Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DPo6x3 03-27-05, 02:06 AM	can anyone explain to me how flurry of blows works while weilding two weapons?
Eliza_Stormwhisper 03-27-05, 02:31 AM	It doesn't.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-05, 04:51 AM	Actually, it does. Although you cannot, for some bizarre reason, use an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack (don't ask me why, that's just what the rules say, I think the rule is stupid, but anyhow), you can use an off hand attack. Alright, let's take a monk 1 with two weapon fighting and two kamas, shall we? The monk has one attack at +0 BaB. If he flurries, he has one extra attack, -2/-2 If he adds in an off-hand weapon attack, he gets one off hand attack, adding -2 to all attacks. -4/-4/-4 Although the extra flurry attack does normal strenght bonus, the extra off-hand attack still deals 1/2 strength bonus, per normal two weapon fighting rules. That being said, it's generally not a good idea to use two weapon fighting with a monk, you will have enough problems as it is hitting your foes in combat, it will turn flurry of blows into flurry of misses.
Nephlite 03-27-05, 11:10 AM	Actually, it does. Although you cannot, for some bizarre reason, use an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack (don't ask me why, that's just what the rules say, I think the rule is stupid, but anyhow), you can use an off hand attack. Alright, let's take a monk 1 with two weapon fighting and two kamas, shall we? The monk has one attack at +0 BaB. If he flurries, he has one extra attack, -2/-2 If he adds in an off-hand weapon attack, he gets one off hand attack, adding -2 to all attacks. -4/-4/-4 Although the extra flurry attack does normal strenght bonus, the extra off-hand attack still deals 1/2 strength bonus, per normal two weapon fighting rules. That being said, it's generally not a good idea to use two weapon fighting with a monk, you will have enough problems as it is hitting your foes in combat, it will turn flurry of blows into flurry of misses. Actually a Monk may make a unarmed offhand attack the faq says i believe, but why would you want to I think it says. It also sats you can do TWF and Flurrry at same time.
shadow mage 03-27-05, 01:43 PM	Actually a Monk may make a unarmed offhand attack the faq says i believe, but why would you want to I think it says. It also sats you can do TWF and Flurrry at same time. The FAQ is not an official ruling. As per the unarmed strike description in the Player's Handbook ("There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" in the SRD) unarmed attacks are never off hand. I agree with Count Arioch in that it doesn't make sense at face value, but I suppose if they were listed as off-hand attacks they would deal only 1/2 normal strength modifier to damage for the 'off-hand' unarmed strike. Two-weapon fighting and flurry of blows do work together if used with weapons (not unarmed strikes), but as was mentioned earlier it's a generally bad combination for the user.
-Defiler of Souls- 03-27-05, 02:11 PM	you can do two weapon fighting only when your weilding a weapon of some sort(so you can't do it unarmed, as per PHB description of a monk unarmed attacks) if you are wielding monk special weapons flurry and two weapon fighting may both be used at once for example with BaB +15 greater flurry and all 3 two weapon fighting feats your attacks would be main hand: +13/+8/+3 offhand hand: +13/+8/+3 flurry attacks: +13/+13 alltogether thats +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 the two flurry attacks can be with either weapon(main hand or off hand) or can do unarmed damage(you can do unarmed damage with flurry attacks even when wielding weapons). also flurry attacks add 1x your strength modifier to damage even if you make your flurry attacks with your off hand weapon.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-05, 05:33 PM	The FAQ is not an official ruling. Unfortunately, the FAQ is 100% official. I've been in several arguments about it, it's been established by WotC employees that they consider the FAQ to be 100% official in every way. Like it or hate it, it is official.
shadow mage 03-27-05, 06:08 PM	Unfortunately, the FAQ is 100% official. I've been in several arguments about it, it's been established by WotC employees that they consider the FAQ to be 100% official in every way. Like it or hate it, it is official. Ah, I stand corrected. Glad they finally commented on that one.
tender branson 03-27-05, 06:17 PM	a 9th-level monk with a bab at +6/+1 with two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and flurry of blows makes my brain hurt. let alone having one glove with an enhancement bonus and the off hand having a glove with a completely different enhancement bonus. i tried adding that up once and woke up in a strange place with a mortician's degree in one hand and a bronze statue of baphomet in the other.
