+1 level of exisiting spellcaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1 level of exisiting spellcaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DwarvenLord77
07-09-07, 12:49 PM In many of the magic prestige classes this comes up often as a benefit whether it be everyother level, every level, or every 3rd level.

My question is: how is this balanced with martial classes? I understand that the wizard misses a couple of bonus feats but it still seems like they are leveling up twice for one levels worth or XP. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it is balanced but I haven't seen any thing like " +1 level of existing martial class".

It just seems that they take very little damage to their spells and get some nice bonuses along the way. The one that I think is the most unbalanced so far is the Green star adept (Complete Arcane).

P.S. I understand that you only get to add spells. You don't add the BAB or saving throws. I get that part.
Karzach
07-09-07, 01:13 PM You mean any kind of martial class, or just martial adept classes?
kaionon
07-09-07, 01:31 PM Simply put, it isn't balanced with martial classes. Not even the martial adept classes. Spellcasting in 3.5 (And really, first and second.) has been overpowered when compaired to martial. Many prestige classes give uninterrupted spellcasting progession with added special abilities and the spellcaster simply gains from it. On the otherhand while most martial prestige classes give same attack bonus progression and some cool abilities they do nothing really to change how the spellcaster if getting more from his prestige class since the martial character usualy has to give up things while the spellcaster only really gains in most cases.
Lotus Crane
07-09-07, 01:33 PM In many of the magic prestige classes this comes up often as a benefit whether it be everyother level, every level, or every 3rd level.
Don't forget the 9/10's, which are generally regarded to probably be the best balanced spellcasting PrC's. I don't recall seeing any every-thirds though; care to enlighten us?

My question is: how is this balanced with martial classes? I understand that the wizard misses a couple of bonus feats but it still seems like they are leveling up twice for one levels worth or XP.
Not exactly. The most powerful and important feature of spellcasters, is of course, their spells, so unless somebody writes a crazy PrC which says "this level grants +2 levels of existing spellcasting," nothing comes close to "leveling up twice for one level's worth of XP."

Besides, martial PrC's have relatively comparable benefits. Fighters have full BAB and a bonus feat every other level; Dwarven Defenders/Tactical Soldiers/War Minds have full BAB and a special ability (typically better than a feat) almost every level.

Finally, not only does advancing in a PrC cause you to lose the base class's other benefits (a wizard's bonus feats, for example), but most PrC's have entry requirements which you normally wouldn't want to take if you didn't have to. The most common one for spellcasting PrC's is Combat Casting, which is almost worthless compared to Skill Focus (Concentration), let alone even better feats like Arcane Mastery, Extraordinary Concentration, Extraordinary Spell Aim, or any of the item creation and metamagic feats.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and it is balanced but I haven't seen any thing like " +1 level of existing martial class".
Well, the Battle Trickster and Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) come close to doing that.

It just seems that they take very little damage to their spells and get some nice bonuses along the way. The one that I think is the most unbalanced so far is the Green star adept (Complete Arcane).
Because of the way the magic system is designed to scale with level, losing spell progression is a huge drawback. It's not just a problem for the spellcaster himself, it's a problem for the entire party. Certain campaigns become literally impossible to run, when a 9th level party doesn't have access to teleport (5th level wizard spell) and plane shift (5th level cleric spell).

NPC King: Ah, brave party of 9th level adventurers! You came just in time to save our kingdom from an imminent demon invasion! All you have to do is plane shift to the Abyss and neutralize the artifact which has been allowing them to cross over.
PC Cleric: Uh, sorry. I'm actually a cleric 7/Warpriest (half-casting divine PrC) 2, so I can't cast plane shift for another 2 levels.
Rest of the Party: ZOMG PWNED!

Green Star Adept is actually a pretty weak PrC, if you're trying to be the primary arcane spellcaster. You lose half of your spell progression for those levels, which basically means that if you started as a sorcerer or wizard, by the time you're done, you only cast as well as a pure bard. In return you get just medium BAB (not even good), and a few special abilities designed to help warriors, not spellcasters. A straight cleric, druid, or even psychic warrior, are all strictly superior to any sorcerer or wizard/Green Star Adept.

