1st lvl brb with POUNCE. [Archive] - Wizards Community

1st lvl brb with POUNCE. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kadeity
06-10-07, 04:09 AM Lion totem, page 6 of complete champion.

you lose fast movement...
and now you can pounce.

JEEZUZ.
Dead_Weasel
06-10-07, 04:19 AM Personally, I would just bite the LA for a catfolk, keep the fast movement, and start pouncing on things from 100' away at level 2 with Catfolk Pounce. Although it is worth noting that even a little LA is hurtful in the long run.

Oh, and the Lion Totem option is on page 46.
zeratulcraft
06-10-07, 04:21 AM Served.
OneWinged4ngel
06-10-07, 05:50 AM Yes, it's criminal. Now Barbarian is a rather crazy dip.
runestar
06-10-07, 06:44 AM What requirements does this have?
I am already fantasizing about dragons splashing 1 lv of barb...:P
Garonak
06-10-07, 07:02 AM You have to be a lvl 1 barbarian that likes/fears/worship/knows about lions...
runestar
06-10-07, 09:58 AM A dragon that respects lions...:dragon:
IRememberCecil
06-10-07, 11:50 AM A dragon that respects lions...:dragon:
A dragon that fears lions. Those lions would be pretty crazy.
Tempest Stormwind
06-10-07, 02:27 PM So what? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146&postcount=29)

It's already doable.

Complete Champion just makes it slightly easier. And it scales with level somewhat -- but by the time you've hit level 6, other options are available.

And that list, by the way, is horribly out of date.

(Most of that list is actually preferrable to the barbarian level for things like dragons, by the way.)
OneWinged4ngel
06-10-07, 02:47 PM So what? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146&postcount=29)

It's already doable.

Complete Champion just makes it slightly easier. And it scales with level somewhat -- but by the time you've hit level 6, other options are available.

And that list, by the way, is horribly out of date.

(Most of that list is actually preferrable to the barbarian level for things like dragons, by the way.)

It's *extremely* easy now. Grab your Whirling Frenzy and your Pounce, and your full BAB for the level and a d12 and 4 skill points, and you suddenly have a killer 1 level dip. The really sad thing is that it's not actually that good for people taking straight barbarian, because the normal Barb doesn't even USE pounce at level 1. It would make much more sense as a higher level ability.
Tempest Stormwind
06-10-07, 02:56 PM It's *extremely* easy now. Grab your Whirling Frenzy and your Pounce, and your full BAB for the level and a d12 and 4 skill points, and you suddenly have a killer 1 level dip. The really sad thing is that it's not actually that good for people taking straight barbarian, because the normal Barb doesn't even USE pounce at level 1. It would make much more sense as a higher level ability.I'm not denying it's good, and that it transforms barbarian into a killer dip. It's just not the OMFGAWESOME thing that people think it is, because other options already existed for doing just this (pounce as a 1st level barbarian or as a higher-level character).

Short of Whirling Frenzy, the only way to benefit from Pounce at level 1 is to use two weapons. The techniques I mentioned up there (Lion Tribe Warrior, Snow Tiger Berserker) are designed to work with light weapons -- which you use in TWF mode. By the time level 6 shows up... you've got access to the other pounce techniques.

Whirling Frenzy's still the best option at level 1 since it works with two-handers, which benefit the most from your boosted Strength and your inevitable Power Attack feat.
fatal error
06-10-07, 02:58 PM The really sad thing is that it's not actually that good for people taking straight barbarian, because the normal Barb doesn't even USE pounce at level 1. It would make much more sense as a higher level ability.

Indeed, it definitely seems like something that should come as a Level 6 ability. You know, like, when they actually get a benefit from it.

And I agree that it is made much easier to get than before. Looking at that list, almost all of them required a spellcasting class (even Psychic Warrior) of some sort to get. The ones that didn't were mostly restricted to Light weapons, which certainly puts a damper on Power Attacking Chargers. The only two that don't require either of those (or something like being a Shifter, or being Exalted) being the Catfolk, with LA, and the Sigh Rager.

Indeed, I believe one level dip into Barbarian may well become standard process for fighter types. Of course, since the Fighter is only good for 2-4 levels, and you're only taking 1 of Barbarian, and Paladin is only acceptable up to 5, I'm not sure where you're putting the rest of those levels, but that's beside the point. Right?
OneWinged4ngel
06-10-07, 05:44 PM Indeed, it definitely seems like something that should come as a Level 6 ability. You know, like, when they actually get a benefit from it.

