20 vs 20 [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

20 vs 20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SharsDarkestMinion
01-19-04, 11:17 AM ive seen too many "who would win: a 20th lvl sor or wiz? who would win: a 20th lvl wiz or fit?"
just for the something different, i propose another challenge:
who would win the following fights if both contestants were lvl 20?
cleric or druid?
psion or wizard?
monk or paladin?

my votes:
druid if he fought in useful terrain
wizard due to the adaptability factor
paladin due to his tankability and spells
...but i havent put much thought into these, just sort of a hunch.
does anybody else have an opinion?
Ertai Planeswalker
01-19-04, 11:35 AM These whole class vs class thing is pointless. The classes are designed to work together, not against each other.
Pixieboy
01-19-04, 11:40 AM Lol..
Actually they were designed to work together against each other..
adiaven
01-19-04, 12:38 PM prepared in advance, with knowledge of who/what he/she is fighting?

Probably the wizard wins. A well made ranger or rogue *might* be able to kill a prepared wizard in a arena duel, since there are no magical ways to get past the hide skill.

2 characters dumped in an arena with no prior planning:

My money is on the good aligned cleric. He/she has more staying power than the other classes...
paolung
01-19-04, 12:48 PM i go with the monk (with improved disarm) over the paladin.
BenjCano
01-19-04, 01:00 PM Originally posted by adiaven
Probably the wizard wins. A well made ranger or rogue *might* be able to kill a prepared wizard in a arena duel, since there are no magical ways to get past the hide skill.

Glitterdust and Darkvision.
Psifon
01-19-04, 02:10 PM The wizard wins.

Any wizard at 20th level worth his salt will bring a wall of force (or similar spell, that will buy him the time he needs to buff up. That's it for all the other classes. Game over.
quaiven
01-19-04, 02:29 PM The wizard wins.

Did anyone bother to read the original post. It wasn't Wizard vs Everyone else. There were three separate matches,

cleric or druid?
psion or wizard?
monk or paladin?

can we get something more than just..

The wizard wins

What about the other matches?

For myself,
Druid vs Cleric...Depends on the terrain and whether or not the animal companion is present.
Psion vs Wizard...Don't own the Psionic Books, and never liked the psi classes or powers, so I'll go with Wizard by default.
Paladin vs Monk...Tough call, if the Paladin has time to buff then he's got it, whether the Monk has Improved Disarm or not, plenty of ways to counter Improved Disarm.
mercurywyrm
01-19-04, 02:46 PM Originally posted by adiaven
prepared in advance, with knowledge of who/what he/she is fighting?

Probably the wizard wins. A well made ranger or rogue *might* be able to kill a prepared wizard in a arena duel, since there are no magical ways to get past the hide skill.

2 characters dumped in an arena with no prior planning:

My money is on the good aligned cleric. He/she has more staying power than the other classes...
Yes there is, look at the spells more carfully. I am sure you will find some surprising stuff!
mercurywyrm
01-19-04, 02:50 PM These threads work better if the arena and characters are fully statted out. And although the classes aren't indended for this it sure is fun to do stuff like this with them! So don't complain that they aren't inteneded for this because that isn't the point. And don't ask which would win unless you have concrete character examples, anyone could win because each character is built differently and played differently. Also the druid could probably use magic to MAKE the arena benifit him.:smirk:
quaiven
01-19-04, 03:16 PM OK..How's this?

Use the premade NPC's in the DMG.
The Arena, is a duplicate of the Coliseum in Rome.
One minute of preparation time prior to the match.

Now the real question is do we allow things like Animal Companions, Cohorts, Followers, and Mounts?

I recommend no, so it can be a true one on one match.

What do ya think?
BlaineTog
01-19-04, 03:47 PM Originally posted by quaiven
Now the real question is do we allow things like Animal Companions, Cohorts, Followers, and Mounts?
Not cohorts, but anything granted by a class feature should be allowed. It's not just testing one-on-one but the power of a class vs. the power of a class. Taking away the animal companion rips some of the power out without compensating.
quaiven
01-19-04, 07:55 PM I agree, but what about the fighter that specializes in mounted combat. Deny his mount, and you're nerfing a bunch of his feats.
fractal
01-19-04, 08:08 PM Originally posted by quaiven
I agree, but what about the fighter that specializes in mounted combat. Deny his mount, and you're nerfing a bunch of his feats.
As long as you make him spend his wealth to buy the mount, I see nothing wrong with that.

It would probably be better not to select a powerful offensive mount, however.
BenjCano
01-19-04, 08:13 PM If you're talking about non-magical mounts bought at a horse-trader (or wherever), then it doesn't make any less sense to exclude it than to exclude his Handy Haversack. For simplicity's sake, it's another piece of equipment.

