Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raiziel07 05-29-07, 02:42 PM	If I have a level in a prestige class that gives a +1 level to an existing spellcasting class to two different classes (Eldritch Theurge for example) and I then take a level in a different class that allows a +1 level of existing class (Arcane Trickster for example) choosing the Eldritch Theurge: 1) Can I even choose Eldritch Theurge 2) If I can, I know I wouldn't gain the class features of the Eldritch Theurge, but would I still gain increased spellcasting levels for both the invocation user and the arcane spellcaster?
koiulpoi 05-29-07, 02:58 PM	If I'm reading that correctly... No, because Eldritch Theurge is not a spellcasting class.
Raiziel07 05-29-07, 03:29 PM	Technically it could be seen as one. You have to be a spellcaster to take levels in it, and your spellcasting improves as a result of being in it, so it could be seen as a "spellcasting class". It even has "spellcasting" listed under its class features.
Batshido 05-29-07, 03:49 PM	Technically it could be seen as one. You have to be a spellcaster to take levels in it, and your spellcasting improves as a result of being in it, so it could be seen as a "spellcasting class". It even has "spellcasting" listed under its class features. Does it have a table listing it's spells per day? If the answer is no, it's not a spellcasting class.
Pentagram 05-29-07, 04:04 PM	I'm certain there are rule lawyers who would claim that you could actually do what is proposed here, but I think it is pretty clear that the "+1 of existing class"-abilities can only be applied to actual spellcasting classes. Mystic Theurge is no actual spellcasting class because it has no spellcasting progression of its own, it only adds to other classes. Similarily, you can't apply the +1 level gained from, say, Loremaster to your levels in, say, Arcane Trickster. This is a obvious case when a strict reading of the words can lead to results that clearly are unintended. On the other hand, if you really want to bend the rules, why not apply the +1 levels from Mystic Theurge to itself to begin with. It could be considered both an arcane and a divine spellcasting class (adding progression to both) so a Cleric3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge1 adds both the arcane and divine spellcasting progression to itself, thus gaining two level progressions each in both an arcane and a divine spellcasting class, again applying them to itself, doubling them each time a couple of times and finally apply them to Cleric and Wizard, effectively casting spells as a Cleric20/Wizard20 with infinite caster level already at level 7. If your DM foolishly claims that the Mystic Theurge is no spellcasting class until it has gained an actual progression you have to wait until level 8 instead... Yeah, pretty overpowered that Mystic Theurge...
risner 05-30-07, 01:34 AM	If I have a level in a prestige class that gives a +1 level to an existing spellcasting class to two different classes (Eldritch Theurge for example) and I then take a level in a different class that allows a +1 level of existing class (Arcane Trickster for example) choosing the Eldritch Theurge: 1) Can I even choose Eldritch Theurge 2) If I can, I know I wouldn't gain the class features of the Eldritch Theurge, but would I still gain increased spellcasting levels for both the invocation user and the arcane spellcaster? 1) No, because Eldritch Theurge isn't a spellcasting class. +1 existing spellcasting can only advance a class that grants spell casting (Divine Crusader, Cleric, Wizard, etc) it can not advance a class that does not grant spell casting (Arcane Hierophant, Mystic Theurge, etc) 2) Since you can't, this question is moot.
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 03:19 AM	I'm certain there are rule lawyers who would claim that you could actually do what is proposed here, but I think it is pretty clear that the "+1 of existing class"-abilities can only be applied to actual spellcasting classes. Mystic Theurge is no actual spellcasting class because it has no spellcasting progression of its own, it only adds to other classes. Similarily, you can't apply the +1 level gained from, say, Loremaster to your levels in, say, Arcane Trickster. This is a obvious case when a strict reading of the words can lead to results that clearly are unintended. On the other hand, if you really want to bend the rules, why not apply the +1 levels from Mystic Theurge to itself to begin with. It could be considered both an arcane and a divine spellcasting class (adding progression to both) so a Cleric3/Wizard3/Mystic Theurge1 adds both the arcane and divine spellcasting progression to itself, thus gaining two level progressions each in both an arcane and a divine spellcasting class, again applying them to itself, doubling them each time a couple of times and finally apply them to Cleric and Wizard, effectively casting spells as a Cleric20/Wizard20 with infinite caster level already at level 7. If your DM foolishly claims that the Mystic Theurge is no spellcasting class until it has gained an actual progression you have to wait until level 8 instead... Yeah, pretty overpowered that Mystic Theurge... 1) Dude, lay off the drugs, or SOMETHING. You're not making much sense. 2) What do you mean by "strict reading of the words can lead to results that clearly are unintended."? If both of those prestiege classes are adding to Wizard, then it doesn't matter that you can't add Arcane Trickster and Loremaster together, your Wizard caster level goes up. 3) How in God's holy name do you get "infinite caster level" at level 8? Your logic doesn't make any sense, unless you're saying that the caster levels you gain from MT make the MT go up in level again, which doesn't make a lick of sense. 4) The Mystic Theurge is NOT a Spellcasting class. Does it have spells/day? Does it have a spells known list? Or does it improve the caster level and spells known of other classes? 5) Mystic Theurge overpowered? Where's the "fall over laughing" smiley?
