Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 12:45 AM	Hello all,it's been ages since I last entered the boards and the search tool is disabled. So these 2 questions that rose up may have already been answered some times,please excuse me if so. 1:If I use an essence invocation and a blast shape in a single blast,say a sickening blast and a chain blast,would the sickening blast affect all targets hit by the chain or not? (ignoring saves,SR and the like) 2:Eldritch blast is noted as a Spell Like ability,thus like all spell like abilities it requires a standard action to use. But it is also regarded as a ranged attack. So do I benefit from multiple attacks when I use eldritch blast or am I always limited to a single one no matter any bonus I might have from other sources? (BAB,rapid shot etc)
Tempest Stormwind 06-13-06, 01:08 AM	Hello all,it's been ages since I last entered the boards and the search tool is disabled. So these 2 questions that rose up may have already been answered some times,please excuse me if so. 1:If I use an essence invocation and a blast shape in a single blast,say a sickening blast and a chain blast,would the sickening blast affect all targets hit by the chain or not? (ignoring saves,SR and the like)Yes. (I assume by "ignoring saves, SR, and the like" you mean that it's still subject to them, but they aren't part of your question since you understood that already.) 2:Eldritch blast is noted as a Spell Like ability,thus like all spell like abilities it requires a standard action to use. But it is also regarded as a ranged attack. So do I benefit from multiple attacks when I use eldritch blast or am I always limited to a single one no matter any bonus I might have from other sources? (BAB,rapid shot etc)Always a single one, since it takes a standard action to use. A better analogy would be casting a ray spell like Ray of Frost.
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 01:10 AM	Like I thought,thanks for your reply altho the more I get the stronger my certainty would be :) (I assume by "ignoring saves, SR, and the like" you mean that it's still subject to them, but they aren't part of your question since you understood that already.) Eggzactly
Dnjscott 06-13-06, 02:42 AM	Seconded!
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 11:44 AM	Now another one for those that delved deeper into the warlock. I was currently thinking to pick up the empower spell like ability feat in order to use it in conjuction with eldritch chain invocation. The feat's description says that all numerical effects are 1+1/2 times as much,including damage caused,targets affected etc. So my question is wether this increase both affects targets (more chain jumps) and eldritch damage. For those that have no idea what I am talking about just think of a common spellcaster applying the empower spell feat to a chain lightning spell,the question to be answered remains the same.
Witch 06-13-06, 11:49 AM	It only affects the damage, not the number of targets. Why, you ask? When a creature uses an empowered spell-like ability, all variable, numeric effects of the spell-like ability are increased by one half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. Spell-like abilities without random variables are not affected. The number of targets is not random.
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 11:56 AM	Damn you are right. Just checked the 3.5 SRD and the description is quite different that of the 3.5 MM one (pg 303) Maybe there's a MM errata I'm missing out there :rolleyes:
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 12:03 PM	Damn you are right. Just checked the 3.5 SRD and the description is quite different that of the 3.5 MM one (pg 303) Maybe there's a MM errata I'm missing out there :rolleyes: Crap,just DL-ed the 3.5 MM errata and there's no correction like this. So I'm still wondering why the official MM both mentions targets AND variable numeric effects while the SRD doesn't (both on 3.5v)
belthazzar1113 06-13-06, 12:12 PM	1:yes 2:no
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 12:57 PM	I'd also appreciate if you answered the question that followed about the empowered eldritch chain
Rhomphaia 06-13-06, 01:04 PM	Hello all,it's been ages since I last entered the boards and the search tool is disabled. So these 2 questions that rose up may have already been answered some times,please excuse me if so. 1:If I use an essence invocation and a blast shape in a single blast,say a sickening blast and a chain blast,would the sickening blast affect all targets hit by the chain or not? (ignoring saves,SR and the like) Yes, they all would. Sometimes, this can result in more than one saving throw for each 'target', such as if you used Eldritch Cone (reflex for half damage) and had Sickening Blast (Fort save) on top of that. 2:Eldritch blast is noted as a Spell Like ability,thus like all spell like abilities it requires a standard action to use. But it is also regarded as a ranged attack. So do I benefit from multiple attacks when I use eldritch blast or am I always limited to a single one no matter any bonus I might have from other sources? (BAB,rapid shot etc) The only way I know of to get two attacks per round with an Eldritch Blast is to take the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat. However, you can only do this three times per day and you have to wait until level 12 (as well as expend a feat) to do it. Getting an item creation feat at level 12 makes a lot more sense to me. Now another one for those that delved deeper into the warlock. I was currently thinking to pick up the empower spell like ability feat in order to use it in conjuction with eldritch chain invocation. The feat's description says that all numerical effects are 1+1/2 times as much,including damage caused,targets affected etc. So my question is wether this increase both affects targets (more chain jumps) and eldritch damage. For those that have no idea what I am talking about just think of a common spellcaster applying the empower spell feat to a chain lightning spell,the question to be answered remains the same. The number of targets isn't random in an Eldritch Chain. If I remember right, it is a fixed amount based on level, so that isn't affected. Damage is however, but in that regard, you are better off picking up Maximize Spell-Like Ability. Especially since you qualify for them at the same level (six) if you plan on using it with your Eldritch Blast.
