Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unundindur 03-15-08, 10:31 AM	Greetings. as far as I can see the tome of battle is very vague on how non-tome of battle PrCs interract with base classes from tome of battle. The way I interpret it they grant full initiator level, but no other progression. Page 39 sais prestige classes "usually" grant full progression, and direct me to chapter 5. In chapter five at page 96 non-ToB prestige classes are left without any comments at all... (Page 39 and 96 are my sources) Is my interpretation correct? And another smallish question: If I am a lv 5 warblade/14 fighter, could I take the extra maneuver feat and take a much higher level stance then (IL 5+7 (or higher if it is a PrC)=12, ie maneuver lv 6)? Thanks.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 03-15-08, 11:45 AM	Martial classes add their class level to the total initiator level, and non martial classes add half their class levels to the total. Example: 4 Swordsage/2 Fighter/ 3 Dwarven Defender = 4 + 1 + 1 = 6th level maximum If I'm off, someone please correct me.
Mindolin 03-15-08, 11:51 AM	No, you're right, and as for the feats, if it's something you can select with your total initiator level, I THINK you can choose it with the feat. I may be off on that .
BugHunter 03-15-08, 11:52 AM	Greetings. as far as I can see the tome of battle is very vague on how non-tome of battle PrCs interract with base classes from tome of battle. The way I interpret it they grant full initiator level, but no other progression. Page 39 sais prestige classes "usually" grant full progression, and direct me to chapter 5. In chapter five at page 96 non-ToB prestige classes are left without any comments at all... (Page 39 and 96 are my sources) Is my interpretation correct? The PrCs that grant full initiiator levels would be the ones presented in TOB while the non-TOB PrCs would be treated the same as non-TOB basic classes. Of course this just my opinion. And another smallish question: If I am a lv 5 warblade/14 fighter, could I take the extra maneuver feat and take a much higher level stance then (IL 5+7 (or higher if it is a PrC)=12, ie maneuver lv 6)? Thanks. Yes as long as you meet the prerequisites for the maneuver. Just remember you can not change the maneuver out for a different one.
unundindur 03-15-08, 12:07 PM	Ok, in my case that means a drow Warblade5/Dark hunter5/assassin8 Could take Martial study (Shadow hand: shadow stride) as a bonus feat at level 17, but not take Martial study (iron heart: strike of perfect clarity) at level 20? Btw, do we have any official source toward this conclusion? I really want an extra 100 damage on my death attack ;)
aelryinth 03-15-08, 12:47 PM	Martial classes add their class level to the total initiator level, and non martial classes add half their class levels to the total. Example: 4 Swordsage/2 Fighter/ 3 Dwarven Defender = 4 + 1 + 1 = 6th level maximum If I'm off, someone please correct me. This is not correct. Initiator Level is figured by class. Thus, if you are levelling up in swordsage, the above example is correct for choosing martial manuvers. A fighter levelling up would only have an IL of 4 in the above example...1.2 his fighter levels, +1/2 all other levels. A Swordsage/Warblade 4/10 would have an IL of 9 when taking Swordsage disciplinews and 12 when taking Warblade disciplines. This latter fact, btw, is why PrC's don't stack. You have to tie the manuver regens and things to one of your Martial Adept classes...the PrC then stacks with that class. It doesn't stack with ALL classes for determining IL. I.e. if the above character was a Master of Nine/4 also, he has to tie his Master levels to his Warblade or Swordsage levels. Since it has the better recovery method and higher IL, he ties them to Warblade. For IL, he's effectively a Swordsage 4, Warblade/16, with an IL of 12 for sage and 18 for Warblade. If he's a Fighter taking Martial Study, he unfortunately has to use the IL for his Fighter class to determine what he can take, even if he has MA levels and ties the manuver to that class. In other words, they didn't want Fighters able to grab the real good manuvers with Martial Study. Among other things, it means you can't take warblade/19 f/1 and use the bonus feat to grab a 9th level manuver with martial study at level 20. Your IL is 10 for that feat. ===Aelryinth
Sinfire Titan 03-15-08, 12:54 PM	This latter fact, btw, is why PrC's don't stack. You have to tie the manuver regens and things to one of your Martial Adept classes...the PrC then stacks with that class. It doesn't stack with ALL classes for determining IL. IIRC, there was a ruling contrary to what you are stating. I know it exists, because a lot of the CO boards mention the ruling when making an Adept. If I can find it, I will link it in this thread. But I have Dial-Up, so even Google is a slow search for me.
