Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dog_O_War 08-05-07, 05:59 PM	This is [I think] the most important concern for all you people out there who have created your own setting; what suggestions do you have to make for getting into the theme of your campaign setting more enticing for the players? I have players that would rather just play 'builds' (characters with no personality, only levels and feat combos) rather than take something that is fitting and even functionally cool to have. This includes found magic items that I have created (which they'd rather sell and get the DMG standard, no matter how difficult I make obtaining magic items), joining organizations, and even taking levels in prestige classes despite the offer of modifying them with there close imput - so close infact that they are basically designed by them. Have any of you experienced situations similar to this or have any advice on what a person could do to help some players better immerse themselves in a setting of your design?
Tuah 08-05-07, 06:10 PM	Change their charisma score and earned EXP according to their actual playing? :D
taradusis 08-05-07, 07:40 PM	In order to encourage better play I used to have pop quizes at the end of a session and give xp for right answers.Mention that if PCs complete certain story goals they'll get bonus XP?RANDOM THOUGHT
Artifact 08-05-07, 09:50 PM	If it makes you feel any better, players are just as likely to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) an official setting (such as Forgotten Realms) as they are a homebrew setting. At least in my experience. For instance: It makes no difference to them if they meet Elminster or Raistlin, Drizzt or Gord, as long as they have a powrful NPC to beat up or chat up. If they ignore such finely detailed NPCs (with their extensive story backrounds), then they will surely ignore my version of Elminster, who I call Laskar, and who hasn't nearly the same amount of written backround available. You just can't win ;) . . . Or can you? The trick might be in just relaxing and going with the flow. If your players enjoy statting their characters and items to the exclusion of campaign backround, so be it. Let 'em have fun. That is, until the weapon they are carrying happens to be anything but just another magic sword. Maybe it houses the spirit of a long dead fiend (or celestial) who has been attempting to take over their mind for many months. If the story is told well enough, the character (and the player) might actually develop an interest in finding out about this mysterious fiend for themselves. Perhaps the character's investigations lead them into other unique aspects of the setting. Introduce campaign details into the mix at odd times (when least expected), not always up front, use foreshadowing to set up events in the campaign. Just a few ideas, hope this is helpful. :)
Teh_Darkness 08-05-07, 10:38 PM	I dont find it neccesary for my players to desire knowing everything in my world. I think most just want to know that if they ask a question about the world that they will get an answer even if that answer is something you just made up.
Demangel 08-05-07, 10:53 PM	I personally find this kind of situation to be the pinnacle of disappointment when I'm DM'ing, especially if it's homebrew. Yup tons of things you can try, but in my experience, no matter how hard you try, some people just can't be swayed... Some people really are better off playing table top wargamming style games, and prefer to keep the role play and immersion down to a minimum. I feel there is nothing wrong with that, as i too enjoy table top wargames and RTS computer games etc. But I really sink my teeth into role playing and world exploration. OF course D&D as written allows for all kinds of gaming styles, it's not all that hard to convert D&D into a table top wargaming game of some kind, heck just read the miniatures rules and you'll see... The best advice for you that I can think of is this: Take away all character sheet knowledge from them, and force them to avoid using metagaming terms or concepts at any point when discussing or using their characters abilities. Instead of allowing them to say: I take a level of fighter. Force them to explain what they want thier character to learn without using terms that can be directly referenced in the rule books. IE: Ok I want to learn to fight better, I want to master the use of my greatsword and (etc). This will force them to think of things more and more in realistic terms... As they must try and explain what they want without explaining the feat or ability name. If they can't help but reference feats or skills etc by name, make them start over... and that you won't understand unless they do it in character. If they try making epic PRC builds etc, they have to know how to explain why their character is doing so without referring to things like: "I want my PC to gain the BAB of the fighter, but the feats and abilities at first level of a rogue." Instead the player must explain why their character wants to train in rogue abilities, and must be prepared to explain how they gained this knowledge... They can't just wake up one morning and suddenly know how to be a rogue... someone has to teach them, or experience has to be