Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 12-09-06, 06:12 PM	I am converting the 1st ed. AD&D Barbarian to 3.5 D&D. My favorite version of the barbarian class has always been the 1st ed. version, which wasn't a raging or berserking barbarian, but simply a barbaric barbarian. Some people playing 1st ed. were of the opinion that the Barbarian was overpowered, I am of the opinion it was workable . . . with some work. Overall the classes in 3rd ed. are more powerful than previous editions. My goal is to keep the flavor and abilities of the 1st ed. Barbarian in the conversion: (Changes from the 3rd ed. Barbarian are in red) BARBARIAN Alignment: Any nonlawful. Hit Die: d12. Class Skills The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Barbarian Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Disdain magic, fast movement, illiteracy, improved ability bonuses 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Powerful will +1 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved uncanny dodge 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Powerful will +2 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Powerful will +3 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Powerful will +4 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Powerful will +5 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Powerful will +6 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Class Features All of the following are class features of the barbarian. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Disdain Magic:A barbarian disdains the use of magic by himself or others around him. He will not use any item which is obviously magical (such as anything causing "flashy" magic) and will attempt to make others not use such magic or even destroy such magic. How he goes about this depends on his mood or even alignment. Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Illiteracy: Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak. A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had. Improved Ability Bonuses (Ex): A barbarian doubles the bonuses from their Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores. The barbarian must be wearing padded, leather or hide armor to have the doubling of the bonus from their Dexterity score applied to their Armor Class. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Powerful Will (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against Mind-Affecting spells and spell effects. This bonus rises by +1 every three barbarian levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character. Ex-Barbarians A barbarian who becomes lawful or multi-classes loses the improved ability bonuses and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits or detriments of the class (disdain magic, fast movement, illiteracy, improved uncanny dodge, powerful will and uncanny dodge). I replaced Rage and Damage Reduction with Improved Ability Bonuses to simulate the 1st ed. Barbarian's doubling of ability bonuses for their Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores. This gives roughly the same bonuses that a 3rd ed. barbarian gains from Rage from their increased Strength and Constitution scores, and in addition increases Dexterity (but Armor Class only in padded, leather or hide armor). The Hit Points gained are permanent, and don't go away as when Rage is over. Damage Reduction, isn't necessary due to the increase in Hit Points either. The bonuses are also not subject to an ability with uses per day. Uncanny Dodge is similar to the 1st ed. Barbarian's Back Protection ability and along with Improved Uncanny Dodge, provides the same protection against Rogues it previously did against Thieves (now called Rogues). Trap Sense wasn't an original ability, thus was removed. To simulate the 1st ed. Barbarian's save bonuses against spells and spell effects with a Will save, I gave him Powerful Will to increase his Will save against such magic at all times, rather than just when raging (such as Indominatable Will gives). This variant barbarian's increased Con and Dex bonuses take care of the 1st ed. Barbarian's save bonuses against other spells, spell effects and supernatural abilities (such as breath weapons). This variant barbarian disdains magic, as the 1st ed. Barbarian did, but instead of not being able to use most magic, he can use non-flashy (DM's call) type magic. This would include such things as a +1 to +5 weapon, armor or shield without any flashy magical abilities which the barbarian would think are "magical", rather than just good weapons, armor or shields. By doing it this way, it takes away the need to convert two other abilities the 1st ed. Barbarian had, which were detect magic (to sense magic and either not use it or destroy it) and the ability to strike creatures which require a magic weapon to strike (since he couldn't/wouldn't use a magic weapon). Last, but not least, I gave this variant barbarian Heal, Hide and Knowledge (nature) as class skills. This was done to simulate the 1st ed. Barbarian's Hide in Natural Surroundings, First Aid and Outdoor Craft skills. All of the 1st ed. Barbarian's other skills can be simulated by his other class skills and feat choices. Please feel free to comment If you have knowledge of the 1st ed. Barbarian's abilities, as comments should be made with that knowledge in mind. IMO someone without that knowledge would be at a loss to comment intelligently on this post.
