somewhat empathetic. Sometimes that is hard to do because (non-human) races in D&D have long since been based around universal traits and stereotypes. That's really why I don't like using on-human humanoid races at all, because its too easy to pigeonhole the entire race. I think that its more interesting to have the enemy be a nation of humans. Not a nation of demon worshiping necromancers who wring their hands all the time, but a nation like those that have existed in history. Nations where the majority of human citizens just want to get on with their lives and not to cause harm to anybody and what ever hatreds or prejudices they have about others come about from circumstances beyond their control. You can still have evil individuals but not entire groups that are one dimensionally evil. You can still have culture shock, different customs, different belief systems, bigotry, etc, but it means more because its humans doing it and not just because all humanoids with pointy ears have x, y, and z traits
annoyinglizardvoice 04-27-08, 05:57 PM	A trope is a commonly-used theme or motif in literature; it has a negative connotation in many cases, referring to a cliche or "schtick" that is seen to have been overused. Things like "elves live a really long time," "colored dragons are evil, metal dragons are good," and "arcane and divine magic are separate" are examples of D&D tropes. Thanks for the clarification mate. I agree with Great Alchemst that the "evil race" cliche can go. I doubt that any race that is pure evil will survive in the long run (apart from humans that is).
Johnathan_Vagabond 04-29-08, 06:29 PM	There is one trope I don't subvert. I savage it. Undead. Mindless undead like skeletons and zombies aren't really mindless. They're slow, often dim, obedient, and trustworthy. Like dogs (dogs are probably smarter). Even better, rituals can slowly return them to their pre-mortem levels of consciousness. Vampires, Mummies, Morghs, Ghasts, Ghouls, Ghosts, Spectres, Phantoms, Liches, etc are complex beings that still hold to ethical values. The violent, wicked ones were either violent and wicked in life or have been driven to insanity by their immortality. Sometimes though, to turn subvert my own trope, creatures that were wicked and vile in life are shocked by the peacefulness of their unlife. All of the sudden you aren't the king, you don't have to rule, no duties, no assassins, no courtiers, no spies, no intruige, no politics, no diplomats. "My god, I should have died sooner!" they say. Often undeath turns into a chance to meditate on some of the real meanings of life (and after/unlife). Some of the greatest philosophy comes from undead thinkers. An idea I've wanted to include in a campaign for a while but haven't gotten around to it is this: "Undeath is the stage between life and afterlife. Everyone goes through it, its just normal, and how you die determines what you become in the afterlife. People may even arrange to die in a certain way to ensure they arise in the form they want. The PCs slay a band of marauding gnolls. 1 day later the gnolls get back up as ghouls, decide they'd like to see Paris in the spring time, and bugger off to France."
revont_16 04-29-08, 06:47 PM	The insane villian. They can have odd habits or mannerisms bit I will never use insanity as a motive. I also dispise the fact that some types of magic, mostly necromancey make someone evil or insane. One statement that was posted that I have to agree with is the comment that elves ae the only ones with natural beauty compared with everyone else.
Eldritch_Lord 04-29-08, 07:45 PM	1 day later the gnolls get back up as ghouls, decide they'd like to see Paris in the spring time, and bugger off to France." That brings up another one--the real-country-but-not countries. Oh, look, another nation that's Japan...but isn't, see, 'cause it has a different name, and they aren't really all samurai and ninjas....The Forgotten Realms are the worst, with its not-Asian countries, its not-South-American countries, its not-Middle-Eastern countries, etc. The best way to subvert that one is, if you absolutely must stereotype real-life cultures, combine and juxtapose stereotypes that you wouldn't normally expect. So your dwarves speak with a Scottish accent and worship a pantheon eerily similar to the Norse one? Swap things around--replace the Norse pantheon with a Native American-ish one to fit their earth affinity, give them samurai and shogun and other snippets of Japan to fit in with their honorable and orderly nature, and let them speak Latin. When players see a dwarf in scale mail carrying a katana, addressing superior officers as Praetor and Imperator, and speaking in an Italian accent about the temple to Moradin Two-Hammers and Clangeddin Beard-Like-Clouds, they won't think it's "just another dwarf town."
Space_Dragon 04-30-08, 08:06 AM	I agree with Eldritch_Lord. It is possible to be inspired by earth history without simply copypasting human cultures into DnD. When I make up a new nation or culture for my setting, I usually take a historical civilization that fits the concept, change various aspects of it to bring it to congruency with a fantasy setting, and then mod the hell out of it, swapping out elements of it for core DnD ideas, concepts from other cultures, or totally original ideas of my own. To follow EL's lead, let's look at my main dwarven nation. There are other dwarf civilizations in my world (another thing I despise is each race having a homogenous culture), but this is the biggest and most economically important one. To start out, I thought about the concept of dwarves and looked for a historical analogue. Dwarves are lawful, martial, and honorable, and their nations are (according to the PHB) made up of multiple tribes. Sounds like an idealized version of medieval Japan to me. Deciding to follow that lead, I give the dwarves a feudal system, each tribe claiming loyalty to a certain noble family. To reflect their good tendencies as well as their lawful ones, I allow them more social mobility than the Japanese did; warriors with commoner backgrounds can be granted knight/samurai status by the nobility if they prove themselves. Finally, I decide that dwarves are bigtime rice farmers; not only does it fit their growing concept, but it also makes sense, since rice is easy to grow in mountainous environments. Replace dwarven ale with dwarven saki. The dwarves aren't just feudal Japanese lookalikes, though. For one thing, they live underground. That in itself is going to change their culture a fair amount, amirite? Being mountain-dwellers, the dwarves are going to have access to a lot of earth-based resources, like marble, clay, and metal ores. This is the key to their economic position in the world; no one outside of the underdark can harvest stone or metal as easily or efficiently as the dwarves can. On the other hand, dwarves are going to need to get other resources (most importantly lumber, as they need a lot of firewood to heat their underground homes during the winter, and textiles for obvious reasons) from outside. Japanese isolationism goes out the window. Knowing that its hard for other races to reach their mountain homes, enterprising dwarven merchants travel to the nearby human and elvish lands by wagon and by ship, selling clay, ricewine, and purified metal and buying textiles, exotic foodstuffs (especially meat), and timbers. Particularly, dwarves like to trade with the elves, since elves have no way of getting metal on their own, and can provide the dwarves with the best lumber. Dwarves and elves are historic trade partners. There's one fantasy trope subverted. These active trade relations are going to prevent dwarves from being as insular and xenophobic as they are in some settings. Indeed, human and elvish craftsmen might often journey to the dwarven halls to study metallurgy and stonecutting under the dwarven masters, allowing for a fair amount of