+1 level of existing spellcasting class... [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1 level of existing spellcasting class... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gamebird
10-27-04, 06:43 PM Just to clarify something...

When a Prestige Class says "+1 level of existing spellcasting class", what do they mean? In the case of the previous class being wizard, do they really mean that you learn new 2 new spells, your effective caster level goes up one and you get access to the extra spells per day due to wizard of one level higher than you used to be? If so, is there any reason why anyone would remain as a wizard, when you can take a Prestige Class, get the specials of the PrC and all your normal spells too, and all you lose is an occasional bonus feat? Does your familiar cease to advance when you take a PrC that includes "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"?

I'm just wondering why anyone would ever STAY a wizard when they could become a PrC and do just as good.
monkeywrench
10-27-04, 06:47 PM Just to clarify something...

When a Prestige Class says "+1 level of existing spellcasting class", what do they mean? In the case of the previous class being wizard, do they really mean that you learn new 2 new spells, your effective caster level goes up one and you get access to the extra spells per day due to wizard of one level higher than you used to be? If so, is there any reason why anyone would remain as a wizard, when you can take a Prestige Class, get the specials of the PrC and all your normal spells too, and all you lose is an occasional bonus feat? Does your familiar cease to advance when you take a PrC that includes "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"?

I'm just wondering why anyone would ever STAY a wizard when they could become a PrC and do just as good.

You lose the bonus feats and no, your familiar does not advance. Everything else is true. Same for a sorcerer and learning new spells. He gets new spells known and spells per day, but his familiar doesn't advance either.

With Wizards, it's a trade off. Those bonus feats can be quite powerful (Metamagic or Item Creation) but you get other abilities to compensate. And there are a lot of options for Wizards to PrC into.

With Sorcerers, it's a bit of a different story. It would seem like PrCing would be a good thing, since familiars aren't all that great anyway, but finding a PrC with sorcerers in mind (one they can easily qualify for by level 5) that has full spellcasting progression is difficult.
Tealgorthian
10-27-04, 06:50 PM Gonna break your post down into parts :)

do they really mean that you learn new 2 new spells

This is debatable. Some say yes, some say no. I personally go with yes.

effective caster level goes up one and you get access to the extra spells per day due to wizard of one level higher than you used to be?

Yes. If you are a 5th level Wizard, and take a level with +1 spellcasting, then you look at the 6th level (5+1=6) slot for your spells.

If so, is there any reason why anyone would remain as a wizard, when you can take a Prestige Class, get the specials of the PrC and all your normal spells too, and all you lose is an occasional bonus feat?

Some gaming groups dont allow PrCs. and staying base class is simpler. But most people I know take a PrC as soon as they can, reguardless of class.

Does your familiar cease to advance when you take a PrC that includes "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"?

Your familiar stays the way it was, unless the PrC states otherwise.
MetalGemini
10-27-04, 06:51 PM A wizard going into a PrC gain everything as normal, except the bonus feats and improvements to familiar.

Why continue as a wizard? This can be said for most, if not all, classes. I think the big thing here is that PrCs seemed to start out as an option for the DM to give players, but took off so much that PrCs have become a must-have for wizards, sorcerers, fighters, etc. There is really no reason to stay as a regular wizard unless you can't find a PrC you like.
RayOMan
10-27-04, 08:00 PM There is a reason for taking Wizard levels instead of PrCs. The inclusion of PrCs in the campaign is at the DMs whim.
jsaving
10-28-04, 10:54 AM Why continue as a wizard? This can be said for most, if not all, classes.
I don't fully agree with this. Druids make a large sacrifice when they enter a PrC, and clerics make a smaller but still significant sacrifice, especially if they've selected domains like fire and strength whose granted power is based on their cleric level. Bards make large sacrifices when they enter most arcane PrCs, because those PrCs generally offer the hit points and skill points of a wizard. And paladins/rangers make large sacrifices when they enter most divine PrCs, because those PrCs generally offer the BAB and hit points of a cleric.

There are a few exceptions to each of these observations, but not many. The real problem here is specific to the wizard and (especially) the sorcerer.
Naeron
10-28-04, 11:46 AM This is debatable. Some say yes, some say no. I personally go with yes.

To be accurate if the PrC description of "+1 level of existing class" includes the phrase "and spells known if applicable" (e.g. The Loremaster) then the Wizard definitely does get the 2 free spells as the glossary defintion of Known Spell is the spells that a Sorceror of Bard choses when they gain a level and the spells a Wizard has in their spellbook.