gained first hand through trial and error... If they fail to do so to your satisfaction, rule that they will instead take another level of fighter, but promise that if they play during the course of the next level like they are trying to learn to be a rogue, you may allow it next level... If nothing else it could be entertaining to have your clumsy fighter trying to pick pockets to try to learn the basics by experience... or better yet the PC might bite the bullet and really inquire from the locals about where they might learn the abilities of a rogue... naturally getting them odd looks from the local watch... "I want to be able to cut through multiple opponents with one swing of my sword!" = cleave. When discussing combat and things of that nature, don't let them know even thier own hit points, or atributes or saves, or AC, or anything that would encourag4e them to metagame. Instead keep thier sheets behind your own screen and use them to describe things in realistic terms. "Ok your hurt, but not really badly hurt enough for him to be concerned." To the player this is a very vague but useful bit of info... They know they are not at 100%, but they arn't badly enough hurt to be concerned about continuing the fight... The only drawback here, is the amount of work you will need to do from then on to keep things legitimate. It will be even easier for you to fudge things in any direction you want, which might cause you to be less strict about minding the rules at all... which can be bad. Naturaly when dealing with things like inventories (IE how many potions the party has) you can let them have access to that. but knowing the exact effects of a spell or, potion or feat should be done using only the description text, omiting any values. This in reality should be enough for any player to make choices about what they want and how they want to use things. Your mage might complain that they cannot choose spells so easily, but explain to them that their mage wouldn't know how many d6 a fireball does in abstract terms anyway... Your mage would know fireball is a very damaging spell, and know how to use it and why, but exactly how much damage it deals or how hard it is to resist or counterspell etc, should be done using vague abstractions. IE Very damaging, very hard to dodge etc. Explain things visualy, explain things like you would if you saw them in real life. A modern soldier might have some idea for example of the FPS and penetrating power of some bullets, but this is a far cry from knowing how many bullets it will take to kill a guy for sure... LEts see... the M16 can put out 4d6 points of piercing damage per burst... that should kill a terrorist! No... all they know is each bullet has a good chance of going through some objects, and has a good chance of killing the enemy in one shot... not by how many points... They might know a grenade can be thrown about as far as a baseball, and goes off after 7 seconds, and delivers XYZ energy to a radius of X feet cubed, but that doesn't tell him anything that even resembles how much HP damage it should do in game terms. When in doubt refer to the detail explaination in the manuals for everything, and force them to come to thier own conclusions about things. IF they have the audacity to resist and still request things ooc, then refuse to know what they are talking about... "Fighter to merchant - you have any +3 greatswords on sale?" Merchant "Who is plustree? I never heard of a weapon maker by that name before..." Player "Plus three, you know like plus three damage!? Magic?" Merchant "+3 damage? Not sure what that means at all, but I do sell magic items. Some of them are greatswords... want to see my selection." player "Sure.... do I see any +3 greatswords?" DM: "You wouldn't know one if you got hit by it, you don't have any spell or ability that lets you identify objects so precisely." Player: "Ok I ask the mage to cast identify on the items." DM: "The Merchant gets upset - You can't just go around casting spells on my wares... Try that again and I'll be calling the watch!" Player: "Ok I drink a potion of lore to help me identify it myself." DM: "*goes through a lengthy description of some of the items in the merchants possession, none of it saying +3 or any other modifier, instead explaining enchantments such as +3 as - blade of ultra keeness, or a blade that will seem to guide your hand as if you were even more exceptionally skilled than before." Yes it will get hard to communicate some concepts, but do this enough and your players will have no choice but to start thinking of things in character, which can lead to them thinking of things in terms of setting and how it relates to the character as well. Basically, if the players are metagaming that to the point where it interferes with the goal of the game that you all agree upon, remove from them the temptation to even try to metagame... Any metagaming they do must be phrased in an in character manner... The end result is they should start thinking of their character less as a bunch of stats, and more as a figure and a real persona... If all else fails, just stop trying to force them to play D&D your way, and play something else that you can all agree on as being fun, or find another group entirely.