Seerow 12-09-06, 06:18 PM	You just made the Barbarian from one of the best-designed classes as far as when to get out into the best 1-level dip class imaginable. I imagine things like Keen, Wounding, etc, any sort of magical weapon effect that can be explained as some product of skill would be fine for this variant, so long as you don't have something like flaming. In that case, the drawback barely affects the Barbarian at all. You take a level into Barbarian to gain doubled stat bonuses in -everything- physical, then go for 4 levels in Fighter or whatever else, then prestige away with your super-stats.
Ghenesh 12-09-06, 06:18 PM	Can you explain me this: Improved Ability Bonuses (Ex): A barbarian doubles the bonuses from their Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores. The barbarian must be wearing padded, leather or hide armor to have the doubling of the bonus from their Dexterity score applied to their Armor Class. Cause if it is how i think it is... this the best 1 level dip class ever.
Manyfist 12-09-06, 06:20 PM	I like the Rage, and your "Fixes" make the Barbarian overpowered. Barbarians are Beserkers basically, they take it hard for several sec then after the fight they become a bit more normal. Rage fits a Barbarian more than this stuff. Also WHY would a Barb Heal? OR HIDE for that manner? Thats really Un Barbaric like. Why would you HEAL and HIDE when your job is to hurt the enemy more than you get hurt?:confused:
Seerow 12-09-06, 06:21 PM	Cause if it is how i think it is... this the best 1 level dip class ever. It's exactly what you think it is. An 18 strength warrior takes a level in this class, and is henceforth treated in all ways as if he has 26 strength. His 14 dex becomes an 18. His 16 con becomes a 22. Then he goes on to a class with actual class features, rather than a silly bonus to will saves and uncanny dodge.
Salla 12-09-06, 06:23 PM	If you want to play a barbaric character who doesn't rage, just make a character of a different class and have him/her act barbaric. You don't have to be a Barbarian to be a barbarian.
Ghenesh 12-09-06, 06:30 PM	I just read the part that they lose the Improved Ability Bonus when they Multiclass. Well that changes everything. Disdain Magic is quite a drawback, but i think is quite well balanced with Improved Ability Bonus... on the other hand i think is wrongly implemented cause it depends too much on the starting ability stats of the character (or the point buy system used), it should be a static bonus and should improve by leveling the class.
Seerow 12-09-06, 06:33 PM	Oh, so there is a clause that prevents dipping. In that case the class is totally useless. You can't dip it, and the class does nothing useful -except- improve stats. I mean really, you improve stats, get a good Fort and Will save, and Uncanny Dodge. THat's it.
Shadowfax7 12-09-06, 06:47 PM	I see that one of you at least saw this part: Ex-Barbarians A barbarian who becomes lawful or multi-classes loses the improved ability bonuses and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits or detriments of the class (disdain magic, fast movement, illiteracy, improved uncanny dodge, powerful will and uncanny dodge). Thanx for posting, but did all of you see my comments at the end: Please feel free to comment If you have knowledge of the 1st ed. Barbarian's abilities, as comments should be made with that knowledge in mind. Some of the posters might, but I don't feel everyone that posted does. This is basically a conversion, thus the original abilities need to be used. It is not a new class. Barbarians are Beserkers basically, they take it hard for several sec then after the fight they become a bit more normal. Rage fits a Barbarian more than this stuff. Also WHY would a Barb Heal? OR HIDE for that manner? Thats really Un Barbaric like. Why would you HEAL and HIDE when your job is to hurt the enemy more than you get hurt?:confused:Only barbarians in 3rd ed. are berserkers, the original D&D barbarians were just that, barbarians. This is why you need to have knowledge of the 1st ed. Barbarian to comment on the conversion. If you want to play a barbaric character who doesn't rage, just make a character of a different class and have him/her act barbaric. You don't have to be a Barbarian to be a barbarian.In that case the class is totally useless. You can't dip it, and the class does nothing useful -except- improve stats. I mean really, you improve stats, get a good Fort and Will save, and Uncanny Dodge. THat's it. Again both of you missed the fact that this is a conversion . . . Disdain Magic is quite a drawback, but i think is quite well balanced with Improved Ability Bonus... on the other hand i think is wrongly implemented cause it depends too much on the starting ability stats of the character (or the point buy system used), it should be a static bonus and should improve by leveling the class.This is a fair suggestion. However, improving ability scores is already implemented in the system.