Howland Reed 03-15-08, 03:14 PM	No offense, Ael, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one. As I read it: --A level in a martial adept PrC stacks with all other martial adept levels seperately...if you are a Warblade4/Swordsage2/Crusader2 who takes a level of Master of Nine, your IL is: Warblade 7, Swordsage 6, Crusader 6. You do this when gaining maneuvers for any of your martial classes, whether gaining those maneuvers from that class, from a PrC (which ties to that class), or from a feat (however gained). While you do need to tie maneuvers learned/readied to a particular class, you don't need to tie the IL advancement...that's across the board. --When learning a new maneuver (whether from a martial adept class, a martial PrC, or the Martial Study feat) you decide what class you want to tie it to...and then you look at the IL for that class. I don't believe anything says that you have to tie it to the class you're leveling in when you take the feat; I think you have your choice. I could be wrong; don't have my ToB with me at work. I'll check when I get home and try to post some relevant quotes. I feel pretty confident on this one, though...I've read my ToB a bunch of times. I will admit a lot of the rules are kind of vague (particularly for the magic items in the back...I've never got a straight answer on those out of anyone, even CustServ). EDIT: Did a quick google...try <a href="http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611">this thread</a>, particularly post #6. It deals with the multiclassing IL from PrCs issue.
unundindur 03-15-08, 10:48 PM	In the case of a martial adept PrC it seems Ael is right, as is given on page 96 in ToB. That said, it isn't quite what i am trying to desipher, as I am trying to understand if a non initiator PrC counts as a "usual PrC" or "unusual PrC" to use the vague terms of ToB. The link provided by howland Reed rule that any PrC that do not explicitly state otherwise grant only 1/2 initiator level, although again I am curious as to where this is listed. I somehow have a feeling the reason only these are the only classes that grant full initiator level in their description, is because they are the only ones that take ToB into account. If he's a Fighter taking Martial Study, he unfortunately has to use the IL for his Fighter class to determine what he can take, even if he has MA levels and ties the manuver to that class. In other words, they didn't want Fighters able to grab the real good manuvers with Martial Study. Among other things, it means you can't take warblade/19 f/1 and use the bonus feat to grab a 9th level manuver with martial study at level 20. Your IL is 10 for that feat. Do you actually mean that if he was a Warblade 10/Fighter10, and he chose Martial study at lv 20 (with a fighter level) he would only be treated as a 10 lv initiator (half from all classes)? That makes no sense to me, and my sense of RAI :) The only thing that makes sense in the above example is that he counts as a 15 lv initiator. But again, where I really am at a hold is with the prestige classes, because I can see logic behind both rulings. 1. They only grant half progression because they give other benefits and 2. They grant full progression since they shouldn't penalize the ToB classes more than they already do (giving up known/redied and special abilities).
unundindur 03-15-08, 11:21 PM	Ok, I found the FAQ where it indeed lists that all PrCs that don't openly say so only grant 1/2 progression...damn... And I who though I was onto something really useful...sob...:)
LostZephyr 03-16-08, 12:19 AM	Well, I've been reading over my ToB book for the Martial Study question and it says any maneuver that you meet the prerequisites to, which does not include IL. This means that you can take a ninth level maneuver as long as you know five other maneuvers no matter your initiator level. The downside being that it cannot be recovered. I have not found anything contradicting this in book...
unundindur 03-16-08, 12:23 AM	Well, I've been reading over my ToB book for the Martial Study question and it says any maneuver that you meet the prerequisites to, which does not include IL. This means that you can take a ninth level maneuver as long as you know five other maneuvers no matter your initiator level. The downside being that it cannot be recovered. I have not found anything contradicting this in book... Hmm...that is indeed very interesting. Why shouldn't it be possible to recover it, if you have Initiator levels?