cultural diffusion. According to the PHB and MM, dwarves have a lot of enemies, like giants, goblinoids, and orcs. This is where their martial aspects come into play. Almost all dwarves are proficient with a martial weapon (using their first level feat), most likely the warhammer. I decide to lose the axe affinity, since there's no reason an underground race would be fond of axes. Replace dwarven waraxe with dwarven warhammer, and have it (and the urgosh) do bludgeoning instead of slashing damage. They might also use pickaxes and warpicks; these weapons are now dwarven instead of gnomish (perhaps I'll give gnomes the axe fetish in exchange). Also, dwarves use longbows. It makes sense, since they can snipe their enemies from the hilltops while they climb the slope to get to the dwarven cities. One more reason for them to need wood so much. Finally, since they have economic interests abroad, I see dwarves sending armies to help out their allies when they fall under orcish or goblinoid attack. Maybe there are dwarven mercenary clans that do this full time? Well...not mercenaries exactly. They make a profit doing what they do, but it is also out of loyalty to the dwarven rulers. Basically, the dwarves loan out troops to their allies, sometimes for extended periods, and allow said troops to make a substantial cut of the profits. Let's get into internal society now. We know that dwarves have a class system, and that merchants have a lot of financial power. Maybe the merchant and samurai classes are on a par? Children of well to do dwarven families might be encouraged to become traders or warriors, hiring lots of common craftsmen, miners, porters, and soldiers in the process. Maybe some of the merchant barons are also great fighters, allowing them to protect their ships and caravans from bandits. Middle class families are really important to the dwarven infastructure now, since they provide the brunt of both the economic and military leadership. With the social mobility I mentioned before, dwarven commoners probably strive to outdo their competitors and make it into the privileged middle class. Dwarves are usually depicted as very goal-oriented, so this fits their longstanding flavor. This is looking like a very entrepreneurial and laze-fair society. That doesn't really fit the image of lawful, regimented dwarves. If I want to keep my dwarves lawful (which I do), I'll need to give them a centralized government that keeps everyone in line. Since power is concentrated among commercial/military families, and that they provide most of the dwarven industrial impetus, I think fascism works well here. When I say fascism, I don't mean genocidal, racist, totalitarian nazis. I mean it in the old sense of the term, specifically "a nationalistic government that rules through economic control." The tribal rulers (we'll call them "shoguns" until we can think of a more original name) are in charge of telling the middle class who to trade with, what to buy, and what to sell, as well as fixing prices and organizing multiple industries to work to maximum synergy. The dwarves obey these commands out of both practicality (as the shoguns keep dwarven society from spiraling out of control), and a sense of nationalism and honor which is strongly ingrained in their culture. Hell, let's go hardcore fascist and say that the shoguns own all of the wealth, paying the middle classers as much of it as they think they've earned; the middle classers are now basically pseudopods of the shogunate. Maybe some particularly wealthy and less than honorable middle-classers plot to undermine the shogun's power. Good, creates lots of adventure hooks for PC's. Since the shoguns have a lot of accounting work to do, they probably hire bureaucrats to do all the economic projections and related paperwork. Cool, bureaucracies are lawful. Also dilutes the Japanese flavor with a little hint of Chinese, amirite? Each shogun family rules a tribe of dwarves, which probably means a handful of towns and mines, as well as one or more major cities. I think a more centralized authority figure would help flesh this out some more. Dwarves are usually portrayed as fairly religious, and having lots of clerics. Maybe there's a theocratic component to the central government? Before we go further on this note, it looks like we need to flesh out dwarven religion. Dwarves are associated with ancestor worship in many fantasy novels and games. That certainly fits the Japan inspiration. However, they also have full-fledged gods like Moradin and Clangeddin, who are usually portrayed in a slightly Norse manner. Maybe there are two, overlapping cults among the dwarves; the cult of the gods, and the cult of the ancestors. The clerics of each have different responsibilities in dwarven society. The ancestor cultists are in charge of recording history, educating the young, and, of course, funerary care of the dead. The god cultists are more concerned with the future; they receive prophecies from the dwarven deities, act as police and enforcers of the shogunate's divinely-approved laws, and lead the defense of the dwarven halls against enemies. Clerics of Moradin are holy warriors and police, while clerics of the ancestors are librarians and teachers. The ancestor cultists use the varient "cloistered cleric" class from Complete Divine (maybe it was in a different sourcebook; I'll have to check), while the others are standard PHB clerics. A society ruled by shogun/tycoons and policed by religious knights? Sounds like a perfect place for a divine emperor to rule. Let's combine all the aspects of dwarven secular and religious power we have so far. The emperor is a non-hereditary position, being elected from among the shoguns kind of like the pope being elected from among the cardinals. But its not the other shoguns who choose; that leaves too much room for corruption. Its the priesthood who decide which Shogun should take the place of the deceased emperor. First, we have a high priest of Moradin make inquiries of the candidates, testing their knowledge, piety, and competence. Then, the candidates descend to the burial vaults of the ancestors, guided by the Ancestor Cultists, to see what the ancient dead have to say. I think a cinematic and epic challenge by the spirits of the dead dwarven emperors (who animate statues of themselves and address the shogun in person) would be awesome, not to mention it gives me an opportunity to use that Dwarven Ancestor mini. When the clerics and the honored dead arrive at their conclusion, the new emperor is chosen. Being emperor is a big job, since he is responsible for the unity and cooperation of the tribes. He also has a lot of power over the priesthood; much moreso than the shoguns do. Now, to make the Japan references less obvious, a few name changes are in order. In the Warcraft universe, dwarven lords are called "Thranes." I like that, its Tolkeinesque. Shoguns are now called thranes. Samurai will just be called "warlords." The emperor can be called the Chosen, to reflect his divinely appointed status. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how I got my honor-obsessed, religious, mercantile, fascistic, saki-chugging dwarves. A similar thought process led to my portrayal of the other races.
Eldritch_Lord 04-30-08, 03:01 PM	:clap: Well done, Space_Dragon! I really like it. To increase the fascism/theocracy synergy, it would be really interesting if Moradin were a god specifically of working precious metals, rather than crafting in general, and the other dwarven gods are represented by gems, precious metals, coins, etc. That lets you bring in a whole bunch of economically-inspired religious metaphors and such, and makes the fascist economy a gods-given system. That would make the common dwarves happy to obey the fascist control, and it would make trade and moneymaking religious duties, for some interesting plot hooks. Hmm...I might have to use that for my dwarves....