Seerow 12-09-06, 06:52 PM	I honestly don't care what it's a conversion of, so much as you made a class that's either horribly broken or completely useless, depending on how it's used. (For example, give a Fire Giant a Barbarian level, that's worth way more than its CR would indicate to him, giving him a +20 strength bonus, or the equivalent of 50 strength)
theotherdraxen 12-09-06, 08:06 PM	Look, this is just my opinion, and I don't mean any offense, but trying to ressurect something from 1st ed. is like trying to adapt chimpanzees for office work.
Greg K 12-09-06, 10:01 PM	I like the Rage, and your "Fixes" make the Barbarian overpowered. Barbarians are Beserkers basically, they take it hard for several sec then after the fight they become a bit more normal. Rage fits a Barbarian more than this stuff. That is *your* opinion of Barbarian . Not everyone agrees that making the designeres did a good thing by making the Barbarian a berserker in 3e. Some people prefer the 1e idea that the Barbarian is a tough non magical wilderness warrior from a less technological advanced society. Also WHY would a Barb Heal? OR HIDE for that manner? Thats really Un Barbaric like. Why would you HEAL and HIDE when your job is to hurt the enemy more than you get hurt?:confused: The healing would be from knowing how to use the local herbs to heal and suture ones own wounds which is not uncommon of tribal warriors in movies and novels. Hiding would be knowing camouflage useful when hunting, ambushing prey, remaining unseen when scouting.
Manyfist 12-09-06, 10:15 PM	That is *your* opinion of Barbarian . Not everyone agrees that making the designeres did a good thing by making the Barbarian a berserker in 3e. Some people prefer the 1e idea that the Barbarian is a tough non magical wilderness warrior from a less technological advanced society. Rage isn't magical. Nothing is magical about the Barb. in 3e. 1e is out dated, if you want 1e flavor I suggest you do the Whirling Barbarian from UA. Get an Extra attack and +str. Why pick a fighter (besides the feats) when this Barb. out does him in every thing possible? Belt of Giant Str, 18 Str + 6 = 24 X 2 = 48 Str. Thats at... 9th level. Its a GOOD thing theres something called balance in 3e. The healing would be from knowing how to use the local herbs to heal and suture ones own wounds which is not uncommon of tribal warriors in movies and novels. Hiding would be knowing camouflage useful when hunting, ambushing prey, remaining unseen when scouting. Barbarian, savage, brute... all define the same thing. Healing... and stealth tatics... bad. Especially with your high str, dex, and con... whats next going for regression of entire D&D classes back to 1e? Then here you go: Fighter = Fighter Thief = Rogue Priest = Cleric Mage = Wizard 3e added more flavor to the Barbarian. This Barbarian... man... double str, dex, and con? :nonono: Whats stopping the Barb from destorying everything? If you want 1e "flavor" just RP your Barbarian towards that 1e flavor. Mechanics the same, skills the same, just you want to be a Cheiftan instead of a Warrior. :nonono:
Greg K 12-09-06, 10:25 PM	Shadowfax7. I understand the desire for a non-raging barbarian. However, I think that you left in the worst parts (i.e., anti-magic, double stat bonuses) and left out the best part (i.e., tailoring weapons and skills by culture/terrain) Have you seen the current Unearthed Arcana? First, there is a nonraging variant for the Barbarian called the hunter which gives up rage in exchange for the rangers archery combat style and favored enemy. Second, there is an option called weapon groups which does away with classes knowing all martial weapons- there is one option for class weapons (e.g. druid or monk weapons) and also a suggestion for cultural weapons (a specific set of weapons someone would know from growing up in a particular environment). The Cultural weapon groups is perfect for the terrain/culture weapons of the 1e barbarian. Third, there is a favored environment variant for the rangers favored enemy. Combining these options would create something close to the 1e barbarian in flavor. Using weapon groups, you could assign weapons based on both the standard barbarian weapons and the bonus culture/terrain weapons given in 1e. Furthermore, while the 1e Barbarian did not have a combat style, you make the combat style an outgrowth of the cultural weapons. For cultures that do not emphasize archery, replace the archery style with the ranger's two-weapon style or create another combat style (e.g., mounted archery or mounted combat) based upon the culture/terain Finally, terrain/culture was a way to differentiate the home environment of a 1e Barbarian. Simply, replace the favored enemy with favored terrain (Unearthed Arcana).