I'm for allowing familiars, special mounts, and animal companions, but not cohorts or followers.
BlaineTog
01-19-04, 08:15 PM Originally posted by quaiven
I agree, but what about the fighter that specializes in mounted combat. Deny his mount, and you're nerfing a bunch of his feats. I never thought of that. That sounds fine, but my main concern would be a Cohort/followers (which WOULD be unbalanced).
Mitchell
01-19-04, 09:58 PM Originally posted by paolung
i go with the monk (with improved disarm) over the paladin.

I go with the paladin, because he has a locked gauntlet, hindering disarm, and the monk is lawful evil, so the paladin will have himself a smite-fest.
This goes a long way as to proving the uselessness of such open-ended x vs. y debates.
ManTimeForgot
01-20-04, 01:39 AM Cleric versus druid? That would depend on the terrain, the range between the two, how many buff spells are allowed per person (if any), and whether or not the cleric is a melee cleric or a cleric archer. Miracle is ridiculous. So is shapechange.

Wizard versus Psion? First off what type of Psion? Secondly, this will not be an easy match no matter what way you shake it. Is the wizard specialized? What kind of saves do both parties have? I mean getting the psion into 3.5 is pretty difficult. Dissolution in 3.0 was a double strength disintegate. Does this mean dissolution should be 4d6/level in damage? Id be inclined to say that one dissolution means instant death for the wizad then. The psion is pretty screwed in terms of versatility though. The psion needs way too many high stats, and has lower damage spells. Though if you use the mind's eye stuff I can make a psion which absolutely blasts the crap out of stuff np. Temporal velocity (maybe as a spell like ability so it is free) (extended) plus trigger power (ectopuppet) plus the prestige class which makes you an uber constructor, then get extended construction, and basically you get 6d4 rounds in which you can summon free 9th level summons, which are all beefed to high he!!. I mean this really could depend almost entirely on who goes first, since both could bust out some form of extreme cheese, and if the matches take place at range with time, then neither is going to win because of some esoteric invincibility cheese that either side can do.