Space_Dragon 04-30-08, 03:26 PM	To increase the fascism/theocracy synergy, it would be really interesting if Moradin were a god specifically of working precious metals, rather than crafting in general, and the other dwarven gods are represented by gems, precious metals, coins, etc. That lets you bring in a whole bunch of economically-inspired religious metaphors and such, and makes the fascist economy a gods-given system. That would make the common dwarves happy to obey the fascist control, and it would make trade and moneymaking religious duties, for some interesting plot hooks. Thanks. I'm glad you like it. Good idea about Moradin "crafting" the other dwarven gods for his own benefit. I haven't given a lot of thought to the racial deities yet, and that certainly would make sense for the dwarves. Of course, this might not be the literal truth; after all, there are other dwarven cultures besides the High Dominion (the one I described above). Other dwarf nations might have differing interpretations of the gods, with the real truth being somewhat elusive.
Eldritch_Lord 04-30-08, 09:42 PM	Of course, this might not be the literal truth; after all, there are other dwarven cultures besides the High Dominion (the one I described above). Other dwarf nations might have differing interpretations of the gods, with the real truth being somewhat elusive. Well, of course, but as far as that nation is concerned, that's The Way It Is. Now, it could also be a fabrication by the high priests to stay in power or the like as well; plot hooks abound.
ShatteredSun 05-01-08, 09:17 AM	And Space_Dragon is officially awesome. I'm most annoyed by the Tolkinesqe 'Elves are Awesome!' trope that high fantasy seems to accept as dogma. It is a real shame because Tolkien did invent something very special, but it would seem that the best things about Tolkien get shamelessly copied down to every last detail. I run two races of elves in my Norse campaign. The Svartálfar (history or literature buffs will likely point out that this probably meant dward . . . I know. But I already have dwarves!) aren't portrayed as Drow, merely as a race of elves willing to live on Midegard with mortals. 'dark', in this case, simply means further from the Gods. I've always thought that a long lived race would be generally disgusted with humanity, so they treat humans like children. The Ljósálfar, on the other hand, I portray like Trooping or Heroic Fairies from Celtic mythology. Being temporally and metaphysically superior to humans, they have no problem interfering with life for fun.
Admiral_Lourve 05-05-08, 08:22 AM	And Space_Dragon is officially awesome. I'm most annoyed by the Tolkinesqe 'Elves are Awesome!' trope that high fantasy seems to accept as dogma. It is a real shame because Tolkien did invent something very special, but it would seem that the best things about Tolkien get shamelessly copied down to every last detail. I run two races of elves in my Norse campaign. The Svartálfar (history or literature buffs will likely point out that this probably meant dward . . . I know. But I already have dwarves!) aren't portrayed as Drow, merely as a race of elves willing to live on Midegard with mortals. 'dark', in this case, simply means further from the Gods. I've always thought that a long lived race would be generally disgusted with humanity, so they treat humans like children. The Ljósálfar, on the other hand, I portray like Trooping or Heroic Fairies from Celtic mythology. Being temporally and metaphysically superior to humans, they have no problem interfering with life for fun. I'm currently trying to subvert the 'Elves are Awesome! trope, my world has a race called Oldfair that are a mix of fauns, satyrs, high, dark and wood elves that are down-right vicious and full of malice at times. They are beautiful, but like a people that lives with nature should be, they are barbarians that live a life full of superstition and ritual. They are weak and often cowardly.
Aneutralshadeofblack 05-05-08, 10:24 AM	The problem with subverting "Elves Are Awesome!" is that the very nature of elves leaves us with very few choices to do so. Either they are, in almost every aspect, better than the other races, or they're not elves. If you start taking some bits out, but leaving others, then they're either a dead race or a master race - superhuman elves with the same lifespan as humans would probably be all-conquering gits, whereas elves who are nothing but long-lived humans would have died out a long time ago. The fey are not elves; they're fey. This is why I prefer to leave elves out of my settings entirely (with the added benefit that I get rid of the annoying and laughable tree-hugging bits), although I sometimes have another master race stand in (in which case, they get to be the dominant race, and not look like elves). Actually, that gives me an idea - a setting in which half-elves are the dominant race, having outbred the elves and outskilled the humans, and in which the elves are extinct and the humans are little more than slaves under the "benevolent" rule of the half-elves (who quite obviously get a better name). And speaking of half-elves, the "everything can breed with everything, and to Hell with genetics" approach to races is one particular trope that gets on my nerves.
Space_Dragon 05-05-08, 02:58 PM	The problem with subverting "Elves Are Awesome!" is that the very nature of elves leaves us with very few choices to do so. Either they are, in almost every aspect, better than the other races, or they're not elves. If you start taking some bits out, but leaving others, then they're either a dead race or a master race - superhuman elves with the same lifespan as humans would probably be all-conquering gits, whereas elves who are nothing but long-lived humans would have died out a long time ago. Orly? Am I going to have to post my main elvish nation too?
Admiral_Lourve 05-05-08, 03:12 PM	Yeah, Aneutralshadeofblack? I think I'll cut in here and say I've read enough fiction, good and bad, to say that elf is just a term with some vague connotations attached to it. I can make any kind of elf I want. :P
ShatteredSun 05-05-08, 05:36 PM	I feel the need to point out that in terms of our own history, the word 'elf' can describe any number of creatures we've adapted into RPGs. They range from human sized powerful beings alluded to in Norse mythology to dwarf-like creatures in Icelandic and Scandinavian mythology (the difference between Norse mythology and Scandinavian mythology: Norse mythology refers to a pagan mythology that exists in the mainstream until around 600-800 AD, whereas Scandinavian mythology developed after that, incorporating elements of Christianity). Also, it is worth pointing out that elves in English folklore were very similar to Fairies or Sidhe.
Eldritch_Lord 05-05-08, 08:42 PM	Orly? Am I going to have to post my main elvish nation too? You don't have to...but go ahead and do it anyway.
infernos7 05-05-08, 08:56 PM	For my subversion of the "elves are awesome" trope, I used the "Blood Elf" sect. These homicidal maniacs take elven racism to new hights by advocating "holy" war against the "slave races." (humans, gnomes, dwarves, et cetera) They are not a subrace, but a sect. they pick their new initiates from elven families with long histories of bigotry and blood elf membership. The blood elves are CE, and worship Damien, the god of pain and torture in my cosmology. They have special knowledge of combat styles designed to inflict pain, as per the will of their god. They are also self-flagellating, making them even less hardy than normal elves, as they dye their clothes with their own blood. They are also the priesthood caste for my other elves, perverting worshippers of Corellon L. into priests of Damien. The blood elves are extremely racist and cruel, often torturing (human) prisoners without reason or desire for information. The blood elves are slightly mutated, giving them fragile but elongated bones and extremely pale skin. So what do you think?