Greg K 12-09-06, 10:45 PM	Rage isn't magical. Nothing is magical about the Barb. in 3e. True. It is not magical. Its just lame as a mandatory feature. 1e is out dated, if you want 1e flavor I suggest you do the Whirling Barbarian from UA. Get an Extra attack and +str. Why pick a fighter (besides the feats) when this Barb. out does him in every thing possible? Belt of Giant Str, 18 Str + 6 = 24 X 2 = 48 Str. Thats at... 9th level. I agree the doubling of bonuses is bad. See my post to shadowfax7. I wrote that Doubling is bad as was the anti magic thing. However, in my response to you, I never addressed the issue of the doubled bonuses. I answered specific questions. Why heal? Why hide? and gave an answer for doing non-rage. Its a GOOD thing theres something called balance in 3e. I agree. However, making the barbarian a rager was not a good thing, imo of course. Barbarian, savage, brute... all define the same thing. Healing... and stealth tatics... bad. Healing and stealth are not bad. Doubling bonuses is! Especially with your high str, dex, and con... whats next going for regression of entire D&D classes back to 1e? Then here you go: Fighter = Fighter Thief = Rogue Priest = Cleric Mage = Wizard Nope. would never go back to previous editions. However, that doesn't mean that there were not some good ideas within them that could be adapted. In the case of the 1e barbarian it was the idea that culture/ home terrain played a role in customizing the barbarians weapons and skills. 3e added more flavor to the Barbarian. No it didn't. Like Shadowfax7 version, it left out what was, imo, the real flavor of the 1e Barbarian as did 3.x. Terrain/Culture variants to represent barbarians growing up in differing environments. However, this is easily done using Unearthed Arcana- hunter variant (replace archery with appropriate combat style as appropriate), cultural weapon groups and favored terrain.
Nephlite 12-09-06, 11:12 PM	Disdain Magic:A barbarian disdains the use of magic by himself or others around him. He will not use any item which is obviously magical (such as anything causing "flashy" magic) and will attempt to make others not use such magic or even destroy such magic. How he goes about this depends on his mood or even alignment. Why just come out and say: Note: This means no weapon or armor/shield abilities, just bonus to hit/damage possible. Or if you mean no magic at all, give him around 4th level, the ability to bypass magic DR. Improved Ability Bonuses (Ex): A barbarian doubles the bonuses from their Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores. The barbarian must be wearing padded, leather or hide armor to have the doubling of the bonus from their Dexterity score applied to their Armor Class. Too stagnant. 1st levl, w00t, than nothing.... I'd redo it. +2 Str/Con/Dex at level 1 and than every 3 levels. This means it ends at +8 Str/Con/Dex At level 18. Same bonus as Rage (well plus Dex) but always on. Since it increases by level it increases in Epic too (since he doesn't use magic items like Tombs, this is absolutely neccessary). Now one has a Reason to stick to Barbarian. Your way was forcing them with little reward after 1st. This variant barbarian disdains magic, as the 1st ed. Barbarian did, but instead of not being able to use most magic, he can use non-flashy (DM's call) type magic. This would include such things as a +1 to +5 weapon, armor or shield without any flashy magical abilities which the barbarian would think are "magical", rather than just good weapons, armor or shields. By doing it this way, it takes away the need to convert two other abilities the 1st ed. Barbarian had, which were detect magic (to sense magic and either not use it or destroy it) and the ability to strike creatures which require a magic weapon to strike (since he couldn't/wouldn't use a magic weapon). Why not KISS? Keep It Simple Silly: Forbid weapon/other abilities (state it) but allow weapon bonuses (+1 to +5) or No magic items but add back in: Add back in magic strike (ability to bypass DR/Magic).
Shadowfax7 12-09-06, 11:54 PM	Belt of Giant Str, 18 Str + 6 = 24 X 2 = 48 Str. Thats at... 9th level. This was an oversight in the wording of the ability. There should be a restriction that the improved ability bonuses only apply to your actual ability scores. left out the best part (i.e., tailoring weapons and skills by culture/terrain)I Didn't leave them out, all those things can be accomplished by the skills, feats and weapon choices of the PC. I could put restrictions based on the native region the barbarian is from . . . Why not KISS? Keep It Simple Silly: Forbid weapon/other abilities (state it) but allow weapon bonuses (+1 to +5) or No magic items but add back in: Add back in magic strike (ability to bypass DR/Magic). I actually think that the way it was stated was KISS. It leaves it up to the DM's discretion. However, I can fix that or go with the ability to bypass DR/magic at 4th level.