Paladin versus Monk? What alignment is the monk? The monk does have to deal with the paladin's mount, and the monk doesn't quite have the damage dealing capacity the paladin has. A paladin with a locked gauntlet I think is a lost cause for the monk, especially if the monk is evil.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
Mr. Fahrenheit
01-20-04, 02:37 AM The monk would simply own the paladin if the monk was an optimized grappler. I mean with all sources available like Quintessential monk for Earth Dragon Wrestling. While grappling as a Huge character, the monk would crush him like an insect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SharsDarkestMinion 01-19-04, 11:17 AM	ive seen too many "who would win: a 20th lvl sor or wiz? who would win: a 20th lvl wiz or fit?" just for the something different, i propose another challenge: who would win the following fights if both contestants were lvl 20? cleric or druid? psion or wizard? monk or paladin? my votes: druid if he fought in useful terrain wizard due to the adaptability factor paladin due to his tankability and spells ...but i havent put much thought into these, just sort of a hunch. does anybody else have an opinion?
Ertai Planeswalker 01-19-04, 11:35 AM	These whole class vs class thing is pointless. The classes are designed to work together, not against each other.
Pixieboy 01-19-04, 11:40 AM	Lol.. Actually they were designed to work together against each other..
adiaven 01-19-04, 12:38 PM	prepared in advance, with knowledge of who/what he/she is fighting? Probably the wizard wins. A well made ranger or rogue might be able to kill a prepared wizard in a arena duel, since there are no magical ways to get past the hide skill. 2 characters dumped in an arena with no prior planning: My money is on the good aligned cleric. He/she has more staying power than the other classes...
paolung 01-19-04, 12:48 PM	i go with the monk (with improved disarm) over the paladin.
BenjCano 01-19-04, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by adiaven Probably the wizard wins. A well made ranger or rogue might be able to kill a prepared wizard in a arena duel, since there are no magical ways to get past the hide skill. Glitterdust and Darkvision.
Psifon 01-19-04, 02:10 PM	The wizard wins. Any wizard at 20th level worth his salt will bring a wall of force (or similar spell, that will buy him the time he needs to buff up. That's it for all the other classes. Game over.
quaiven 01-19-04, 02:29 PM	The wizard wins. Did anyone bother to read the original post. It wasn't Wizard vs Everyone else. There were three separate matches, cleric or druid? psion or wizard? monk or paladin? can we get something more than just.. The wizard wins What about the other matches? For myself, Druid vs Cleric...Depends on the terrain and whether or not the animal companion is present. Psion vs Wizard...Don't own the Psionic Books, and never liked the psi classes or powers, so I'll go with Wizard by default. Paladin vs Monk...Tough call, if the Paladin has time to buff then he's got it, whether the Monk has Improved Disarm or not, plenty of ways to counter Improved Disarm.
mercurywyrm 01-19-04, 02:46 PM	Originally posted by adiaven prepared in advance, with knowledge of who/what he/she is fighting? Probably the wizard wins. A well made ranger or rogue might be able to kill a prepared wizard in a arena duel, since there are no magical ways to get past the hide skill. 2 characters dumped in an arena with no prior planning: My money is on the good aligned cleric. He/she has more staying power than the other classes... Yes there is, look at the spells more carfully. I am sure you will find some surprising stuff!
mercurywyrm 01-19-04, 02:50 PM	These threads work better if the arena and characters are fully statted out. And although the classes aren't indended for this it sure is fun to do stuff like this with them! So don't complain that they aren't inteneded for this because that isn't the point. And don't ask which would win unless you have concrete character examples, anyone could win because each character is built differently and played differently. Also the druid could probably use magic to MAKE the arena benifit him.:smirk:
quaiven 01-19-04, 03:16 PM	OK..How's this? Use the premade NPC's in the DMG. The Arena, is a duplicate of the Coliseum in Rome. One minute of preparation time prior to the match. Now the real question is do we allow things like Animal Companions, Cohorts, Followers, and Mounts? I recommend no, so it can be a true one on one match. What do ya think?
BlaineTog 01-19-04, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by quaiven Now the real question is do we allow things like Animal Companions, Cohorts, Followers, and Mounts? Not cohorts, but anything granted by a class feature should be allowed. It's not just testing one-on-one but the power of a class vs. the power of a class. Taking away the animal companion rips some of the power out without compensating.
quaiven 01-19-04, 07:55 PM	I agree, but what about the fighter that specializes in mounted combat. Deny his mount, and you're nerfing a bunch of his feats.
fractal 01-19-04, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by quaiven I agree, but what about the fighter that specializes in mounted combat. Deny his mount, and you're nerfing a bunch of his feats. As long as you make him spend his wealth to buy the mount, I see nothing wrong with that. It would probably be better not to select a powerful offensive mount, however.
BenjCano 01-19-04, 08:13 PM	If you're talking about non-magical mounts bought at a horse-trader (or wherever), then it doesn't make any less sense to exclude it than to exclude his Handy Haversack. For simplicity's sake, it's another piece of equipment. I'm for allowing familiars, special mounts, and animal companions, but not cohorts or followers.
BlaineTog 01-19-04, 08:15 PM	Originally posted by quaiven I agree, but what about the fighter that specializes in mounted combat. Deny his mount, and you're nerfing a bunch of his feats. I never thought of that. That sounds fine, but my main concern would be a Cohort/followers (which WOULD be unbalanced).
Mitchell 01-19-04, 09:58 PM	Originally posted by paolung i go with the monk (with improved disarm) over the paladin. I go with the paladin, because he has a locked gauntlet, hindering disarm, and the monk is lawful evil, so the paladin will have himself a smite-fest. This goes a long way as to proving the uselessness of such open-ended x vs. y debates.
ManTimeForgot 01-20-04, 01:39 AM	Cleric versus druid? That would depend on the terrain, the range between the two, how many buff spells are allowed per person (if any), and whether or not the cleric is a melee cleric or a cleric archer. Miracle is ridiculous. So is shapechange. Wizard versus Psion? First off what type of Psion? Secondly, this will not be an easy match no matter what way you shake it. Is the wizard specialized? What kind of saves do both parties have? I mean getting the psion into 3.5 is pretty difficult. Dissolution in 3.0 was a double strength disintegate. Does this mean dissolution should be 4d6/level in damage? Id be inclined to say that one dissolution means instant death for the wizad then. The psion is pretty screwed in terms of versatility though. The psion needs way too many high stats, and has lower damage spells. Though if you use the mind's eye stuff I can make a psion which absolutely blasts the crap out of stuff np. Temporal velocity (maybe as a spell like ability so it is free) (extended) plus trigger power (ectopuppet) plus the prestige class which makes you an uber constructor, then get extended construction, and basically you get 6d4 rounds in which you can summon free 9th level summons, which are all beefed to high he!!. I mean this really could depend almost entirely on who goes first, since both could bust out some form of extreme cheese, and if the matches take place at range with time, then neither is going to win because of some esoteric invincibility cheese that either side can do. Paladin versus Monk? What alignment is the monk? The monk does have to deal with the paladin's mount, and the monk doesn't quite have the damage dealing capacity the paladin has. A paladin with a locked gauntlet I think is a lost cause for the monk, especially if the monk is evil. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Mr. Fahrenheit 01-20-04, 02:37 AM	The monk would simply own the paladin if the monk was an optimized grappler. I mean with all sources available like Quintessential monk for Earth Dragon Wrestling. While grappling as a Huge character, the monk would crush him like an insect.