Aneutralshadeofblack 05-06-08, 03:39 AM	Orly? Am I going to have to post my main elvish nation too? No but yes? I'm sure everyone would appreciate it. :P I was referring to the standard fantasy elves - after all, you can take anything and call it an "elf" if you want to look at it that way. I'm aware of the historical connotations, but very few of those actually fit into the trope. Taking European medieval fairy elves and calling the trope subverted hardly works - the "source material" has to be recognisable for the trope to be subverted in the first place (i.e. "Always Alignment X" still requires a) sentient creatures and b) alignment - granted, the restrictions are a bit easier to meet than "Elves Are Awesome"). I'd argue that "elves are not goody-two-shoes tree-huggers" isn't exactly a subversion of the trope - they're still better than humans, and therefore still fit the trope (but it's still an interesting idea). My two eurocents, either way. Edit: a possible subversion of the trope as I see it might be a setting in which the elves are in a Balkans-like political situation of constant border wars amongst multiple small, politically irrelevant nations and are practically extinct due to this. It subverts the elves having better society, government and political presence part of the trope without subverting what actually makes them elves, i.e. the fact that they're superhuman.
Space_Dragon 05-06-08, 11:26 AM	No but yes? I'm sure everyone would appreciate it. Well, since I'm apparently popular... The problem I had with elves is that they try to be too many things at once. I had the idea of condensing the numberless elven subraces into two seperate lineages (one nature-loving, one highly magical) long before the 4E elf/eladrin split was announced. Its a pretty logical fix, I guess. As with the dwarves, each of these races has one or two "main" homelands, with various less important nations scattered throughout the world. I'm still in the early stages of making up the eladrin heartland and culture (all I know is that its going to be very cold and snowy. Will probably end up heavily Norse-inspired), but the elves I've got down. To start off, I looked at the traits most closely associated with elves. They live in forests, have small communities (usually ruled by a chieftan or monarch), and worship nature-type gods. On further thought, I decided that the elves might want to live in places with lots of ambient plant and animal life, on account of their affinity with primordial life. That means the main elf homeland is probably in a tropical rainforest. I like that, it keeps the forest theme, but puts a slightly different spin on it. Let's make them darker skinned to deal with the tropical sun; will help differentiate them from the pale-skinned eladrins. Hmmm. Dark skinned...live in jungles...small, monarchic communities...I think my template for the elves is going to be the Maya. As with the dwarven nation based on Japan, I'll be cleaning up the historical version to make it more player-friendly. The human sacrifices are right out, of course, as is the pathological deforestation (the elves can integrate living trees into their architecture, substantially reducing their lumber quota). One thing I like about the Maya are the big, stone monuments and platforms built like islands in the jungle. The elves are going to have to have those. Most elven communities are made from a mixture of stone and wood (both living and dead). Maybe some important temples or fortresses can be more prominent...we'll get back to that later. Like the Maya, elves live in city-states of a sort. There are also nomadic tribes that roam the jungle between the sedentary groups, acting as traders and newsbearers. The nomadic ones don't make buildings, obviously. Each city state is ruled by a royal family, usually the descendents of the city's founder (or at least claiming to be). No central government or emperor-figure like the dwarves have. Dwarves are lawful. Elves are chaotic. Chaotic probably implies that the royals don't have that much power. Instead of obeying protocols and conforming to codified, bureaucratic formulas, each elf has a voice (though not necessarily an equal one) in all affairs. Instead of following the letter of the law, they follow the ruler's proclomations in the way they best understand and see fit to do so. If someone is deviating far enough to be disruptive, he had better be able to come up with a good explanation. In this way, elvish social structure is more tribal than civilized, more able to function on a case-by-case basis than other societies. Of course, a system like this can only work when you have a small population. Here's another big difference between the elves and the Maya. Elves have (very) long lifespans, an extremely slow rate of birth, and a serious fetish for trees. They aren't going to be clearing huge swaths of forest for agriculture. Elvish "farms" are really just regions of jungle that have been goaded into hosting a high concentration of edible plants and animals. This might be pretty and nondisruptive, but its also very inefficient compared to the irrigated fields of the other races. The elves have to wander much further from their homes to feed themselves, and each city can never have more than a few hundred people. In that sense, elves don't really have cities. Just towns. Combined with their informal legal and administrative traditions, this is going to keep elves from ever being a numerous people. Indeed, considering the amount of land they occupy, they are very, very few. This led me to a conundrum. There are a lot of scary creatures in the jungles of DnD, and player races usually depend on numbers and the occasional adventuring party to hold their ground. Elves don't have numbers, so that leaves us with option B. With their ridiculous lifespans, elves have more opportunity than most races to train. Take into account the dangers of their homeland, and the fact that elves are martial enough to have automatic weapon proficiencies by RAW, and it makes sense that elves spend hundreds of years learning to defend themselves. On an individual basis, the average elf is much more powerful than the average human or orc, simply by virtue of having more experience. If the typical human muscleman is a first or second level warrior, then the average elvish warrior is fourth or fifth level. Of course, younger elves are still first level, but they aren't the ones who are sent into harm's way...unless they are PC's of course. Note to self: if starting at first level, PC elves must be very young. Definitely less than a century. Small groups of unusually skilled and well-trained warriors. Sounds vaguely Spartan, doesn't it? Yes. Yes, it really does. Elves wear medium armor when they aren't trying to be sneaky out in the forest, and favor tower shields and spears when fighting other humanoids. Of course, they also like bows. A lot. That's good; a nice mixture of classic Mesoamerican and Greek fighting styles. Makes them less of a copypasta. To move their more heavily armored troops around, let's give them riverboats, and have the locations of their towns and trade routes rely heavily on waterways. There's ample historical precedent for this. Also, since swords aren't really their thing anymore, they lose the automatic sword proficiency, and become proficient with spears and tridents instead. Makes them more phalynx-ish, and is also practical for hunting wild boars and the like, which elves probably do fairly often. Mmmm. Pork chops. Let's talk about elvish cuisine some more. An interesting inversion of the usual tropes (lol, another one down) is that my dwarves are bigger grain-eaters, and elves are more carnivorous. Usually, dwarves have big platters of red meat at every meal (where the hell are they raising cattle?), and elves have some Tolkeinesque breadlike