+ 1 spell casting leve classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

+ 1 spell casting leve classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
john_bakken
02-18-04, 09:43 PM I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. It is my understanding that when you take a prestige class that adds 1 level to an exisiting spell casting progression that you gain no other benefits. The way I read it, anyone adding levels to a wizard would gain no more spells in their spell books, unless they found/bought the spell. I'm really hoping that I am wrong about this. If I am, can someone point me to the text.

Thanks
Nadaka
02-18-04, 10:50 PM the other "benifiets" they are refering to are the hit dice, BAB, saves, skillpoints and class abilities of the spellcasting class. They specify it that way to keep people from misinterpereting it to mean they gain two hit dice per level. But it isn't worded particularly clearly, the intent is to allow wizards to gain the 2 spells for free each level.
cesare76
07-30-04, 11:07 AM I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level"
Bulabase
07-31-04, 12:45 PM Originally posted by cesare76
I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level"
So this is official then? I wish they would stick this in the FAQ or something.
D.K.R.
07-31-04, 03:59 PM Actually, if you read the other thread, it is worded specifically so that the wizard's two extra spells only progress on wizard lvels, not PrC levels. It is an abaility separated from caster level.
Kerrexl
08-01-04, 01:12 PM Originally posted by cesare76
I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level"
Cesare76, you might want to read my post in "Free spells into spellbook for PrC levels?" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4092357#post4092357).

As I state there, and to quote myself.. :)

Further on, in the 3.5 PHB, it reads under the ability "Spellbooks".
PHB 3.5, page 57:
At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook)Note: Bolding is mine.

So it is written in no uncertain terms in the PHB when you get the free spells.. :)
bitnine
08-01-04, 02:27 PM And some PrCs in turn say that you gain spells known as if you had advanced a level in (for example) wizard: "the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class..."
bitnine
08-01-04, 02:35 PM
Kerrexl
08-01-04, 07:08 PM Originally posted by bitnine
And some PrCs in turn say that you gain spells known as if you had advanced a level in (for example) wizard: "the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class..."

But I would state that it only grants the powers that is within the "Spells" Class ability, and that it does not extend to other class abilities the wizard gets.
You major concern is the notation on "and spells known, if applicable" right.. ?
And if you examine you players Handbook, you will find that the bard and sorcerer both have a "spells known" part weaven into the "Spells" class ability, where the wizard have his "gain 2 spells" removerd from the "spells" class ability, and placed into a seperate ability called "Spellbooks", just like familiar-advancement is seperated from the "spells", and placed in a separate class ability, which is not advanced through "+1 spellcasting level".
bitnine
08-01-04, 09:43 PM But I would state that it only grants the powers that is within the "Spells" Class ability, and that it does not extend to other class abilities the wizard gets.So if you advanced a level in that class that feature wouldn't add to spells known?

I'm slightly curious, now. I don't see any reference to the "spells" class ability in the PrC reference, so is there any particular reason that when a PrC says that you gain spells known as if you had gained a level in that class, you would take it to only mean those provided by a particular class ability?

After all, I don't see "+1 spellcasting" in the tables, rather, there's "+1 level of existing spellcasting class."
Letharion
08-02-04, 08:08 AM Just take a look in the Main FAQ (3.0), the first entry under Prestige Classes:

I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels.

They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard /loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.

And yes, the 3.0 FAQ is still valid as long as no newer source contradicts it specifically.
Kerrexl
08-02-04, 09:38 AM Originally posted by Letharion
Just take a look in the Main FAQ (3.0), the first entry under Prestige Classes:

<quote from 3.0 faq snipped>

And yes, the 3.0 FAQ is still valid as long as no newer source contradicts it specifically.
Yes 3.0 FAQ is still valid, however, please check you 3.0 and 3.5 PHB - wizard Class ability entry, for the ability "Spellbooks".
Under 3.0 it states that as the character gains a level he gains 2 free spells. However under 3.5 it states that when he gains a new wizard level, he gains 2 new spells.
So they have errated the PHB entry, and thus invalided the 3.0 faq, since it adresses a wording found in the 3.0 book, which have been errated in the 3.5 PHB.

and bitnine
So if you advanced a level in that class that feature wouldn't add to spells known?
Sorry, english is a secondary language to me, but I belive you are refering to the case of bars etc. who gains spells known.. ? right. .?
That is not a problem, since bards and sorcerers have spells known incorporated into the spells ability.
Thus if you "advance" the Spells ability, bards and sorcerers would gain both spellls known, and spells per day, however wizards only gains spells per day.