Thermanshs 06-13-06, 01:21 PM	The number of targets isn't random in an Eldritch Chain. If I remember right, it is a fixed amount based on level, so that isn't affected. Damage is however, but in that regard, you are better off picking up Maximize Spell-Like Ability. Especially since you qualify for them at the same level (six) if you plan on using it with your Eldritch Blast. And where is that feat located? MM doesn't have it :( I would please you all to check page 303 on the 3.5 MM to see the targets aspect I'm talking about.
Rhomphaia 06-13-06, 01:58 PM	Both the Warlock Class and the feat Maximize Spell-Like Ability are in Complete Arcane. As for the targeting aspect, Empower Spell-Like Ability works exactly like Empower Spell. The provision for the number of targets affected is in case someone has a spell like Color Spray (which has a variable number of targets) as an SLA. The pertinent sections of Empower Spell-Like Ability and Eldritch Chain are as follows. ...When a creature uses an empowered spell-like ability, all variable numeric effects of the spell are increased by one-half... This says variable. That means non-fixed numbers. Usually this is damage, but certain spells and effects have variables that could mean a different number of targets affected. Color Spray and Circle of Death come to mind. Eldritch Chain does not, as I am about to show. ...You can "jump" the chain to one secondary target per five caster levels... That's it. Nowhere does it say anything like "1d6 additional targets". This is a fixed number based on level. In other words, think of it like this; divide your warlock's level by five and round down, that is the number of secondary targets. Nothing random about it. Besides, even if you could use Empower Spell-Like Ability in conjunction with Eldritch Chain, you wouldn't be able to do so until 12th level anyway, with the restrictions placed on Empower SLA.
lukelightning 06-13-06, 02:14 PM	Warlox tastes good on warbagels with warcreamcheese.
Ranzadule 06-13-06, 03:14 PM	I cannot imagine not playing a Warlock. Cleric BA progression, Chain Shirt + dex for AC, ranged touch attack that I can use every turn and it hits as hard as a sneak attack without the weapon damage, but doesn't require me to flank or strike unseen and that's all for starters. Pretty tough class...
Witch 06-13-06, 03:24 PM	Ofcourse, a warlock can use his Eldritch Blast once per turn. A Rogue uses 6 attacks per turn, by level 20. Possibly more.
JadeSpider9643 06-13-06, 07:02 PM	I cannot imagine not playing a Warlock. Cleric BA progression, Chain Shirt + dex for AC, ranged touch attack that I can use every turn and it hits as hard as a sneak attack without the weapon damage, but doesn't require me to flank or strike unseen and that's all for starters. Pretty tough class... uh oh, sounds like someone just discovered warlocks and is in danger of thinking of them as overpowered. think of warlocks as a guy with a bolt-action rifle with a never-ending clip of armor-piercing bullets. Now think of any other class as a full squad of marines, complete with a medic, a commanding officer, sniper, light infantry, cavelry and a tank. And that pretty much sums up the differences. :D
Kari 06-14-06, 01:15 AM	Ofcourse, a warlock can use his Eldritch Blast once per turn. A Rogue uses 6 attacks per turn, by level 20. Possibly more. This is ignoring feats for one class while taking feats for another. A Warlock could toss two Eldritch Blasts around a turn, with a much better chance to hit than a Rogue (ranged touch vs normal ranged/melee.) Also, Eldritch Blast bypasses Damage Reduction and is unaffected by Energy Resistence. One feat required here (Quick Spell-Like Ability.) Affected by Spell Resistance (or can bypass, but at the cost of suffering Acid Resistance.) A Rogue, -by class- only gets -three- attacks. By taking feats (such as the TWF chain) a Rogue can have as many as 6. However, a Rogue's chance to hit with his lowest two attacks are.. well.. slim to none. (Heck, his chance to hit with his middle attacks is low!) Also, the Rogue requires invisibility, sneaking, or flanking in order to dish out Sneak Attack damage. Affected by Damage Reduction (however, bypasses Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance!) Upsides, downsides, but please, don't try to one-side things like that. And personally, I'd rather take my Warlock with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell-like Ability, and his always-on Flight and +6 to skills (along with all his magic items) to the Rogue, who has no feat-way to negate DR, and must use magic items to do anything spiffy. (I will admit rogues have a technical higher damage potential against single targets. And they get more skill points. Trade-offs are what make the game fun.)
zae 06-14-06, 02:56 AM	Heh, kari, at first I thought you were joining the "Warlocks are broken!" bandwagon. Then I read to the end. You're simply putting the facts straight. I'd say they're equal-ish, in general. Of course, get them both working together as a team and you have a good combination. Especially when the warlock starts making blinking blades (or whatever it is that makes the target always flat-footed) or robes of invisibility to hand to the rogue. Teamwork!