substance of mysterious origin. Not anymore. Boars, taipars, deer, rodents, jungle birds, snakes, alligators, tortoises, elves know that their natural place in the jungle is that of a predator. Part and parcel with respect for nature, amirite? They harvest fruit, nuts, and yams, of course, as well as a little bit of maize and other jungle veggies, but they still have meat more often than most races. They don't deplete the wildlife population on account of their relatively low needs; elves are lighter and burn less energy than humans (justifying the -2 constitution penalty), and so they don't need to eat as often. Hmmm. Maybe elf dietary habits are sort of reptillian-ish. They only eat every couple of days or so, but when they do, they gorge themselves. Naturally, the few days before the feast will be spent gathering food for it. Makes them more fantastic and alien, which I like in fantasy races. The hunting means that cute animals don't love and follow them around like in most settings, to which I saw "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWW." Speaking of alien, let's get something straight. Elves are NOT "hawt." Few things in mainstream fantasy annoy me as much as hawt elves. Elves are supposed to be thin, wispy, and, well, elfin. Some might find that attractive, but I don't. No more barely-dressed elf girls with gigantic cleavage either; simply because that's not "elfin" in the mythological sense. As their stats imply, elves are thin, wiry, and extremely agile. Maybe they look sort of treelike? Brown, rough-textured skin, long and thin arms and legs, and perhaps greenish hair and eyes. Yeah. Green eyes are awesome. Elves have green eyes. Making them awesome by extension. Not hawt, though. We established last time that elves and dwarves trade a lot. The dwarves provide metal and stone for their buildings and weapons. The elves provide wood and cloth. Cloth...let's give them silkworms to make it more blatant. Elves are good at making textiles, whether made of plant fibers or silkworm secretions. Maybe +2 to Craft checks working with cloth? Sure, why not. Extend that to woodwork as well. In general, elves are good at working with organic materials. Nature guys, remember? We're done with the practical stuff, I think. Now for culture. We've established that elves are pretty laze-fair, which gives them a lot of freedom to do different things, but cuts down even more on their manpower. Huh. I really want elves to have bigass stone pyramids buried in the deepest jungles and swamps, though. To use as adventure sites, if for no other reason. Okay, there can be exceptions. Multiple principalities (that's what I've decided to call each town. Elf leaders are "princes" then, I guess) might work together to build a colossal monument after a major historical event. These can be important cultural and religious landmarks. Maybe elven priests go to these structures to meditate or to commune with certain gods? Maybe at certain times of year. Perhaps some of the stone monoliths can be like stonehenge; primitive, solar calenders, raised on immense platforms of earth above the jungle. Helps them keep time, seeing as they don't have seasons to go by in the jungle. Flying overhead, one might never see an actual elf, but you'd see these big, mysterious temple-like stone and earth buildings sticking out of the trees every few miles or so. Like Ankhor Waht. That's a neat image. Elves aren't all that good at manual labor, though. Even assuming that it takes them a long time to build stuff (time is their most abundant resource, after all), its hard for a low-con race to move stone and brick blocks around, even assuming that the jungle itself is helping them (living trees growing into foundations, etc). As such, the elves might hire other creatures to do at least some of the digging and carrying. They might hire dwarven craftsmen on occasion, but they shouldn't have to rely on them...not to mention that mindless digging and moving rocks around is sort of a waste of their engineering prowess. How about lizardfolk! They make great unskilled laborers, and they also live in the jungle. Elves hire lizardfolk to help with this kind of thing. To tell the truth, maybe the lizardfolk can replace (or live alongside) the nomadic elf tribes that move between the principalities. Some lizardfolk tribes are hostile, of course, but others would learn the advantages of cooperation with the elves. +1 racial diversity. A few parting notes. Elves don't really have social classes, so pretty much any occupation is open to anyone. Hunters, craftsmen, priests, etc. Even the children of the prince or princess might not be that privileged, unless they are the heir to the throne. Clerics and druids are respected, but not formalized or organized, and with no dictatorial power. Anyone can become a priest, and priests are (often) listened to because they tend to have good ideas. No more, no less. For aesthetic reasons, we'll have elves wear lots of furs, snakeskins, and the like, with some clothing and armor even being made of living plant matter. Lots of feathers, too. Feathers are an important decorative item for most forest-dwelling cultures IRL, so the elves will collect them. I'm now imagining their Spartan-style helmets having manes of bird feathers instead of horsehair plumes. So, those are my mostly-maya-but-also-kind-of-greek-and-cambodian elves.
Eldritch_Lord 05-06-08, 07:36 PM	So, those are my mostly-maya-but-also-kind-of-greek-and-cambodian elves. :clap: :clap: :clap: Were you already using these for a campaign, or is this all stream-of-consciousness?
Space_Dragon 05-06-08, 08:24 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: Were you already using these for a campaign, or is this all stream-of-consciousness? I've had them in the works for a long time. My campaign world is still very much under construction, and I've only managed to run one-shots in it so far. One of these short adventures involved tracking a renegade half elf whose father came from the area described above, but the PC's never went there themselves.
Eldritch_Lord 05-06-08, 08:45 PM	I've had them in the works for a long time. My campaign world is still very much under construction, and I've only managed to run one-shots in it so far. I sympathize. My more off-the-wall campaign world ideas I have to save for one-shots (or perhaps two- or three-shots) and use a more universal/inclusive world for the majority of my campaigns.
6163 05-07-08, 12:48 AM	There are a few races I've changed up a bit in my setting. For some reason I wanted to include some Myst inspired fantasy and themed psionic powers around them. I got rid of many of their flashier techniques (like energy powers) from the Psionic power list but likewise taking planar spells away from magic so that it would purely be a psionic talent. Needing a race who is a master of this refurbished psionic craft, and personally finding expanded psionic races unfitting for the new flavor, I took the under-appreciated Gnomes and tweaked them a bit. Now Gnomes are the unorthodox masters of planer science-fantasy lore, trading their magic affinities for two free power points. Orcs are a bit more sympathetic, the problem with savage orcs is that orcish society does not value life more than it values pride and warfare. Orcs declare war and raid villages for fun and expect no hard feelings to be had. Orcs with higher wisdom and a good alignment understand that the other races value life more and, even if they don't understand why, won't kill non-orcs for fun. Such orcs are often welcome in city guards and make good pay, any city would jump on the opportunity to have guards not only known for their strength but who are even more effective in the night when guards are needed more. Half-orcs are similar, but without the wisdom penalty they fit in and understand multiple cultures easier.