Simply put, it isn't balanced with martial classes. Not even the martial adept classes. Spellcasting in 3.5 (And really, first and second.) has been overpowered when compaired to martial.
This is a related, but still distinctly separate, issue. Yes, spellcasting base classes are more powerful than non-spellcasting base classes. Therefore, it stands to reason that spellcasting PrC's are more powerful tha non-spellcasting PrC's. However, in relative terms, spellcasting PrC's are not more powerful than spellcasting base classes by a wider margin than non-spellcasting PrC's are more powerful than non-spellcasting PrC's.

In other words, wizard might be better than fighter, and Archmage might be better than Dwaven Defender, but Archmage and Dwarven Defender are both equally better (roughly speaking) than the base classes they replace. Ie (if we can just agree to use arbitrary nonsense numbers for this argument), Archmage is a 25% upgrade for wizard, and Dwarven Defender is a 25% upgrade for fighter, so in relative comparison, Archmage isn't unfairly better designed than the Dwarven Defender (it's just that the magic system and certain spells themselves, are inherently broken).
Puca
07-09-07, 01:41 PM If you are a class like a fighter, your most important thing is your ability to hit things, your BAB.
When they take a PrC that grants full BAB, you are just trading your feats for the benefits of the PrC. You still get the most important thing though.

I dont see that as being so different from a PrC that continues to grant a caster what is most important to them, casting.

Edit: It should go without saying that a PrC that has few or insignificant entry requirements and provides special abilities and grants full casting is probably not a good PrC.
radkins
07-09-07, 01:52 PM I don't really understand either, but basically a wizard trades in their bonus feats for the special features of the prc. Also, a lot of prc's require that the caster give up a couple of caster lvls, by giving 9/10, 8/10, etc. casting instead of the full progression. And, martial class dont gain on level of class abilities because thethey are replaced by the new abilities. Are you saying that a fighter taking a prestige class should contimue to get bonus feats as a fighter?
DwarvenLord77
07-09-07, 03:13 PM I'm not saying that a fighter should continue to get bonus feats but you did make me realize that if +1 existing martial class was common place it still wouldn't matter to a fighter since they only get feats and no special abilities.

