Post/Author/DateTime	Post
l33t Shinobi 10-03-05, 04:50 PM	ok, i have a 1/2elf bard, lvl4. 5 ranks in bluff, sense motive, and Know(nob. and royalty), 7 ranks in diplomacy, negotiator, skill focus, and a 20 cha. now he can diplomacy his way out of any situation. take 10-10(rushed check) +6(synergy) +2(racial) +7(dip.) +5(Cha) +2(negotiator)+3 (skill focus)= 27... he can turn a hstile enemy into indifferent in a single round. the next time, he can take 10 and 10 rounds to make them freindly. in 2 levels, he'll have 9 ranks in dip; a better Cloak of Cha, and a headband of persuasion, and can turn ppl hostile to friendly in one turn. is there something wrong with that?
Salla 10-03-05, 05:04 PM	Well, firstly, the creature in question must be willing or compelled to listen (good example: A half-elf hating bureaucrat ... it's his job to listen, even if he hates you on sight). If it really wants to eat you, it doesn't matter how diplomatic you are. So, out of combat, you're going to do fine. In combat, you're probably hosed. You have to share a language. It has to be sentient ("Mr. Skeleton, how good to see you today. Have you been losing weight?").
Count Arioch the 28th 10-03-05, 05:28 PM	he can turn a hstile enemy into indifferent in a single round. Yeah, if he rolls an 18 or higher. DC to change hostile to indifferent = 25 Penalty to diplomacy for one round duration = -10 At 1d20 + 27 -10, you'd have to roll an 18 to get 25. : Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check
rks 10-03-05, 05:39 PM	Well, take a level of warlock to that half-elf bard. Gain +6 to diplomacy 24 hrs each day... Oh, and then take a level of cleric and take the Mind and Herald domains somehow. Gain +4 sacred bonus to Diplomacy and +2 unnamed bonus to Diplomacy again. At lvl 6, you'll be looking at (not 27) but +41, without items...
AOG_Rogue 10-03-05, 05:41 PM	Check your math Count, he only needs an 8... Also the original poster made an error and his numbers only add up to 25 not 27.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-03-05, 05:44 PM	At 1d20 + 27 -10, you'd have to roll an 18 to get 25. Nah, Eight is Enough (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075500/) . Sorry about the pun.
Super_Demolition_Christ 10-03-05, 07:06 PM	you cant take 10 on diplomacy checks like that. At least not hastily making a diplomacy check in a full round
l33t Shinobi 10-03-05, 07:24 PM	feh, it depends on your definition of threated, wheather he can take10 or not. Diplomacy (Cha) Check You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party. See also epic usages of Diplomacy. Action Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check. Try Again Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile. Special A half-elf has a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks. If you have the Negotiator feat, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks. Synergy If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks. i dont see why i couldnt use this in combat.. please explain. aside from the already mentioned facts, why wouldnt this work?
baalzamon999 10-03-05, 07:32 PM	For one thing, you couldn't take 10 in combat. Secondly, the results of Diplomacy don't usually stack, so you'd be stuck with your original result (indifferent in the first case). But, with that 133t modifier of +41, you could probably turn him firndly in your first try.
Judging Eagle 10-03-05, 08:12 PM	Ugh, don't you people freaking read? You can use Dip as a FULL ROUND ACTION (6 seconds) as long as you take -10 to your roll. Also, take a look at the evangelist, you can perfrom hurried diplomacy without that -10 penalty. Tongues would also help, or taking the Polyglot feat (you have to spend I think 3-5 skill points on non-racial/class languages and then you can speak any language). You will then be able to use diplomacy in a hurry (full round) with your full modifier (get at least a +24 and you'll always pull off DC 25 since a roll of 1 on a skill check is never an auto-fail, 1=auto-fail is for saves/attack rolls only) on any sentient being that can be spoken too (ie. int 3+ and that can hear you) thanks to Polyglot (can speak ANY language, even that of birds/animals/fish/celesials/elementals/demons/devils/etc. . Hope that helps.
