100%+ multiclass penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

100%+ multiclass penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gadren
05-27-07, 11:45 PM So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again?

For example, let's say you have an elven fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 2 / rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / hexblade 1 - a 7th level character with no xp penalty.
You get enough experience for level 8, and you level up in ranger to 3, giving you a multiclass penalty from 5 other classes - a 100% multiclass penalty.
You're character is suddenly unable to learn how become better at anything?
Batshido
05-27-07, 11:48 PM So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again?

For example, let's say you have an elven fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 2 / rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / hexblade 1 - a 7th level character with no xp penalty.
You get enough experience for level 8, and you level up in ranger to 3, giving you a multiclass penalty from 5 other classes - a 100% multiclass penalty.
You're character is suddenly unable to learn how become better at anything?
Well, it's a dumb rule. One that I wantonly ignore. It really makes no sense to be punished for doing things other members of your race simply aren't interested in.

I've just gotten rid of it in my games. I haven't seen the dreaded boogeyman of ultra-crunchified multiclassing yet, and I don't expect to. It's just a way of allowing enterprising players to have fun and try new things.
TheAnthroDM
05-28-07, 12:07 AM O.o Wow. I... never really thought of that.... Wow... just wow.
Peregrine_Wolf
05-28-07, 12:11 AM LOL, that is kinda ironic...the guy who knows about so many things, gets smarter adn then immediately becomes so stupid he can't become smarter.....

ouch
Alyss
05-28-07, 12:12 AM Batshido is right. Multiclassing in itself is a penalty, as you can't get the benefits of more than one class at the same time. Having an XP penalty on top of having to get enough XP to go up a level is unneccessary
risner
05-28-07, 02:22 AM So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again?

I think you need to apply D&D math:

20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less =
0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 =
0.2 =
20 % of the exp you would gain.

So you you got 20,000 exp then you would record 4,000 exp on your character sheet.
TheAnthroDM
05-28-07, 02:23 AM The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins.
Gadren
05-28-07, 04:15 AM I think you need to apply D&D math:

20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less =
0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 =
0.2 =
20 % of the exp you would gain.

So you you got 20,000 exp then you would record 4,000 exp on your character sheet.

No, read the example on pg 60 of the PHB. Its 20% for each class that is more than one away from your highest level, and it gives an example at the top of the second column of a gnomish rogue 9 / bard 2 / fighter 1 / cleric 1 getting a -40% penalty (note that bard is gnome's favored class.)

The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins.

That has been the reason I was hesitant to remove the penalties in games I run. Perhaps favored class should be represented some other way.
Perhaps, if the majority of your levels are in your race's favored class, you should gain a 10% experience bonus? (I'm reminded of second edition where if you had I think 16+ in your classes primary stat you got an experience bonus.)
Gadren
05-28-07, 04:22 AM LOL, that is kinda ironic...the guy who knows about so many things, gets smarter adn then immediately becomes so stupid he can't become smarter.....

ouch

Its funny, if I ever rejoin the RPGA, maybe I should set it up so my character achieves this sort of penalty at the maximum level, therefore preventing "forced retirement" after leveling past the level cap.
Or maybe I should plan to get like an 80% penalty early, and just accumulate an insane amount of treasure for my character.

Of course, I have no intention of ever playing in the RPGA again anyways, so breath easy if you are a member. ;)
Otto the Bugbear
05-28-07, 10:25 AM This is what I do, from my homepage (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/home)

Multi-classing penalties do not exist (because they were a stupid idea and were included to placate whiny 2nd edition play-testers). Wow, that was easy. The favored class mechanic changes two ways. First, every race has two favored classes. Second, characters are considered to have +1 level for class abilities when they multi-class with one of their race’s favored class. This only advances class special abilities. It does not advance base attack bonus, base save bonus, spellcasting, hit dice, or skills (neither skill points nor maximum skill ranks). For example, elves have ranger and druid as favored classes. An elf with 2 levels of ranger and 6 levels of fighter gains class abilities as if he were a 3rd level ranger. His fighter class abilities remain at his actual class level. An elf with 4 levels of ranger and 4 levels of druid must choose to have the class abilities of either a 5th level ranger or a 5th level druid. This does not cover Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, Skill Points or Ranks, Spellcasting or Base Saving Throws

The half-elf and human, with Favored Class: Any can, of course, choose any one class for this purpose.
Ranger REG
05-29-07, 07:42 PM So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again?

For example, let's say you have an elven fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 2 / rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / hexblade 1 - a 7th level character with no xp penalty.
You get enough experience for level 8, and you level up in ranger to 3, giving you a multiclass penalty from 5 other classes - a 100% multiclass penalty.
You're character is suddenly unable to learn how become better at anything?
True, but who here is dumb, idiotic, and/or brain-dead/damaged to do that to their PC's career? :P
Realms of Chaos
05-29-07, 08:59 PM Submit this question to the sage immediately.