As some one who loves to play martial characters this is very frustrating.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DwarvenLord77 07-09-07, 12:49 PM	In many of the magic prestige classes this comes up often as a benefit whether it be everyother level, every level, or every 3rd level. My question is: how is this balanced with martial classes? I understand that the wizard misses a couple of bonus feats but it still seems like they are leveling up twice for one levels worth or XP. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it is balanced but I haven't seen any thing like " +1 level of existing martial class". It just seems that they take very little damage to their spells and get some nice bonuses along the way. The one that I think is the most unbalanced so far is the Green star adept (Complete Arcane). P.S. I understand that you only get to add spells. You don't add the BAB or saving throws. I get that part.
Karzach 07-09-07, 01:13 PM	You mean any kind of martial class, or just martial adept classes?
kaionon 07-09-07, 01:31 PM	Simply put, it isn't balanced with martial classes. Not even the martial adept classes. Spellcasting in 3.5 (And really, first and second.) has been overpowered when compaired to martial. Many prestige classes give uninterrupted spellcasting progession with added special abilities and the spellcaster simply gains from it. On the otherhand while most martial prestige classes give same attack bonus progression and some cool abilities they do nothing really to change how the spellcaster if getting more from his prestige class since the martial character usualy has to give up things while the spellcaster only really gains in most cases.
Lotus Crane 07-09-07, 01:33 PM	In many of the magic prestige classes this comes up often as a benefit whether it be everyother level, every level, or every 3rd level. Don't forget the 9/10's, which are generally regarded to probably be the best balanced spellcasting PrC's. I don't recall seeing any every-thirds though; care to enlighten us? My question is: how is this balanced with martial classes? I understand that the wizard misses a couple of bonus feats but it still seems like they are leveling up twice for one levels worth or XP. Not exactly. The most powerful and important feature of spellcasters, is of course, their spells, so unless somebody writes a crazy PrC which says "this level grants +2 levels of existing spellcasting," nothing comes close to "leveling up twice for one level's worth of XP." Besides, martial PrC's have relatively comparable benefits. Fighters have full BAB and a bonus feat every other level; Dwarven Defenders/Tactical Soldiers/War Minds have full BAB and a special ability (typically better than a feat) almost every level. Finally, not only does advancing in a PrC cause you to lose the base class's other benefits (a wizard's bonus feats, for example), but most PrC's have entry requirements which you normally wouldn't want to take if you didn't have to. The most common one for spellcasting PrC's is Combat Casting, which is almost worthless compared to Skill Focus (Concentration), let alone even better feats like Arcane Mastery, Extraordinary Concentration, Extraordinary Spell Aim, or any of the item creation and metamagic feats. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it is balanced but I haven't seen any thing like " +1 level of existing martial class". Well, the Battle Trickster and Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) come close to doing that. It just seems that they take very little damage to their spells and get some nice bonuses along the way. The one that I think is the most unbalanced so far is the Green star adept (Complete Arcane). Because of the way the magic system is designed to scale with level, losing spell progression is a huge drawback. It's not just a problem for the spellcaster himself, it's a problem for the entire party. Certain campaigns become literally impossible to run, when a 9th level party doesn't have access to teleport (5th level wizard spell) and plane shift (5th level cleric spell). NPC King: Ah, brave party of 9th level adventurers! You came just in time to save our kingdom from an imminent demon invasion! All you have to do is plane shift to the Abyss and neutralize the artifact which has been allowing them to cross over. PC Cleric: Uh, sorry. I'm actually a cleric 7/Warpriest (half-casting divine PrC) 2, so I can't cast plane shift for another 2 levels. Rest of the Party: ZOMG PWNED! Green Star Adept is actually a pretty weak PrC, if you're trying to be the primary arcane spellcaster. You lose half of your spell progression for those levels, which basically means that if you started as a sorcerer or wizard, by the time you're done, you only cast as well as a pure bard. In return you get just medium BAB (not even good), and a few special abilities designed to help warriors, not spellcasters. A straight cleric, druid, or even psychic warrior, are all strictly superior to any sorcerer or wizard/Green Star Adept. Simply put, it isn't balanced with martial classes. Not even the martial adept classes. Spellcasting in 3.5 (And really, first and second.) has been overpowered when compaired to martial. This is a related, but still distinctly separate, issue. Yes, spellcasting base classes are more powerful than non-spellcasting base classes. Therefore, it stands to reason that spellcasting PrC's are more powerful tha non-spellcasting PrC's. However, in relative terms, spellcasting PrC's are not more powerful than spellcasting base classes by a wider margin than non-spellcasting PrC's are more powerful than non-spellcasting PrC's. In other words, wizard might be better than fighter, and Archmage might be better than Dwaven Defender, but Archmage and Dwarven Defender are both equally better (roughly speaking) than the base classes they replace. Ie (if we can just agree to use arbitrary nonsense numbers for this argument), Archmage is a 25% upgrade for wizard, and Dwarven Defender is a 25% upgrade for fighter, so in relative comparison, Archmage isn't unfairly better designed than the Dwarven Defender (it's just that the magic system and certain spells themselves, are inherently broken).
Puca 07-09-07, 01:41 PM	If you are a class like a fighter, your most important thing is your ability to hit things, your BAB. When they take a PrC that grants full BAB, you are just trading your feats for the benefits of the PrC. You still get the most important thing though. I dont see that as being so different from a PrC that continues to grant a caster what is most important to them, casting. Edit: It should go without saying that a PrC that has few or insignificant entry requirements and provides special abilities and grants full casting is probably not a good PrC.
radkins 07-09-07, 01:52 PM	I don't really understand either, but basically a wizard trades in their bonus feats for the special features of the prc. Also, a lot of prc's require that the caster give up a couple of caster lvls, by giving 9/10, 8/10, etc. casting instead of the full progression. And, martial class dont gain on level of class abilities because thethey are replaced by the new abilities. Are you saying that a fighter taking a prestige class should contimue to get bonus feats as a fighter?
DwarvenLord77 07-09-07, 03:13 PM	I'm not saying that a fighter should continue to get bonus feats but you did make me realize that if +1 existing martial class was common place it still wouldn't matter to a fighter since they only get feats and no special abilities. As some one who loves to play martial characters this is very frustrating.