kalstrand 10-03-05, 08:54 PM	Then you have to take into account the Circumstance bonus applied by the DM. If you are squaring off against you arch enemy and his cronies his Circumstance bonus to his opposed roll is going to be about 10 more than you need to alter his attitude even 1 category because there is no change you are going to alter his attitude.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-03-05, 09:00 PM	You know what, when I screw up on math, I screw up pretty hardcore. I don't think anyone can say they screwed up as hardcore as I did earlier. That in and of itself is an accomplishment. :P
Ozymandias V. 10-03-05, 09:17 PM	Diplomacy is not mind control. Golems will not listen. Animals cannot listen. Magical beasts and vicious demons are not inclined to listen. Mindless creatures are completely immune. A slavering army of orcs bent on destroying all humans WILL NOT LISTEN. Dimplomacy's effects are largely the DM's responsibility.
Maraxus 10-03-05, 09:19 PM	kalstrand has a good point, Diplomacy is one skill, where the dm can set up circumstance modifiers as he pleases. And this includes a +impossible or +auto-success. One thing that should never work is that an hostile something walks up to the players ready to smash them, then one player sais: "I use diplomacy.", rolls a check and the enemy is no longer hostile. Diplomacy can be used to make the least reasonable arguments sound reasonable. So, if that character instead said: "Hey, you are a mercenary, right? I bet, I can offer you more." he would have to roll diplomacy (at least if the character is right, and the enemy is not siply a psicotic murderer). On a failed check the merc decides to better not get the reputation of somebody who does not finish the job, on a successful check he is willing to talk about money (a bluff check could then be necessary, too). If the merc is especially greedy, such an offer could even give a bonus on the check, but the diplomate could also try something like: "Look, we will only give you 100gp. This is probably less then you would get for killing us, but at least you can be sure you survive the day." In that case there would probably be a penalty on the check (probably depending on a intimidate check).
jbrsci 10-03-05, 09:26 PM	Diplomacy is not mind control. Might want to listen to that. Diplomacy assumes your target can be reasoned with, convinced, or otherwise told that a certain action would be good or bad. If the creature is racially or circumstantially immune to persuasive reasoning, then don't even bother. Diplomacy only goes so far.
Kuraito 10-03-05, 11:44 PM	Ok Diplomacy is pretty sweet. I had a Swashbuckler who used it rather effectivly. But your a BARD. There is one thing thats bard have which is just flat out SICK. Glibness. My play group calls Glibness "Jedi Mind Trick". That with max ranks, you wave your hand...and people believe ANYTHING. Even when trying to convince someone your a polymorphed Lammasu you get +10 from glibness on top of your normal bluff bonus. Not many are going to make that check. With clever wording, you can convince someone of anything. "Excuse me sir, but did you know the sky is really black?" What? Pretty sure thats blue. "No, no, you just THINK its blue." Procede with BS story on why the sky is REALLY black, make your roll.....Wow, it IS black, I can't believe I never noticed that. The power to make anyone believe anything you say is flat out insane. Diplomacy should be back up my half-elf freind, Glibness is where its at.
Maraxus 10-04-05, 12:04 AM	*checks this* Wow, you are right, a +30 unnamed bonus. Let's say you are level 10, then you should be able to have good chance for a -10 bluff against a common Joe-the -Farmer already. And I don't know much bluffs that should take more then a -40 penalty. Well maybe if you want to make hi disbelief more then one of his senses at once. I think "I am invisible and silenced, therefore you do not perceive me, that could be a -50 bluff. But if you simply say "I am just an Major image cast by a wizard to fool you, it is save to ignore me." - that would not be much harder then -30. ;) Jedi mind trick is a good name for that. :D
DarknessEternal 10-04-05, 12:45 AM	Don't forget, Diplomacy does not change anyone's opinion of your friends. It changes their attitude towards only you. So that leads to two interesting points that no one ever thinks about: 1. What kind of stuff would you figure you're saying when you convince a blood-thirsty maniac intent on eating you and you're friends that you're his buddy (but your friends aren't)? 2. Would your friends really appreciate that from you (since now you're talking about eating them as well)? And let's all remember, the action is called "influence attitudes". It is not called "warp mental properties".