OneWinged4ngel 12-09-06, 11:57 PM	Horribly done. Powerful will means you have a good will save against mind affecting stuff... but not even the benefit of a real Good will save. You really get TWO abilities past level 1. Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Seriously, it's craptastical. Two thumbs way down.
MadApe19 12-10-06, 01:20 AM	I very much like the attempt you're making here. I've never seen the 1e barbarian, but I definitely don't think the class should be the same thing as a berserker. I always envisioned the Barbarian and the Ranger to be really similar, maybe even just one class, and what you're doing here kind of reminds me of that. I always kind of figured that someone who flipped out and gained some power doing it fit a PrC better. However, I do agree with most other people that there are some serious balance problems with the class as it stands. I don't really need to repeat what's been said, but it's there. Tweak or eliminate the ability bonuses and get rid of the antimagic (maybe just limit it kind of like the Kensai or Wizard Slayer in the Baldur's Gate kits). That'll give you a sweet class with a feel that'll definitely be closer to what you're looking for. EDIT: That reminds me... I could swear I saw a copy of the Player's Handbook once whose Barbarian class featured a limited weapon proficiency. Anyone else ever see this, or was I dreaming?
Greg K 12-10-06, 01:45 AM	EDIT: That reminds me... I could swear I saw a copy of the Player's Handbook once whose Barbarian class featured a limited weapon proficiency. Anyone else ever see this, or was I dreaming? In the 1e Unearthed Arcana, the barbarian was proficient in dagger/knife, handaxe, spear and a few specific additional weapons that were specific to their culture/terrain (e.g. Amedio Jungle)
theotherdraxen 12-10-06, 01:51 AM	I always kind of figured that someone who flipped out and gained some power doing it fit a PrC better. PrCs are, IMO, for being slightly better than a straight core class, but more specialized. Rage is pretty straight-forward, and applies pretty much as long as you're in combat.
mkill 12-10-06, 08:07 AM	Disdain Magic:A barbarian disdains the use of magic by himself or others around him. He will not use any item which is obviously magical (such as anything causing "flashy" magic) and will attempt to make others not use such magic or even destroy such magic. How he goes about this depends on his mood or even alignment. I don't get the point of this feature. I understand that it's in 1st edition, but honestly, it's better left there. For one thing, it is impossible to balance, as the amount of magic equipment varies from level to level and campaign to campaign. For a low-level barbarian with a stingy DM, this makes no difference, as magic items won't be available anyway or very limited. In a high-level campaign with a generous DM, this is crippling. Second, the way it is worded can lead to endless discussion. DM: "No, your char can't use that axe." Player: "But it's shiny! And Grog loves the burning axe blade! It strikes fear in the heart of his enemies!" DM: "But it's magical. It says here in the class description that yout character does not like magic." Player: "So what! Grog has a -3 in Spellcraft... he'd never realize that anyway... How does he tell the difference between a torch and a flaming sword???" DM: "And that dagger..." Player: "What about it?" DM: "It glows..." Player: "It doesn't. It says nowhere that +1 magic weapons glow" DM: "This one does!" Player: "Nah, you're just being unfair!!!" Third... "real world" "savages" use magic all the time. Can you imagine a stereotypical Native American without amulets from the shaman? Or what about African bushmen? Since they found out how practical a "magic item" like the trusted Kalashnikov is, you'd hardly find one without one... There is absolutely no reason from a roleplaying point of view why barbarians shouldn't use magic.