LostZephyr 03-16-08, 12:33 AM	Because it specifically states so in the feat description. Which I dont feel like typing cuz its extremely late and im extremely tired. -_-
unundindur 03-16-08, 12:47 AM	If you have martial adept levels this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known. The rest of the description state hwat happens if you do not already have martial adept levels. But isn't initiator level part of a maneuver's requirement, as with spells? If not I could by raw take a lv 9 stance at level 4 or something...
LostZephyr 03-16-08, 12:57 AM	Sorry my mistake, but under prerequisites it definitely only states the amount of maneuvers needed to learn the maneuver. By wording of the feat Initiator Level doesnt matter.
unundindur 03-16-08, 01:09 AM	Hmm... As much as I hate abuse I cannot deny that my assassin would embrace any mean to regain power after taking the assassin PrC in the first place. I am not utterly convinced though, so I will have to hear what others have to say on the issue. If your interpretation indeed is RAW then I won't hessitate to use it on a character who is otherwise not optimized.
Sinfire Titan 03-16-08, 01:49 AM	Well, I've been reading over my ToB book for the Martial Study question and it says any maneuver that you meet the prerequisites to, which does not include IL. This means that you can take a ninth level maneuver as long as you know five other maneuvers no matter your initiator level. The downside being that it cannot be recovered. I have not found anything contradicting this in book... Why do people keep getting this absurd idea? Page 39 shows what IL you can learn what maneuvers at. Martial Study also uses this chart. In fact, Martial Study specifically states your IL is 1/2 your Character Level.
Howland Reed 03-16-08, 02:03 AM	All right, I'm here with my ToB, and here are the relevant quotes: Re: Initiator Level: p. 39 "if you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes." They then go on to give the example of a 7th Crusader/5th Swordsage, whose IL would be 9th Crusader and 8th Swordsage. BUT...it says PrCs work differently, and to check the descriptions of the classes in chapter 5. Most of those classes have the following line (paraphrased): "You add your full class levels to your IL to determine your total IL and highest level maneuvers chosen" Note that the PrCs don't say that you must choose one class to tie to the PrC...much like "+1 level of spellcasting class", where you can decide at each level where to apply that improvement, each time you gain maneuvers known/readied, you pick one of your prior classes to add them on to. So: Take the Crusader7/Swordsage5 from earlier. He takes a level in Master of Nine. For his first level, he wants to add them to Swordsage...his IL is 5 (Swsg), plus 3 (half Crsd), plus 1 (MsoN), or 9. He takes a second level of Master of Nine, and decides to apply them to his Crusader side this time. His IL is 7 (Crsd), plus 2 (half Swsg), plus 2 (MsoN...remember, add full class levels), or 11. It only states that you need to tie your maneuvers known/readied to one of your prior classes...not your IL increases (at least, not as far as I can see). Now...while it doesn't explicitly say you follow this same pattern when you level your non-PrC martial adept classes, I think it does...because back on p. 39, it specified that PrCs are an exception to the usual "class levels, plus half of all other classes". So I believe they always add full levels to IL. If not, in what way are they an exception? Re: Martial Study p. 31 "If you have martial adept levels, this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known". It doesn't matter if you take it as a fighter feat or a regular feat or what have you...when you take it, you can add it to a martial class you already have. If you were a Warblade 19/Fighter 1, yes, you could take Martial Study and ( per the line quoted) add it to your Warblade maneuvers, using your Warblade IL. I have to disagree with LostZephyr...I consider Initiator level a prerequisite because on p. 39 it says that it determines the highest level maneuvers you can select. Saying you need to meet the prereqs for the maneuver does not sidestep this general requirement...it doesn't say "meet only the prereqs listed under the maneuver". I can't prove it as RAW, but I certainly believe it is RAI. I'll look for a ruling.