Otherwise, I will be forced to bring out the hammer-gun.
Jaxgaret
05-29-07, 09:42 PM Re: Half-Elves (and Humans) losing out when multiclassing penalties are dropped.

Give them something to compensate. Perhaps a free +1 to any one skill? That seems balanced; [FC: Any] barely registers on the power meter.
Treantmonklvl20
05-29-07, 09:52 PM RAW - Yes, you would gain 0% of experience earned.

Fortunately, it is EASY to avoid.
neilthrun
05-29-07, 09:55 PM I'd just cap it at 90% after that 5th base class. And probably encourage some PHBII retraining to get one of those classes as a favored class.
Ranger REG
05-30-07, 05:03 AM I'd just cap it at 90% after that 5th base class. And probably encourage some PHBII retraining to get one of those classes as a favored class.
Hehehe. That's funny. Idiot-proofing the multiclassing rule. :evillaugh
Alyss
05-30-07, 09:26 AM The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins.

I have no qualms about that. My players who wanted to were happy to play half-elves regardless, just cause they liked half-elves.

But anyway, I hate elves and all their pointy-eared subraces
Salla
05-30-07, 11:14 AM This is one of many reasons I don't use that rule. :)

Half-elves were gimpy even with the favored class rule (I throw them the human extra skill points), and I give humans a +2 to a stat with no minus (and still nobody plays them).
Batshido
05-30-07, 11:18 AM I give humans a +2 to a stat with no minus (and still nobody plays them).
Whoa, really? That's crazy. The bonus feat is huge at early levels, and the ability to keep an extra skill maxed out all the way through your career can be quite a boon if you have prerequisites to meet. Add a stat bonus on top of that (which can be applied to your primary melee or casting stat as you see fit) and you've got a lot of upside there.

I've never had a problem getting people to play humans.
Nathreet
05-30-07, 11:41 AM Re: Half-Elves (and Humans) losing out when multiclassing penalties are dropped.

Give them something to compensate. Perhaps a free +1 to any one skill? That seems balanced; [FC: Any] barely registers on the power meter.

Nah, I've had builds which basically had to be human because of FC: Any. It's useful at the right times.
Salla
05-30-07, 11:47 AM Whoa, really? That's crazy. The bonus feat is huge at early levels, and the ability to keep an extra skill maxed out all the way through your career can be quite a boon if you have prerequisites to meet. Add a stat bonus on top of that (which can be applied to your primary melee or casting stat as you see fit) and you've got a lot of upside there.

I've never had a problem getting people to play humans.

It's a group quirk. To quote one player, "If I wanted to be a human, I'd go outside."
Light_Colonel
05-30-07, 01:15 PM I don't have my book on me right now, nor can I access the SRD from work. So, while it says that the penalty increases, does it actually say something like "If you had a 20% xp penalty, then got 1000 xp, you would receive only 800 xp"?

I had always been under the impression (must be a 2e holdover) that the xp penalty applied to the amount of xp you needed to earn. Thus if you need 5000 xp for level X, with a 20% xp penalty you would have to earn 6000 xp, 40% would have to earn 7000 xp and so on, until you get to 100% where you need 10000 xp, 120%, or 140 etc.
Jon of the North
05-30-07, 02:28 PM True, but who here is dumb, idiotic, and/or brain-dead/damaged to do that to their PC's career? :P

THANK YOU. QfT right here. Who the mamma mia has 6 base classes?
Stumpy_the_Tall
05-30-07, 03:15 PM Honestly when it has been used in games I play in (I don't like it either) I always assumed it went the other way. Instead of getting 10% less EXP from the encounter you just needed 10% more EXP to level. Thus if you REALLY wanted to, then you would need 100% more EXP to level up.

After I explain that to any new DMs I generally get them to toss the idea to. They have a tough time managing more then 6 people at the table, let alone complicated math! (and yes I am just mean enough to do a character with a 60-70% exp penality in the first campaign just to make them see the light)
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-30-07, 06:17 PM The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins.
Isn't that kinda like spitting on a fish?
Alpha_Moose
05-30-07, 07:11 PM I don't use the multiclass penalty, like others here. All it does is make extra work for the DM (though admittedly not much).