GoriceXII 08-05-07, 11:14 PM	The last poster gave some advice I would have given. However I'll add to it: I think that you need to make it clear to your players that that is part of YOUR fun. The average player who has never dm'd doesn't know that, you see. My players are very good friends of mine and in the previous campaign I was running they had no idea that I wasn't really enjoying it. Some of the last poster's advice is very sensible; if players feel they can meta game getting all resources, dealing with damage and npcs and so on then they will. As said the drawback is the amount of work to do but if you are prepared to do it then it can be fun. You can also do things to make people care more about the setting. Make the adventures largely take place in a small region for the earlier part of the game; create npcs they like or places they enjoy going to and then make it clear that they are vulnerable unless the pcs heroically defend them. Give them something to struggle and fight for and they will often enjoy the game a lot more. In one game the cheering of the people of a town and the town's rulers exclaiming their gratitude in public almost meant more to my pcs than getting the experience did. It was kind of a milestone which said "you've arrived, you're local heroes."
sabrewolf 08-06-07, 12:52 AM	Some bits from my own game that I´d like to share.... One thing to do would be talk to them players. It´s something I´m keeping in mind and trying to do before starting a game. I wished to make a "more serious game" and said that to them: and they agreed. Not much talking now, but they are getting into it. Latter on, on the next campaign, i´ll ask what aspects they desire in the game, then think what of the ideas on my mind fit into that (and of course i´ll mention some when i ask)... The point here would be to talk to them and find not only what they expect in the game but also letting them know you want them to put a little more into their characters then just numbers and gear stats. Another thing that worked well in my group is dual campaigns. It helps because at least two players are also Dms, but it started with one Dm-ing two campaigns. The trick here is making two oposites, something that can be alternated to avoid either side becoming boring or tiring or too much of something: One campaign could be an attempt on more imersive game while the other could be a more kick-the-door random-joe-hero game, where the players would care less about imersion and hack foes happily with their walking stat blocks with magical gear. Saying things before the "press start" is also a good thing. Saying some metagame-talk is ok but asking to keep it off when talking to npcs is an example. On the sword buying part (on Demangel post) if they simply want a sword +3 and are going to a shop just to buy that, if it´s of little avance for the plot you can just say if they bought one or not (any why) - and consider that the character could talk in game what he wanted. Just as well you could leave the door open for more custom made itens, saying certain merchant-enchanters could maybe do something less standard if they could describe it to him (you´d confirm the iten´s stats before making the deal but the RP-ing moment is still there). ..Hopefully like the posts above, mine will be of use.. good game.. ;)
FponkDamn 08-06-07, 04:05 AM	I just run two games. One game is a tactical, by-the-numbers wargame and dungeon crawl. No houserules, every piece of treasure is from the random tables in the MIC, and all the characters are ultra-effecient adventurers. The other game is a thrilling story of political intrigue, personal loss, and dashing heroics where intricate player-driven story webs fuel mysteries that impact the entire realm. Before I started each game, I told any potential player friends of mine what each one would entail. Both games are hella fun, because the players in both get exactly what they want. I'm entertained by either; so on Tuesdays I get a bash-em-up showdown, and on Thursdays I get epic theater. I spend equal parts of my spare time creating tactically elaborate and interesting encounters for the first game and world-building for the second. Just be up-front with your players. If you got six people in a room and asked them if anyone wanted to play Twister, and no one did, you wouldn't pull out the ol' dots and start spinning the colors, would you? Same with D&D. Sometimes, you just want to play a different game than everyone else. If all your players want is hack and slash, either have fun with it (if you can; and not everyone can) or graciously cede the DM chair and seek a group who yearn for what you're selling. Believe me, they're out there. I see 'em on Thursdays. - Johnny
AegriSomniaPress 08-06-07, 07:47 AM	Well I would suggest to temporarily switch to a system that does not support a gamest style so much. You could try running a few sessions of: Sorcerer Dogs in the Vineyard The Shadows of Yesterday so on and so forth. Once you have gotten them to play some of these types of games you may find them having a better respect for narativist styles. Regards, Seth
gojumamoru 08-06-07, 04:32 PM	To deal with this in my own games I have torn d&d down and built it back up to the point where some might accuse me of not even playing d&d anymore. All my worlds are custom built. Races are custom built. Prestige classes are custom built. I allow no races or prestige classes from the books. I also don't allow classes that don't fit in the world. Oh yes and monsters aren't worth any xp. The only way to get xp is to accomplish goals (all rp and quest related). I admit my games are not for everyone. If you are hack and slash you will leave my game after 3 months of no combat. Or if plot deems it so game after game of endless demon attacks. These things for a player to get out of the numbers and start getting into the character and through them the world. Custom prestige classes are great for getting someone involved in the game. Not getting xp from killing things forces the players to do something else with thier time... like interact with the world (in a less violent way). I always tell my players if they want hack and slash they can play warcraft. It is full of numbers and endless mindless pointless combat. Things that take someone away from what they are familiar with forces them to try to become interested in all the new things they have suddenly been introduced to.