And I agree that it is made much easier to get than before. Looking at that list, almost all of them required a spellcasting class (even Psychic Warrior) of some sort to get. The ones that didn't were mostly restricted to Light weapons, which certainly puts a damper on Power Attacking Chargers. The only two that don't require either of those (or something like being a Shifter, or being Exalted) being the Catfolk, with LA, and the Sigh Rager.

Indeed, I believe one level dip into Barbarian may well become standard process for fighter types. Of course, since the Fighter is only good for 2-4 levels, and you're only taking 1 of Barbarian, and Paladin is only acceptable up to 5, I'm not sure where you're putting the rest of those levels, but that's beside the point. Right?

And of course, when you're talking about the Psychic Warrior, he's getting less than unlimited usage per day.

But yeah, now all those builds like Fighter/Barb/Revenant Blade/Dervish are going to end in 9-attack power-charging Frenzied Berserkers instead of Dervish. Because 2000 damage just isn't enough! X_X

(Seriously though, that's just overkill and not really practical.)
kadeity
06-11-07, 04:14 AM its more than just good.

most of the ways to get pounce before Were horrible for builds.
Now a Swift Hunter-GreaterManyshotting SplittingBowSkirmisher can crap 32 (1d8 bow + 5d6 skirmish + 2d6 improved skirmish) arrows that dont give a crap if your immune to crits or not. two arrows each at up to 16 targets too.

all because of pounce being available at 1st.
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-11-07, 06:27 AM As if barb wasn't front-loaded enough...

Good job WotC.
Derren S.
06-11-07, 08:53 AM Vote now.

Mistake or intentional power creep?
runestar
06-11-07, 08:55 AM Vote now.

Mistake or intentional power creep?
The latter. They obviously needed some incentives to get people to buy their new book...:D
AllisterH
06-11-07, 10:26 AM *BLINKS*

You know, I didn't even realize it but you're right. Pounce makes more sense higher on the level chain since a barbarian doesn't get multiple attacks until level 6.

It probably should in fact be situated at level 11 where it replaces Damage reduction since at lower levels, the multiple attacks will probably miss anyway....

I mean, seriously, doesn't it make more sense to trade
Damage reduction with damage increase rather than speed for damage increase as a balancing feature?
Tempest Stormwind
06-11-07, 10:33 AM It's Complete Champion, a book on Divine Magic. The last time this happened, we got Divine Metamagic.

It also has a boatload of other things in it, like "trade any of your wizard bonus feats for the ability to spontaneously cast any divination spell" (note: not "any divination spell that you know" or "any wizard divination spell", but "any divination spell").

Anything to do with divine magic is intentional power creep by definition from the very beginning.
Minmaximus
06-11-07, 12:09 PM Seriously, why does everyone dump on any kind of powerful class or ability. The under/over powered posts are out of control. I think it is cool. Until 3rd ed, there was no such thing as a standard or full attack. Your fighter just ran on up, and dropped his 3 every 2 whenever he felt like it. My players b****ed up a storm when they heard they couldn't do that. But the point is, it was not broken back then, and needed to come back. With all the power creep, (intentional by the way) warriors needed something. And this is a subtle, but long overdue fix.
Gnarl
06-11-07, 01:21 PM The latter. They obviously needed some incentives to get people to buy their new book...:D

That was a good idea because I found the book flavorless and crap.
OneWinged4ngel
06-11-07, 02:15 PM That was a good idea because I found the book flavorless and crap.

It seems like most of the books coming out are nowadays... :(

Well, at least they have a *few* good books out there amongst the dozens. Magic Item Compendium, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Tome of Battle still make me happy :)
IRememberCecil
06-11-07, 02:46 PM It seems like most of the books coming out are nowadays... :(

Well, at least they have a *few* good books out there amongst the dozens. Magic Item Compendium, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Tome of Battle still make me happy :)
I think I'm the ideal WotC customer. I work like a dog and have a little more money between my hands than my peers do, and I'm incredibly easily impressed and generally prone to focusing on the positive qualities of things (in short, the idiocy I'm capable of is boundless).