Aneutralshadeofblack 05-07-08, 01:51 PM	So, those are my mostly-maya-but-also-kind-of-greek-and-cambodian elves. Those are still elves, though - they're superhuman (and live incredibly long), and they're nature-loving. It's an interesting variant on elves, and a well thought-out one at that, but I wouldn't call it a subversion of the trope. elves are pretty laze-fair Incidentally, nozhfgpizjdfzhguhzeh. That's spelt laissez-faire.
Space_Dragon 05-07-08, 02:10 PM	Those are still elves, though - they're superhuman (and live incredibly long), and they're nature-loving. It's an interesting variant on elves, and a well thought-out one at that, but I wouldn't call it a subversion of the trope. Would you call my dwarves subversion of a trope either? They're still lawful, they still live underground, they still are good miners, and they still fight orcs and goblins a lot. The difference is that I have a justification for them being the way they are, and I changed them in various ways to make a more believable society than the one usually attributed to them. My elves, like the dwarves, are true to the theme of standard elves, but more earthly and fine-tuned and less godlike. They aren't "superhuman and long lived." They seem superhuman because they are long lived. An elf isn't naturally any smarter or more skilled than a human. Just as other races rely on numbers and adaptability, elves rely on their long lifespans to learn swordplay well. Furthermore, take into account their extremely limited organization, numbers, and resources, and they aren't "better" than the other races at all. Just higher level on average. Do these elves really sound more idyllic and wonderful than most human or dwarven societies in DnD? Does being an elf still seem so much better than being any other race? If so, I guess I failed. Incidentally, nozhfgpizjdfzhguhzeh. That's spelt laissez-faire. I knew I was spelling it wrong in some way. Thanks.
Aneutralshadeofblack 05-07-08, 05:04 PM	Do these elves really sound more idyllic and wonderful than most human or dwarven societies in DnD? Does being an elf still seem so much better than being any other race? No and no, so that part of the trope is indeed subverted. As for being superhuman, I'm employing the word as it should be - as in, they're better than humans (even intrinsically - they have the elven grace and frailty, and the rest comes through living a long life). Both your example societies are, as I said in my previous post, well thought out and original. I'm just not convinced either subverts the trope - your dwarves are still underground-dwelling miners, and your elves are still sylvan superhumans. I think it may simply be a question of my not being clear on exactly what I consider to be the specific qualities of that trope, more than anything else, but I'd be derailing the thread and taking it into the realm of semantics. Would underground-dwelling miner elves and forest-dwelling tree-hugging dwarves subvert the trope? :?
Space_Dragon 05-07-08, 05:30 PM	Would underground-dwelling miner elves and forest-dwelling tree-hugging dwarves subvert the trope? :? Well, for that to fit their crunch, you'd have to change it a LOT, so I'm not sure if you could even call them elves or dwarves anymore.
Hochiu 05-11-08, 01:57 PM	I subverted the Tolkien-fanboy "OMG ELVES ARE AWESOME!" by turning them all into racist, bigoted, eugenicist Nazi-like nobles that ripped huge chunks of earth and bedrock (destroying much of nature and creating a genocide to Dwarven holds in the process) from the land to create their massive floating skylands. They transformed their undesirable class of elves into goblins through an attempt to make their race "better", which brought the inherent corruption in their souls out to the surface (hence the goblinoid's fetid, disgusting countenance). While they view this as a failure, the goblinoids are actually a step in the evolutionary direction of the elves - they would have started to twist and transform into these creatures naturally...they just sped up the time. Elven court is deady, far worse than any else. Assassinations are common place, accepted culturally to deal with opponents. Kind of like Rome and the Imperial Court of Rokugan on PCP. They are racist, arrogant, pigheaded, and generally the worst sort. But they're not evil. Wrap your heads around that one.
Eldritch_Lord 05-11-08, 05:03 PM	I subverted the Tolkien-fanboy "OMG ELVES ARE AWESOME!" by turning them all into racist, bigoted, eugenicist Nazi-like nobles that ripped huge chunks of earth and bedrock (destroying much of nature and creating a genocide to Dwarven holds in the process) from the land to create their massive floating skylands. [...] They are racist, arrogant, pigheaded, and generally the worst sort. But they're not evil. Wrap your heads around that one. Sorry, I only have 4 spacetime dimensions to work with here; head-wrapping will be difficult. Why aren't they evil, exactly? I mean, it's not bad for a PC race to be evil (evil but not bad).
Angel Black 05-18-08, 05:53 PM	:) Racists are not evil... till they do something evil, 300 movie is about that, and most westerns have a few of that too...
Eldritch_Lord 05-18-08, 10:04 PM	:) Racists are not evil... till they do something evil, 300 movie is about that, and most westerns have a few of that too... I was looking mostly at this: ripped huge chunks of earth and bedrock (destroying much of nature and creating a genocide to Dwarven holds in the process) from the land to create their massive floating skylands. as the "doing something evil" part.
6163 06-02-08, 02:04 PM	It's been brought up a few times and I don't feel like quoting, but it's gotten to be more cliche to have elves as self-absorbed, arrogant pricks than anything else; even in novels. The problem with elves now is that they're supposed to be superior according to the flavor but the LA+0 says otherwise, which gets annoying because elves aren't actually 'sylvan superheroes' but still think they are and we meet way to many of those people in real life. I've always hated D&D elves but play them all the time in Shadowrun and GURPS where you have to pay the points to be them, systems where elves think they're superior because the are. To me subverting the elven trope has nothing to do with ridding them of tree-hugginess, bows & arrows or magical talent but making them a down-to-earth race who would sit at a table with a human and think him as an equal. So far the most common subversion I've seen is giving elves an openly arrogant personality so we can just as openly hate them for their undeserved sense of self-importance. Thats why I think the Maya-style elves mentioned earlier are a great new take on the elven race, they are definitely elves but they don't have a mythical aura about them. They are, for a lack of a better term, ordinary.