thrallmaster 08-06-07, 09:40 PM	This is an easy problem to fix. I used to have 2 players that were on all accounts min-maxers, so I did exactly what they did, but better. I sent a very powerful, but legal, (Equal CR to PCs) NPC to confront the PCs. My other 2 PCs took the smart route and talked their way out of it, they listened and knew who it was (Guess who? Starts with D ends with T and has a Do' in it) they were able to talk their way out of it, My min-maxers saw that he was a drow and thought instantly: EVIL! KILL! But he defeated them, not killed them (I should of) and that was enough for them to pay attention to the story from then on. If they play only for combat, give them the fight of their lives :devil:, after a fight that shows that their ultra fighters can beat them easily at their own game, they'll appreciate story-telling more. Trust me. Hope this helps!
Optimized_Commoner 08-06-07, 09:51 PM	Oh, I've never had any trouble with this. Not necessarily because my settings are any better than others (though I like to think they're pretty good), but because the players in my group love nothing more than interacting with a setting. Once when I was running a game and winging the world design, the moment they discovered that the continent they were on was originally inhabited by lizardmen they were hooked. They travelled to seek out experts on history, old ruins and lost writings to try and discover what happened to the lizardmen. That one trivial fact I made up on the spur of a moment, to cover a stupid mistake I'd made which had made an adventure not make sense, turned out to be the driving force for the whole campaign. The game ended with them discovering the divine curse that ended the lizardman nation and negotiating with the gods to lift it. This is what I love most about DMing, so my sympathies go out to you if you have a less interested group of players.
lulzapalooza 08-06-07, 11:44 PM	Everything in moderation. You're players will never care as much about your world as you do. Telling them about your epic background is just too much information to take in. Just occasionally let them know "well, in the city of Martak magic is outlawed, which your character should know because he's lived here for years, just thought I'd tell you before you tried to cast that spell," most the time they'll ask why, and you'll tell that Karlis the Sorceror King is fearful of other spellcasters usurping his power. Players will be concerned about your setting when it directly effects their own actions.
TunnHarr 08-07-07, 03:49 PM	I didn't read all the posts, but I read through most of Demangel's post, and he has some excellent parries for player metagaming. +2 circumstance bonus on persuade. Or, more fitting for him, in his elegant way, "He is rather adept at guiding those around him to 'speak his language.' " my experience is that it is as much the draw you get for players as it is the world. Odds are, players that don't care about the Roleplaying will just get frustrated when you attempt to immerse them into the world, which deserves a prompt polymorph straight from the heavens. Why else do they play? Tell those hippocrites to go back to their twinks on their pvp realms. DnD is for those who can still create a universe with their minds. In practical response, I would say start to take drastic actions. If the players continue to digress, throw them into prison for speaking in tongues! Have them exiled, or have the villagers run in terror when they approach. Randomized assasination attempts are always gold. Make them remember where they are. Make them remember that here, the DM's rule is God's own!