But anyway, I hate elves and all their pointy-eared subraces
Elves were turned to complete craptastic French-acrobat by making them a player race. Heck, even Lord of the Rings made the elves worse than they were origionally. Seriously, in the Silmarillion they were cool. Most would bite off your head if you said something bad about their mommas and then kill everyone around them in a blood-frenzied rage. A -2 Con doesn't fit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 05-27-07, 11:45 PM	So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again? For example, let's say you have an elven fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 2 / rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / hexblade 1 - a 7th level character with no xp penalty. You get enough experience for level 8, and you level up in ranger to 3, giving you a multiclass penalty from 5 other classes - a 100% multiclass penalty. You're character is suddenly unable to learn how become better at anything?
Batshido 05-27-07, 11:48 PM	So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again? For example, let's say you have an elven fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 2 / rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / hexblade 1 - a 7th level character with no xp penalty. You get enough experience for level 8, and you level up in ranger to 3, giving you a multiclass penalty from 5 other classes - a 100% multiclass penalty. You're character is suddenly unable to learn how become better at anything? Well, it's a dumb rule. One that I wantonly ignore. It really makes no sense to be punished for doing things other members of your race simply aren't interested in. I've just gotten rid of it in my games. I haven't seen the dreaded boogeyman of ultra-crunchified multiclassing yet, and I don't expect to. It's just a way of allowing enterprising players to have fun and try new things.
TheAnthroDM 05-28-07, 12:07 AM	O.o Wow. I... never really thought of that.... Wow... just wow.
Peregrine_Wolf 05-28-07, 12:11 AM	LOL, that is kinda ironic...the guy who knows about so many things, gets smarter adn then immediately becomes so stupid he can't become smarter..... ouch
Alyss 05-28-07, 12:12 AM	Batshido is right. Multiclassing in itself is a penalty, as you can't get the benefits of more than one class at the same time. Having an XP penalty on top of having to get enough XP to go up a level is unneccessary
risner 05-28-07, 02:22 AM	So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again? I think you need to apply D&D math: 20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less = 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 0.2 = 20 % of the exp you would gain. So you you got 20,000 exp then you would record 4,000 exp on your character sheet.
TheAnthroDM 05-28-07, 02:23 AM	The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins.
Gadren 05-28-07, 04:15 AM	I think you need to apply D&D math: 20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less * 20% less = 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 = 0.2 = 20 % of the exp you would gain. So you you got 20,000 exp then you would record 4,000 exp on your character sheet. No, read the example on pg 60 of the PHB. Its 20% for each class that is more than one away from your highest level, and it gives an example at the top of the second column of a gnomish rogue 9 / bard 2 / fighter 1 / cleric 1 getting a -40% penalty (note that bard is gnome's favored class.) The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins. That has been the reason I was hesitant to remove the penalties in games I run. Perhaps favored class should be represented some other way. Perhaps, if the majority of your levels are in your race's favored class, you should gain a 10% experience bonus? (I'm reminded of second edition where if you had I think 16+ in your classes primary stat you got an experience bonus.)
Gadren 05-28-07, 04:22 AM	LOL, that is kinda ironic...the guy who knows about so many things, gets smarter adn then immediately becomes so stupid he can't become smarter..... ouch Its funny, if I ever rejoin the RPGA, maybe I should set it up so my character achieves this sort of penalty at the maximum level, therefore preventing "forced retirement" after leveling past the level cap. Or maybe I should plan to get like an 80% penalty early, and just accumulate an insane amount of treasure for my character. Of course, I have no intention of ever playing in the RPGA again anyways, so breath easy if you are a member. ;)
Otto the Bugbear 05-28-07, 10:25 AM	This is what I do, from my homepage (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/home) Multi-classing penalties do not exist (because they were a stupid idea and were included to placate whiny 2nd edition play-testers). Wow, that was easy. The favored class mechanic changes two ways. First, every race has two favored classes. Second, characters are considered to have +1 level for class abilities when they multi-class with one of their race’s favored class. This only advances class special abilities. It does not advance base attack bonus, base save bonus, spellcasting, hit dice, or skills (neither skill points nor maximum skill ranks). For example, elves have ranger and druid as favored classes. An elf with 2 levels of ranger and 6 levels of fighter gains class abilities as if he were a 3rd level ranger. His fighter class abilities remain at his actual class level. An elf with 4 levels of ranger and 4 levels of druid must choose to have the class abilities of either a 5th level ranger or a 5th level druid. This does not cover Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, Skill Points or Ranks, Spellcasting or Base Saving Throws The half-elf and human, with Favored Class: Any can, of course, choose any one class for this purpose.