Lost_Hybrid 06-04-08, 12:28 PM	I mess with races a lot. After I learned that the PHB races are pretty much lifted whole and entire except for minor physical details from the Ring Cycle, I got a little upset. Most of my d20 games now feature heavy alterations to race. Last game I ran had most of the standard races, with some tweaks. Humans came in four flavors -- Dark Ages Sicilian, precolonization Maori, pre-Revolution French, and a totally made-up nomadic culture. Elves were very Indian, a fact I didn't realize until after I'd finished making them. Their last Emperor was a real dick, so their wizards got their heads together and invited some other elves from another plane to come in and dethrone the bastard in exchange for fabulous wealth. These elves decided they wanted to stay for a while, until things were up and running. Hence, there are 6 castes of indigenous elves, but they're ruled over by one caste of foreigners. Dwarves were much the same, except that they'd recently come into a theocracy, and worship fire instead of earth. The half-orcs were less half-human half-orc, and more half-celestial half-orc. A celestial decided he was going to fight evil with some genetics, and his plan kind of work. The orcs are now unrecognizable as a race, having moved over to chaotic neutral rather than chaotic evil. Most of them are strength-worshipping barbarians of some sort or another, but they wander far afield. And they're big. The average height for males is 6' plus 2D6 inches, and for females it's 5'8" + 3D4 inches. I also added a new race for my friend who loves Warhammer 40k. They were essentially the Tau, but less on the communism, more on the socialism, and they had something no one else yet had: gunpowder. Other things I mess with: villains. I am sick to frickin' death of the lich/necromancer for a villain trope. I've gone out of my way to put good-aligned necromancers in my games, and god bless the people at Sword & Sorcery for publishing Hollowfaust. I've done paladins as villains -- greatest climax to a game ever. The PCs have finished hacking through the guy's army to find him dead on his own sword, unable to live with the guilt of what he's done. Another thing I've blown minds with: the urban druid. I've done it twice. Once as elves who help to grow the tree-cities their people live in, and once as natural outgrowths of the concept -- a city is a landscape in which creatures dwell, same as a termite mound or ant nest. Is it right to discriminate against humans because they have bigger brains and opposable thumbs? But my favoritest thing of all to mess with is stereotypes. Just the views of the people in the world of what a character class is. I've run a game where fighters are seen as improper -- thugs, usually. A proper fighting man would join a knightly order and become a paladin or ranger. In that same setting, clerics are seen as weak and sniveling, regardless of relative strength. In the minds of the people, calling upon the gods directly for aid is a sign of doubt in one's magic or strength. Real men study arcane magic, psionics, or alchemy and go to church only one day out of the week.
Stormbrand 06-04-08, 02:20 PM	The main trope I subvert is the idea of an Inactive Good, one where the Forces of Good seem to never be sheltering orphans or providing aid or protection against disaster. EG: Angels are always "too busy" to help anyone - which makes us wonder what they are too busy doing. Anyway, normally I make Good Churches very proactive in doing good in the world, supporting just laws and willing to call in the Heavens and send angels or inevitables in when things go bad. On the subject of elves however... Flavour-wise, elves seem to be the best wizards, the best archers, the best rangers, the best swordsmen, the best artists, the best craftsmen, the best... It gets old fast. Basically, they have been given so many cultural superiorities that none of them add depth to the race. Better at everything = a simply higher level of average.
dragonoverlord 06-05-08, 09:10 AM	One of the tropes I dislike is the ability to tell if someone is good or evil by using a fairly minor power. I think the ability to actually know for sure who is good and who is evil with an easy to use spell is a bad idea. I make it a high level spell, and do not give the ability to paladins until higher levels. I think that this is much more realistic, since it means that the vast majority of people, even paladins and similar characters, will have to try to figure it out on their own in the same way that people in the real world do. Those few that can easily know have a great responsibility and are in elite groups. As for elves, my main objection in that they seem to be based mainly on the Lord of the Rings, which do not give the full picture of Tolkien's elves. if you look at his earlier works, the elves are no better than Humans, just longer lived and are fairly diverse, both in society and where they live, This is how I depict elves. Some live in cold climates, some warm, some live underground, some are the arrogant rulers of an empire, some are nomadic tribesmen, and some are integral parts of other nations. Also, I dislike in general the whole monocultural approach to races. I never make a race with one culture, or one language , since this is impossible for any group, no matter how long-lived, that live in multiple places.
noisms 06-05-08, 11:35 AM	I quite like the idea of extremely short lived elves. (Say 15 years.) What would their civilization be like? First things first, they'd be the opposite of the wise, cautious elves we know and (ahem) love from Tolkien and D&D. Instead they'd be impulsive, seize-the-day, quick-thinking, impressionable lunatics. Why? If you're long-lived, taking a risk is rarely worth it; why sacrifice potentially thousands of years of existence for, well, anything at all? On the other hand, if you only live 15 years, all sorts of risks become more worthwhile - even risks that we humans would see as being too great for too little gain.
AaronDireBear 06-07-08, 12:12 PM	1) Adventurers unwittingly unleash ancient evil sealed in a can I have an extraplanar society dedicated to preventing this, headed up by an old character of mine who actually released such an evil long ago and decided "no more". 2) Any trope mentioned on the Evil Overlord List. Anything that normally gets an evil overlord killed will not happen to Ryota Illa. He follows EVERY rule on the Evil Overlord List. He is therefore completely unconquerable. I still use them for OTHER evil overlords, but I just wanted to have a perfect overlord for my setting. If my PCs ever decide to fight him, they're doomed. 3) "Ancient gods seal evil and leave it alone assuming nobody will ever touch it." This one always bothered me. So now there is a pyramid in the center of a desert of death where an ancient prison lies, maintained by an elite squad of wardens. (The previously mentioned society exists independently of them and neither knows the other exists). 4) "A villain will never get to finish his monologue before the elf shoots him in the face"- Newmoon's Principle, or, Firion's Law, or, Legolas' Razor My next villain will be a very vain samurai lord/daimyo who loves the sound of his own voice. He will actually have clerics of orochi cast greater Geas on the party to "wait until the master finishes monologuing". 5) "Evil Chancellor" The vizier in a recent adventure I ran was a good guy. The Rakshasa who bound, gagged and took his place however wasn't. 6) "tailor made encounter" A lot of my encounters are too easy, and some are too hard. There is no shame in running away. Remember kids, a smart man knows when to RUNLIKEALITTLE*****! Now I just need to figure out how to fit in a Xanatos Gambit. Always "insert alignment" is my bread and butter. So is "everything is better with princesses"
Deinos 06-07-08, 03:53 PM	the dark-skinned nocturnal elves be the nature loving mostly good ones and the Caucasian skinned blood-elves be the evil-curious ones I thought it was racist that they made the light skinned races be the boring generic ones and giving the kewl powerz to the dark skinned ones.