Lazy Wanderer 03-27-05, 06:30 PM	[useless post]Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency (long sword) (or playing an Elf), Weapon Focus (longsword), and Whirling Steel Strike. By level 16 (considering Elf or Human and going all Monk) that would be +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 with one longsword and +12/+7/+2 with the other longsword. It'd cost 7 feats but it'd be neat to have a Monk make 8 attacks (9 with Haste or a speeding weapon) with two longswords in one round at no TWF penalty.[/useless post]
Tesler 03-30-05, 02:44 PM	Ok, for S&Gs lets get REALLY Crazy!! Make the character a Gestalt Monk/Fighter or a Monk/Ranger. Give him Double Steel Strike and a Double Sword. IN-F'N-SANE!!! I'm not even going to begin to calculate the total flurry with the weapon but MY GOOD GRAVY DAT'S ALOT OF DAMAGE!!!
Deviston 03-30-05, 03:22 PM	do i have this right ? a level 20 monk with full TWF feats (( minus perfect )) gets this many attacks in a flurry? Norm +13/+13/+13/+7/+3 For Two Wep +13/+7/+3 Off hand Flurry +13/+13 for a total of 13/13/13/13/13/7/7/3/3 and if hasted 13/13/13/13/13/13/7/3/3 another question, I know that two haste effects dont stack, but a speed weapon deals an extra attack from IT being fast not you, so if you arte dual weilding with two speed weapons, do oyu get two extra attacks from two FAST weapons? and is there any way to weild a weapon like a scimitar (( if by another class feature it is considered light )) and use flurry? if so, a 20 monk with ten levels of Dervish . . . i think thats about 25-30 attacks for a full round action once per day (( thousand cuts feature ))
shadow mage 03-30-05, 03:36 PM	You seem to have missed our point thus far: can you hit? Considering the increasing penalties for iterative attacks, I doubt it. Deviston, you've included the -2 penalty for flurry, now include the other -2 for two-weapon fighting. +11 to hit at 20th level just isn't that impressive.
Deviston 03-30-05, 03:51 PM	you must be on 3.0, 3.5 at level 9 monk totally removes the penalty for flurry-ing, and 11th level monk gives ANOTHER attack at highest bonus, dont believe me? check the SRD.
KangTheCallipygian 03-30-05, 04:09 PM	is there any way to weild a weapon like a scimitar (( if by another class feature it is considered light )) and use flurry?Flurrying doesn't require light weapons - it requires monk weapons. Or unarmed strikes, which are even less like scimitars than monk weapons are. The only way I can think of to make this work is if you find or design some sort of variant monk class, sort of like the Ghurka(sp?)-based monk variant presented in the recent issue (#330 IIRC, though it could have been #329) of Dragon Magazine's Class Acts article, who can use kukri as monk weapons. Only, for scimitars instead of kukri. Don't count on your DM allowing it, though... Kang
Thorak 03-30-05, 04:21 PM	Why is it that every Flurry/TWF thread is about unarmed strikes? Monks don't have to use unarmed strikes. Have a monk wielding two kama, and there is absolutely no reason or insinuation anywhere in the books that you could not both Flurry and TWF with the two kama. Flurry and TWF stack. The only weird bit is monks making off-hand unarmed strikes. And that's been clarified by the FAQ, as noted. But it doesn't bear directly on whether or not Flurry and TWF stack or not.
Nephlite 03-30-05, 04:24 PM	Flurrying doesn't require light weapons - it requires monk weapons. Or unarmed strikes, which are even less like scimitars than monk weapons are. The only way I can think of to make this work is if you find or design some sort of variant monk class, sort of like the Ghurka(sp?)-based monk variant presented in the recent issue (#330 IIRC, though it could have been #329) of Dragon Magazine's Class Acts article, who can use kukri as monk weapons. Only, for scimitars instead of kukri. Don't count on your DM allowing it, though... Kang Or he flurries with unarmed strike and makesTWF offhand attacks with the scimitar. I think he wants to offhand to be light when using scimitar(small scimitar maybe/ kukri) so less penalties for using offhand.