Otto the Bugbear 03-16-08, 08:52 AM	So: Take the Crusader7/Swordsage5 from earlier. He takes a level in Master of Nine. For his first level, he wants to add them to Swordsage...his IL is 5 (Swsg), plus 3 (half Crsd), plus 1 (MsoN), or 9. He takes a second level of Master of Nine, and decides to apply them to his Crusader side this time. His IL is 7 (Crsd), plus 2 (half Swsg), plus 2 (MsoN...remember, add full class levels), or 11. It only states that you need to tie your maneuvers known/readied to one of your prior classes...not your IL increases (at least, not as far as I can see). Now...while it doesn't explicitly say you follow this same pattern when you level your non-PrC martial adept classes, I think it does...because back on p. 39, it specified that PrCs are an exception to the usual "class levels, plus half of all other classes". So I believe they always add full levels to IL. If not, in what way are they an exception? Maybe I've been reading it wrong, but why would you even choose to add Mo9 initiator levels to swordsage initiator levels? Actually, aside from the recovery mechanic and a few maneuvers with variables based on IL, why would you ever choose to add Mo9 initiator levels to anything but your highest IL? Mo9 allows you to choose from any discipline. Therefore, you choose to increase your highest one every time (crusader in the example's case) and you can still choose swordsage maneuvers for those Mo9 levels. Perhaps theres a really good reason not to do this (and thus grab higher level maneuvers).
navar100 03-16-08, 06:28 PM	Maybe I've been reading it wrong, but why would you even choose to add Mo9 initiator levels to swordsage initiator levels? Actually, aside from the recovery mechanic and a few maneuvers with variables based on IL, why would you ever choose to add Mo9 initiator levels to anything but your highest IL? Mo9 allows you to choose from any discipline. Therefore, you choose to increase your highest one every time (crusader in the example's case) and you can still choose swordsage maneuvers for those Mo9 levels. Perhaps theres a really good reason not to do this (and thus grab higher level maneuvers). It's possible that you really like all the maneuvers you presently ready as a crusader and don't want to not have them. Putting the maneuvers gained through Master of Nine into swordsage allows you to keep those crusader maneuvers readied. It's also possible the maneuvers you select via Master of Nine are situational. You'll want them when you need them, but you won't necessarily need them all the time. The Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers are a good example. You won't necessarily need to make a particular saving throw every round of a combat or even in a combat at all. You're glad to have one ready should you need it, but if you don't need it, it takes up a slot you aren't using. If you put it in as a crusader, it takes up a slot you continually cycle through but aren't using. If you put it in swordsage, you have it when you need it and when you don't you still have your crusader maneuvers cycling.
Otto the Bugbear 03-16-08, 10:02 PM	It's possible that you really like all the maneuvers you presently ready as a crusader and don't want to not have them. Putting the maneuvers gained through Master of Nine into swordsage allows you to keep those crusader maneuvers readied. It's also possible the maneuvers you select via Master of Nine are situational. You'll want them when you need them, but you won't necessarily need them all the time. The Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers are a good example. You won't necessarily need to make a particular saving throw every round of a combat or even in a combat at all. You're glad to have one ready should you need it, but if you don't need it, it takes up a slot you aren't using. If you put it in as a crusader, it takes up a slot you continually cycle through but aren't using. If you put it in swordsage, you have it when you need it and when you don't you still have your crusader maneuvers cycling. If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, and the Mo9 entry, that doesn't matter as the Mo9 has it's own column for Maneuvers Readied. You don't sacrifice any of the Crusader readied maneuvers, except from not gaining crusader levels. A crusader 10 has 6 maneuvers readied (he qualified via martial study). Taking his 11th level as a Master of Nine allows him to keep on readying those same 6 maneuvers, plus one more readied from Master of Nine. At 12th level, he still has those 6 crusader readied maneuvers, plus 2 more readied from Mo9. Or did you mean something else?