AbyssKnight 10-04-05, 01:14 AM	My favorite example of when Diplomacy did not work..... An assasin attacks the party and on PC rolls well enough to turn the assasin from Hostile to Friendly. The assasin procedes to continue attacking the party. When asked about why, the DM responds, "Yes, the assasin now considered you his friend, but he was paid a lot of money to kill you and this guy would have killed his own mother for a nickel. Friend or not, he was getting his money."
JTalbain 10-04-05, 01:31 AM	*checks this* Wow, you are right, a +30 unnamed bonus. Let's say you are level 10, then you should be able to have good chance for a -10 bluff against a common Joe-the -Farmer already. And I don't know much bluffs that should take more then a -40 penalty. Well maybe if you want to make hi disbelief more then one of his senses at once. I think "I am invisible and silenced, therefore you do not perceive me, that could be a -50 bluff. But if you simply say "I am just an Major image cast by a wizard to fool you, it is save to ignore me." - that would not be much harder then -30. ;) Jedi mind trick is a good name for that. :D I remember the Epic Level Handbook giving -50 as an appropriate modifier to give your bluff the power of a Suggestion. One of the examples given is "My that pool of acid looks refreshing. Care for a dip?", so I think it would be an appropriate modifier to apply to most extreme circumstances.
SwiftFox 10-04-05, 01:35 AM	Im afraid the potential of a half-elf bard is far greater than any of you realised... columns : (level)(diplomacy modifier)(class)(feats) 01 +12 (half-elf bard substitution) sacred vow, vow of poverty 02 +21 (bard) nymph’s kiss 03 +24 (bard) negotiator 04 +25 (bard) vow of non-violence 05 +26 (bard) 06 +34 (evangelist) skill focus : diplomacy, vow of peace 07 +35 (evangelist) 08 +36 (evangelist) words of creation 09 +40 (evangelist) complementary insight 10 +41 (evangelist) vow of abstinence 11 +42 (half-elf bard substitution) 12 +43 (bard) extra music, vow of chastity 13 +44 (bard) 14 +45 (bard) nimbus of light 15 +46 (bard) extra music 16 +47 (half-elf bard substitution) holy radiance This build makes use of the following sourcebooks : unearthed arcana(flaw), book of exalted deeds(exalted feats), races of destiny(half-elf bard substitution levels, complementary insight), complete divine (evangelist). As you can see here, a half-elf bard reaches his peak level of diplomacy gain around 9th level, at a whopping +40 which is enough to turn any hostile creature not merely indifferent, but FRIENDLY, as the evangelist allows you to take 10 on your roll, and make diplomacy rolls as a full-round action rather than a 1 minute action at merely -5, resulting in a total of 45... in 5 more levels this results in a total of +50, making hostile creatures not merely friendly but HELPFUL. Technically, this character can automatically turn any hostile creature friendly in a single round from as low as 7th level. Of course, there is plausability to consider : the bard must be able to speak the language of the hostile creature, which can be accomplished either by learning languages which is easy enough for a bard as they are a class skill, or alternately via the spell tongues, which is a 2nd level bard spell which can be cast as early as 4th level; by 7th level this spell can be in effect for 3.5 hours a day, or 6 hours a day by 9th level. It does not matter how willing the creature is to listen : that is already reflected by the DC of the diplomacy check because of their attitude, and the modifier for a rushed situation, all that matters is that they can hear and understand the bard. If you dont think this sounds reasonable, well, you've obviously never considered how charismatic and persuasive a person with a +40 modifier to diplomacy is... they can make you believe through non-magical means of the total rightness of their own viewpoint... we are talking about someone with such force of personality as has never been seen on this earth before. If this character tells a rampaging orc 'stop! put down your weapon!' then the orc is persuaded that this is a reasonable thing to do and complies immediately, its as simple as that.