Baernwulf_of_Nor 08-08-07, 01:39 AM	Unfortunately, this usually happens to me. For instance, take my last session: The PC's are commoners for optimum role playing chances, right? I told them before that I would like to run a more serious campaign, with role playing and good descriptions/backgrounds, and I'm known by my friends as the roleplaying wierdo. And they know that I give exp rewards for good roleplaying. I worked double extra harder than ever to make a town map that showed every house(convenient accident) and make NPC's that I know my players will never talk to. So here's how it went. Both PC's ignore good commoner feats such as skill focus(Profession/craft) and instead go straight to a supplement book for a martial focus feat. And THEN wrote into their backgrounds that one of their parents were master martial arts/badger wrangelers and thats how they get bonus damage. They then chose to use the spear, conveniently one of the highest damage simple weapons, even though I don't see a commoner carrying around a spear... Moving on to gameplay... Commoner A gets smashed at Tavern, Commoner B almost kills a nobles horse, then proceeds to go to tavern and gets wasted with Commoner A(CA and CB as we will call them from now on) both must spend the night in the taverns stables. The next day they are extremely overcharged on taxes, neither of them could piece together if you **** off a noble that knows your landlord it's bad. So they actually consider killing CA's brother and selling everything he owns for the tax money, but after a long, hard glare from me CA said no because they are related. Neither of them consider taking it up with their ruling noble, the only things that crossed their mind were stealing/ripping NPC's off. I then introduce a NPC willing to help them get the money by going into the wilderness and hunting gnolls, I do my best to make the wilderness travelling interesting(strangely all DM's I know have the problem of boring travel) but CA just bad mouths my attempts(jokingly of course) but it throws me off track and I revert to "Ok, it's nighttime, what do you do?". They decide to coup-de-grace their buddy NPC who offered to help them while he sleeps(I told them both to change to Chaotic Evil alignment). Take his stuff, and basically tell me they are never going back to their home-town again. I mean...if you wanted to play an evil campaign ya coulda just told me guys.... In short PC's really don't care about the itty-bitty details of your world. They just want to have fun. It's a tricky compromise because for the DM, its the Roleplaying and world around the PC's that's the fun, yet for the players it's the PC's themselves. The realization is that most of YOUR world will be avoided/ignored for side quests, yet to the players the side quests and unexpected turns ARE your world. So flexebility is really the key. My advice to all DMs is expect the unexpected and only prepare for what you know is WILL AND MUST happen, because usually the rest will be setaside for the PCs own desires, but isn't that really what D&D is? The story of the PCs and their adventures in the world? BoN
TunnHarr 08-08-07, 03:14 PM	I hear it a lot, that DM's players don't appreciate the environment, and it really makes me sad. I was blessed with a group of friends that really care about roleplaying, they even do it in combat. I really don't know what there is to be done about this, but in complete inseriousness, i suggest a retalliation session where the DM beats up on his players until they realize that HE can have fun by ruining their experience too. It's a two way street, people just need to understand how much work is put into DMing. (I'm just joking about the revenge session) To be serious, when it came to everyone in my group learning to appreciate this, we all decided that everyone should DM at least once. When everyone saw whether they had a good time or not based on how much work each person put into their campaign, it really struck home that good campaigns need good players as much as good DM's. One of the worst planned campaigns was the best, it was the last person and we were all ready to use his world to the fullest. He had practically nothing, and he sprouted imagination on he spot based on our actions. I don't think this would work for everyone, but it's worth a shot.
Artifact 08-08-07, 03:55 PM	To be serious, when it came to everyone in my group learning to appreciate this, we all decided that everyone should DM at least once. When everyone saw whether they had a good time or not based on how much work each person put into their campaign, it really struck home that good campaigns need good players as much as good DM's. I never really thought of it this way, but maybe that's why our group hasn't faced this same situation (not in awhile at least). That is, each of us take turns DMing from session to session. This is good advice; players and DMs each have fun in different ways.
Dan Hemmens 08-08-07, 04:25 PM	Well I would suggest to temporarily switch to a system that does not support a gamest style so much. You could try running a few sessions of: Sorcerer Dogs in the Vineyard The Shadows of Yesterday so on and so forth. Once you have gotten them to play some of these types of games you may find them having a better respect for narativist styles. Regards, Seth You do realize that, in all the games you cite, the players are expected to pay no attention whatsoever to the setting? All those games are explicitly about the player characters and nothing else. You don't want to teach your players about Narrativism, they'll never pay attention to your worldbuilding again.