navar100 03-17-08, 12:34 AM	If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, and the Mo9 entry, that doesn't matter as the Mo9 has it's own column for Maneuvers Readied. You don't sacrifice any of the Crusader readied maneuvers, except from not gaining crusader levels. A crusader 10 has 6 maneuvers readied (he qualified via martial study). Taking his 11th level as a Master of Nine allows him to keep on readying those same 6 maneuvers, plus one more readied from Master of Nine. At 12th level, he still has those 6 crusader readied maneuvers, plus 2 more readied from Mo9. Or did you mean something else? Incorrect. Master of Nine maneuvers, as for any sublime pretige class, add its maneuvers to a sublime class you already have. If you have more than one you choose into which they go. They are not separate. However, it is more advantageous, generally speaking, to add them to your crusader progression since Masters of Nine get to ready more maneuvers often. When added to crusader, they also count towards another maneuver immediately granted per cycle, as is true for any sublime pretige calss that adds another maneuver readied slot. In this hypothetical situation, it is more efficient overall to put Master of Nine maneuvers into crusader than swordsage, but if you really, really like your current crusader maneuvers, then swordsage is the option. However, since you have Adaptive Style feat, it doesn't really matter since you can switch your readied array if you need to. Personally, I'd go crusader 7/warblade 2 into Master of Nine. I'll lump the reflex save, be sure to take Moment of Perfect Mind from Diamond Mind for my will save, then take an Iron Heart and Tiger Claw maneuver to qualify since I surely already have Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven, thus having maneuvers from 6 different disciplibes. I get an awesome fortitude save, 2d12 hit points to help my steely resolve, uncanny dodge, and +Int to the reflex save I'm dumping if my Int is not attrocious. However, to do so means not taking Extra Granted Maneuver or Vital Recovery feats. They aren't must haves for crusaders, but I find they are really, really good for crusaders to take. In truth, I find the feat prerequisites for the prestige class to be overall really crappy. I just don't see myself really, really wanting to play the prestige class to put up with them, especially when plain old crusader or warblade are good enough and can each get better mileage out of other feats. Also, personally I only find Eternal Blade and Ruby Knight Vindicator to be the only sublime prestige classes I'd be marginally interested in taking, yet I have to be an elf for Eternal Blade and I hate elves :), but I digress.
Otto the Bugbear 03-18-08, 01:03 PM	narar100 Ok. I see there were a couple issues there then. I made a mistake about the Mo9 maneuvers. Meanwhile, your quote reads like taking Mo9 levels will displace readied maneuvers from the Crusader side. That's not actually taking place. The issue is the granted maneuver rotation being thrown off by adding in those other maneuvers gained through Mo9. To put it another way. If a Crusader 10 has 6 readied maneuvers, taking a level of Mo9 doesn't reduce those at all. In fact it grants that crusader 7 readied maneuvers. Instead, it screws with the mix and when maneuvers are granted. right?