NoldorForce 05-30-07, 03:31 AM	3) How in God's holy name do you get "infinite caster level" at level 8? Your logic doesn't make any sense, unless you're saying that the caster levels you gain from MT make the MT go up in level again, which doesn't make a lick of sense. 4) The Mystic Theurge is NOT a Spellcasting class. Does it have spells/day? Does it have a spells known list? Or does it improve the caster level and spells known of other classes?These portions of the discussion were a reductio ad absurdum argument on why considering the MT to be a spellcasting class is foolish even if it does fall within the rules. Which it (as asserted by nearly everyone on this thread, including that poster) isn't.
Pentagram 05-30-07, 06:30 PM	1) Dude, lay off the drugs, or SOMETHING. You're not making much sense. Hopefully my comments make sense if you read them in context with the original question, as was my intention. If you did read them in that context and they still don't make sense...well, I guess I'm senseless at times... 2) What do you mean by "strict reading of the words can lead to results that clearly are unintended."? If both of those prestiege classes are adding to Wizard, then it doesn't matter that you can't add Arcane Trickster and Loremaster together, your Wizard caster level goes up. What I technically mean is that this isn't Magic: the Gathering and the rules must sometimes be interpreted rather than simply followed. If a strict reading of the rules for adding spell level progression leads to the idea that such a progression can be added to another class that grants such progression, rather than to an actual spellcasting class, which seemed to be the conclusion reached by the original poster, than clearly the letter and the intention diverge. 3) How in God's holy name do you get "infinite caster level" at level 8? Your logic doesn't make any sense, unless you're saying that the caster levels you gain from MT make the MT go up in level again, which doesn't make a lick of sense. Note that my post was intended to show what absurdities would be the result if you could apply a +1 caster level progression from, say, Loremaster to Mystic Theurge and thereby gain another progression in both an arcane and a divine spellcaster class. This was the idea that the original poster had, although I took it a step further and used the spellcaster progression granted by Mystic Theurge and applied it to itself. As one level progression will grant two new level progressions (one arcane, one divine), this can be repeated indefinitely. 4) The Mystic Theurge is NOT a Spellcasting class. Does it have spells/day? Does it have a spells known list? Or does it improve the caster level and spells known of other classes? Correct. Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. This little excercise was only meant to show what would happen if one should interpret a class that grants "+1 level of existing spellcaster class" to be a spellcasting class itself. Hopefully it adequately demonstrated how absurd it would be. 5) Mystic Theurge overpowered? Where's the "fall over laughing" smiley? I guess I could have used a sarcasm smiley, but I thought the irony was quite obvious. Seems like Poe's Law can be applied to gaming discussions as well.
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 06:47 PM	Ah, my apologies then. You make a lot more sense when you're not talking in huge blocks of text. :P And yes, I would say that Poe's Law is applicable. My knee-jerk reaction upon seeing your post was "another person who doesn't get it... *sigh*" and not "hmm, sarcasm." NoldorForce - yeah, I bet he was thinking "obscure latin phrase" and not "sarcasm". :P
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 07:22 PM	But then, here's a point to consider. If no PrC's with +1 level of existing class are spellcasting classes, then one would argue that with the exception of the Assassin, there are NO spellcasting PrCs at all, thus making the point of multiclassing into multiple arcane/divine PrCs non-existant. You cannot put levels of Mystic Theurge in itself because, quite simply, that's not how the class feature works. But back to my main point: If you consider PrCs with +1 level of existing class as non-spellcasters, then you're killing arcane/divine optimization by shooting it in the gnads. Just my two silvers.
Batshido 05-30-07, 07:50 PM	But then, here's a point to consider. If no PrC's with +1 level of existing class are spellcasting classes, then one would argue that with the exception of the Assassin, there are NO spellcasting PrCs at all, thus making the point of multiclassing into multiple arcane/divine PrCs non-existant. You cannot put levels of Mystic Theurge in itself because, quite simply, that's not how the class feature works. But back to my main point: If you consider PrCs with +1 level of existing class as non-spellcasters, then you're killing arcane/divine optimization by shooting it in the gnads. Just my two silvers. They advance spellcasting level, meaning that your arcane spellcaster levels add to your prestige class levels (in some manner) to determine your caster level. They are not however, in and of themselves, spellcasting classes. If there isn't a Spells (Prepared or not)/Day table, it's not a spellcasting class. It's leaching off of the other class' spellcasting. As to the "shooting in the nads" thing, I don't really see it. If casters needed some help to hang with the melee types, maybe. As it is, allowing stuff like this would just be mind-blowingly overpowered.