Codo 03-30-05, 04:24 PM	It would be odd that they in one section it might say that you can't off-hand an unarmed strike, especially when elsewhere in PHB3.5 it says: - If your off hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) This is page 160 under Two-Weapon Fighting. But even with the TWF feat, a monk trying to use an off-hand unarmed attack is really in trouble without it? Bad idea... I mean you're taking -4 on your primary (and also on your Flurry attack), and -8 on the off-hand attack. And you've already dropped 2 on everything to take the Flurry of blows in the first place. A level 1 monk is defintely nuts to try this. Your attack rolls for trying to get 3 attacks in is -6/-6/-10. Even with TWF, this is still -4/-4/-4. If you get to level 5 and try this, you're at least up to 0/0/0. But this is really not impressive for a 5th level character. However, this doesn't take into account STR bonuses to hit of course. At least at level 9, things get a little better as the monk gains an additional normal attack, and loses the flurry penalty and can move up to +4/+4/+4/-1 Deviston OK, let me see if I can power through this :) At level 20, you have a monk who normally gets 3 attacks. The monk also has Greater Flurry that allows 2 additional attacks. You have TWF/ITWF/GTWF, which allows for 3 attacks on the off hand. TWF allows the off hand attack, and since the unarmed is considered a light, you get a -2/-2 penalty. IWTF allows another off hand at -5. GTWF allows a third attack at -10. So what I see is that you get: Primary Attack #1: +13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Flurry #1:+13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Flurry #2: +13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Off Hand #1: +13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Primary Attack #2: +8 (+10 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Off Hand #2: +8 (+13 -5 for ITWF attack -0 Flurry) Primary Attack #3: +3 (+5 -2 two weapon -0 flurry) Off Hand #3: +3 (+13 -10 for GTWF attack -0 flurry) So that's: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3, and one more +13 if hasted. And joy if this guy has any Cleave feats.
Codo 03-30-05, 04:27 PM	Why is it that every Flurry/TWF thread is about unarmed strikes? Monks don't have to use unarmed strikes. Have a monk wielding two kama, and there is absolutely no reason or insinuation anywhere in the books that you could not both Flurry and TWF with the two kama. Flurry and TWF stack. The only weird bit is monks making off-hand unarmed strikes. And that's been clarified by the FAQ, as noted. But it doesn't bear directly on whether or not Flurry and TWF stack or not. Because, using the example that was dissected just above, the level 20 monk gets 2d10+STR per unarmed strike (and technically 2d10+1/2 STR for the off hands??). Which monk weapon is it that gives 2d10 damage again??
Deviston 03-30-05, 05:21 PM	Deviston OK, let me see if I can power through this :) At level 20, you have a monk who normally gets 3 attacks. The monk also has Greater Flurry that allows 2 additional attacks. You have TWF/ITWF/GTWF, which allows for 3 attacks on the off hand. TWF allows the off hand attack, and since the unarmed is considered a light, you get a -2/-2 penalty. IWTF allows another off hand at -5. GTWF allows a third attack at -10. So what I see is that you get: Primary Attack #1: +13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Flurry #1:+13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Flurry #2: +13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Off Hand #1: +13 (+15 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Primary Attack #2: +8 (+10 -2 two weapon -0 Flurry) Off Hand #2: +8 (+13 -5 for ITWF attack -0 Flurry) Primary Attack #3: +3 (+5 -2 two weapon -0 flurry) Off Hand #3: +3 (+13 -10 for GTWF attack -0 flurry) So that's: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3, and one more +13 if hasted. And joy if this guy has any Cleave feats. i came to my 2 more attack conclusions thinking that the flurry would apply to your offhand attacks aswell as your primary, giving you 2 flurryies for primary and 2 for offhand . . nifty . . but ok, a dude doing 8-9 attacks a round at 2d10+str (( str 1/2 for 3 of those attacks )) will be pretty nasty. thats pretty much like . . . 16d10+whatever . . . omg . . . i think i mussed my pants . . . aw crap, i did. :(
Codo 03-31-05, 08:27 AM	I came to my 2 more attack conclusions thinking that the flurry would apply to your offhand attacks aswell as your primary, giving you 2 flurryies for primary and 2 for offhand . . nifty . . but ok, a dude doing 8-9 attacks a round at 2d10+str (( str 1/2 for 3 of those attacks )) will be pretty nasty. thats pretty much like . . . 16d10+whatever . . . omg . . . i think i mussed my pants . . . aw crap, i did. The reson I don't believe that Flurry/Greater Flurry adds to your off-hand attacks is that the Flurry/Greater Flurry descriptions specifically state that the monk recieves one/two extra attacks for the round. It does not specify whether its for primary or secondary, so my assumption is that it means for the round period. But yeah, that can get nasty. Assume the monk has a decent STR of like 14, which is +2 damage. That means if he hits with all of those attacks, its around 16d10+13 damage. On average rolls, you're looking at about 101 points of damage, not-withstanding any special attacks or crits.