BlaineTog 10-04-05, 01:42 AM	To the Diplomacy naysayers, read Going Postal. There's a guy that knows how to really min/max his diplo checks. To the Diplomacy paladins, read Going Postal. There's a guy that, despite having a ludicruous diplo check, is still an expert at running.
bomaz 10-04-05, 02:20 AM	look in epic lvl handbook at epic use of diplomacy. that is warp mental attitude. also dont forgett one lvl exemplar to always be able to take 10
Maraxus 10-04-05, 02:54 AM	SwiftFox: I wouldn't call that "potential", simply because ... half of all dms (from those I know all, but I have read in this boards, that we play quite conservative), at least half of all dms would look at this and laugh. Funny enough the fact, that you did not even choose a flaw. "I took a flaw" is somehow a justification to have more feats then normally, nothing more. Thats why flaws= bad. ... And book of exalted deets: Fine, at the point a player takes the vow of peacethe character becomes an NPC, because his vow takes such a position in his live, that he can't adventure anymore. And the vow of povertry ... bad vow, isn't even allowed for NPCs, not to speak of PCs.
adamb0nd 10-04-05, 03:34 AM	If your just pushing numbers, you can make any thing as high as you want. Any thing from 28's in deplomacy at 4th level, or +10 to thrown attacks at level 1. If your looking to be a munchkin, then yeah, you can have bizzar and high stats in what ever you want, its really not that hard. I suggest instead of being a mullet, find a character. You'll find that it takes alot more time and thought then the math.
SwiftFox 10-04-05, 04:18 AM	SwiftFox: I wouldn't call that "potential", simply because ... half of all dms (from those I know all, but I have read in this boards, that we play quite conservative), at least half of all dms would look at this and laugh. Funny enough the fact, that you did not even choose a flaw. "I took a flaw" is somehow a justification to have more feats then normally, nothing more. Thats why flaws= bad. ... And book of exalted deets: Fine, at the point a player takes the vow of peacethe character becomes an NPC, because his vow takes such a position in his live, that he can't adventure anymore. And the vow of povertry ... bad vow, isn't even allowed for NPCs, not to speak of PCs.Hey, I dont like flaws either, I was just saying how it could be done. Because flaw is an optional rule, its entirely up to the DM if he allows it, and if he does, well, hopefully he realises the potential repocussions. Even without the flaw, it only pushes back the level at which vow of poverty can be taken by 2 levels, so it only delays this build's ascent to ultimate power by 2-3 levels. As for exalted feats... some people love them, some hate them... your opinion might be that they arent suitable for PCs, but many players and DMs use them just fine, so dont be so hasty to dismiss them. These feats havent been munchikised, or used to do anything out of the ordinary, theyre being taken mainly as a way to get big diplomacy bonuses, and of course they are complimentary to the character concept : a wandering holy-man who converts the unrighteous with mere spoken word, and does so without giving into gross worldly tempations such as ownership of posessions or by harming anyone or advocating violence... if a player wanted to try a character concept simmilar to this, he might as well do it well; i mean, who'd want to be poor, meek AND suck at everything? might as well kick-ass at diplomacy :D
damienroy77 10-04-05, 04:49 AM	I find this thread most interesting, in races of Eberron the changeling Rogue level 1 can take 10 to diplomacy rolls with his "social intuition". I have a rogue1 wizard2, however my DM does not accept diplomacy rolls easily. I only have +7 but with the right combination of second level spells next level I can expect +19 without even adding rank in diplomacy. However I don't think I'll go for it as it is clear that he won't like it and will give penalty to all my rolls. My problem is that it is always ok for the kid at the table to claim his character can attack with +19 attack bonus, "Hu I attack the golem with my sword, dunno how my metal sword can mash stone but here you go I roll" and no one sees it a problem but a lot of DM will not allow someone to roll a diplomacy and claim "I don't have a single clue how but my character will find the right words"...