navar100 03-18-08, 03:58 PM	narar100 Ok. I see there were a couple issues there then. I made a mistake about the Mo9 maneuvers. Meanwhile, your quote reads like taking Mo9 levels will displace readied maneuvers from the Crusader side. That's not actually taking place. The issue is the granted maneuver rotation being thrown off by adding in those other maneuvers gained through Mo9. To put it another way. If a Crusader 10 has 6 readied maneuvers, taking a level of Mo9 doesn't reduce those at all. In fact it grants that crusader 7 readied maneuvers. Instead, it screws with the mix and when maneuvers are granted. right? Right, but Masters of Nine also get a lot of maneuvers known. As is usual for any sublime class, you always have more maneuvers known than you can ready. Crusaders suffer from this the least because each new maneuver known or upgrade, if they choose to do so, can be from their highest level available. The extra maneuvers they don't ready are obsolete because their higher level ones are just better. Warblades gain new ones a lot more quickly than they can ready, thus have a tough choice between equal worth. Swordsages get a plethora and always have more than they can ready of tough choices between equal worth. Adding Master of Nine to Crusader just brings this dilemma into Crusader. It's not a game breaking dilemma, but an everything is so good you can't decide what to do dilemma. I agree Crusader is the better option overall, but some may prefer the Swordsage option of more maneuvers readied to help compensate knowing so many maneuvers. Again, for me, it's the crappy feat prerequisite that keeps me away from Master of Nine. Minor issue is choosing maneuvers from all 9 disciplines. Too many good choices, with some maneuvers requiring knowing more than one other maneuver of the discipline, thus narrowing the number of different disciplines you know limiting the prestige class class features. By design, I'm sure, but that's my problem. I'm just happy, except for stance progression, that the base classes are so "sublime" in their own right. I know, hard to believe I really, really, really like the book. :D
Otto the Bugbear 03-18-08, 05:58 PM	Sure. Understood. I agree completely with your assessment of the feat requirements. About the only time I can see it is if you're planning a build and just happen to have most/all the feats already in the works. For instance, I was planning a Monk 2 / Swordsage 4 / Warblade 14. That one was a single feat away from qualifying for Mo9, and I had two open feat slots I couldn't decide on. Long story short, that really made it easy to just grab Imp. Initiative and enter Mo9. If I hadn't just so happened to be that close already, I'd likely have not even contemplated Mo9.
Tempest Stormwind 03-18-08, 06:18 PM	I'm not seeing much discussion on this (maybe it's there and I missed it in my hungry state), but you were both aware that adding maneuvers readied to the crusader also adds a granted maneuver? It wouldn't mess with the rotation at all -- if you have five readied maneuvers and three granted (Extra Granted Maneuver), you'll refresh all your maneuvers after your third round of battle, and if you have six readied and four granted (add a Mo9 level to crusader)... you'll refresh all your maneuvers after your third round of battle. It's an obscure point, and Mo9 is (absurdly) hard to qualify for, but putting the two together can result in you having more maneuvers than you can use, with the odds of *not* having the necessary maneuver ready being next to nil (particularly with Adaptive Style, and *especially* if you keep Moment of Alacrity readied to adjust for that).
Otto the Bugbear 03-18-08, 06:32 PM	Honestly, I've never used Crusader for anything yet, except some low level mooks, so no wonder my normal level of confusion is showing a little stronger than usual.
Mojo_Rat 03-19-08, 02:01 AM	I was under the impression that PRC's no matter where they are from added their Level to your initiator level. This seems to be supported by what is written on page 39 (going by what a previous poster wrote my memory seemed to suggest 37 but that seems wrong) So a an elf Fighter 10/Champion of Corellion Lorethion 10 as an example would have an Initiator level of 15. Assuming he could spend feats at appropriate times to take advantage of that.
Sinfire Titan 03-19-08, 02:29 AM	I was under the impression that PRC's no matter where they are from added their Level to your initiator level. This seems to be supported by what is written on page 39 (going by what a previous poster wrote my memory seemed to suggest 37 but that seems wrong) So a an elf Fighter 10/Champion of Corellion Lorethion 10 as an example would have an Initiator level of 15. Assuming he could spend feats at appropriate times to take advantage of that. Only if the PrC grants maneuvers as part of the class advancement does it add the full level to IL. Otherwise it is treated like any other class.
unundindur 03-20-08, 03:54 AM	Only if the PrC grants maneuvers as part of the class advancement does it add the full level to IL. Otherwise it is treated like any other class. What is the source for this? As far as i know customer service have ruled like this, but no errata, nor any book actually support it. Back on another topic though, I found an interesting note regarding requirements for learning maneuvers... At page 149 in ToB under the prerequesites of the "Crown of white ravens" it says you have to meet hte requirements of of any maneuver you desire. Further down on page 150 in the footnote it mentions a wizard, and how nice these items can be for introducing maneuvers etc. The way I comprehend this favours the "Initiator level is not part of a maneuver's requirement" line of thinking, which I previously was a bit ambigious toward. How else would a wizard make use of a master crown of white ravens (I know there are some rare instances it could still work, though it seems unlikely that was the intention imo)? My analogy would thus be that this would be translated to the feat Martial study, which also say you have to meet the requirements of the maneuver. Thoughts?