Thorak 03-31-05, 08:30 AM	Because, using the example that was dissected just above, the level 20 monk gets 2d10+STR per unarmed strike (and technically 2d10+1/2 STR for the off hands??). Which monk weapon is it that gives 2d10 damage again?? That's one weapon. My point was that, if you're asking whether Flurry and TWF stack, the answer is unquestionably yes. The only complication is based on the restrictions on one weapon. It is, frankly, like asking if Reach weapons threaten, because the whip doesn't.
Codo 03-31-05, 08:54 AM	OK, after seeing your reply and re-reading your question, I think I now understand the point you were trying to make... You basically feel that people only question if Flurry/TWF stack if someone is trying to used unarmed damage, but won't even blink if someone uses a weapon and stacks TWF/Flurry. Right? :) That's one weapon. My point was that, if you're asking whether Flurry and TWF stack, the answer is unquestionably yes. The only complication is based on the restrictions on one weapon. It is, frankly, like asking if Reach weapons threaten, because the whip doesn't. Or asking if a reach weapon can hit a person 5' away because it says a Spike Chain can.... ;)
Count Arioch the 28th 03-31-05, 09:03 AM	Because, using the example that was dissected just above, the level 20 monk gets 2d10+STR per unarmed strike (and technically 2d10+1/2 STR for the off hands??). Which monk weapon is it that gives 2d10 damage again?? You have that wrong. It's 2d10-15, on account that you aren't going to bypass DR. Because let's face it, very few things at level 20 are going to have DR Lawful, Magic, or Adamantine, but almost everything has DR 15/whatever. It's much easier to get a holy, silver kama than it is to get holy, silver hands. Or whatever type of weapon you need. So, you have 1d6 (Average 3.5), or 2d10-15 (Average -4). Also, add in the fact that the 1d6 weapon will have +5 to hit, which is a fairly large bonus, and makes a huge difference when you have medium BaB. Tell me again why the 2d10 is even relevant at all?
Deviston 03-31-05, 09:22 AM	Because let's face it, very few things at level 20 are going to have DR Lawful, Magic, or Adamantine, but almost everything has DR 15/whatever. It's much easier to get a holy, silver kama than it is to get holy, silver hands. Or whatever type of weapon you need. Tell me again why the 2d10 is even relevant at all? First of all . . . you say that few things will have said DR? Who is to say that, the DM. Are you the DM in everyones campaign? I'd have to lean toward the "No" on my yes or no meter. And Hey!! Good point, sort of, and if you notice that your unarmed strikes are not doing what pounding that they should, then you pull out the kamas. The point is, your U.A. are your main weapon dealing the most damage, and your "weapons" are secondary. But none the less needed. and not all monsters and people have DR/whatever, some have no DR at all (( I would even lean toward the word "most" instead of "some", can you count the number of people in a town with DR even on two hands? probably not even that much. )) So good point, sort of.
shadow mage 03-31-05, 03:03 PM	First of all . . . you say that few things will have said DR? Who is to say that, the DM. Are you the DM in everyones campaign? I'd have to lean toward the "No" on my yes or no meter. And Hey!! Good point, sort of, and if you notice that your unarmed strikes are not doing what pounding that they should, then you pull out the kamas. The point is, your U.A. are your main weapon dealing the most damage, and your "weapons" are secondary. But none the less needed. and not all monsters and people have DR/whatever, some have no DR at all (( I would even lean toward the word "most" instead of "some", can you count the number of people in a town with DR even on two hands? probably not even that much. )) So good point, sort of. Except that now you're drawing those melee weapons while already in melee against a foe who is likely quite dangerous. Most creatures with damage reduction are fairly powerful for their CR. I don't care how good a high-level monk is, I'd love to see him try to draw in melee a weapon (or weapons) against a maralith, you see? Now you have to consider this second point, though. Weapons to eat past damage reduction don't come without cost. In fact, gaining an alignment-specific weapon that is also cold-iron (a very common 'weakness' for creatures with DR in 3.5) or some other metal would cost quite a bit. But then you'd only have a weapon that could get past damage reduction and fails at dealing any true damage. You could take a holy avenger to a fiend, for instance, but you're still drawing it in melee and incuring very painful AoO's.