And though it does't state anything about only affecting "spells" ability in the PrC, I would read it that way, sdou to the way the sorcerer and bard entries are made, and the wording of the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" ability.
Particular the wording:
DMG, 3.5 - page 177 - Arcane Trickster: Class Ability "Spells per day":
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benifit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting.<snip rest>
Note the "He does not, however, gain any other benifit a character of that class would have gained", under that i would say that any class ability not related to the spellcasting and spells per day -affecting class ability is included. Thus the only class ability included would be Spells. Since Spellbooks is a class ability similar to feats and familiar, and is not tied to the spells ability in the way that it affects the number of spells a character can cast per day.
Bulabase
08-02-04, 10:48 AM Kerrexl,
Although I believe that from a strict reading of the rules, you are correct, the 3.0 FAQ shows the intention of the designers in this matter. The two free spells are specifically designated as a spellcasting function. The semantic change from the 3.0 to 3.5 version of the PH ensures that a PC doens't get two free spells if she gains a level in a class other than wizard. I still feel that the issue needs clarification, but the designer's intent seems fairly clear to me.

Letharion,
Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit that once, a long time ago, I had seen that very point in the FAQ before, but after 3.5 I just couldn't think of where it was. I hoped someone would have it and would send it this way. Ah, the beauty of the boards.
Letharion
08-03-04, 07:56 AM Note the "He does not, however, gain any other benifit a character of that class would have gained", under that i would say that any class ability not related to the spellcasting and spells per day -affecting class ability is included. Thus the only class ability included would be Spells. Since Spellbooks is a class ability similar to feats and familiar, and is not tied to the spells ability in the way that it affects the number of spells a character can cast per day.