Dan Hemmens 08-08-07, 04:37 PM	This is [I think] the most important concern for all you people out there who have created your own setting; what suggestions do you have to make for getting into the theme of your campaign setting more enticing for the players? First: Bring them in on the ground floor. As a player, there is nothing I find less appealing than a DM coming up to me and saying "look, here is a world which I have created, marvel at its complexity, be dazzled by its intricacy, worship my creative abilities!" Ask your players what kind of setting they would be interested in playing in before you design it. Second: Remember that respect is a two-way thing. Why do DMs expect players to get excited about their settings, when most of them don't give a crap about the players' characters? Most DMs *particularly* worldbuilding DMs view the PCs as convenient vehicles through which the players can experience their world, when in fact, a PC is a player's creative investment in the game. A PC is exactly as important to the player as your world is to you. How excited, on average, do you get about the average PC? That's how the players feel about your world.
Altar_Boy 08-08-07, 04:58 PM	Dan: Very true. At the core of it all, the PC wants to be the star. She might share space witho ther stars, but her time in the spotlight should be about who she is. I DM one group who is into world flavour, and another who is all about character sheets. Well, that's not exactly true. They love gambling games. and killing goblins. Not what you'd expect in world building. But if your world doesn't accomodate PC preference, what good is it? I say to setting-builders: put whatever you want into it, but make sure the PCs have a chance to be supercool, and that the players can do what they want.
TunnHarr 08-08-07, 05:00 PM	I see how some DM's would care more about their setting and things getting done how they want them to. I take the standpoint that each should give according to scale. I put a lot of work into my worlds, and my players are expected to do the same with their characters. I have as much fun seeing how my players interact with my world as seeing how they do it. I will pay careful attention to my character's traits, and I mold conversations based on how my NPC's would react to the actions and subtleties of my players. It's my world to create, but it's their world to be in. If one of my players is lagging creatively, I pull them aside and even help them establish RP's for their characters. I have a friend who wanted to mix it up and play an evil character, and he didn't know how. The next week, I asked someone else to DM and I teamed up with him and we were a pair of hellions. If everyone can DM, then everyone can work on their RP skills as well.
Thanuir 08-09-07, 08:16 AM	Some players are not interested in the intricacies of settings. Talk to them about it. Covertly changing them does not work. Nor does forcing another gaming style on them (that will simply alienate players). You do realize that, in all the games you cite, the players are expected to pay no attention whatsoever to the setting? All those games are explicitly about the player characters and nothing else. You don't want to teach your players about Narrativism, they'll never pay attention to your worldbuilding again.Not true about the Shadow of Yesterday. (http://files.crngames.com/cc/tsoy/) The setting is important part of the game.
Dan Hemmens 08-09-07, 10:00 AM	Not true about the Shadow of Yesterday. (http://files.crngames.com/cc/tsoy/) The setting is important part of the game. I that was the one on the list I hadn't played. The rest, though, are very, very, very big on the "setting not being important" thing, and in general the whole *point* of Narrativism is that it isn't about exploring the DM's setting.
Rockjaw 08-09-07, 12:21 PM	I was able to add thier input and that made them 'invested' in the world, I challenged them to build, add, create something for the world something as simple as a menu in a local tavern is a good starting point. Another tactic was to get really unique in describing treasure, giving them things like possible antique furniture, or building supplies, or something like a rune-covered anvil...? This forces the players to do some creative role-playing to identify and possibly sell the material. A third option is fleshing out NPCs fully and using in depth interaction, really in depth interactions to increase the commitment of the players. Something like a ressurection can leave a party deeply debtted to a higher level NPC