Thorak 03-31-05, 04:09 PM	OK, after seeing your reply and re-reading your question, I think I now understand the point you were trying to make... You basically feel that people only question if Flurry/TWF stack if someone is trying to used unarmed damage, but won't even blink if someone uses a weapon and stacks TWF/Flurry. Right? :) I feel that people are asking the wrong question. They're asking "Do flurry and TWF stack?" when what they want an answer to has absolutely nothing to do with Flurry. What they want to know is "Can a monk wield his unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon with TWFing?" The reasons people say they don't stack is because you can't off-hand a monk's unarmed strike. This has nothing to do with flurry or TWF. Only with a monk's unarmed strikes and how they interact with TWF. That's my point.
Deviston 03-31-05, 04:20 PM	Except that now you're drawing those melee weapons while already in melee against a foe who is likely quite dangerous. Most creatures with damage reduction are fairly powerful for their CR. I don't care how good a high-level monk is, I'd love to see him try to draw in melee a weapon (or weapons) against a maralith, you see? Now you have to consider this second point, though. Weapons to eat past damage reduction don't come without cost. In fact, gaining an alignment-specific weapon that is also cold-iron (a very common 'weakness' for creatures with DR in 3.5) or some other metal would cost quite a bit. But then you'd only have a weapon that could get past damage reduction and fails at dealing any true damage. You could take a holy avenger to a fiend, for instance, but you're still drawing it in melee and incuring very painful AoO's. Quick-Draw
The Wasp 03-31-05, 06:36 PM	Quick-Draw Actually, its even easier. Unarmed strikes can be kicks. You can keep your kama in your hand while doing as many unarmed strikes as you want.
shadow mage 03-31-05, 08:58 PM	Actually, its even easier. Unarmed strikes can be kicks. You can keep your kama in your hand while doing as many unarmed strikes as you want. Which takes care of one of the mentioned problems (attacks of opportunity), but does what to solve the problem with allocation of resources? A monk needs a good bit of cash to be "all that he can be", so to speak, and it's going to cost a pretty penny (...copper?) to upgrade that kama into anything truly useful.
Nephlite 03-31-05, 10:29 PM	I feel that people are asking the wrong question. They're asking "Do flurry and TWF stack?" when what they want an answer to has absolutely nothing to do with Flurry. What they want to know is "Can a monk wield his unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon with TWFing?" The reasons people say they don't stack is because you can't off-hand a monk's unarmed strike. This has nothing to do with flurry or TWF. Only with a monk's unarmed strikes and how they interact with TWF. That's my point. From the 3.5 FAQ Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls? A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she may make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand). If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon. A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand. So Yes, you can use a Unarmed strike offhand for TWfing.
shadow mage 03-31-05, 11:13 PM	Strange, considering it completely contradicts the "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" clause of the monk's unarmed strike ability. Both sound pretty explicit, so which is it? Maybe this is the 'real question' Thorak was talking about.