Deinos 06-07-08, 04:18 PM	I like to subvert the idea that bizarre and incomprehensible = evil, so that gibbering beasts and other aberrants may be sympathetic or even friendly lugs. These homicidal maniacs take elven racism to new hights by advocating "holy" war against the "slave races." I like to portray the elf vs orc conflict as, ultimately, being like that. But, its not something that interferes with the PCs per se, its a crusade against the orcs and titanspawn. Thus a PC might think "Its not my problem if there's vicious elves out to wipe out orcs, orcs are violent and stupid!" After reading the ORIGINAL I Am Legend book, I am going with a similar idea, along with that of Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust or Legacy of Kain and so forth, that the killing between humans and vampires is fairly unnecessary and pointless. Recently vampires lost much of their power and fecundity for whatever reason (compare 3E and 4E vamps) and so face extinction. The PCs will have the choice whether to intervene on their behalf (and perhaps be rewarded by being turned, if they can find the necessary ritual), or to finish them off. The drive to eradicate vampires is ultimately headed by the Raven Queen herself, who considers their existence outside of fate intolerable. All in all, I like to have even antagonists have equally valid points. Do you judge a book by its cover and risk killing an innocent, or do you weigh everyone on their own merits and risk giving enemies a chance to strike you first?
Icephoenix84 06-07-08, 04:53 PM	I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the most common trope of all: humans as the "average" race. What in the blazes makes anyone think that in a DnD setting the humans would be the "average" that every other race is based on? Why not the Halflings, or Elves or, lets be original, the Kobolds? It would take some serious re-stating of the races, but still it would be rather more interesting for humans to be the ones with +'s and -'s to their stats. In fact why not change the fantasy human life span to be more like the elves or short (say like the 15 years idea)?
Eldritch_Lord 06-08-08, 11:26 PM	2) Any trope mentioned on the Evil Overlord List. Anything that normally gets an evil overlord killed will not happen to Ryota Illa. He follows EVERY rule on the Evil Overlord List. He is therefore completely unconquerable. I still use them for OTHER evil overlords, but I just wanted to have a perfect overlord for my setting. If my PCs ever decide to fight him, they're doomed. YES. Every setting I create has at least one BBEG where I basically say (implicitly, of course) "Look, you guys aren't going to kill him just because you're PCs. He's been around for a while, so he's not going to go after you yet, but if you waltz in thinking you can just nova as usual you're going to die a slow, painful death." Having a bad guy like that, even if the PCs don't see him/hear of him/interact with him until very late in the game, makes it vastly easier for me to justify to myself a BBEG's stupid move or one critical misstep that makes killing him easy/easier/possible.
M-bark 06-09-08, 06:48 AM	I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the most common trope of all: humans as the "average" race. What in the blazes makes anyone think that in a DnD setting the humans would be the "average" that every other race is based on? Why not the Halflings, or Elves or, lets be original, the Kobolds? It would take some serious re-stating of the races, but still it would be rather more interesting for humans to be the ones with +'s and -'s to their stats. In fact why not change the fantasy human life span to be more like the elves or short (say like the 15 years idea)? Perhaps that's probably because, as a game made by humans, the definition of humans as a race is "average, but very versatile and adaptable". Also, if "humans" would live to see 700 or would look all wrinkly by the age of 10, they wouldn't be very human anymore, now would they? Now if DnD had been invented by Kobolds... ;)
JulesCARV 06-10-08, 12:26 AM	One trope I kinda want to subvert more for the sake of convenience than anything else -- the idea that fantasy worlds inevitably have long, looooooooooooooooong known histories, where you have empires that are 8,000 years old, known historical events occuring 30,000 years in the past, etc. I'm thinking of having a homebrew in which history as the world knows it basically begins about 800 years before the setting's "present." Divinations attempting to find out what was going on before then are blocked. Elderly elves may remember a few things that they're grandmother told them about what was going on 1,200 years ago -- but it's mostly personal stuff of little world-historical importance. Dragons generally pay about as much attention to what humans would consider "history" (e.g., one bunch of humans trying to kill another bunch of humans) as humans pay to the politics of wild rabbit warrens. From the unknown past until about 700 years ago, the world was basically ruled by Aboleths (mostly as a research station -- the aboleths were experimenting in crazy stuff like supernaturally breeidng an lions, eagles, and horses to produce hippogriffs, etc.). They didn't much care about how the world was governed, so long as it was stable (their humanoid surrogates generally ended up creating a sort of decentralized, feudal, corporatist society, the remnants of which remain today, along with a few other aspects of the Aboleth era, such as the common coinage system (with 9.07 gram/0.32 ounce coins), the common language (originally the language of one moderate-sized human tribe, who were particularly enthusiastic collaborators with the Aboleths, who ended up throughout the administration of the whole world). The Aboleths and their humanoid friends basically attempted to wipe out history, with the only history being "the way things are now is the way things always have been, and the way they always will be." The Aboleths used powerful magic to block divinations about the past. Once they left about 700 years ago, that block was no longer updated, so events occuring 700 years ago or earlier are accessible by divination, but before that, you basically hit a blank wall, barring some sort of epic divination.
Angel Black 06-12-08, 08:22 PM	I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the most common trope of all: humans as the "average" race. Humans are the average race because of their number and the special skill: "we can sleep with anything", just drop their number in a campaign world (a disease can do that) and choose another beings to take over the world like the cockroaches...or kobolds.
M-bark 06-15-08, 12:05 PM	Humans are the average race because of their number and the special skill: "we can sleep with anything", just drop their number in a campaign world (a disease can do that) and choose another beings to take over the world like the cockroaches...or kobolds. Trope to subvert: "there is no half-human template, yet there are numerous different kinds of half-humans."
JulesCARV 06-18-08, 03:58 AM	One obvious one: The sun is good. Light is good. Darkness is evil. Living underground is usually evil (exception: dwarves). Being nocturnal or being sensitive to light is usually evil. If there's a race divided between an above-ground and underground subraces, or between shallow-underground and deep-undeground subraces, the deeper you go, the worse you are.
M-bark 06-19-08, 04:45 AM	Yes! Yes, that is indeed a good one, one I've been subverting from the start. Especially after playing Tales of Symphonia, I wanted a BBEG who uses a lot of light and looks like an angel. Of course, Pelor should be evil, too. :D