Cypher_of_the_Eye 06-14-06, 03:44 AM	Better than just flat-footed, Brilliant Energy all the way!!! better still if the blinking blades are Briliant (I don't know if they can do both at once, oooohhhhh, but if they could :eek: )
Ranzadule 06-14-06, 11:14 AM	Here's the reason I love the Warlock... I am without books in hand at work, so feel free to correct any errors. I'm making a diplomat/sage character for the Realms. I am human and take Cosmopolitan for one of my feats because, if I recall correctly, Diplomacy is not a class skill for me. I don't have to buy fancy weapons or a spellbook or components so I'll likely be able to pick up a mail shirt fairly soon if not at creation. Even with no int bonus to skills, I can get up to 5 ranks in Diplmoacy, Bluff and intimidate by level 2 and I think that is where all of the synergy kicks in and I can leave Bluff and Intimidate at 5 as I go up in levels and grab knowledge and Use magical device, along wiht more ranks in diplomacy from that point forward, with the number of knowledges governed by my Intelligence bonus. Before 5th level, with any decent charisma bonus and the cosmopolitan feat, plus possibly having a focus or Persuasive or whatever, added to my sweet warlock ability, I'll be +20 or more easily. Pretty good diplomacy! So my thing will be to be the spokesperson for the group, have decent knowledge and oh yeah...I have a never ending supply of missiles that hit like a rogue's sneak attack only from farther away and I don't need to catch them flat-footed. Pretty good. That doesn't even get into all of the bells and whistles. Playing the Lore Guy or the Diplomat is the only way I can see playing this class wihtout having it be simply a videogame character. What other ideas do you all have for this class?
Thermanshs 06-16-06, 12:35 AM	I think we got off our subject a bit,nevermind,my questions were all pretty well answered :) SO I COME UP WITH ANOTHER ONE!!! Check hellrime blast's short descriptions both on chapter 1 and 4,then check the full one on chapter 4. As my eyes can see,short descriptions mention a -2 penalty to dexterity while the full one a -4 :confused: Also checked the errata,no corrections referring to that point. Is there something wrong with the book or is it just me?
Rhomphaia 06-16-06, 05:47 AM	I think that was a typo that keeps getting overlooked, like the short description for Ray of Enfeeblement in the PHB still lists the Strength penalty as ability score damage. Take the actual text description of the invocation over the description in the short list.
fendrin 06-16-06, 10:09 AM	I don't have to buy fancy weapons For all warlocks out there- Fancy or not, ALWAYS have a weapon in hand in combat! Otherwise you will not get to take attacks of opportunity, and you will regret that greatly! Edit: a staff is a good choice. Low cost, and you aren't likely to forget to draw it, as you will already be carrying it. So my thing will be to be the spokesperson for the group, have decent knowledge and oh yeah...I have a never ending supply of missiles that hit like a rogue's sneak attack only from farther away and I don't need to catch them flat-footed. Pretty good. That doesn't even get into all of the bells and whistles. I will re-iterate what has been said many times... eldritch blast is not at all like sneak attack: 1) Sneak attack tops off at 10d6, eldritch blast tops off at 9d6. 2) Sneak attack can hit multiple times a round. Eldritch blast can be fired once a round. 3) Sneak attack works in an antimagic field. Eldritch blast does not (and is even stopped by a lesser globe on invulnerability). 4) Sneak attack is not stopped by SR. Eldritch blast is. Yes, some blast invocations can overcome or lessen these limitations, but the point remains, they are not very similar! P.S. yes, I only listed the things that SA is better at than EB. I got lazy didn;t type the other half of the list. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, just saying that they shouldn't be directly compared. Playing the Lore Guy or the Diplomat is the only way I can see playing this class wihtout having it be simply a videogame character. What other ideas do you all have for this class? Playing a Sniper, Artificer, Scout or other such role is possible too. And no warlock can be any more like a videogame character than a hack-and-slash fighter type already is, so I don't judge by that.
Thermanshs 06-16-06, 08:09 PM	I think that was a typo that keeps getting overlooked, like the short description for Ray of Enfeeblement in the PHB still lists the Strength penalty as ability score damage. Take the actual text description of the invocation over the description in the short list. I was instead thinking contacting the customers' department for a solid answer on that. Maybe those guys overlooked this spot when printing the errata