Ranger REG 05-29-07, 07:42 PM	So, if you manage to wrack up a multiclass penalty of 100% or higher, you can never gain experience again? For example, let's say you have an elven fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / ranger 2 / rogue 1 / swashbuckler 1 / hexblade 1 - a 7th level character with no xp penalty. You get enough experience for level 8, and you level up in ranger to 3, giving you a multiclass penalty from 5 other classes - a 100% multiclass penalty. You're character is suddenly unable to learn how become better at anything? True, but who here is dumb, idiotic, and/or brain-dead/damaged to do that to their PC's career? :P
Realms of Chaos 05-29-07, 08:59 PM	Submit this question to the sage immediately. Otherwise, I will be forced to bring out the hammer-gun.
Jaxgaret 05-29-07, 09:42 PM	Re: Half-Elves (and Humans) losing out when multiclassing penalties are dropped. Give them something to compensate. Perhaps a free +1 to any one skill? That seems balanced; [FC: Any] barely registers on the power meter.
Treantmonklvl20 05-29-07, 09:52 PM	RAW - Yes, you would gain 0% of experience earned. Fortunately, it is EASY to avoid.
neilthrun 05-29-07, 09:55 PM	I'd just cap it at 90% after that 5th base class. And probably encourage some PHBII retraining to get one of those classes as a favored class.
Ranger REG 05-30-07, 05:03 AM	I'd just cap it at 90% after that 5th base class. And probably encourage some PHBII retraining to get one of those classes as a favored class. Hehehe. That's funny. Idiot-proofing the multiclassing rule. :evillaugh
Alyss 05-30-07, 09:26 AM	The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins. I have no qualms about that. My players who wanted to were happy to play half-elves regardless, just cause they liked half-elves. But anyway, I hate elves and all their pointy-eared subraces
Salla 05-30-07, 11:14 AM	This is one of many reasons I don't use that rule. :) Half-elves were gimpy even with the favored class rule (I throw them the human extra skill points), and I give humans a +2 to a stat with no minus (and still nobody plays them).
Batshido 05-30-07, 11:18 AM	I give humans a +2 to a stat with no minus (and still nobody plays them). Whoa, really? That's crazy. The bonus feat is huge at early levels, and the ability to keep an extra skill maxed out all the way through your career can be quite a boon if you have prerequisites to meet. Add a stat bonus on top of that (which can be applied to your primary melee or casting stat as you see fit) and you've got a lot of upside there. I've never had a problem getting people to play humans.
Nathreet 05-30-07, 11:41 AM	Re: Half-Elves (and Humans) losing out when multiclassing penalties are dropped. Give them something to compensate. Perhaps a free +1 to any one skill? That seems balanced; [FC: Any] barely registers on the power meter. Nah, I've had builds which basically had to be human because of FC: Any. It's useful at the right times.
Salla 05-30-07, 11:47 AM	Whoa, really? That's crazy. The bonus feat is huge at early levels, and the ability to keep an extra skill maxed out all the way through your career can be quite a boon if you have prerequisites to meet. Add a stat bonus on top of that (which can be applied to your primary melee or casting stat as you see fit) and you've got a lot of upside there. I've never had a problem getting people to play humans. It's a group quirk. To quote one player, "If I wanted to be a human, I'd go outside."
Light_Colonel 05-30-07, 01:15 PM	I don't have my book on me right now, nor can I access the SRD from work. So, while it says that the penalty increases, does it actually say something like "If you had a 20% xp penalty, then got 1000 xp, you would receive only 800 xp"? I had always been under the impression (must be a 2e holdover) that the xp penalty applied to the amount of xp you needed to earn. Thus if you need 5000 xp for level X, with a 20% xp penalty you would have to earn 6000 xp, 40% would have to earn 7000 xp and so on, until you get to 100% where you need 10000 xp, 120%, or 140 etc.
Jon of the North 05-30-07, 02:28 PM	True, but who here is dumb, idiotic, and/or brain-dead/damaged to do that to their PC's career? :P THANK YOU. QfT right here. Who the mamma mia has 6 base classes?
Stumpy_the_Tall 05-30-07, 03:15 PM	Honestly when it has been used in games I play in (I don't like it either) I always assumed it went the other way. Instead of getting 10% less EXP from the encounter you just needed 10% more EXP to level. Thus if you REALLY wanted to, then you would need 100% more EXP to level up. After I explain that to any new DMs I generally get them to toss the idea to. They have a tough time managing more then 6 people at the table, let alone complicated math! (and yes I am just mean enough to do a character with a 60-70% exp penality in the first campaign just to make them see the light)
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-30-07, 06:17 PM	The side effect to taking away the penalties however is kicking the half-elf in the shins. Isn't that kinda like spitting on a fish?
Alpha_Moose 05-30-07, 07:11 PM	I don't use the multiclass penalty, like others here. All it does is make extra work for the DM (though admittedly not much). But anyway, I hate elves and all their pointy-eared subraces Elves were turned to complete craptastic French-acrobat by making them a player race. Heck, even Lord of the Rings made the elves worse than they were origionally. Seriously, in the Silmarillion they were cool. Most would bite off your head if you said something bad about their mommas and then kill everyone around them in a blood-frenzied rage. A -2 Con doesn't fit.