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 08:09 PM	They advance spellcasting level, meaning that your arcane spellcaster levels add to your prestige class levels (in some manner) to determine your caster level. They are not however, in and of themselves, spellcasting classes. If there isn't a Spells (Prepared or not)/Day table, it's not a spellcasting class. It's leaching off of the other class' spellcasting. As to the "shooting in the nads" thing, I don't really see it. If casters needed some help to hang with the melee types, maybe. As it is, allowing stuff like this would just be mind-blowingly overpowered. What I meant to say is that by that logic, there's no such thing as a spellcasting PrC, which is at the very least a fallacy. As for the mind-blowingly overpowered, I would welcome you to tell me any two PrCs that, combined, would make an arcane/divine type stupidly powerful.
Batshido 05-30-07, 08:17 PM	What I meant to say is that by that logic, there's no such thing as a spellcasting PrC, which is at the very least a fallacy. As for the mind-blowingly overpowered, I would welcome you to tell me any two PrCs that, combined, would make an arcane/divine type stupidly powerful. Mystic Theurge + Arcane Heirophant. Double advancement in any spellcasting class. Casting at 18th level, you're a level 24 Wizard (or Cleric, or Druid....). Not overpowered? :rolleyes:
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 08:25 PM	When you grab things like the Complete Divine or Tome of Battle? Not really.
Batshido 05-30-07, 08:29 PM	When you grab things like the Complete Divine or Tome of Battle? Not really. Que? What in the Tome of Battle deserves to be called broken when compared with getting 9th level spells at level 15? Complete Divine is just about the most ridiculous thing printed in this edition, but ToB? Are you one of those guys that just hates melee?
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 08:31 PM	Ur-Priest is a PrC that has its own spellcasting list, and thus is a spellcasting class and eligable for advancement by the +1 prestige classes. I'm not sure exactly what else you want...
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 08:43 PM	On the contrary, I think I've played like two spellcasters my whole life. Both shugenja. I still fail to see how you'd get 9th level spells at level 13, but please, be my guest to explain.
Batshido 05-30-07, 09:07 PM	On the contrary, I think I've played like two spellcasters my whole life. Both shugenja. I still fail to see how you'd get 9th level spells at level 13, but please, be my guest to explain. I actually corrected myself. It's level 15. Level 1: Wizard 1 Level 2: Wizard 2 Level 3: Wizard 3 Level 4: Druid 1 Level 5: Druid 2 Level 6: Druid 3 Level 7: Mystic Theurge 1 (Druid 4/Wizard 4) Level 8: Arcane Heirophant 1, advancing Wizard and Mystic Theurge for each level of Heirophant. (Druid 5/Wizard 6) Level 9: Arcane Heirophant 2 (Druid 6/Wizard 8) Level 10: Arcane Heirophant 3 (Druid 7/Wizard 10) Level 11: Arcane Heirophant 4 (Druid 8/Wizard 12) Level 12: Arcane Heirophant 5 (Druid 9/Wizard 14) Level 13: Arcane Heirophant 6 (Druid 10/Wizard 16) Level 14: Arcane Heirophant 7 (Druid 11/Wizard 18) Level 15: Arcane Heirophant 8 (Druid 12/Wizard 20) Level 16: Arcane Heirophant 9 (Druid 13/Wizard 22) Level 17: Arcane Heirophant 10 (Druid 14/Wizard 24) Level 18: Mystic Theurge 2, advancing Wizard and Arcane Heirophant. (Druid 15/Wizard 26) Level 19: Mystic Theurge 3 (Druid 16/Wizard 28) Level 20: Mystic Theurge 4 (Druid 17/ Wizard 30) 3rd level spells available at 8 4th level spells available at level 9 5th level spells available at level 10 6th level spells available at level 11 7th level spells available at level 12 8th level spells available at level 13 9th level spells available at level 14 Epic spellcasting at level 16. I was wrong. It's faster than I thought. ;) I don't want to turn this into another ToB thread, but out of curiousity, exactly what about the ToB makes you think "wow that's broken?"
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 09:19 PM	Just a combo our DM thought up that nets a fighter four full round attacks as a swift action. I think I found the mistake in that logic. You're assuming that, for every level in Arcane Hierophant you take, you'd advance two levels in wizard, correct? +1 level of existing class doesn't work like that. It's like a cascade, actually. If you go down the Arcane Hierophant path and select Mystic Theurge you'd still only get one caster level's worth at a time. Because of the way levels work. Also, you wouldn't get epic spellcasting at level 16, because you wouldn't be entitled to take epic feats before level 20. Even if that logic somehow worked, your extra CL would only mean something after level 21. Which means, you'd have to be pretty stupid to do that.