I love my whole D&D collection (which doesn't include Complete Psionic, though). Even the BoXD (which I consider royally crappy in many ways) see some (heavily modified) use in my games.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kadeity 06-10-07, 04:09 AM	Lion totem, page 6 of complete champion. you lose fast movement... and now you can pounce. JEEZUZ.
Dead_Weasel 06-10-07, 04:19 AM	Personally, I would just bite the LA for a catfolk, keep the fast movement, and start pouncing on things from 100' away at level 2 with Catfolk Pounce. Although it is worth noting that even a little LA is hurtful in the long run. Oh, and the Lion Totem option is on page 46.
zeratulcraft 06-10-07, 04:21 AM	Served.
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 05:50 AM	Yes, it's criminal. Now Barbarian is a rather crazy dip.
runestar 06-10-07, 06:44 AM	What requirements does this have? I am already fantasizing about dragons splashing 1 lv of barb...:P
Garonak 06-10-07, 07:02 AM	You have to be a lvl 1 barbarian that likes/fears/worship/knows about lions...
runestar 06-10-07, 09:58 AM	A dragon that respects lions...:dragon:
IRememberCecil 06-10-07, 11:50 AM	A dragon that respects lions...:dragon: A dragon that fears lions. Those lions would be pretty crazy.
Tempest Stormwind 06-10-07, 02:27 PM	So what? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146&postcount=29) It's already doable. Complete Champion just makes it slightly easier. And it scales with level somewhat -- but by the time you've hit level 6, other options are available. And that list, by the way, is horribly out of date. (Most of that list is actually preferrable to the barbarian level for things like dragons, by the way.)
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 02:47 PM	So what? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5305146&postcount=29) It's already doable. Complete Champion just makes it slightly easier. And it scales with level somewhat -- but by the time you've hit level 6, other options are available. And that list, by the way, is horribly out of date. (Most of that list is actually preferrable to the barbarian level for things like dragons, by the way.) It's extremely easy now. Grab your Whirling Frenzy and your Pounce, and your full BAB for the level and a d12 and 4 skill points, and you suddenly have a killer 1 level dip. The really sad thing is that it's not actually that good for people taking straight barbarian, because the normal Barb doesn't even USE pounce at level 1. It would make much more sense as a higher level ability.
Tempest Stormwind 06-10-07, 02:56 PM	It's extremely easy now. Grab your Whirling Frenzy and your Pounce, and your full BAB for the level and a d12 and 4 skill points, and you suddenly have a killer 1 level dip. The really sad thing is that it's not actually that good for people taking straight barbarian, because the normal Barb doesn't even USE pounce at level 1. It would make much more sense as a higher level ability.I'm not denying it's good, and that it transforms barbarian into a killer dip. It's just not the OMFGAWESOME thing that people think it is, because other options already existed for doing just this (pounce as a 1st level barbarian or as a higher-level character). Short of Whirling Frenzy, the only way to benefit from Pounce at level 1 is to use two weapons. The techniques I mentioned up there (Lion Tribe Warrior, Snow Tiger Berserker) are designed to work with light weapons -- which you use in TWF mode. By the time level 6 shows up... you've got access to the other pounce techniques. Whirling Frenzy's still the best option at level 1 since it works with two-handers, which benefit the most from your boosted Strength and your inevitable Power Attack feat.
fatal error 06-10-07, 02:58 PM	The really sad thing is that it's not actually that good for people taking straight barbarian, because the normal Barb doesn't even USE pounce at level 1. It would make much more sense as a higher level ability. Indeed, it definitely seems like something that should come as a Level 6 ability. You know, like, when they actually get a benefit from it. And I agree that it is made much easier to get than before. Looking at that list, almost all of them required a spellcasting class (even Psychic Warrior) of some sort to get. The ones that didn't were mostly restricted to Light weapons, which certainly puts a damper on Power Attacking Chargers. The only two that don't require either of those (or something like being a Shifter, or being Exalted) being the Catfolk, with LA, and the Sigh Rager. Indeed, I believe one level dip into Barbarian may well become standard process for fighter types. Of course, since the Fighter is only good for 2-4 levels, and you're only taking 1 of Barbarian, and Paladin is only acceptable up to 5, I'm not sure where you're putting the rest of those levels, but that's beside the point. Right?