Strudel_Lumpycakes 05-14-08, 01:26 AM	Unfortunately, this usually happens to me. For instance, take my last session: The PC's are commoners for optimum role playing chances, right? I told them before that I would like to run a more serious campaign, with role playing and good descriptions/backgrounds, and I'm known by my friends as the roleplaying wierdo. And they know that I give exp rewards for good roleplaying. I worked double extra harder than ever to make a town map that showed every house(convenient accident) and make NPC's that I know my players will never talk to. So here's how it went. Both PC's ignore good commoner feats such as skill focus(Profession/craft) and instead go straight to a supplement book for a martial focus feat. And THEN wrote into their backgrounds that one of their parents were master martial arts/badger wrangelers and thats how they get bonus damage. They then chose to use the spear, conveniently one of the highest damage simple weapons, even though I don't see a commoner carrying around a spear... Moving on to gameplay... Commoner A gets smashed at Tavern, Commoner B almost kills a nobles horse, then proceeds to go to tavern and gets wasted with Commoner A(CA and CB as we will call them from now on) both must spend the night in the taverns stables. The next day they are extremely overcharged on taxes, neither of them could piece together if you **** off a noble that knows your landlord it's bad. So they actually consider killing CA's brother and selling everything he owns for the tax money, but after a long, hard glare from me CA said no because they are related. Neither of them consider taking it up with their ruling noble, the only things that crossed their mind were stealing/ripping NPC's off. I then introduce a NPC willing to help them get the money by going into the wilderness and hunting gnolls, I do my best to make the wilderness travelling interesting(strangely all DM's I know have the problem of boring travel) but CA just bad mouths my attempts(jokingly of course) but it throws me off track and I revert to "Ok, it's nighttime, what do you do?". They decide to coup-de-grace their buddy NPC who offered to help them while he sleeps(I told them both to change to Chaotic Evil alignment). Take his stuff, and basically tell me they are never going back to their home-town again. I mean...if you wanted to play an evil campaign ya coulda just told me guys.... In short PC's really don't care about the itty-bitty details of your world. They just want to have fun. It's a tricky compromise because for the DM, its the Roleplaying and world around the PC's that's the fun, yet for the players it's the PC's themselves. The realization is that most of YOUR world will be avoided/ignored for side quests, yet to the players the side quests and unexpected turns ARE your world. So flexebility is really the key. My advice to all DMs is expect the unexpected and only prepare for what you know is WILL AND MUST happen, because usually the rest will be setaside for the PCs own desires, but isn't that really what D&D is? The story of the PCs and their adventures in the world? BoN Even though I know I am committing thread necromancy of the most grievous sort, I feel compelled to defend myself here. Indeed, it is I, the infamous Commoner B. First off, I'd like to say that was one of my favorite games I've played in for quite a while. Second, it was my idea for us to play commoners. For the record, we did go back to town. I'm pretty sure we lost the farm though. Damn horse shouldn't have charged me in the first place. Badger wranglers spook easily. (And can do 1d8+2d6+3 damage)
KorgothThePrist 05-14-08, 03:21 AM	Ive had problems like this in games Ive solved it by just makeing the Wolrd map and towns and stuff and many differnt Area type maps and so on so forth. I Allso created a random name generator and crap like that. Have alot of random quests and stuff all over the place. not no 1 big bad guy. and stuff like that. I then let the players do w/e they want. I then concentrate on how the rest of the world would react to such a thing. In short the players are not the "Heros" they need to earn it. if they want to sit in a bar and all. Then let em. You just have some random disater happin at the town. or have the Grim Reaper randomly target then as rape fictums or such. and if they complain for dieing or w/e then just look at em and go "well you guys where sitting at the bar all day long so w/e" and make NPCS at higher level. the PCS are not the ONLY adventures now are they? If PC is ranpageing agest Town. let them destroy that town. then level 10+ NPC comes around finds them guilty of going agest DM Wishes (You word it differntly of course) And rape the PCS and smile eviloly.
Naderion 05-14-08, 09:17 AM	When the mountain (players) does not come to the prophet (setting), the prophet has to go to the mountain. I also severely limit the amount of races and classes in campaigns that don't use a generic setting or a setting that specifically allows everything (like Eberron i.e.). In my setting are only about 10 races that gain class levels and have an LA of +2 or lower. There are also only 9 base classes present and prestige classes are limited to 8, which reflect the mastery of the unique special magical traditions of the world (as, if you look it up, the DMG highly suggests). That's what you can pick from, and everything else simply doesn't exist in the world. There are no Klingons in Star Wars. Not much of help if the players actively want to keep the campaign free f setting and roleplay, but it helps for setting some basic background rules.
Ahnehnois 05-19-08, 10:40 AM	I had to use the same world for a while before 1: I developed it well and 2: the players bought into it. I try to set only clear and basic groundrules for what is okay stylistically (no joke names) and in the campaign world (no dragonslayers). Beyond that, I keep enough wiggle room in my setting to allow for many different characters to have plausible reasons to exist.