Witch 12-10-06, 08:17 AM	Try this for a less rage-focused barbarian that is less overpowered: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4363
holylink718 12-10-06, 08:41 AM	Rage isn't magical. Nothing is magical about the Barb. in 3e. 1e is out dated, if you want 1e flavor I suggest you do the Whirling Barbarian from UA. Get an Extra attack and +str. Why pick a fighter (besides the feats) when this Barb. out does him in every thing possible? Belt of Giant Str, 18 Str + 6 = 24 X 2 = 48 Str. Thats at... 9th level. Its a GOOD thing theres something called balance in 3e. Too bad you don't actually read the entire post! There are two flaws in your arguement. First of all, the Barbarian's ability bonus to Str (or Dex or Con) would not apply after the Belt of Giant Strength. The ability would increase due to the Barbarian's ability increase first, then the Belt would increase from there. Second, the ability doesn't double the score, just the bonus to said score. So, if said Barbarian with an 18 Str (with the ability increase because of the Barbarian class) found a Belt of Giant Strength +6, he would have a Str of 32, not 48. (18[original] + 8[doubled the bonus of his Str] = 26 +6[said Belt of Giant Strength] = 32[grand total]) That's a lot different (and more balanced) than a 48 Str. Seems pretty fair considering that they can't use flashy magic stuff. :)
Manyfist 12-10-06, 09:16 AM	Try this for a less rage-focused barbarian that is less overpowered: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4363 Dicefreaks always does things right ;) - This what a 1e Barb in 3e should look like (dicefreaks). This is way overpowered, and 32 str is still over doing it. Since he still can use +1 weapons..etc. they just don't have to be shiney.
Shadowfax7 12-10-06, 09:40 AM	In the 1e Unearthed Arcana, the barbarian was proficient in dagger/knife, handaxe, spear and a few specific additional weapons that were specific to their culture/terrain (e.g. Amedio Jungle)I considered just giving this conversion Simple Weapon Proficiency and a few Martial Weapon Proficiencies dependent on their native region. For one thing, it is impossible to balance, as the amount of magic equipment varies from level to level and campaign to campaign. For a low-level barbarian with a stingy DM, this makes no difference, as magic items won't be available anyway or very limited. In a high-level campaign with a generous DM, this is crippling. Disdain Magic can be reworded to appease rules lawyers and was sugested earlier on in the thread. It is a flavor thing, not solely a penalty. This was a conversion, not really the creation of a playable class. I appreciate the comments from posters who actually read the whole class and contributed to the thread as opposed to those posters that were rude and contributed nothing. Try this for a less rage-focused barbarian that is less overpowered: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4363I checked this class out through your link . . . this is what I saw: 1) +20 to an ability score at 20th level, +30 at epic 30th level. 2) SR of 21-25 at 20 level, 31-35+ at epic 30th level. 3) +20 to melee damage rolls, +30 at epic 30th level, in addition to Str bonus (of which Str could have the +20 ability bonus applied to it). 4) +10 natural armor bonus at 20th level in addition to armor bonus (up to +8 in full plate by using a bonus feat for Heavy Armor proficiency) and Dex bonus (of which Dex could have the +20 ability bonus applied to it). 5) as many bonus feats as a Fighter gets !!! Are you telling me this isn't way overpowered ?? If you are, you gotta be kidding me Witch. Take a look at it again. So much room for abuse. Anyway, I don't want to discuss that class in this thread.
Witch 12-10-06, 09:47 AM	As a matter of fact - no, I don't think it's overpowered. It has to make will saves to be healed, it can't use any magical enhancement bonuses, and several other things. If you're using Full Plate, there's no Dex bonus, so that argument is void. SR of 21-25 at 20th level is overcome by a level 20 caster upon rolling a ... 1-5. This class would break if you would apply Vow of Poverty to it - but let's be fair: no DM would allow that. On itself, the class is rather balanced. Most people will spread out the ability increases due to the fact that you don't have a way of increasing your other abilities in any other way (no magic items or spells). Bonuses also scale with level, as to make dipping less attractive. Your class would be a nobrainer for anyone relying on physical attributes. Aside from that, there's no rules-reason so far why magical enhancements would not count towards being doubled. Aside from that, I dislike your non-mechanical way of "disliking flashy magic". What is flashy magic? Why does he only dislike flashy magic, and not all magic? Does he not like pretty colors?