Batshido 05-30-07, 09:28 PM	Just a combo our DM thought up that nets a fighter four full round attacks as a swift action. You've piqued my curiosity. Care to elaborate? I think I found the mistake in that logic. You're assuming that, for every level in Arcane Hierophant you take, you'd advance two levels in wizard, correct? The entire thing is an exercise in poor logic. Namely, that of calling the Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant spellcasting classes in their own right. If you do that, this is what happens. +1 level of existing class doesn't work like that. It's like a cascade, actually. If you go down the Arcane Hierophant path and select Mystic Theurge you'd still only get one caster level's worth at a time. Because of the way levels work. It's true. As long as you only recognize the Wizard and Druid classes in the equation as being spellcasting classes and treat the MT and AH as PrC's that merely advance spellcasting of other classes, it all works. No arguement here. The problems come when you call Mystic Theurge a spellcasting class. Because then you can pull stuff like the above. Also, you wouldn't get epic spellcasting at level 16, because you wouldn't be entitled to take epic feats before level 20. Even if that logic somehow worked, your extra CL would only mean something after level 21. Which means, you'd have to be pretty stupid to do that. No this is just quibbling over details. ;) The fact remains that I finished the progression with 30 levels in my "primary" class and level 17 in my "secondary" casting class. That's pretty messed up, and it only happens when you start applying terms to things they really don't belong with. Oh, and a 30th level caster is a 30th level caster. Even if I'm not casting epic spells, having dozens of 9th level spell slots would be pretty cool. Or, I could just go the other way and finish as a 25/24. That's a lot of spells. :cool:
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 09:35 PM	No this is just quibbling over details. The fact remains that I finished the progression with 30 levels in my "primary" class and level 17 in my "secondary" casting class. That's pretty messed up, and it only happens when you start applying terms to things they really don't belong with. Oh, and a 30th level caster is a 30th level caster. Even if I'm not casting epic spells, having dozens of 9th level spell slots would be pretty cool. Or, I could just go the other way and finish as a 25/24. That's a lot of spells. Yes, it would. IF you could take the Improved Spell Capacity feat, that is. For creating magic items, it'd be a different matter. I still don't see how you'd end up with two levels at a time, though. And I was exaggerating a bit on that combo. It's not 4 full rounds as a swift action, but rather, 4 full rounds in a round + movement involving a swift action.
Batshido 05-30-07, 09:41 PM	I still don't see how you'd end up with two levels at a time, though. A level of Arcane Heirophant adds one level to your arcane class, and one to your divine class. A level of Mystic Theurge adds one level to your arcane class and one to your divine class. Here's how it looks, starting at level 8: Arcane Heirophant level: Wizard (arcane) and Mystic Theurge (divine, advancing Wizard and Druid due to it's dual advancement) +1 level of Wizard (AH), +1 level of Druid (MT), +1 level of Wizard (MT)= +2 levels of Wizard, +1 level of Druid. And I was exaggerating a bit on that combo. It's not 4 full rounds as a swift action, but rather, 4 full rounds in a round + movement involving a swift action. Still curious. Seems implausible, certainly nothing I've run into before. Please elaborate. :)
Kuroimaken 05-30-07, 09:58 PM	Ah, now that I see where you're coming from, it becomes a bit more clear. Thank you. I will post that combo when I remember all of it, it was a bit long and complex. But you'll definitely see it when I get to it. :D
risner 05-30-07, 10:13 PM	Are we still discussing if a Mythic Theurge is a spell casting class or not? The best way to know is to look at the class. If it has a Spells section and in that section it has a line similar to below then it is a spell casting class: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid class spell list." As for the goofy way these rules are being interpreted, here is a sample of the insanity: Level 1: Wizard 1 Level 2: Wizard 2 Level 3: Wizard 3 Level 4: Druid 1 Level 5: Druid 2 Level 6: Druid 3 Level 7: Mystic Theurge 1 (Druid 4/Wizard 4) Level 8: Arcane Heirophant 1, advancing Wizard and Mystic Theurge for each level of Heirophant at which point the Mystic Theurge will advance Arcane Heirophant again. So at level 8, you have infinite caster level and 9th level spells. As for the silly statement that there would be no spell casting PrC if what is said in this thread is true, that is false: Divine Crusader Blackguard Suel Arcanamach These are just a few of the many many many spell casting PrC (all of which can be advanced by a Mystic Theurge's +1 existing spell casting class because they are a spell casting class. Again, all spell casting classes have a class feature called "Spells". They probably also have a class featured called "Spells Known/Spells per Day".
koiulpoi 05-30-07, 10:19 PM	I know you're going for silly, risner, but even with the silly logic it doesn't work. You only gain a new spellcaster level and spells per day, you don't gain class features. The +1 caster level is a class feature. :D I think what I just proved there is that it doesn't work no matter what...