IMHO the Spellbook is no separate class feature but a part of the wizards spellcasting. An arcane trickster who advances spellcasting as a wizard still casts his spells from a spellbook. And that point is never mentioned anywhere. Therefore the spellbook must be part of a wizards spellcasting ability and the two free spells should be, too. So the aforementioned new worded PHB entry doesn't contradict the FAQ 3.0.
Kerrexl
08-03-04, 09:01 AM Originally posted by Letharion
IMHO the Spellbook is no separate class feature but a part of the wizards spellcasting. An arcane trickster who advances spellcasting as a wizard still casts his spells from a spellbook. And that point is never mentioned anywhere. Therefore the spellbook must be part of a wizards spellcasting ability and the two free spells should be, too. So the aforementioned new worded PHB entry doesn't contradict the FAQ 3.0.
Yes, a wizard must still use his/her spellbook - that is also documentet in the "Spells" Class ability. The only thing in the "Spellbooks" ability which is affected by leveling up - is the gaining of two new spell.
Please read both abilities closely... An you will se what the difference is... and read them, and the entries "Spells" under bard and sorcerer class abilities too..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
john_bakken 02-18-04, 09:43 PM	I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. It is my understanding that when you take a prestige class that adds 1 level to an exisiting spell casting progression that you gain no other benefits. The way I read it, anyone adding levels to a wizard would gain no more spells in their spell books, unless they found/bought the spell. I'm really hoping that I am wrong about this. If I am, can someone point me to the text. Thanks
Nadaka 02-18-04, 10:50 PM	the other "benifiets" they are refering to are the hit dice, BAB, saves, skillpoints and class abilities of the spellcasting class. They specify it that way to keep people from misinterpereting it to mean they gain two hit dice per level. But it isn't worded particularly clearly, the intent is to allow wizards to gain the 2 spells for free each level.
cesare76 07-30-04, 11:07 AM	I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level"
Bulabase 07-31-04, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by cesare76 I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level" So this is official then? I wish they would stick this in the FAQ or something.
D.K.R. 07-31-04, 03:59 PM	Actually, if you read the other thread, it is worded specifically so that the wizard's two extra spells only progress on wizard lvels, not PrC levels. It is an abaility separated from caster level.
Kerrexl 08-01-04, 01:12 PM	Originally posted by cesare76 I posted the same question of yours to WotC and they answer me that adding 2 new spells to spellbook is part of gaining "+1 existing class level" Cesare76, you might want to read my post in "Free spells into spellbook for PrC levels?" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4092357#post4092357). As I state there, and to quote myself.. :) Further on, in the 3.5 PHB, it reads under the ability "Spellbooks". PHB 3.5, page 57: At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook)Note: Bolding is mine. So it is written in no uncertain terms in the PHB when you get the free spells.. :)
bitnine 08-01-04, 02:27 PM	And some PrCs in turn say that you gain spells known as if you had advanced a level in (for example) wizard: "the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class..."
bitnine 08-01-04, 02:35 PM
Kerrexl 08-01-04, 07:08 PM	Originally posted by bitnine And some PrCs in turn say that you gain spells known as if you had advanced a level in (for example) wizard: "the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class..." But I would state that it only grants the powers that is within the "Spells" Class ability, and that it does not extend to other class abilities the wizard gets. You major concern is the notation on "and spells known, if applicable" right.. ? And if you examine you players Handbook, you will find that the bard and sorcerer both have a "spells known" part weaven into the "Spells" class ability, where the wizard have his "gain 2 spells" removerd from the "spells" class ability, and placed into a seperate ability called "Spellbooks", just like familiar-advancement is seperated from the "spells", and placed in a separate class ability, which is not advanced through "+1 spellcasting level".
bitnine 08-01-04, 09:43 PM	But I would state that it only grants the powers that is within the "Spells" Class ability, and that it does not extend to other class abilities the wizard gets.So if you advanced a level in that class that feature wouldn't add to spells known? I'm slightly curious, now. I don't see any reference to the "spells" class ability in the PrC reference, so is there any particular reason that when a PrC says that you gain spells known as if you had gained a level in that class, you would take it to only mean those provided by a particular class ability? After all, I don't see "+1 spellcasting" in the tables, rather, there's "+1 level of existing spellcasting class."
Letharion 08-02-04, 08:08 AM	Just take a look in the Main FAQ (3.0), the first entry under Prestige Classes: I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels. They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard /loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting. And yes, the 3.0 FAQ is still valid as long as no newer source contradicts it specifically.
Kerrexl 08-02-04, 09:38 AM	Originally posted by Letharion Just take a look in the Main FAQ (3.0), the first entry under Prestige Classes: <quote from 3.0 faq snipped> And yes, the 3.0 FAQ is still valid as long as no newer source contradicts it specifically. Yes 3.0 FAQ is still valid, however, please check you 3.0 and 3.5 PHB - wizard Class ability entry, for the ability "Spellbooks". Under 3.0 it states that as the character gains a level he gains 2 free spells. However under 3.5 it states that when he gains a new wizard level, he gains 2 new spells. So they have errated the PHB entry, and thus invalided the 3.0 faq, since it adresses a wording found in the 3.0 book, which have been errated in the 3.5 PHB. and bitnine So if you advanced a level in that class that feature wouldn't add to spells known? Sorry, english is a secondary language to me, but I belive you are refering to the case of bars etc. who gains spells known.. ? right. .? That is not a problem, since bards and sorcerers have spells known incorporated into the spells ability. Thus if you "advance" the Spells ability, bards and sorcerers would gain both spellls known, and spells per day, however wizards only gains spells per day. And though it does't state anything about only affecting "spells" ability in the PrC, I would read it that way, sdou to the way the sorcerer and bard entries are made, and the wording of the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" ability. Particular the wording: DMG, 3.5 - page 177 - Arcane Trickster: Class Ability "Spells per day": When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benifit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting.<snip rest> Note the "He does not, however, gain any other benifit a character of that class would have gained", under that i would say that any class ability not related to the spellcasting and spells per day -affecting class ability is included. Thus the only class ability included would be Spells. Since Spellbooks is a class ability similar to feats and familiar, and is not tied to the spells ability in the way that it affects the number of spells a character can cast per day.
Bulabase 08-02-04, 10:48 AM	Kerrexl, Although I believe that from a strict reading of the rules, you are correct, the 3.0 FAQ shows the intention of the designers in this matter. The two free spells are specifically designated as a spellcasting function. The semantic change from the 3.0 to 3.5 version of the PH ensures that a PC doens't get two free spells if she gains a level in a class other than wizard. I still feel that the issue needs clarification, but the designer's intent seems fairly clear to me. Letharion, Thanks for pointing that out. I have to admit that once, a long time ago, I had seen that very point in the FAQ before, but after 3.5 I just couldn't think of where it was. I hoped someone would have it and would send it this way. Ah, the beauty of the boards.
Letharion 08-03-04, 07:56 AM	Note the "He does not, however, gain any other benifit a character of that class would have gained", under that i would say that any class ability not related to the spellcasting and spells per day -affecting class ability is included. Thus the only class ability included would be Spells. Since Spellbooks is a class ability similar to feats and familiar, and is not tied to the spells ability in the way that it affects the number of spells a character can cast per day. IMHO the Spellbook is no separate class feature but a part of the wizards spellcasting. An arcane trickster who advances spellcasting as a wizard still casts his spells from a spellbook. And that point is never mentioned anywhere. Therefore the spellbook must be part of a wizards spellcasting ability and the two free spells should be, too. So the aforementioned new worded PHB entry doesn't contradict the FAQ 3.0.
Kerrexl 08-03-04, 09:01 AM	Originally posted by Letharion IMHO the Spellbook is no separate class feature but a part of the wizards spellcasting. An arcane trickster who advances spellcasting as a wizard still casts his spells from a spellbook. And that point is never mentioned anywhere. Therefore the spellbook must be part of a wizards spellcasting ability and the two free spells should be, too. So the aforementioned new worded PHB entry doesn't contradict the FAQ 3.0. Yes, a wizard must still use his/her spellbook - that is also documentet in the "Spells" Class ability. The only thing in the "Spellbooks" ability which is affected by leveling up - is the gaining of two new spell. Please read both abilities closely... An you will se what the difference is... and read them, and the entries "Spells" under bard and sorcerer class abilities too..