Thorak 04-01-05, 08:09 AM	Strange, considering it completely contradicts the "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" clause of the monk's unarmed strike ability. Both sound pretty explicit, so which is it? Maybe this is the 'real question' Thorak was talking about. Exactly. I personally use the FAQ's rule, but I can see where the argument comes from that it's wrong. The FAQ is not automatically right. It's not allowed to contradict the core books. And it does. Several times.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-01-05, 08:37 AM	First of all . . . you say that few things will have said DR? Who is to say that, the DM. [.quote] According the the monster manual, here are the CR 20 and up monsters. Listed beside them is their DR: Balor: DR 15/ cold iron and good Pit Fiend: DR 15/good and silver Tarrasque: DR 15/ epic Titan: DR 15/lawful (Monk can hit this) Solar: DR 15/epic and evil Various dragons: Various/magic (Monk can hit this) Alright, we have 2 out of 6. (Assuming we count Tarrassque, since technically no one should be overcoming it's DR anyway.) Point: Mine. [quote] and not all monsters and people have DR/whatever, some have no DR at all (( I would even lean toward the word "most" instead of "some", can you count the number of people in a town with DR even on two hands? probably not even that much. )) Alright, you are saying since that your typical level 1 commoner doesn't have any DR that means most monsters do not? Pretty much every monster past about CR 7 or so has DR. If you need further proof, look it up, but most monsteras have DR of soem sort or another by about level 7 or so. But level 1 commoners in town don't have DR, so I guess that means I'm wrong, in your peculiar brand of logic. So good point, sort of. I really, really like the part where you left out that the kama at level 20 will most likely have a +5 enhancement on it, giving the weapon using monk a huge advantage to hit. Average damage for a level 20 monk(2d10 damage): 11 Average damage for a kama +5: 8.5 Assuming an AC of 30 (Fairly low for level 20), the monk will hit on an unarmed strike 30% of the time, the kama will connect 55% of the time. Now, is it worth giving up 25% of your accuracy for a piddly 2.5 extra damage per hit? (And that's not counting enhancements, a shocking frost flaming kama will do far more damage than an unarmed strike.) Face it, you can't defend unarmed strike as a main attack, and your general snottiness only adds savor to my complete and utter demolition of your feeble attempts to argue.
philippe willaume 04-01-05, 08:39 AM	I do not think they contradicts each other. I think one concernes two weapons fighting (or one weapon in one hand and the other empty). and the one you are refering to which i think is the rule for the un-armed attack of the monk. (no weapon in either hands). basically it says that you strike with whatever hand is the best to hit you oppoenent and that is included in the moken open hand so you do not have the malus for off hand attack because it is not considered as two wepon fighting, if you see what I mean. phil. PS: i have been wrong before so.... :tongue:
Pinky's brain 04-01-05, 08:46 AM	I still think a monk should just be able to use gauntlets ... but oh well, there is always the warforged.
Codo 04-01-05, 09:05 AM	Which takes care of one of the mentioned problems (attacks of opportunity), but does what to solve the problem with allocation of resources? A monk needs a good bit of cash to be "all that he can be", so to speak, and it's going to cost a pretty penny (...copper?) to upgrade that kama into anything truly useful. Or maybe not any money at all. Vow of Poverty anybody? At level 20, you're packing +5 magic weapons on anything you're carrying, and now YOU have DR as well :)
Count Arioch the 28th 04-01-05, 09:16 AM	Yeah, there aren't a lot of level 20 monks with DR. :smirk:
Deviston 04-01-05, 09:33 AM	First of all . . . you say that few things will have said DR? Who is to say that, the DM. According the the monster manual, here are the CR 20 and up monsters. Listed beside them is their DR: Balor: DR 15/ cold iron and good Pit Fiend: DR 15/good and silver Tarrasque: DR 15/ epic Titan: DR 15/lawful (Monk can hit this) Solar: DR 15/epic and evil Various dragons: Various/magic (Monk can hit this) Alright, we have 2 out of 6. (Assuming we count Tarrassque, since technically no one should be overcoming it's DR anyway.) Point: Mine. Very good point!! I can hit 2/6 creatures that have a high DR that are in the MM. and we all know that the MM is the only book to use!! and we all know that at high levels, you only fight these 6 creatures, and none others, i mean, what DM in their right mind would put anything else? Very good point, I mean EVERYONE goes to Hell and fights demons and