If the PrC lacks that phrase (e.g. the SRD version of the Mystic Theurge) then no the wizard wouldn't get the 2 free spells but a Sorceror wouldn't get any extra spells known either. Most reasonable people take the "and spells known, if applicable" as being inherent in the general rule of adding to caster level for spells per day but the RAW doesn't state this, not in the SRD at least.

The Wizard does not get familiar advancement or bonus feats unless the PrC description specifically states that they do.
Dracspero
10-28-04, 12:39 PM Actually, I think Prestige Classes were originally designed to give DM's options for unique NPCs (or NPC organizations). But they quickly became a hit with the players.

In any case, as was mentioned, few people WOULD stay as a straight wizard or sorcerer. However, some PrCs (or their requirements) force you to miss some levels of spellcasting, so you want to avoid those if you want casting to be your primary goal. On the other hand, if you get abilities of another class while at the same time get increases in caster level, then make the other abilities your focus and consider spellcasting your secondary or support abilities.

E.g. I am currently playing a Sorcere 4/Fighter 2/Spellsword 2, who will take 1 more level of Spellsword than become an Eldritch Knight. So at 10th level I'll be a 6th level caster. I'm focussing most of my feats on my combat (archery) skills (except for practiced spellcaster of course), because my magic won't necessarily put me in good stead against the kind of foes I'll be facing at that level.
Gamebird
10-28-04, 04:37 PM I was looking at the Sacred Fist in the Complete Divine for my Monk 2/Wizard 4 and seeing if I could just shift everything that said "divine" for "arcane" and "religion" for "arcana". I'd go up to d8 hit points, better skill slots, better skill choices, Fighter BaB, stacking with monk unarmed damage, faster movement, higher AC, better saves, and better special abilities, all in exchange for losing two levels of spellcasting ability over the course of the 10 level progression. It just seemed like I'd be getting a heck of a lot and giving up very little.