Treantmonklvl20 12-10-06, 10:32 AM	I am converting the 1st ed. AD&D Barbarian to 3.5 D&D. My favorite version of the barbarian class has always been the 1st ed. version, which wasn't a raging or berserking barbarian, but simply a barbaric barbarian. Some people playing 1st ed. were of the opinion that the Barbarian was overpowered, I am of the opinion it was workable . . . with some work. Overall the classes in 3rd ed. are more powerful than previous editions. My goal is to keep the flavor and abilities of the 1st ed. Barbarian in the conversion: The first ed Barbarian was overpowered, as it came out in the Unearthed Arcana where 1st ed was broken. We houseruled the whole book as not allowed. You are right about 3rd ed classes being more powerful, however, stat bonuses increase MUCH more quickly in 3rd ed. Doubling those bonuses is MUCH different than doubling 1st ed bonuses. (For those who didn't play earlier ed. 14's in Dex, Con or Str gave no bonus at all. 15 str also gave no bonus.) The 1st ed Barbarian had 2 disadvantages. 1) XP was about triple that of a fighter, this isn't easy to duplicate in 3rd ed. 2) The restriction of magic item use - which you've touched on, but would need some serious develpment here. If I remember right, Barbarians were required to destroy magic items (at a certain level) - that doesn't seem included here at all.
Khan the Destroyer 12-10-06, 11:13 AM	If I remember correctly, the term 'barbarian' simply means bearded man, and refers to a group of people considered to be uncivilized by presumably civilized people. But since every culture exists in some sort of civilization, the term really doesn't apply. Barbarians are not nessecarily savages or brutes. Living off the land might indeed give them knowledge in the Heal skill, and they certainly didn't stroll up to their prey when hunting, so the Hide skill might also be appropriate. Besides, being brutal in combat does not mean you are without tactics or patience. No, rage is kind of a silly idea. A ranger or fighter could be just as ticked off to recieve bonuses like a barbarian. Heck, I would believe a Paladin Rage before I believed a barbarian rage. At least the paladin has a divine source to boost his strength, constitution, and will beyond normal levels. I started playing in 3rd edition, so I don't have anything to contribute to the conversion here. I apologize for that. I just felt like supporting the idea that barbarians don't have to be mindless savages that rip everything to shreds.
Witch 12-10-06, 11:17 AM	Your definition comes close, but not completely correct ;) The word "Barbarian" comes into English from Medieval Latin barbarinus, from Latin barbaria, from Latin barbarus, from the ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (barbaros) which meant a non-Greek, someone whose (first) language was not Greek.
Khan the Destroyer 12-10-06, 11:42 AM	Wow, the one I suggested is way off. And I read that definition of barbarian on these very boards... Hmm... who to trust?
Witch 12-10-06, 11:44 AM	I'd say mine, as I know it from books, Wikipedia and school. Wikipedia just because I'm bad at wording definitions, so I looked it up again for ease.
Reversefigure4 12-10-06, 03:43 PM	Disdain Magic:A barbarian disdains the use of magic by himself or others around him. He will not use any item which is obviously magical (such as anything causing "flashy" magic) and will attempt to make others not use such magic or even destroy such magic. How he goes about this depends on his mood or even alignment. This just reeks of party destruction to me. Similar to the Paladin's code, but far worse, this one actually restricts what other people in the party can do, which is a big no-no. "How is goes about this depends on his mood and alignment" is so open to interpretation it's ridiculous. Suppose I take this to mean "must destroy flashy magical items the party has, for their own good". Now when the Rogue pulls out that Wand of Fireball, I have to sunder it as he tries to use it. That should make me a welcome addition to the group. And yet, apparently this barb is cool with having wizards in the party, if I'm reading that right. He has to destroy any magical item, but he's quite happy about the guy who can create magic out of thin air.
Jaxgaret 12-10-06, 04:48 PM	Are monster PCs allowed to take this class? I'd love to play a Stonechild Converted Barbarian. Mmm... 42 base Strength... A Troll or even a Sand Giant would be even more ridiculous. But Stonechildren are relatively playable in your normal campaign.