devils, EVERYONE. and EVERYONE fights a Tarasque and Angels, I mean, what loser would consider passing up these chances, who would be stupid enough not to provoke a Solar into fighting them, you'de have to be stupid not to. Alright, you are saying since that your typical level 1 commoner doesn't have any DR that means most monsters do not? Pretty much every monster past about CR 7 or so has DR. If you need further proof, look it up, but most monsteras have DR of soem sort or another by about level 7 or so. But level 1 commoners in town don't have DR, so I guess that means I'm wrong, in your peculiar brand of logic. I am saying that most monks (( in every camp I've played )) try to stay in temples or near places of great population, never near a monsters lair, so why would they focus on monster fighting? Sure, you get your monster hear and their, and maybe he's got DR, but that's part of the challenge. If you have everything that bypasses DR then the enemy is not as hard, and therefore not as exp giving. I really, really like the part where you left out that the kama at level 20 will most likely have a +5 enhancement on it, giving the weapon using monk a huge advantage to hit. Average damage for a level 20 monk(2d10 damage): 11 Average damage for a kama +5: 8.5 Assuming an AC of 30 (Fairly low for level 20), the monk will hit on an unarmed strike 30% of the time, the kama will connect 55% of the time. Now, is it worth giving up 25% of your accuracy for a piddly 2.5 extra damage per hit? (And that's not counting enhancements, a shocking frost flaming kama will do far more damage than an unarmed strike.) ok, point, you hit more often, but also realize that most of the monsters dont have this AC, only the NPC's (( which I would fight most, so that adds to your point, but let me finish )). you are assuming that everything is mechanic and follows a certain patern, rolls of dice are not predictable. you cant say that youll hit X % of the time. I know from exp, I have had a die never roll above 9 (( cept 4 times )) in an entire session, then the next one, it never rolled below 12 (( cept twice when it was a 1 and 5 )). so you cant say X percent of the time, its not reliable. sure, its a good argument, but i never base anything on percentiles for how random they are, but maybe thats just me. Face it, you can't defend unarmed strike as a main attack, and your general snottiness only adds savor to my complete and utter demolition of your feeble attempts to argue. Yes I can, if nothing else, I say it is based on one main point, one that even YOU would agree is valid, role play value. It sure does look more impressive to beat the doo out of said BBEG that using weapons, one of those "with me bare hands" things you know? and snottiness, I'll have you know I got out of that about a week ago and am quite healthy with no running snot to speak of, so there :) oh, and some "come back about the utter demolition being returned" or something like that.
Thorak 04-01-05, 10:00 AM	Or maybe not any money at all. Vow of Poverty anybody? At level 20, you're packing +5 magic weapons on anything you're carrying, and now YOU have DR as well :) Sure hope you're never attacked by a dragon, or anything else that's significant and can fly. The monk has no class means to fly, and probably doesn't have any racial means, and by taking VoP you're removed magical and mechanical means. VoP is worth about as much as the standard wealth in magical items. But they're items you don't pick. There's little variety, and you get screwed out of a lot of possibilities. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not nearly as good as some people make out. As for the debate between Deviston and Arioch; you guys are heading off on a tangent, and one that leads nowhere useful. Because the monk is, regardless of how it's class abilities appear, not focused on damage dealing. Sure, DR screws them pretty hard. So does the fact that they have lower HP, a 3/4 BAB, and really poor weapon choices. Most of the monk's vaunted abilities are trying to offset these already fundamental flaws; higher AC offsets lower HP, good unarmed damage makes up for crap weapons, Flurry tries to give you more chances to hit because your chance to hit is lower, etc, etc. I'm not saying monks are a bad class. They're just not primarily combatants. Compared to the other PHB classes, the only ones it beats out in combat, IMHO, are the Wizard, Sorceror, Bard, and arguably Rogue. That puts them solidly in the half of classes worst at melee combat. The monk's advantages are twofold; all high saves, and fast movement. They're caster-killers. Using them as front-line combatants isn't using them for what they're designed for, and their abilities help out even less than those of clerics or druids in this regard.