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 05:44 PM	Indeed, it definitely seems like something that should come as a Level 6 ability. You know, like, when they actually get a benefit from it. And I agree that it is made much easier to get than before. Looking at that list, almost all of them required a spellcasting class (even Psychic Warrior) of some sort to get. The ones that didn't were mostly restricted to Light weapons, which certainly puts a damper on Power Attacking Chargers. The only two that don't require either of those (or something like being a Shifter, or being Exalted) being the Catfolk, with LA, and the Sigh Rager. Indeed, I believe one level dip into Barbarian may well become standard process for fighter types. Of course, since the Fighter is only good for 2-4 levels, and you're only taking 1 of Barbarian, and Paladin is only acceptable up to 5, I'm not sure where you're putting the rest of those levels, but that's beside the point. Right? And of course, when you're talking about the Psychic Warrior, he's getting less than unlimited usage per day. But yeah, now all those builds like Fighter/Barb/Revenant Blade/Dervish are going to end in 9-attack power-charging Frenzied Berserkers instead of Dervish. Because 2000 damage just isn't enough! X_X (Seriously though, that's just overkill and not really practical.)
kadeity 06-11-07, 04:14 AM	its more than just good. most of the ways to get pounce before Were horrible for builds. Now a Swift Hunter-GreaterManyshotting SplittingBowSkirmisher can crap 32 (1d8 bow + 5d6 skirmish + 2d6 improved skirmish) arrows that dont give a crap if your immune to crits or not. two arrows each at up to 16 targets too. all because of pounce being available at 1st.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-11-07, 06:27 AM	As if barb wasn't front-loaded enough... Good job WotC.
Derren S. 06-11-07, 08:53 AM	Vote now. Mistake or intentional power creep?
runestar 06-11-07, 08:55 AM	Vote now. Mistake or intentional power creep? The latter. They obviously needed some incentives to get people to buy their new book...:D
AllisterH 06-11-07, 10:26 AM	BLINKS You know, I didn't even realize it but you're right. Pounce makes more sense higher on the level chain since a barbarian doesn't get multiple attacks until level 6. It probably should in fact be situated at level 11 where it replaces Damage reduction since at lower levels, the multiple attacks will probably miss anyway.... I mean, seriously, doesn't it make more sense to trade Damage reduction with damage increase rather than speed for damage increase as a balancing feature?
Tempest Stormwind 06-11-07, 10:33 AM	It's Complete Champion, a book on Divine Magic. The last time this happened, we got Divine Metamagic. It also has a boatload of other things in it, like "trade any of your wizard bonus feats for the ability to spontaneously cast any divination spell" (note: not "any divination spell that you know" or "any wizard divination spell", but "any divination spell"). Anything to do with divine magic is intentional power creep by definition from the very beginning.
Minmaximus 06-11-07, 12:09 PM	Seriously, why does everyone dump on any kind of powerful class or ability. The under/over powered posts are out of control. I think it is cool. Until 3rd ed, there was no such thing as a standard or full attack. Your fighter just ran on up, and dropped his 3 every 2 whenever he felt like it. My players b****ed up a storm when they heard they couldn't do that. But the point is, it was not broken back then, and needed to come back. With all the power creep, (intentional by the way) warriors needed something. And this is a subtle, but long overdue fix.
Gnarl 06-11-07, 01:21 PM	The latter. They obviously needed some incentives to get people to buy their new book...:D That was a good idea because I found the book flavorless and crap.
OneWinged4ngel 06-11-07, 02:15 PM	That was a good idea because I found the book flavorless and crap. It seems like most of the books coming out are nowadays... :( Well, at least they have a few good books out there amongst the dozens. Magic Item Compendium, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Tome of Battle still make me happy :)
IRememberCecil 06-11-07, 02:46 PM	It seems like most of the books coming out are nowadays... :( Well, at least they have a few good books out there amongst the dozens. Magic Item Compendium, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Tome of Battle still make me happy :) I think I'm the ideal WotC customer. I work like a dog and have a little more money between my hands than my peers do, and I'm incredibly easily impressed and generally prone to focusing on the positive qualities of things (in short, the idiocy I'm capable of is boundless). I love my whole D&D collection (which doesn't include Complete Psionic, though). Even the BoXD (which I consider royally crappy in many ways) see some (heavily modified) use in my games.