BinaryProphet 12-11-06, 01:52 AM	I'm not terribly familiar with the 1st edition barbarian, but I do like the idea far more than the current berserker. Anyway, I suspect that if you really do want to use the class, making the ability bonus progress as the character levels would help prevent him from being overpowered at the start and would supplant the rage ability nicely if you made it come to only about a +4 or +5 by level 20 (+1 at first level and +1 at every fifth level after that). Then again, you could probably get away with an almost full progression of increases if you limited their armor to non-magic, and only up to, say, hide and limiting the weapon selection to a few types. Oh, and shields to only wooden ones. As for magic items, I'd probably use the standpoint that the barbarian may never use magic or magic items other than weapons. (Magic weapons are simply a necessity to even hit some enemies.) He will generally avoid spellcasters that he does not know and that have not proven themselves worthy of his friendship and he will never allow a spell to be cast on him other than by a shaman or healer. Other than that, I'd leave the rest of the base barbarian stuff intact and then add the few class skills you listed above. I don't know, that's just me.
OologahQ 12-11-06, 02:02 AM	I don't know anything about the 1e barbarian, but I think this class is really cool. I think the Forsaker class from the 3.0 supplement Masters of the Wild may have been a throwback to the 1e barbarian as you describe it.
Shadowfax7 12-11-06, 10:09 AM	I think the Forsaker class from the 3.0 supplement Masters of the Wild may have been a throwback to the 1e barbarian as you describe it.I will have to take a look at this class again, I don't remember it.
Jaxgaret 12-11-06, 11:27 AM	I don't know anything about the 1e barbarian, but I think this class is really cool. I think the Forsaker class from the 3.0 supplement Masters of the Wild may have been a throwback to the 1e barbarian as you describe it. I will have to take a look at this class again, I don't remember it. You know, I should have mentioned that. When I first read your class, I was thinking about making a humorous sarcastic comment along the lines of "Or you could just play a Forsaker". But I didn't want it to sound nasty, it is hard to convey tone in text sometimes :D The Forsaker is actually very similar to what you've posted here, you'll probably like it a lot! Sometimes I forget that not everyone here played 3.0, some people went right from 1e or 2e to 3.5.
travellersside 12-11-06, 11:52 AM	Forsaker: Combat class. Gain stats as you level. Get SR. Limited Fast Healing (X pts/day). Various other things. Cannot voluntarily use or benefit from any magic. Must destroy magic items each day or else lose powers temporarily. Value of destroyed item rises as your levels do. It was a very poor class for most campaigns - kind of like the Vow of Poverty, but not as good (and VoP becomes a serious liability once you're at double-digit levels) Oh, and didn't "Barbarian" come from the "ba-ba-ba" noises that uncivilised savages made in place of a proper language ;)
OologahQ 12-11-06, 06:41 PM	Barbarian originally meant any non-Greek. Because the Greeks thought everything they said sounded like bar bar bar bar.
Jaxgaret 12-11-06, 08:33 PM	Forsaker: It was a very poor class for most campaigns - kind of like the Vow of Poverty, but not as good (and VoP becomes a serious liability once you're at double-digit levels) You can have a Forsaker with a Vow of Poverty (actually, it's pretty much a no-brainer to combine the two, considering the class' and the feat's overlapping restrictions). The only downside is the loss of Damage Reduction from the Forsaker class, but that's all you lose if you don't sacrifice magical items on a regular basis. One of my favorite PCs is a Feral Minotaur Forsaker with a Vow of Poverty. He has the longest backstory of any character I ever had before or since...
Manyfist 12-11-06, 09:11 PM	You can have a Forsaker with a Vow of Poverty (actually, it's pretty much a no-brainer to combine the two, considering the class' and the feat's overlapping restrictions). The only downside is the loss of Damage Reduction from the Forsaker class, but that's all you lose if you don't sacrifice magical items on a regular basis. One of my favorite PCs is a Feral Minotaur Forsaker with a Vow of Poverty. He has the longest backstory of any character I ever had before or since... Meh, you have Fast Healing, so what you loose some the dmg reduction from Forsaker you have Fast Healing and Dmg reduction with VOP. :D
Daeva 12-13-06, 02:58 AM	just want to point out theres a big difference between raging and berserking a real life rage is just getting really really really ****** off, you still maintain a consciousness about a year and a half ago i was mugged by some cocky highs schoolers and im gonna call what i did enraging, if i cop came by i woulda been able to stop, and i wouldnt of kicked my girlfriend in the face. thas what a barbarian does channel his anger into power, not channelhis anger into psychopathness. berserking is more like the frenzy ability. and historically bear skinners were either people abused all their lives or given psychoactive drugs, cut off a couple days before a fight, then overdosed before a battle then pointed in the general direction.