Douglas Zuver 10-04-05, 12:08 PM	Bluff from the Player's Handbook: "A successful Bluff check indicates that the subject that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually one round or less) or believes something you want it to believe. Bluff, however is not a suggestion spell. For example, you could use a bluff to put a shopkepper off guard by saying that his shoes are untied. At best, such a bluff would make the shopkepper glance down at his shoes. It would not cause him to ignore you and fiddle with his shoes." Epic Level Handbook sheds some light on this subject: A character would probably need to be an epic character to gain these advantages. Epic Skills Bluff You can implant a nonmagical suggestion in a target, display a false alignment, or disguise your surface thoughts. Instill suggestion in target +50 Modifier "I'll bet you could use a cooling swim. A dip in that pool of acid would be refreshing" {This would be added to other modifiers such as the Bluff is almost too incredible to believe +20. The suggestion lasts only 10 rounds. Glibness probably cannot help here because it has a restriction to only helps to make someone believe what you are saying is truth.} Display false alignment DC 70 Disguise surface thoughts DC 100 ................ Epic Skill Diplomacy You can turn a person into a fanatic follower. Refer to the following table: Hostile to Fanatic takes 150 DC Treat the fanatic attitude as mind affecting enchantment effect for the purpose of immunity, save bonus, or to be detected by Sense Motive Skills. {A Fanatic will give their life to serve you. The effect lasts 1 day plus one day per charisma modifier.}
SwiftFox 10-04-05, 12:11 PM	That is true damienroy77, using diplomacy requires a level of fore-thought on the players behalf, and a certain degree of cooperation from the DM too, if it is to produce useful results... some players simply dont have a clue as to how to roleplay a charismatic character, just as many DMs arent prepared for characters who attempt to find RPing solutions to scenarios the DM expected to be resolved with combat. I wouldnt recommend playing a social-oriented character unless it was discussed in some detail with the DM beforehand, to ensure that the character will be appropriate for the type of campaign being run, and of course so that the DM can ensure that there will be situations where use of diplomacy will be a boon without letting the 'change NPC attitude' mechanic dominate the game.
Douglas Zuver 10-04-05, 12:12 PM	Diplomacy should be strong but not mind control like. If every creature attacked everything on sight, dungeons and cities would be almost deserted.
Douglas Zuver 10-04-05, 12:16 PM	SwiftFox has very good advice. :clap:
SwiftFox 10-04-05, 12:27 PM	FYI : the epic level handbook is obsolete, and with regards to that particular use of diplomacy... well, the 5th level class feature of evangelist (convert the unfaithful) lets you expend a bardic music check to force a (DC 15 + cha) will save on an enemy or they are charmed as the spell charm monster for a duration of 1 day/character level, and its alignement is changed to match the casters... thats 9+ days the bard has to convince that creature to permanently adopt that alignment, which can also be handled with regular diplomacy checks + positive reinforcement. That being said, diplomacy is hardly all-powerful... it quite tough to get it as high as in my example, and certainly not without building an entire character concept around it which many players will be unwilling to do. Rich Burlew has some ideas about how diplomacy could be improved, and I think they are worth reading : link (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html)
DarknessEternal 10-04-05, 01:10 PM	If this character tells a rampaging orc 'stop! put down your weapon!' then the orc is persuaded that this is a reasonable thing to do and complies immediately, its as simple as that. Only if said orc were not interested in fighting anyway. Diplomacy cannot force someone to obey your commands, ever, even if they are Friendly. The above command would actually be an automatic failure. You're not going to make friends with many people by insisting they commit suicide.
Quoriil 10-04-05, 01:35 PM	Those half elf substitution levels also supply the half-elf bard with something that is not so DM mood dependant, and still uses the diplo modifier. I can't recall exactly what its called but you use up a bardic music attempt and create a calm emotions effect where the duration is 'concentration' and the DC is set at the result of your diplo roll... so, a 9th level bard can crank out 9 DC 40+ calm emotion effects per day, each with a relatively unlimited duration... yay races of destiny. :mad:
SwiftFox 10-04-05, 09:45 PM	Yes Quoriil, its called soothing voice and works pretty much the way you describre... I knew i put that substitution level in there for a reason :D Update : As a substitute to taking a flaw, a half-elf diplomat could instead take levels in the half-elf paragon class from unearthed arcana, which is a lot more balanced than the flaw system, considering that players always pick the flaw that almost never matters to their character. Half-elf paragon gives him a bonus feat, an extra +1 to diplomacy checks, and an extra +2 to one stat (cha) over 3 levels... compliments the build i outlined nicely, enhances it a further +2.