So I toned the BaB down to Monk and switched the Fort save to Will (since Wizards are better at that than Fortitude stuff), then stripped off a couple special abilities. I still think the class is way overpowered compared to 10 levels of wizard. I wouldn't be taking this for another 3 levels anyway and I've got to get the DM to approve it, but it seems in line with the other PrC choices. Being in line with other PrCs did not mean it was in line with the base classes though, so I was wondering what I was missing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gamebird 10-27-04, 06:43 PM	Just to clarify something... When a Prestige Class says "+1 level of existing spellcasting class", what do they mean? In the case of the previous class being wizard, do they really mean that you learn new 2 new spells, your effective caster level goes up one and you get access to the extra spells per day due to wizard of one level higher than you used to be? If so, is there any reason why anyone would remain as a wizard, when you can take a Prestige Class, get the specials of the PrC and all your normal spells too, and all you lose is an occasional bonus feat? Does your familiar cease to advance when you take a PrC that includes "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"? I'm just wondering why anyone would ever STAY a wizard when they could become a PrC and do just as good.
monkeywrench 10-27-04, 06:47 PM	Just to clarify something... When a Prestige Class says "+1 level of existing spellcasting class", what do they mean? In the case of the previous class being wizard, do they really mean that you learn new 2 new spells, your effective caster level goes up one and you get access to the extra spells per day due to wizard of one level higher than you used to be? If so, is there any reason why anyone would remain as a wizard, when you can take a Prestige Class, get the specials of the PrC and all your normal spells too, and all you lose is an occasional bonus feat? Does your familiar cease to advance when you take a PrC that includes "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"? I'm just wondering why anyone would ever STAY a wizard when they could become a PrC and do just as good. You lose the bonus feats and no, your familiar does not advance. Everything else is true. Same for a sorcerer and learning new spells. He gets new spells known and spells per day, but his familiar doesn't advance either. With Wizards, it's a trade off. Those bonus feats can be quite powerful (Metamagic or Item Creation) but you get other abilities to compensate. And there are a lot of options for Wizards to PrC into. With Sorcerers, it's a bit of a different story. It would seem like PrCing would be a good thing, since familiars aren't all that great anyway, but finding a PrC with sorcerers in mind (one they can easily qualify for by level 5) that has full spellcasting progression is difficult.
Tealgorthian 10-27-04, 06:50 PM	Gonna break your post down into parts :) do they really mean that you learn new 2 new spells This is debatable. Some say yes, some say no. I personally go with yes. effective caster level goes up one and you get access to the extra spells per day due to wizard of one level higher than you used to be? Yes. If you are a 5th level Wizard, and take a level with +1 spellcasting, then you look at the 6th level (5+1=6) slot for your spells. If so, is there any reason why anyone would remain as a wizard, when you can take a Prestige Class, get the specials of the PrC and all your normal spells too, and all you lose is an occasional bonus feat? Some gaming groups dont allow PrCs. and staying base class is simpler. But most people I know take a PrC as soon as they can, reguardless of class. Does your familiar cease to advance when you take a PrC that includes "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"? Your familiar stays the way it was, unless the PrC states otherwise.
MetalGemini 10-27-04, 06:51 PM	A wizard going into a PrC gain everything as normal, except the bonus feats and improvements to familiar. Why continue as a wizard? This can be said for most, if not all, classes. I think the big thing here is that PrCs seemed to start out as an option for the DM to give players, but took off so much that PrCs have become a must-have for wizards, sorcerers, fighters, etc. There is really no reason to stay as a regular wizard unless you can't find a PrC you like.
RayOMan 10-27-04, 08:00 PM	There is a reason for taking Wizard levels instead of PrCs. The inclusion of PrCs in the campaign is at the DMs whim.
jsaving 10-28-04, 10:54 AM	Why continue as a wizard? This can be said for most, if not all, classes. I don't fully agree with this. Druids make a large sacrifice when they enter a PrC, and clerics make a smaller but still significant sacrifice, especially if they've selected domains like fire and strength whose granted power is based on their cleric level. Bards make large sacrifices when they enter most arcane PrCs, because those PrCs generally offer the hit points and skill points of a wizard. And paladins/rangers make large sacrifices when they enter most divine PrCs, because those PrCs generally offer the BAB and hit points of a cleric. There are a few exceptions to each of these observations, but not many. The real problem here is specific to the wizard and (especially) the sorcerer.
Naeron 10-28-04, 11:46 AM	This is debatable. Some say yes, some say no. I personally go with yes. To be accurate if the PrC description of "+1 level of existing class" includes the phrase "and spells known if applicable" (e.g. The Loremaster) then the Wizard definitely does get the 2 free spells as the glossary defintion of Known Spell is the spells that a Sorceror of Bard choses when they gain a level and the spells a Wizard has in their spellbook. If the PrC lacks that phrase (e.g. the SRD version of the Mystic Theurge) then no the wizard wouldn't get the 2 free spells but a Sorceror wouldn't get any extra spells known either. Most reasonable people take the "and spells known, if applicable" as being inherent in the general rule of adding to caster level for spells per day but the RAW doesn't state this, not in the SRD at least. The Wizard does not get familiar advancement or bonus feats unless the PrC description specifically states that they do.
Dracspero 10-28-04, 12:39 PM	Actually, I think Prestige Classes were originally designed to give DM's options for unique NPCs (or NPC organizations). But they quickly became a hit with the players. In any case, as was mentioned, few people WOULD stay as a straight wizard or sorcerer. However, some PrCs (or their requirements) force you to miss some levels of spellcasting, so you want to avoid those if you want casting to be your primary goal. On the other hand, if you get abilities of another class while at the same time get increases in caster level, then make the other abilities your focus and consider spellcasting your secondary or support abilities. E.g. I am currently playing a Sorcere 4/Fighter 2/Spellsword 2, who will take 1 more level of Spellsword than become an Eldritch Knight. So at 10th level I'll be a 6th level caster. I'm focussing most of my feats on my combat (archery) skills (except for practiced spellcaster of course), because my magic won't necessarily put me in good stead against the kind of foes I'll be facing at that level.
Gamebird 10-28-04, 04:37 PM	I was looking at the Sacred Fist in the Complete Divine for my Monk 2/Wizard 4 and seeing if I could just shift everything that said "divine" for "arcane" and "religion" for "arcana". I'd go up to d8 hit points, better skill slots, better skill choices, Fighter BaB, stacking with monk unarmed damage, faster movement, higher AC, better saves, and better special abilities, all in exchange for losing two levels of spellcasting ability over the course of the 10 level progression. It just seemed like I'd be getting a heck of a lot and giving up very little. So I toned the BaB down to Monk and switched the Fort save to Will (since Wizards are better at that than Fortitude stuff), then stripped off a couple special abilities. I still think the class is way overpowered compared to 10 levels of wizard. I wouldn't be taking this for another 3 levels anyway and I've got to get the DM to approve it, but it seems in line with the other PrC choices. Being in line with other PrCs did not mean it was in line with the base classes though, so I was wondering what I was missing.