Otto the Bugbear 03-20-08, 07:29 AM	Of course, the section you're talking about says nothing about being able to skip the initiator level bit. Coupled with the fact that there are actually maneuvers that have no requirements other than the minimum initiator level means you're stretching a bit. And if you think you're not, my first level swordsage takes Mountain Tombstone Strike, Shadow Blink, Death in the Dark, etc. The wizard in that passage could have a Ring of Diamond Mind (Insightful Strike). Thanks to the cost, he has to be of a level that allows him to meet the minimum initiator level. This means he'll have to be at least 2nd level (initiator level of 1), but even then he won't be able to afford the ring due to wealth by level.
unundindur 03-20-08, 07:44 AM	Of course, the section you're talking about says nothing about being able to skip the initiator level bit. Coupled with the fact that there are actually maneuvers that have no requirements other than the minimum initiator level means you're stretching a bit. And if you think you're not, my first level swordsage takes Mountain Tombstone Strike, Shadow Blink, Death in the Dark, etc. The wizard in that passage could have a Ring of Diamond Mind (Insightful Strike). Thanks to the cost, he has to be of a level that allows him to meet the minimum initiator level. This means he'll have to be at least 2nd level (initiator level of 1), but even then he won't be able to afford the ring due to wealth by level. You have a point, which I also had earlier ;) I agree.
Sinfire Titan 03-20-08, 06:57 PM	What is the source for this? As far as i know customer service have ruled like this, but no errata, nor any book actually support it. Back on another topic though, I found an interesting note regarding requirements for learning maneuvers... At page 149 in ToB under the prerequesites of the "Crown of white ravens" it says you have to meet hte requirements of of any maneuver you desire. Further down on page 150 in the footnote it mentions a wizard, and how nice these items can be for introducing maneuvers etc. The way I comprehend this favours the "Initiator level is not part of a maneuver's requirement" line of thinking, which I previously was a bit ambigious toward. How else would a wizard make use of a master crown of white ravens (I know there are some rare instances it could still work, though it seems unlikely that was the intention imo)? My analogy would thus be that this would be translated to the feat Martial study, which also say you have to meet the requirements of the maneuver. Thoughts? You add your full bloodclaw master levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. You add your full deepstone sentinel levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. You add your full eternal blade levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. You add your full jade phoenix mage levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. You add your full master of nine levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. You add your full ruby knight vindicator levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. You add your full shadow sun ninja levels to your IL to determine your total IL and your highest level maneuvers known. Each of those PrCs grant maneuvers. Each of them has this text. This is to be assumed of every PrC that grants martial maneuvers as part of the normal advancement (not through bonus feats). This text is supposed to be a given.
Howland Reed 03-20-08, 07:04 PM	I was under the impression that PRC's no matter where they are from added their Level to your initiator level. This seems to be supported by what is written on page 39 Actually, what p. 39 says is that PrCs can be an exception to the normal rule...and then it directs you to look in the chapter on PrCs and read the descriptions for those classes. Basically, it was simply pointing out that there are exceptions...but unless a PrC SAYS it's an exception, it isn't one. All of the PrCs in the ToB (EDIT: except the Bloodstorm Blade, apparently) specifically state that their class levels are full initiator levels. Unless a PrC from another source does likewise (none do, to my knowledge), they only add half levels like all other classes. Sorry if what I quoted was misleading.
Tempest Stormwind 03-20-08, 07:32 PM	Note: The Bloodstorm Blade doesn't grant maneuvers, and it lacks the initiator level text despite being a PrC and despite being in the ToB. Unless a PrC says it advances IL on a 1:1 basis, it doesn't.