Deviston 04-01-05, 10:51 AM	:: slumps in chair, arms folded across chest and pis-sed off face :: Crud man!! I was enjoying that! . . . but you do have a 100% point . . . crud . . . well, no, that won't work. Ergh thorak, foiled my diabolical plans again . . . i would hate to have you as a nemesis in any campaign, you seem to be exactly that to me, d a m n thorak kryptonaite. Oh well, I admit defeat when defeet is at the end of my ankle (( got it ? de feet ? )) Take care all, I think this thread is done, no more basting, take it out-o the oven and serve for the masses, Laters!! :: END SUBSCRIPTION ::
Count Arioch the 28th 04-01-05, 12:42 PM	ok, point, you hit more often, but also realize that most of the monsters dont have this AC, only the NPC's (( which I would fight most, so that adds to your point, but let me finish )). you are assuming that everything is mechanic and follows a certain patern, rolls of dice are not predictable. you cant say that youll hit X % of the time. I know from exp, I have had a die never roll above 9 (( cept 4 times )) in an entire session, then the next one, it never rolled below 12 (( cept twice when it was a 1 and 5 )). so you cant say X percent of the time, its not reliable. sure, its a good argument, but i never base anything on percentiles for how random they are, but maybe thats just me. Alright, a few things point out: 1. Right, monsters don't have AC 30 at level 20. They have ACs in the mid to upper 40's, but since either monk in my example could only hit AC 40 on a natural 20, I used a lower number. (Didn't want to prove the point that monks are complete crap at high levels, although that is generally accepted as true.) And if the NPCs don't have AC at least in the mid 30's, then the DM isn't trying hard enough, NPCs have it much easier getting AC than monsters, despite their lack of natural AC. (In most cases.) 2. Yes I can say a certain percentage of the time. Die rolls are (mostly) random. (I say mostly because soemtimes inperfection in the casting process can alter the rolls somewhat. But that's neither here nor there.) If you roll a d20 a thousand times, you will roll 1 fifty times, 2 fifty times, and so forth. (It may vary a bit, but the more you roll the die, the more likely you are to get all numbers evenly.) If you roll low every time, then either your die is busted, and therefore invalid, or you are rolling it improper, which also invalidates your personal experience. That being said, you will have an occasional night where you roll low every time, and occasionally you'll have a night where you roll high. However, a few dozen die rolls can easily be skewed, when you roll in the thousands, or hundreds of thousands, you will see a homogenous mix of numbers. Again, you miss the point. Numerically, weapons are better for a monk than unarmed striked, despite the higher base damage. That has been proven on these boards tiem and time again, and you are doing nothing to refute it but wasting our time with unscientific and poorly-spelled rantings.
CowGoMoo 04-04-05, 12:00 AM	"Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)" Besides the fairly serious dispel vulnerability, there's nothing keeping a monk from having inexpensive Permanent +5 unarmed strikes, is there? That said, how many spells would you say are needed? Because a monk is deemed to be using his whole body when attacking, do you need to cast it on both arms, both legs, and his head? More? Less?
Count Arioch the 28th 04-04-05, 12:13 AM	You chould cast it once and that would be enough. If you cast it on the monks "unarmed strike", then it doesn't matter where, all the monks attacks are considered the same. (As opposed to a lion, which has claws and a bite, which have different properties.) However, as a DM, I have a tendancy to have my spellcasting bad guys cast dispel magic if they see any buffs running the first round of combat through the use of spellcraft checks. Perhaps if you were fighting non-spellcasting bad guys then it would be a good choice. And casting magic weapon still doesn't technically help the monk overcome DR, as he already has the ability to penetrate DR magic.
Pinky's brain 04-04-05, 09:55 AM	Which is exactly why unarmed strikes should have no off-hand attacks IMO.
starwed 04-04-05, 10:53 AM	TWF in no way requires you to make off-hand attacks. It only requires you to have a weapon in your off hand. A monk's class feature doesn't mean they lose their left hand... ^_^
Codo 04-04-05, 11:18 AM	Which is exactly why unarmed strikes should have no off-hand attacks IMO. Why? OK, I drop my weapon and suddenly my other hand is useless? But if I pick the weapon up again, my off-hand is perfectly usable... That makes no sense at all. The PHB contradicts itself, one place saying there is no off-hand unarmed, but another place saying that an unarmed attack is considered a light weapon for two-weapon fighting. Fortunatly, the FAQ has apparently cleared this up and said Unarmed can off-hand. I fully agree with this ruling. Sure, some people may complain that a 1st level monk can make 3 attacks in a round. But you are paying for that capability with a serious penalty to accuracy. But why shouldn't unarmed get off hand, or off foot, or off knee, or off elbow, or even off head butt. The point is, a person using unarmed attack has a lot more potential weapons than someone using manufactured weapons in their hands....so if 1st level fighter could make an off hand attack with a pair of swords, why can't a monk swing both fists, and add a kick into the mix? Personally, I would allow anybody to use unarmed damage as an off hand attack. If that fighter drops his second weapon and doesn't want to 2H his sword, swing the sword and a fist (sure, it might only be non-lethal damage, but it'll help drop a mob).